DOE Report on Cold Fusion 368
thhamm writes "The DOE Report on Cold Fusion (mentioned here too) is out. Take a look at it on the DOE Website. Well, looks like there is nothing really new since Pons & Fleischmann in 1989, because "While significant progress has been made in the sophistication of calorimeters since the review of this subject in 1989, the conclusions reached by the reviewers today are similar to those found in the 1989 review.""
Can't be more appropriate (Score:5, Funny)
Not so fast (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not so fast (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Insightful)
An old school example of this from my field (Aerospace):
In the early 40s many Aerospace scientists and engineers believed that we would never be able to break the speed of sound because one of the equations that was used to calculate drag predicted that it would approach infinity as the speed approached Mach 1. To oppose a
Re:Not so fast (Score:5, Informative)
That tale is one of those "Aren't we smarter than those self-important authorities" homilies that are as persistent as herpes. It's on a par with "19th century scientists opposed railroad development because they believed you couldn't breathe at 20 mph"...which is very popular among folks who've never been outside in a gale or ridden the animal I alluded to in the first sentence above.
rj
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Informative)
Ok, if you need a more authoritative source how about John Anderson, Curator for Aerodynamics at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum? He discussed that very example in an aerospace textbook. His characterization was basically the same as what I wrote.
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but yes some did. I provided a published source. Anderson knew the community at the time and is greatly respected in the Aerospace industry today. I don't believe he is a liar. I agree it's absurd. But scientists in the middle ages believed that the sun revolved around the earth. That was absurd too.
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Informative)
The difference (Score:3, Insightful)
Once this happens the only means of progress is by waiting for the old guardians of the faith to die of old age, or by shooting them earlier. The "sound barrier" had the magical authority of an equation behind it, "natu
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
Exactly. I was merely stating that some (obviously misguided) engineers had postulated that a theoretical problem existed where none did.
Ok here you go (Score:5, Insightful)
Sound barrier:
"The term sound barrier is often associated with supersonic flight. In particular, "breaking the sound barrier" is the process of accelerating through Mach 1 and going from subsonic to supersonic speeds. The term originated in the 1940s when researchers discovered a large increase in drag that seemed to indicate that an infinite amount of thrust would be needed to fly at the speed of sound. In other words, some believed that a physical barrier existed that would prevent an aircraft from ever being able to travel at supersonic speeds. Since there obviously is no such barrier, the term sound barrier is outdated and really should not be used any more. Nevertheless, it has become a popular part of the human language, and continues in use."
Obviously the people who believed this were using flawed methods of reasoning. However, claiming there were none who thought this way is simply denying history. The Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] has a good synopsis. Yes the fact that bullets were known to travel at supersonic velocities should have clued these people in as to the errors in their equations. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in another reply, scientists sometimes choose to ignore factual data that contradicts their preferred theories.
Re:Not so fast (Score:4, Informative)
Nope, not an urban legend. In fact that's how the term "sound barrier" first came into use. Some felt it was a barrier that could not be surpassed.
Bullets and other objects were well known to travel supersonically; they clearly didn't experience any "infinite drag" when passing through the sound barrier. Why, then, should a much more aerodynamic aircraft?
It's a different type of drag. There is more than one type. The predicted infinite drag was wave drag (this becomes significant for airfoils at supersonic speeds). A bullet experiences mostly pressure drag as it is a blunt object. Pressure drag and wave drag are not governed by the same equations.
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
So, ummm, you can reduce the supersonic drag of an object by making it blunter?
rj
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
Drag forces on a bullet are not the same as on an airfoil.
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
I agree. However, some scientists have a tendency to ignore factual data that contradicts their theories. I'm not exactly sure what causes this. It could be an ego thing (if their theory is proven wrong then they become irrelevant), or it could be an over-reliance on mathematical methods (if the equation says so then it MUST be true), or it could be something else.
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
Re:Antigravity (Score:4, Insightful)
Or they just don't work. Frankly if such a thing was possible in the 60s or 70s wouldn't you think that Russia or China would be using antigravity to get ahead of the US? or do you think they are in on it as well. There where lots of outlandish ideas in the 40s 50s and even 60s. I have some books that talk about atomic airliners that use iron vapor for a reaction mass. Underground cities to protect them from atomic bombs. And the atomic car that never need gas... Wow it must be hard to live in a world where you are sure that these marvels are being hidden from you...
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Informative)
Ummm... once fission was discovered, it was only a couple of years before the first working nuclear reactor was assembled. During that time, there really wasn't much doubt about what was going on or how much energy could potentially be released. Experiments showed clear evidence of fission reactions, and theoretical calculations matched the experimental data.
OTOH it's been well over a decade since this col
Re:Not so fast (Score:2)
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Interesting)
His claim didn't convince everyone. Many think he did his best and failed.
This controversy is the topic of the play "Copenhagen". If it plays in your city do yourself a favor and go and see it.
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Informative)
The first fission experiments were conducted by Fermi in the early 30s. It took over a decade for fission to produce any practical application and during that time there were differences of opinion within the scientific community about whether it ever would.
I'm not trying to imply that cold fusion will ultimately have the same benefits, because it may not. I'm just saying that it often takes a while for science to realize the merit of new ideas.
Re:Not so fast (Score:4, Insightful)
Once fission itself was discovered, a critical nuclear reactor was constructed only three years later, and nuclear bombs only six years later.
The analogy between fission and cold fusion is very poor. Fission was a a clear cut, easily demonstrated physical phenomenon. It had an intuitive explanation (using the liquid drop model of the nucleus) that violated no known physical laws. Once the news got out physicists all over the place were confirming it within days. The application to large scale release of energy was immediately obvious. Cold fusion is murky, quirky, irreplicable, and almost certainly some combination of experimental errors, incompetence, and outright fraud.
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not like we should expect results immediately, and if there's some kind of unexplained effect occu
Re:Not so fast (Score:3, Interesting)
The result? Rates are undetectably low, many orders of magnitude too low to explain the putative results.
But it's actually worse, since once fusion occurs the result (in the sense of the fusion products produced) should be independent of how the nuclei got together (for a given excitation energy). This me
ColdFusion? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ColdFusion? (Score:2, Funny)
In Korea, only old people <do/use/are something>.
So in this case, it would be
In Korea, only old people use cold fusion.
or perhaps
In Korea, only old people are pedantic [google.com].
Re:ColdFusion? (Score:2, Funny)
Slashdot story summary gets it right (Score:4, Funny)
How about the Department of Fish and Game releasing their report on Bigfoot? That coming soon?
Long live the true scientist! (Score:4, Insightful)
We salute you!
Re:Long live the true scientist! (Score:3, Insightful)
So it seems like the final opinion is that the field should be taken out of the scientific "dog house" and allowed back into the mainstream of peer-reviewed research. Admirable. The true test of a theory should not be how crazy it sounds, or how ridiculed it is in the popular press. Rather, we should consider all research with care
Did you actually read the report? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm sorry (Score:5, Funny)
Oh dear!
Cold fusion here!
Re:I'm sorry (Score:2)
How could you leave that out? It fits with the theme!
Bah (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bah (Score:2)
Re:Bah (Score:2, Informative)
Add three more zeros at the end and you'd start to be in the right ballpark.
Re:Bah (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Bah (Score:2)
You might say I'm crazy, but I say I'm probably not going to invent cold fusion anyway.
Re:Bah (Score:2)
Yeah and they can go for this while they're at it (Score:2)
Surprise! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, you mean Sonoluminescence (Score:2, Interesting)
I first read about this (sonoluminescence - putting ultrasound into specially prepared water in a spherical beaker causes a small bubble in it to emit light) in the February, 1995 issue of Scientific American. In the column The Amateur Scientist, it tells how to do it. It is quite an interesting phenomenon with no good explanation of what c
Re:Surprise! (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering how Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize before he did anything most people have ever heard of today, I'd have to say you have no idea what you're talking about.
Re:Surprise! (Score:2, Insightful)
http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/4/8
i think that chemists have faced this kind of issue more than physicists have, since the entire history of chemistry shows a familiar story: something is thought impossible because of some previously unknown physical process. i am not saying that this means tha
Re:Surprise! (Score:2)
Titanium foil hats (Score:5, Funny)
In moments like these I'm glad I bought the tin foil hat and not the more luxurious titanium one.
Got to wonder (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Got to wonder (Score:2)
Oil isn't used much for electricity production if that's what you mean. IIRC, Coal and nuclear each are used to produce more electricity than oil.
I think that it would be silly to completely abandon fusion, it would be best to try to keep research going for just about every current and promising technology to improve them.
Re:Got to wonder (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Got to wonder (Score:2)
Re:Got to wonder (Score:3, Insightful)
Even with the relatively small budget, fusion has made enormous strides over the past several decades. Relevant plasma parameters have improved by many orders of magnitude. Fusion energy output in reactors has increased even more (at a rate putting Moore's law to shame). Understanding of plasma behavior has massively advanced. Computers a
Re:Got to wonder (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Got to wonder (Score:2)
The GP post was serious. Cowpies are actually a very useful source of heating fuel. Just vent the chimney outside, thank you.
What a nothing document. (Score:5, Informative)
The "conclusion" is in this PDF document: Looks like it's a mixed bag. Apparently 1/3rd of the reviewers were very intrigued by the new results [and at least one reviewer was convinced].
Funding recommendations are similarly indecisive:
Re:What a nothing document. (Score:3, Informative)
Some excerpts (Score:5, Informative)
Two-thirds of the reviewers commenting on Charge Element 1 did not feel the evidence was conclusive for low energy nuclear reactions, one found the evidence convincing, and the remainder indicated they were somewhat convinced. Many reviewers noted that poor experiment design, documentation, background control and other similar issues hampered the understanding and interpretation of the results presented.
Charge Element 2: Determine whether the evidence is sufficiently conclusive to demonstrate that such nuclear reactions occur.
The preponderance of the reviewers' evaluations indicated that Charge Element 2, the occurrence of low energy nuclear reactions, is not conclusively demonstrated by the evidence presented. One reviewer believed that the occurrence was demonstrated, and several reviewers did not address the question.
Charge Element 3: Determine whether there is a scientific case for continued efforts in these studies and, if so, to identify the most promising areas to be pursued.
The nearly unanimous opinion of the reviewers was that funding agencies should entertain individual, well-designed proposals for experiments that address specific scientific issues relevant to the question of whether or not there is anomalous energy production in Pd/D systems, or whether or not D-D fusion reactions occur at energies on the order of a few eV. These proposals should meet accepted scientific standards, and undergo the rigors of peer review. No reviewer recommended a focused federally funded program for low energy nuclear reactions.
Putting it in prospective (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe one day this cold fusion nonsense would lead to progress in something - maybe calorimeters... I'm an optimist - so shoot me :)
[critical subject] (Score:5, Funny)
[faulty logic]
[hope for future advancement]
Thank god for cold fusion (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Thank god for cold fusion (Score:2)
Hardly. When we say "cold fusion," we mean "cold as compared to how fusion normally is," like "colder than the surface of the sun" or "colder than an exploding hydrogen bomb." By those standards you could stick your head in an oven and still be "cold."
One of the nice things (Score:3, Informative)
The Answer's Been Available for 12 Years (Score:4, Interesting)
mad scientist (Score:4, Interesting)
Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:3, Informative)
I wish I had a mod point right about now. Repeat after me: "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
To fuse any nuclei one has to provide enough kinetic energy to them (ie heat) to surpass the electromagnetic repulsion barrier that exists due to their positive charge.
Cold fusion rests on the belief that an environment exists in which this energy barrier is reduced in magnitude, allowing for two slow-moving nuclei to fuse.
I'm putting my money on the fact that such an environment would requir
Re:Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember, according to standard nuclear physics, the deuterium should not be doing anything either. So, what is there to forbid and H-H reaction? It would have to be something like,
H + H = D+ positron
OR
H + H + electron = D + Energy
Where the energy is released into the lattice as a whole, which is one of the better CF theories out there, imho. If we don't know how s
Re:Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cold Fusion never happened, period. (Score:4, Informative)
excerpts since server overloaded (Score:5, Funny)
It's official: I've been working too much (Score:2)
I saw some of this presented at APS last year (Score:4, Insightful)
DOE would have no interest in CF (Score:3, Interesting)
Whether or not there is enough excess heat to be useful is one question. Whether there is nuclear transmutation is yet another. I've spent the past year doing research with Steven Jones at BYU, and in surveying the literature and conducting our own experiments, we've seen some very intriguing results. Sr + d -> Y, Zr, Mo. If you look at Japanese research, Iwamura has had Cs -> Pr, which is a rare earth and you DON'T get Cesium dropping in proportion to Pr's increase by any sort of environmental contamination. Especially not when it's in a sealed vacuum chamber with d2 gas permeation through the metal complex (Pa, CaO) the Cs is deposited on.
There's data from a Japanese researcher (Ikegami) in Sweden (University of Uppsala) who has found that with deuterium ion beams at various target metals, the nuclear cross sectional area for capture increases dramatically at 10 keV and just gets larger the lower you get. He wasn't even doing CF research, but it's quite interesting to see that you don't require enormous energies in order to achieve d+Z transmutation.
Perhaps at this point it would be smart to realize that foreign researcher are leaving us in the dust. Myself, I have real doubts about the usefulness of any supposed excess heat, but low energy nuclear transmutation has a lot of intriguing stuff. At the very least, we need to look at the effect of electronic structures in metal lattices on the coulomb barrier for d+Z reactions. In Iwamura's experiments, for example, he got null results when he did it without CaO, when he used H2 instead of D2, etc. What did the addition (in thin film deposition) of an impurity like CaO do to enable a reaction that straight palladium couldn't do?
Anyway, yeah, there's SOMETHING going on.
Re:DOE would have no interest in CF (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh ? Nuclear fusion is interesting, but the basic mechanisms are known. Right now it's more R&D than fundamental research - frontier of technology more than frontier of science.
OTOH, whoever comes first in actually demonstrating cold fusion will probably set the new record for the quickest Nobel prize ever (remember, Nobel priz
There's Still Hope! (Score:3, Funny)
Half the reviewers found the studies convincing. (Score:3, Interesting)
There were no new experiments done. Scientists selected by the Department of Energy simply did a peer review of several experiments which had been done over the past ten years by various labs.
18 scientists were selected to review the collected studies.
According to the report. .
So basically, the jury is split. And if the DOE's sampling of experts is a fair yard stick, then it would seem that when the question is put forth, about half the scientific community would say that there is compelling evidence supporting Cold Fusion. --And given the massive bias and fear related with the subject, (where scientists do not want to be associated with unpopular theories for fear of losing their jobs and professional credibility), the results of this peer review are especially intriguing.
In any case, this is a rather different picture than the one usually painted around here where most Slashdotters foam at the mouth and yell absurdities about it being impossible to get something from nothing, despite the fact that there was never once made any such claim regarding Cold Fusion.
Re:This is a real shame (Score:4, Insightful)
While the theory of fusion seems great, fission is possible now and should be explored further. If we are ever to move to a hydrogen economy, we'll have to start soon and we can't wait for fusion.
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2, Interesting)
That is obviously why fusion research is so very important, if/when the breakthrough is achieved we'll have almost unlimited amounts of fuel.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Problem is there arn't any sources of energy that are both available in large quantities anywhere you want to produce it, and also plentiful for the forseeable future that I know of.
I think you should add the phrase 'and that is economically converted to useful energy'.
Solar energy is available in large quantities (yes, I've done the calculations to figure out how much area you'd need to supply 100% of US energy, either electric or total, from solar power; it's a lot in human terms, but a small percent
Re:This is a real shame (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
But some secondary uranium ores are surprisingly toxic. Gulag prisoners knew that being shipped to uranium mine was sure death from poisoning within few months.
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
(Yes, I am pro fission, but as far as I could tell it is not much of a long time solution.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Re:U308? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
I'd like to see fusion reactors, but they may prove too costly for common use for a long time even after the syst
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Most oil discovered in recent years is under one km. of ocean and the discovery rate is much less than consumption (which is growing exponentially).
So pray for cold fusion.
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
What, you mean standing in the sunlight? Or are you referring to solar cells and/or wind turbines? Or just eating vegetables?
Are you aware of someone using fusion in a more effective way? Because I sure would like to know about it...
Re:This is a real shame (Score:2)
Re:Pfff (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Inaccurate report (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I don't believe that any hot fusion scientist full