Coast Guard to Track Ships Using Buoys 262
nomrniceguy writes "The Coast Guard plans to use dozens of buoys off the U.S. coast to extend the reach of a security system that monitors large vessels heading in and out of ports. The buoys are intended to extend the network's reach -- the Guard now receives the automated data only when a vessel is within about 25 miles of a port. The floating transmitters will relay the information from hundreds of miles off shore, from the middle of Lake Superior and off coastlines from Alaska to Maine."
And other than make somebody rich... (Score:2)
Re:And other than make somebody rich... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:And other than make somebody rich... (Score:3, Insightful)
And, as another poster indicates, radar and other surveilance will be looking, too. And ships seen out at those distances without the transponders will stick out like a sore thumb, and invite immediate (and armed) visits from the Coasties.
Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:5, Insightful)
All it takes is a single terrorist with a small plane or a small boat laden with explosives. The USS Cole disaster would be a minor inconvenience in comparison to the economic and environmental disaster caused by a supertanker being blown apart in or near a U.S. port.
If the attack were cooridinated and a number of US ports were attacked in this manner at the same time, the consiquences to the American economy would be disasterous. It could make the importation of oil grind to a halt for long enough to cause oil prices to sky-rocket and our economy to suffer.
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2, Flamebait)
If this... if that.... The government certainly has you singing to their tune with the war on terror. Sigh.
If terrorists were to attack, do you not think they would of done it by now? They'll certainly do it now, now that safeguards are in place. Besides, didn't the US remove the big terrorist powerhouse that was Iraq?
Attacking a Supertanker would incur the wrath of other nations and private enterprises, why get them involved now, why give the US real allies which makes your life harder. Also if yo
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2, Troll)
Naa...we don't need better ID on airline passengers. Every hijacking has just resulted in landing somewhere, so we can storm the plane, and shoot or arrest them.
Naa...we don't need better security inspections on passengers getting on a plane. No one would ever think of putting explosives in his shoes.
Naa...we don't better security around public buildings. No one would ever think of blowing one of those u
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
You are right, we don't need better ID, not when the evil terrorists adhere to the current ID system without even trying to circumvent it, what you need is better proof checking.
Inspecting the passengers, yeah, because it'll only be them, not any of the staff, there're angels.
Security can't stop everything, it only limits the stupid people, not the determined ones.
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
And if the INS had been able to crosscheck with the FBI, CIA, and state DMV's, those 19 guys might have been found out earlier.
Inspecting the passengers, yeah, because it'll only be them, not any of the staff, there're angels.
Yes, of COURSE they're not checking the staff any closer. They are concentrating only on passengers. Right.
Security can't stop everything, it only limits the stupid people, not the determined ones
Exactly right. We have to be lucky every ti
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
What if Bush had read those security warnings a month before 9/11, that might of helped?
You'd be surprised, this was only proved otherwise when an undercover journalist (in the UK) managed to get a job as a simple cleaner and within a week plant a dummy bomb onboard a plane.
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
Why is it always a failing on the part of Bush? It's not like the planning for this started only after Bush got elected. And its not like nothing ever happened before Bush got elected.
Can it be done? Sure. Various people have proven that the security system has holes in it. The trick is to make it as hard as possible, without stepping on too many toes. The other trick is defining the number of toes to be stepped on.
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
And what exactly was the presentation to Pres Bush in Aug 2001? Some group is planning on hijacking some aircraft on a particular date and flying them into buildings? Doubtful. More along the lines of "So and so is determined to strike in the US in the near future."
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
Uh huh. You need to put down Moore's crackpipe. I prefer information a little less psychotic and profitable, and a little more bipartisan [9-11commission.gov].
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:2)
Re:Shipping is a very attractive target (Score:3, Insightful)
for fucks sake, when will people realize that terrorism is a phenomenon that seeks out weak points in a society, and that there is No safety from it, aside from addressing the cause... i.e. injustice (mixed in with whatever malicious radical banner thats used to rally normal people into irrational violence and sacrifice).
If we clamp down and do all this 'securing' of the arteries of the global economy, all we do is hamper growth. And that means the terrorists win.. because thats their goal: to impede norm
What happens when our enemies... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:5, Funny)
Ground to Seagull Missiles.
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:2)
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:2)
Just one step closer, and *foom!*
We're all on the same side here... (Score:5, Funny)
Let's not turn this into buoys vs. gulls.
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:2)
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:2)
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:2)
Re:What happens when our enemies... (Score:3, Funny)
What's the point? (Score:2)
Why new buoys? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why new buoys? (Score:5, Informative)
A passing ship will report to the buoy 'This is me'. That ID can be looked up in a database, of where it came from, who owns it, and what it (supposedly) carries. These new buoys extend that ID farther out.
As far as reusing the SOSUS buoys, a) what makes you think they are not still useful in their original role? and b) they are generally on the ocean floor to track subs. Not really useful for surface ships.
Re:Why new buoys? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Why new buoys? (Score:4, Informative)
So what this new array does is fill in some of the gaps.
Re:Why new buoys? (Score:2, Interesting)
Submerged detection equipment can't relay RF transponder codes - which is the whole point of this system. The SOSUS gear, though, is vital in helping the coastal defense folks in correlating the RF signatures and radar returns with expected/presented ship id info.
Re:Why new buoys? (Score:2, Insightful)
National Data Buoy Center (Score:2, Interesting)
This information can be found here [noaa.gov]
Re:National Data Buoy Center (Score:2)
International waters? (Score:4, Insightful)
If it is the 100mil mark, that would mean its *none* of their damned business where my boat is..
Why keep up this slow encroachment in the name of 'security' and just tag everyone/everything and get it over with? This is getting out of hand.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
But aside from the monitoring issue, since when do i have to follow the laws of one country when I'm in another?
The laws of the country I'm visiting wins out. Be them more strict, or loose... Claiming ' I'm from country xyz' wont get you very far..
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
There are lots of examples that are less contrived than this.
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
So when they get back, they once again fall under Singapore rules...
In a way you proved my point.. just backwards
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
Think of this as IFF and air traffic control for freighters. Doesn't a country have the right to know the identity of a large ship approaching its coastline?
OTOH (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OTOH (Score:2)
Not since president Nixon... (Score:2)
Besides, it's not like the Navy doesn't know where you are. It's just that their equipment is better hidden. Oh, and as far as "rights" out on the open ocean go you don't have any, as opposed to the captain of an aircraft carrier, who obviously does...
Duhh... (Score:2)
That's a pretty hard concept to get a pea brain around, especially when it's wrapped in tinfoil.
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
If you think this 100 mile thing is bad, then you must be against spy satellites too. This slow encroachment you speak of is well underway.
Re:International waters? (Score:4, Informative)
However, there are several other factors under international law.
First, the Exclusive Economic Zone extends to 200 nautical miles. In this zone, "[t]he coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, [and] take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention."
Second, international law does not merely permit, but requires countries to repress the slave trade, piracy, narcotics trafficing, and unauthorized broadcasting on the high seas (that is, the portion of the ocean outside of national jurisdiction).
Third, all ships on the high seas either fly the flag of a soverign nation and are subject to its laws, or are "without nationality" -- and in the latter case, they are subject to boarding by any state's warships at any time, the lack of nationality itself being sufficient reason.
None of this is new; the first is in the Convention of the Law of the Sea and goes back 25 years, while the international precedents for the second and third date to the ninteenth century and even earlier.
By the way, note that since piracy is, under the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea and other international precedents, "any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed . . . against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State", it would be piracy to shoot these buoys even if they were on the high seas instead of in the U.S.'s EEZ. At which point every nation on Earth is obligated to cooperate in your capture.
Re:International waters? (Score:2)
My impression was... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:My impression was... (Score:2)
Why -wouldn't- they be allowed to do this in international waters? Who's gonna complain?
Re:My impression was... (Score:2)
Re:My impression was... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:My impression was... (Score:2)
(1) I know, but the EEZ does not extend Internationa Waters limits, it only protects the rights of the nation holding the EEZ to exploitation rights, it does not grant full Territorial Waters rights to the 200mile extent. The US is not alone in claiming this 200mile EEZ.
(2) and (3) The 1989 International Convention On Salvage excludes international savlage
Re:My impression was... (Score:2)
Re:My impression was... (Score:2)
Belive it or not this is a good thing! (Score:5, Interesting)
This means that when you go boating and (god forbid) something happens, very little knowhow is required to start an emergency response You just push a little button on your radio and your GPS coordinates are transmitted to all vessels around you, including the Coast Guard and all vessels over 300 tons.
You do need to register to obtain an MMSI number [boatus.com] which will request your boat and personal information. This information is to be used in case of a Search and RESCUE which will hopefully not turn into a Search and RECOVERY. (the basic difference is if you need a medic or a coroner)
Yes there is a system that is similar using Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon [boatus.com] or EPIRB [uscg.gov]
The use of weather monitoring buoys as transmition monitors is a logical step to help coordinate rescue efforts. Yes it is also "Big Brother" watching us. This does not mean that it will restrict the rights of how commerce occurs, and may even expedite trade by making customs less intense. The cargo will already be partially identified, so when the government officials show up they know what to expect.
As a final note, private not-for-hire vessels are not required to carry ANY electronic OR electrical devices by any government. Yes, running lights are required on most vessels at night, but oil lamps have worked for centuries.
Just my $.02
Phil
Re:Belive it or not this is a good thing! (Score:2)
Re:Belive it or not this is a good thing! (Score:2)
All fixed-mount marine VHF radios produced are now DSC enabled. This means that when you want to equip your boat, dingy, log raft, canoe, yacht....Whatever...the radio you purchase will either be an old design (West Marine has a large backstock of Standard Horizon's Eclipse+ [westmarine.com] radio) or DSC enabled. You will still need a GPS unit to feed data to the radio.
End result is that most individuals involved in boating will have a DSC radio and GPS in the very near futu
Re:Belive it or not this is a good thing! (Score:2)
Re:Belive it or not this is a good thing! (Score:2)
Public Domain Information (Score:3, Interesting)
AIS consists of radio ID transponders which transmit the ID, status and destination of ocean going vessels.
A Google search will bring up much including sites which display the information graphically live for free.
More tracking? (Score:3, Funny)
Thank you!
Don't international waters start 3mi offshore? (Score:2)
Re:Don't international waters start 3mi offshore? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea was agreed in 1982 and set in force in 1994, and that limited full rights to 12 miles, and a further 24 miles for reasons of prevention o
Re:Don't international waters start 3mi offshore? (Score:2)
from Alaska to Maine. (Score:2)
This is not for defence (Score:2)
Let's think about this for a second.
The US imports a lot of goods, in fact a hell of a lot of goods. Most of these goods come in 40ft containers. These contianers can enter the shipping system at a number of points, very rarely are they opened during transit.
If I was of a certain mind and wanted to detontate my pet nuke how would I get it into position. I would not hijack a ship, to much effort and risk. I would load it into a container and hook up a pocket GP
Container bombs. (Score:3, Insightful)
This is something that has concerned me for a while - starting when I was motoring past a port instalation with an enormous stack of COSCO containers during a period when the US and China were rattling sabers a bit.
In case you're not familiar with it, COSCO is the Chinese Overseas Shipi
What a worthless article (Score:2)
Simply using the buoys to extend the coverage of their AIS network would make a lot of sense, since the transmitters are already installed on all relevant vessels and do contain some form of voyage data. Requiring Vessels to retrofit YAMaritime Surveillance Transponder doesn't make any se
Doesn't improve security (Score:3, Interesting)
And no, they won't declare their nuke in the freight papers...
The same (non-)effect could be achieved practically for free using satellites, so IMHO this is another case of "Look how we spend your tax dollars to improve our security!".
The paranoia is terrorizing me.
Choir Buoys (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Large Vessels (Score:2)
Re:Large Vessels (Score:2)
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:2)
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:4, Interesting)
The Russians fly Tu-95 and Tu-142 Bears, the Chinese fly thier knock-off of the Badger, we fly the P-3 Orion, the Brits fly Canberra and Nimrod's. Trickles down to to the smallest nations with patrol aircraft.
For decades NATO had a series of active and passive sensor networks across the GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom) gap to monitor Soviet shipping. There were similar arrays from Alaska to northern Japan.
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:2)
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:4, Interesting)
2. Planning an attack on a coastal target by a vessel that is not registered to a country with which you are in a state of war can be easily fit into the definition of piracy without stretching it. That is sufficient grounds for any navy ship to request a stop and search of any civilian vessel regardless of either ship country of registration and the civilian vessel must comply even if outside territorial waters. Basically a suspected pirate (not a suspected terrorist) is a fair game anywhere anytime. The legal basis for this predates the UN (it goes back into the 19th century).
3. If they only follow the traffic they can put it even in international waters. In fact it becomes illegal only if it is in another country EEZ.
4. This is the first sane thing the US has done to do something about its own security. It is infinitely easier to put a Grad (or higher class) launcher on a ship and level a significant portion of Manhattan compared to hijacking a plane, doing a dirty bomb or any other lunatic plot.
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:3, Informative)
Also all comercial aircraft are required to file a flight plan, and have transponders that integrate both into Air-Traffic control radars and military IFF, Interegator Friend or Foe, systems and nobody gets hissy over that..
I used to live right on the St Lawerence sea way ( 100ft South of the navigation light at the enterence to the St.Clair River from Lake Huron), and the rivers pilots were stationed 50 F
Re:Wait for it.... (Score:2, Funny)
No wonder it's so hard to navigate, they're going sideways.
Re:Using bouys? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Using bouys? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nuke (Score:2)
Re:Nuke (Score:2)
Re:Nuke (Score:4, Funny)
Lets go through the list of disasters we don't have on the east side of the state, nor have any risk of.
Volcano... See #2
I will admit though... we do live in fear of the day or former governor gets behind the wheel again.
Re:Nuke (Score:2)
--Mike
Re:Nuke (Score:2)
As far as volcanos go, you don't need to be on the edge of a plate for one to form, just near a thin spot. (Not that you have any in SD, mind you.) Earthquakes don't happen only at the edges of the great big plates, but along cracks between smallish ones as well. Also, quakes can make themselves felt for long distances if they're big enough. The New Madrid Quake was felt in Philidelphia and rang church bells in Boston. Imagine what it must have been like within a hundr
Re:Nuke (Score:3, Interesting)
So while, Water and Earth simp
Re:For a second I read that as (Score:2)
Re:How does this help security? (Score:2)
Re:How does this help security? (Score:2)
Part of the Coast Guard's job is stopping smugglers. Any ship coming in without the transponder is a possible smuggler, and they're going to get stopped. If they don't stop, the Coast Guard is allowed to open fire if needed. That's just doing their job. If you don't like it, try getting their rules of engagement changed. You won't succeed, but have fun trying if you feel that strongly abo
Re:How does this help security? (Score:4, Insightful)
No... The U.S. military is the most famous for being the most maligned by those who would rather appease and surrender. Just because they won't politely step out of the way of those who want to commit mass murder (Bosnia, Africa) like the blue-hats do, doesn't make them trigger happy. It makes them responsible when doing their job.
Nice try at your maligning attempt, though.
Re:How does this help security? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What's The News Here (Score:2)
Re:What's The News Here (Score:2)
Well, let's see...
They can smuggle nukes in in a small boat. (Even H-bombs are pretty small these days. Have to fit on a missile after all. A-bombs are a tad bigger than a grapefruit.) Ditto biological, chemical, or radiological weapons, or even significant amounts of explosives.
Landing them to use elsewhere isn't really necessary. Most of the "blue" pouplation is concentrated in coastal cities that grew up around s
Re:land borders (Score:2)
Y'all had them in Vietnam. I don't know how well they worked, but you lost that war.
Re:land borders (Score:2)
I understand that what lost the war was not the US pullout, but congress cutting off military aid shortly after. The SVA was apparently up to speed on taking over the war. But without supplies they collapsed.
Re:land borders (Score:2)
Re:Why not remote sensing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)