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Graphics Software Hardware

Smart, Intelligent, Flatbed-like Scanners? 41

Posted by Cliff from the functionally-rich-bandwidth-frugal dept.
MessageDrivenBean asks: "In a Windows-based terminal client environment, I'm looking for a smart flatbed-like scanner. It is okay to connect a scanner to a local USB-port and tunnel that scanner to the remote application on the terminal server. But actually scanning a page produces a lot of data and with a small bandwidth connection it takes like 10 minutes to get all the data in the application. Besides, I only need 2 specific small parts of the page in 300dpi, and JPEG is just fine, no need the get raw data. Does Slashdot know of an intelligent scanner that exposes some sort of API to be efficient in a low-bandwidth terminal client environment?"
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Smart, Intelligent, Flatbed-like Scanners? More

Smart, Intelligent, Flatbed-like Scanners?

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  • Wrong model? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 ) * <seebert42@gmail.com> on Thursday January 13, 2005 @04:46PM (#11352840) Homepage Journal
    I guess it would just depend on how incredibly thin your thin client is- why not just write a client side program that handles the scanning, then pushes to the server-side parent application?

    I don't know of a single scanner-only that could do what you are asking- most are TWAIN sources. OTOH, you might look into the latest round of Epson Stylus Photoprinters- they might be able to do what you are asking for (as they do it all- scanner, printer, and flash card reader all in one.
    • I don't want a full blown PC at that remote location that needs an operating system, patch management, virus signatures, adware control, etc., etc., etc... Furthermore, I'm talking about 500+ remote locations, which all have to be managed somehow.
      • The PC at the remote location is already "full blown", perhaps modulo a hard disk. Run rdesktop on Linux (does RDP5 including sound if you want) full-screen for your TS session(s), then overlay it with a purpose-built SANE client to do the actual scanning and ship the required data home to Mama.

        Amortising the pain of writing the client across 500 stations should be snap, and once you've done it you can publish the code for extra fame and employability.

        Positive advantages include easily sharing scanners be
      • Don't need a full blown PC at the client side to do this- just need something that you can code extentions to. Most dumb terminals today already HAVE an operating system- it's just an embedded one. Heck, even PalmOS, Symbian, Verifone, or WinCE could handle this- you don't need a desktop system at the 500+ remote locations, just something that can handle USB, TWAIN, and a scripted browser of some sort.

  • I'm confused... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I mean, you have to *physically* put the document into the scanner anyway, so why not:

    1) hook up the scanner to a dedicated machine
    2) set up the scanner such that all scans are saved to that machine
    3) compress to your liking
    4) pull that data via a simple network-drive type setup

    Or is there something really out-of-the-ordinary that I'm missing?

    • Re:I'm confused... (Score:3, Informative)

      by dJCL ( 183345 )
      OR

      Get a networked scanner, hp makes one, and most MFPs will do it too, and set it to scan to a folder, you can even do user login and have user folders with the advanced ones... Then they walk back to the thin client, load up the client software and edit the image from there...

      I know PSP9 works in a terminal server environment...

      JC
    • I think you are missing the point of using thin clients...

      But really, if you have a need for applications that don't work well on a thin client, DON'T USE A THIN CLIENT!!! Sheesh! They are NOT "The" solution to all problems...
    • I don't want a full blown PC at that remote location that needs an operating system, patch management, virus signatures, adware control, etc., etc., etc... Furthermore, I'm talking about 500+ remote locations, which then all have to be managed somehow, and are unmanaged today.
  • We have a client that uses thin clients themselves and have been considering a similar setup for them. Which thin clients were you using that you got that far? I would love to aquire one to test with.

    Thanks

    JC
    • The iGel is really sweet. It's definitely the best (most versatile) thin client I've used to date. Check out IGel's [www.igel.de] company page, or for a reseller go to Computer Products Corporation's [cpc-i.com] site and send an email to Jeff Kalberg. Make sure to tell him Feige sent ya. ;)
      In all seriousness, I've deployed quite a few IGels with great success. They are designed around the same hardware as the NEOware, but with MUCH better firmware. I've been able to do some miraculous things with them. Jeff K. can tell you ab
      • Well, I use the neoware ones currently, but the firmware sucks for advanced features. It only supports some USB mass storage type devices and generally flakey at that... We want these people to be able to upload digital camera shots too.

        I'll check them out, maybe give them a call tomorrow at work.

  • why you need? (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by gl4ss ( 559668 )
    some automatic stuff?

    attach a camera very carefully to a stand.

    *bam* insta scan. if you don't need high quality scan of the thing this should be ok
  • Most USB scanners are USB-1. Some newer models are USB2.0.
    USB-1 is 11Mbps. Ethernet is 10 or 100Mbps (probably 100 in this environment...)

    Even on USB1, If it's taking that long for the scan to get to the server, something else must be wrong. Could you somehow have the scanner in low-speed USB mode - same bus as a mouse or something?
    • Ummm. Many people in the real world have slower connections between "sites", which I'm going to make the assumption that there is some distance here between the "scanner" and the "end-user".

      So, even if they're using a modest residential DSL connection (256kbit up), it would take 4 seconds for one megabit (assuming this application as a whole could use the full pipe), then multiply by 8 - for 1 MB (32 seconds).

      I haven't done scans in a while, but 300dpi for an ENTIRE page would probably make the file fair
  • Nearly every scanner program I've ever used first does some sort of low-res preview pass, usually at something that looks to be decidedly under 72dpi (20 r 30dpi perhaps? I don't know). You then select the the section of the page to scan and do the high-res scan.

    It looks like existing scanners already do what you want.
    • Note: Most older Scanners (with basterdized Parallel or even SCSI connections) could be controlled from APIs without the need for a frontend (in fact, I can remember at least 2 scanners that did not even have frontends bundled). In any event, I would call HP, Epson, and any other scanner manufacturer you can think of, and ask their techs (not the people that answer the 'support line' phones -- ask to be put to a tech) if there is a public API.
      • I do believe my scanner falls into that category.

        It's a real relic. It's an Apple OneScanner, supporting 300dpi and 4-bit grayscale. Enormous and weighs a ton, it uses a Centronix SCSI cable (adapter cable) to plug into a 33mhz macintosh. The old Motorola MC68LC040 ones.

  • How about a 'network document server'? (Score:3, Informative)

    by senster ( 715558 ) on Thursday January 13, 2005 @06:01PM (#11353578)
    Axis (makers of network printer servers, web cameras, etc) also make 'network document servers' - essentially, a small dedicated computer to which you attach the scanner, and then it scans the document and emails the result or makes it available through a small web server: http://www.axis.com/products/axis_70u/index.htm [axis.com]

  • suggestions (Score:3, Informative)

    by tweedlebait ( 560901 ) on Thursday January 13, 2005 @06:24PM (#11353837)
    I'm do a few things in this industry but have not seen anything hardware wise yet that fits exactly what you're wanting.

    Some more information would help though, like-

    Do the scans need to be in color, greyscale or bitonal?

    What quality? 150dpi in color is often very readable and printable. I know you're using 300 but I'm not totally sure you need to.

    What exactly are you capturing? text? barcodes? Photos?

    Is the Region of Interest (ROI) consistant throughout the documents or does it change position from image to image?

    Is any of this being OCR'd?

    Are you wanting to use cheap usb scanners or is something more office grade ok? Lots of cheaper scanners don't get faster with lower dpi and some (a low grade agfa comes to mind) don't change speed for region of interest. It varies though.

    Small visioneer paperport products do have an api you can buy. They aren't flatbed, just the tiny sheetfed ones. Most scanners do not have available api or controls, only the garbage that comes with them.

    If you can avoid color, do so. Scan to TIFF group IV for b+w, most pages will be in the 20-100kb range at 200-300dpi and print out great for text.

    The preview mode is usually 72 dpi or less but often the interface won't let you directly save the preview, some require preview and then scan (suck!)

    As others suggested, a dedicated station is hard to avoid with scanners, and another option may be a networked copier if you're trying to keep everything thin client style.
    • Two 300 dpi photos, probably some color, one is a photograph, the other is a hand-written signature. The ROI is consistant, no OCR.
      • You only need to do this once? If so, just get any scanner off the shelf that will work in your environment, almost all of them give a low-res preview and let you select an area to scan at a higher resolution.
    • Hey, you sound like you know what you're talking about! Can I ask your opinion?

      Are you wanting to use cheap usb scanners or is something more office grade ok?

      Could you give me some examples of office-grade scanners under, say, $1000 US? The application is insurance card scans for a busy pediatrics clinic. (A specialized card-scanner won't work because my state Medicaid program has 8.5x11 insurance "cards". Sigh.) I don't need ADF or OCR or even color, but speed and reliability at 300 DPI or less would b
      • Sorry it took me awhile..

        I haven't priced the whole market lately, but under $1k is tricky. There are several options which I've seen but haven't directly used. I highly recommend getting a demo any way possible.

        There are some options though-

        Sheet fed might be preferable for you, and several small scanners have come out for small offices lately. The 'gotchas' on the small sheet fed models is most don't have double feed prevention, so train your operators to keep a sharp eye on the paper. You can oft
  • I have some experience with an Epson Perfection scanner. The overall Epson program handles both scanning and a printer (Epson of course) so that you can use the two like a copy machine. But relevant to your Question is this: The program presents you with a preview (low resolution) of everything on the scanner bed, and you can select a region for high-res scan. So, if the bandwidth of the low-res preview is OK for your needs, then this might be a way to go.

  • Ask Slashdot something obscure (Score:5, Funny)

    by bscott ( 460706 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @12:22AM (#11357764)
    Hey Slashdot, I need a Bluetooth-equipped eggbeater which can distinguish barcodes from Mandarin Chinese, in the dark, but it should run a Posix-compliant OS and not cost more than $74.92 (Australian) - and here's the hard part: because I'm using it in a preschool, it has to be phlegm-proof. Is anything like this shipping now, or soon? (compliance with the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht is optional but would be nice)
  • Get an HP All-in-One. The higher end versions support ethernet and wireless connections, so you can just connect them to the net and go. Easy enough to use from a terminal then. They support USB 2.0, so speed should be decent too (probably scanner limited, not IO limited).

    Disclaimer: I develop scan firmware for HP All-in-Ones.
  • Flatbed-like Scanners? Why not Waterbed-like Scanners! It reminds me of a strange prank couple of my students made few years ago. They essentially combined flatbed scanners with a waterbed mattress. The scanners were under the transparent mattress filled with water and their lights were supposed to have a good influence on the skin and blood circulation. And now the best part: they have actually managed to get a test group of students to test its effectiveness. What those poor girls and boys didn't know, wa
  • From the page:
    Axis' network document servers enable users to send scanned documents (e.g. sketches and contracts) instantly over the network to e-mail addresses, file servers, printers, URLs and the Web. Easy to install and use, the network document servers provide a faster, cheaper and safer method of distributing documents than by fax, traditional mail or courier.
    link [axis.com]
  • "I managed to get myself hired as an applications architect, and rapidly discovered I was in over my head."

    This is painfully easy to do.

    You clearly have some control over the machine where the scanning is taking place, so the answer is to simply manage the scanning operation at that machine, not from the remote terminal. The appropriate task for the remote terminal is viewing the results, not controlling the scan.

    If the remote terminal simply MUST control the scanning operation, then you're just faced wi
  • Have you looked to find a scanner/Fax solution?

    If a colour fax can meet your needs I think your problem is half-way to being solved.

  • SANE (Score:2)

    by iantri ( 687643 )
    SANE is network-aware.. You can access scanners remotely with it. I'm not sure of its status on Windows at the moment, but I think it works with at least SCSI scanners in Windows.

    Certainly Windows frontends like SaneTwain will work with any sort of SANE supported scanner if it is on a Linux or other *NIX backend.

  • HP Digital Senders (Score:3, Informative)

    by OrangeSpyderMan ( 589635 ) on Friday January 14, 2005 @12:02PM (#11363230)
    I once worked on a pilot for a project to deploy HP Digital Senders [hp.com] to remote locations for scanning documents and uploading them to a central european document archive onto WORM media. They have some useful remote configuration software that makes it easy to manage a "fleet" of them in one go, and they have several different options for user management. They're not cheap however. Might be worth investigating - though I don't know if they're customisable enough for your needs.

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