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Google's Dark Fibre Plans? 201
sebFlyte writes "According to news.com "Google is looking for Strategic Negotiator candidates with experience in...(i)dentification, selection, and negotiation of dark fiber contracts both in metropolitan areas and over long distances as part of development of a global backbone network." Is the search giant planning to build a global fibre-optic network?" Or perhaps simply use unused fibre that they can get for cheaper then from the datacenter providers; although at least from my talks with the datacenter folks, Google's not paying much per Mbps as it is.
You mean "than" (Score:1, Informative)
Re:You mean "than" (Score:3, Funny)
You say "fiber", I say "fibre" (Score:2)
Re:MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:1)
Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:5, Interesting)
I mean, Google might be getting cheap rates for www.google.com, but that probably wouldn't extend to customers, plus accessability wouldn't be that great...
I'm not quite sure what Google's angle on the market would be, except perhaps high-speed/low-cost, but that doesn't seem as elegant as Google's usual offerings...
Google's plans (Score:3, Funny)
Or you could just go to a rave.
Re:Google's plans (Score:2)
Re:Google's plans (Score:2)
Rule two about Google Brain Implant: You DO NOT talk about Google Brain Implant.
Dark Fibre (Fiber) is a common product (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:2)
Google is flush with cash, they have always
run lean & mean, and there are a lot of
dead and/or dying telcos that own "dark"
fiber. Buying unused fiber from the likes
of Global Crossing, PSINet, and WorldCom
would put them in the forefront of possible
ISPs. And considering the brave new world
of VoIP, Google might just want to be your
next phone company, too.
I welcome our new ISP/telco overlords!
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:1)
Google "dark fibre" SAN [google.com].
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:4, Informative)
Dark fibre or unlit fibre (or fiber) is the name given to fibre optic cables which have yet to be used. They are hence not yet connected to any device, and are only there for future usage.
There is a second meaning: It is fiber which is not lit by the provider. For example if you have two locations and lease a dark fiber between the two, you are essentially getting two ends of a single fiber with no networking equipment in the loop. You will then connect your own equipment at each end and light it your self.Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:5, Informative)
This means you provide the equipment, potentially giving you vastly more bandwidth than the telecom could sell you on that fiber. It also means you can upgrade your equipment later for faster speeds. It also means less points of failure on the line because its just optics all the way through.
Dark fiber usually isn't sold by the telecoms. Usually you'll have to get it from companys such as the railway and sewer owners - the guys who oversee the cables themselves, not the higher level services.
The disadvantage of dark fiber compared to a telcom OCx circuit are 1) you can't get channelized services eg split this DS3 into a few DS1 to this locations, and few DS1s to that location, a couple DS1s for ISDN PRI, etc etc. 2) you have less flexibility in choosing the endpoints - your choices are limited to big data centers where the vendors are willing/able to provide dark dervice 3) you don't get to deal with the really nice helpful people at the phone company
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:4, Informative)
There's probably 100* more dark fiber than lit fiber in the world - when they're putting it down it's dirt cheap to put a few more bundles in. You can get it pretty much anywhere to anywhere (where there's some kind of physical link anyway).
The real cost though is lighting the thing. It costs a fortune to rent the mux equiment, and it's large enough that space considerations at the other end come into play. That's mostly the reason why it's still dark in the first place (that and the telcos have so much excess bandwidth already they don't know what to do with it... it's more cost effective to negotiate a cut rate on a piece of existing fiber).
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:4, Informative)
When 2 pair costs $.20 per foot, without install costs, and 12 pair costs $.30 per foot, and it costs the same $10 a foot to bury the sucker, you might as well guard against future expansion, breakage and whatnot by installing the 12 pair. Standardizing on 12 pair also simplifies inventory work. I've heard that many telco's standardized on 12 pair everywhere except for major, major backbones because the savings from standardized purchasing, inventory, and etc made it cheaper.
*all costs are estimated
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:2)
Doesn't "dark fibe" use "dark suckers"? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:2)
Whenever railroads or sewers are run fiber is generally run along with it.
These fiber lines are often unused, or used in a very minimal capacity.
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dark Fibre (Fiber) defined. (Score:2)
-
Unification (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Unification (Score:2)
We knew it would happen (Score:1, Funny)
The thing is (Score:1, Funny)
I wouldn't be surprised to see 'em buy a Level 3 (Score:4, Interesting)
BTW, the Light Reading guys were the ones who "broke" this story back on January 6th [lightreading.com]
Re:I wouldn't be surprised to see 'em buy a Level (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I wouldn't be surprised to see 'em buy a Level (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the hell would Google want to buy up an existing ISP/telco with all the crap that that entails?
What they are doing is actually very sensible.
By looking to negotiate purchase/lease of dark fibre over the medium term they are avoiding the big cost which is actually putting fibre into the ground.
I imagine that they would ensure that the maintenance of that fibre is the responsibility of the provider, so they don't need to run their own maintenance crews either.
And the BIG plus with having access to fiber is that you can then ramp up your capacity by using WDM (Wave Division Multiplexing) to get more bandwidth out of your fibre.
They have probably realised that to ramp up their networks to cope with their future plans they need more bandwidth that they can afford to buy as "service" from a regular telco. Its just too damn expensive!
By leasing the fibre themselves, they light it how they want, rather that how the telco wants to sell it to them.
This *might* have biogger up front costs, but the recurrent costs are MUCH lower.
Thats quite a leap, I doubt they have such plans (Score:2)
Re:I wouldn't be surprised to see 'em buy a Level (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if all these new hires do is help Google's datacenter providers make good decisions about new or altered peering networks, they'll probably earn their keep.
The Google Empire (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Google Empire (Score:2)
Re:The Google Empire (Score:2)
They've been connected to the ams-ix for some time (Score:5, Informative)
The AMS-IX is the largest Internet Exchange / NAP in Europe.
Re:They've been connected to the ams-ix for some t (Score:3, Insightful)
Last I heard the largest Internet Exchange was located in London.
Re:They've been connected to the ams-ix for some t (Score:2)
Apparently both the LINX and the AMS-IX claim to be the largest. Let's just say that the AMS-IX is one of the largest. It's not about measuring dick size ;-)
As for stats, I could not find stats for the LINX; the AMS-IX peaks at 49.7 gbit/sec and they have 210 members using 322 switch ports.
Who has got the bigger one? (Score:4, Funny)
AMS-IX has more members 210 against LINX having only 169 members.
However they are both equally fun to party with.
Re:They've been connected to the ams-ix for some t (Score:3, Insightful)
It is? I was always under the impression LINX [linx.net] held that honour..
GoogleISP (Score:3, Interesting)
GoogleISP: Dark fiber to your city, fiber to you home coming soon.
And after they can give everyone a super high speed broadband connection, it's just one more step to selling a subscription for the comping suite of web-based apps that GMail proves they're so good at.
Doubtful (Score:3, Insightful)
If they were truly making such plans they would also have to hire literally tens of thousands of people, or make a monstrous acquisition. Neither of which appears in the cards from what I can tell.
Pure speculation: buyout AOL? (Score:2)
I think you've hit the nail on the head. (Score:2)
Re:Google WiMax VoIP (Score:3, Interesting)
Google + WiMAX + VoIP = enough technology and brains to stomp any RBOC or cable company.
The only problem with this is that the WiMAX timeline is far away, and it's unclear how much the end-user antennas will go for. Will users want to install another dish?
Even if they don't go this route, that dark fiber could be a useful asset down the road. If they can price it well enough, they'll be on the "buy" side of a make
Video search plans??? (Score:1, Insightful)
I know! (Score:3, Funny)
They want to take over the Internet.
Create a new backbone. Replace InterNIC and all the suits who control the net now.
Then compete and eliminate most first tier providers, and generally own the global network.
Best luck, Google! I hope you will succeed!
Re:I know! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I know! (Score:2)
As to the speed of synchronization - I don't agree. I think they need fiber to _eliminate_ need to synchronize. They want to work with a single (apart from online backup) copy of their data.
Re:I know! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I know! (Score:2)
Re:I know! (Score:2)
Google would be
Re:I know! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I know! (Score:2)
IPv6 is much, much better.
Re:I know! (Score:2)
Funny but not necessarily wrong (Score:2)
-S
Re:Funny but not necessarily wrong (Score:2)
Maybe they've thought up something beyond WWW?
I admit I haven't RTFA but if they mesh up their datacenters like that it might be more than just improving the google service.
I seem to lack the fantasy to imagine what it could be but I somehow think that if there is a company to set up the "next big thing" then it will be google (from todays point of view).
DNS sounds like an interesting starting point, but how would you make it "richer"?
Re:Funny but not necessarily wrong (Score:2)
Not surprising... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not surprising... (Score:2)
Hmmm, maybe Google can make the specialized network work for them. This syncing doesn't sound like a real time issue so speed of performanc
Re:Not surprising... (Score:5, Interesting)
As in: they used provider A for 36 hours, provider B for the next 36h, provider C for the next 36h, etc... (bear in mind it was not surfer facing transit, just used to sync up the DCs.)
They've probably reached the level where they've got too much data to get away with that scheme. So they've got a pretty simple choice:
- Pay for the commited rate they really need.
- Link the 2 Data Centers with dark fiber lit with 10GigE.
Based on the over provisionning most fiber companies did when they built their networks, there's a lot of room for negociation when you're shopping for fiber, especially when you can hang the promise of a huge internationnal network in the balance.
The second option is pretty much guaranted to turn out to be much more affordable.
Re:Not surprising... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not surprising... (Score:2)
A bunch of companies during the dot-boom were laying fiber like mad worldwide.
It looked impressive on the press releases "We have laid 72-fiber bundles over a 5000 km ring yadda yadda yadda".
Problem is, the equipment needed to "light-up" the fibres is fiendishly expensive - By the time the fiber rings were complete, there was no money left and the companies went bankrupt.
Result? In Europe, about 90% of fiber in the ground is unused (*) and being sold off really
Re:Not surprising... (Score:2)
Unlit fibre (Score:2, Interesting)
What i am thinking though, they want to build their own private network which links their many datacenters around the US, so that we can get our search results even faster, or any of the other things like gmail.
Storing mail in two seperate locations is possible, but it would make for a pain in the ass if it takes to long to sync the changes between the servers in different datacenters to get people
Re:Unlit fibre (Score:1)
Re:Unlit fibre (Score:2)
So though Global Crossing, MediaOne, RSN blah blah blah. I highly doubt Google has the hubris to think it can succeed where so many before (with access to so much venture/stock cash) have failed.
Re:Unlit fibre (Score:2)
>
> So though Global Crossing, MediaOne, RSN blah blah blah. I highly doubt Google has the hubris to think it can succeed where so many before (with access to so much venture/stock cash) have failed.
An proverb about being first-to-market:
The early bird gets the worm.
The second mouse gets the cheese.
Re:Unlit fibre (Score:2)
Think about it how far from the search business is it? Not at all. Google is quickly becoming the new yellow pages. Soon we will have our Google phones and Google Cell phones. Next will come Google TV. Then Google will buy Apple
Okay forget that last part but the rest makes a lot of sense. Google is the king of servers, search, and data warehousing.
Re:Unlit fibre (Score:2)
And why would Google know how to do VoIP? Would it be because of their excellent VoIP track record? Would it be because of all their experience as a VAR configuring, installing, and supporting 3rd party VoIP equipment? Or would it be because any company that manages to figure out how to write a good search engine is able to do anything from VoIP to curing cancer?
Seriously, this article seems to be filled with "Google w
quick grammar question (Score:5, Funny)
--
so dark, you'll forget the fibre
Re:quick grammar question (Score:1)
they are looking for techs that know information about fibre, to buy up the dead fibre that is in the US, unused, as in, no light going through it
"Glut of fiber assets" (Score:5, Insightful)
And even where there is overcapicity, it is mostly in the urban areas, put in place for business, not single family homes. Good luck getting dark fiber in the 'burbs, let alone the sticks
Re:"Glut of fiber assets" (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, they are right. There is a glut of fiber.
The press makes it sound like there's dozens of dark fibers just a few inches from your house, and those darn telcos/cable companies just don't want you to have access to them.
I've never gotten that impression. Never in the talks about fiber gluts and dark fiber have I heard about it being related to last-mile fiber. It is always about things like this, a c
I LOVE GOOGLE (Score:1)
Re:I LOVE GOOGLE (Score:1)
Perhaps just better performance? (Score:2)
I think people may be reading too much into this. They're talking about hiring out a small number of positions. Going from that to wanting their own national fiber network is a huge leap, but I suppose its fun to speculate...
Google steps towards "GoogleZon"? (Score:1)
than (Score:4, Funny)
Am I the only one.... (Score:4, Funny)
Am I the only one who thought of a few laxitive jokes when they read this?
I For One (Score:1, Redundant)
two tier google (Score:1, Interesting)
*Maybe* they will keep the freebie version of google for the peons, then offer a "corporate enterprise class scalable google data searching and management solution" whatever buzzspeak over this new controlled-by-them backbone setup. Say one of the features might be much better content filtering, spam control, antivirus scannin
Re:two tier google (Score:1)
Proof, At Last (Score:1)
At last, proof that
It's About Data Mining... (Score:2, Troll)
This isn't about what you think (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering what Google has built internally for server management and redundancy, I would hypothesize based upon available data (i.e. GFS) that they're looking to light up fiber between their data centers, while running either TCP/IP or IPv6 (with modifications of existing IGP and routing protocols, more than likely BGP or OSPF) between them.
This is a very smart move on their part, if this is true. This would allow them to do their own internal traffic control and shaping over a private network, and develop/modify algorithms for efficient transfer of data over said network, without having to "play" by Telco/ISP rules.
In other words, they're more than likely building their own global network to more efficiently transfer data over the Internet by completely bypassing it for their inter-server traffic. This is a very smart move, if true.
Re:This isn't about what you think (Score:2)
If the fiber is dark, why play with layer 3 at all?
A redundant network of dark fiber would allow them to turn everything into one big data center. All they'd have to do is just run 802.1q Ethernet trunking over the fiber. Suddenly, every VLAN is
Re:This isn't about what you think (Score:2)
It does not appear to be about just using trunking and turning everything into one big WAN. If you can deploy a modified layer 3 protocol, you can use it, in conjunction with applications, to intelligently route from server group to server group. Take a look at the Kentucky Linux Athlon Testbed (http://aggregate.org/FNN/) to see how you could deploy custom routing tables in a scenario where you assume that machines are not redundant, and in a scenario much like the one
Re:This isn't about what you think (Score:2)
Nice business idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Nice business idea (Score:2)
Seeking assets (Score:4, Interesting)
Google makes a move into the government sector (Score:2, Funny)
ISP - transit vs peer (Score:2, Insightful)
Traditionally, peering was free, buying transit service was not. Now such relationships are done by secret contract so the exact economics vary contract by contract, but it is a safe guess that peering is dramatically cheaper than transit. Google is likely getting to the scale (both from their web crawlin
A simple Google search (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:horrible writing (Score:2, Funny)
this article is horribly written! impossible to understand.
Why did you try to read it?
Nobody else here ever does.
Re:First post?! (Score:2)
Re:Google is taking over the world. (Score:5, Funny)
We are practically a Google Temple here, folks.
Re:Google is taking over the world. (Score:2)
More like a Pantheon: Google and *nix and Firefox and IP violation, and our dark gods, Microsoft and software patents.
Re:Google is taking over the world. (Score:2)
If anything was ever crying out for a "I, for one, welcome our _______ overlords" joke, that is.
MOD PARENT UP. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why bother with dark fibre? (Score:2, Funny)
Thanks for playing, please try again.