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Programming Education Technology

Breaking Away from Programming? 53

Posted by Cliff from the not-just-any-coder dept.
Captain Numerica asks: "I've been working as a programmer since I graduated from high school. I've been paying my own way through college, and now I'm about to graduate with a BS in Physics. I plan on continuing my studies to a PhD in Physics, but first I need to get on my feet financially, as a fellowship/TA position isn't yet sufficient for the debt I've accumulated in my more irresponsible years. I'm leaving my university with a great deal of programming experience -- a fact that I might want to advertise to potential employers. However, at the same time I don't want to become type-casted as just a programmer, as my real skills involve analytical and experimental physics. Has anyone working as a research engineer/scientist come out of college under similar circumstances?" For those of you with significant programming skills, but the wish to focus in areas more suitable to your education, how did you avoid falling into the Programmer IT Trap?
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Breaking Away from Programming? More

Breaking Away from Programming?

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  • "I plan on continuing my studies to a PhD in Physics, but first I need to get on my feet financially"

    You should concentrate on getting your PhD first, even if that mean more debts, because having a PhD--especially in Physics but that doesn't really matter--you will be able to negotiate much higher rates than people with the same or better skills but with lower degrees. It will also mean that your work will most likely be more research-related, which is much more rewarding and indeed important than another

  • Similar experience.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mike77 ( 519751 ) <mraley77&yahoo,com> on Monday January 31, 2005 @09:12AM (#11527345)
    I came out of college w/ a degree in Physics and engineering. And while my programming experience wasn't as good as yours (lots of fortran and some C++) I found the perfect route for myself. Take what you will form it and hopefully it will help you out. I started working at a major astronomy program (think big telescope in space) If you have good physics, computer and analytic skills, you can get a job w/ just a BS. It was an excellent opportunity for the following reaons:

    1) - Good paycheck! I was making more than enough to survive and pay off debt.

    2) - Opportunity to build your resume for grad school. (all of the people I worked with went to Tier 1 schools when they left)

    3) - Ability to do research in your spare time. Researchers are always willing to accept free labor :)

    4) - Ability to take classes for free. (or at signifigant discount)

    5) - Chance to go to conferences and present research (ie, make a name for yourself)


    I can think of a few more but I actually have to get to work now. Give me an email if you want some specific suggestions and places I personally know of.


    MR

    • I did a similar thing, but went to work for a small high tech (not computer related) company rather than a University. It paid reasonably well and I got stock options way before they were fashionable. I also saved up a fair bit of money so that when the crunch came in grad school I could remove most problems by spending money (thesis too large for computer in the days when memory cost real money? more memory overnight. Dishes stacking up? Dishwasher. Apartment such a mess you couldn't move? Cleaning
    • is where the money is. C/C++ and the ability to change complex equations into reusable code will make you more money than you can ever dream of. If thats your thing.

  • Apply for research positions (Score:5, Informative)

    by eraserewind ( 446891 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @09:13AM (#11527349)
    Apply for research positions in companies, and not for development ones. At least where I work, the two are clearly distinct. Product research is done by HW&SW researchers, and generally requires a Masters or PhD. These people make patents, algorithms, or fairly raw prototypes. Product developement is done by HW&SW developers, and generally requires a degree. These people develop products for sale, and sometimes productize the ideas that come from research. If you are looking to go back to academic research, then the research angle is the one to pursue. Development (and I speak as a developer) is always same old same old, even when it's a new product, since it's all about "the process". Following the process, renewing the process, refining the process, documenting the process, auditing the process, ignoring the process when it comes to crunch time, .... blech.
    • and generally requires a Masters or PhD....or the interest in doing one, I forgot to add. Since you have plans to do a PhD, you should try to find a company that will sponsor (or at least tolerate) your doing it while you occupy a research position with them.

  • I'm in essentially the same boat as you... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kenthorvath ( 225950 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @09:15AM (#11527360)
    Labwork is a good way to go. If you get involved in a physics experiment, programming knowledge is often highly desirable for the analysis portion and also during the setup depending on the situation. You can even do this while you are working on your PhD in the same department.

    If you feel the burnout starting to set in, you might take the year off and teach private school. They can't get enough physics teachers and you would have very little trouble finding work for a year or so.

    If you are looking for something longer term, many financial organizations higher physicists for their problem solving skills as stock market analysts. PhD's are often highly desired for those positions, but not required.

    But if all else fails, work is work - suck it up and do what you can until something better comes along. Even if it is programming.

  • Be flexible, be realistic (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jbarr ( 2233 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @09:19AM (#11527372) Homepage
    Given that you said you are soon to graduate, just remember that specifically what you do next in your career will not necessarily determine where you end up down the road. Don't lose sight of the fact that you have your whole life ahead of you. Most people coming right out of college are programmed (pun intended) to try to land the perfect, career-launching job. While this is the best case scenario, your best bet is to approach your career life as a realist.

    Certainly don't sell yourself short, just don't expect to land the perfect, high-paying, life-fulfilling job right out of college. Use this time to try to realistically focus on where you want to end up, and let it happen. Obviously your milage may vary, and this depends on many factors: Education, experience, region, specific field, economy, etc.

    Also, don't lock yourself into one specific geographical region unless it is absolutely important to you. You have the most flexibility at your stage in life than at any other time, so if the job market in your area seems bleak, by all means, branch out and see what's available in other regions.

  • I've seen the opposite problem (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mangu ( 126918 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @09:52AM (#11527526)
    It's not the people who work with programming and want to "break out" of it. The problem is with the hordes of scientists and engineers who don't know how to program. I think that a lot more emphasis should be given to programming in general and numerical analysis in particular in scientific and engineering schools.


    Otherwise, people fall into the "hammer is the only tool" trap, where every problem becomes a nail, or rather, an excel spreadsheet.

    • It's not the people who work with programming and want to "break out" of it. The problem is with the hordes of scientists and engineers who don't know how to program.

      Oddly enough, this is exactly what got me into a programming job. Some 15+ years ago, I was part of a group that Texas Instruments [ti.com] put through school to become Computer-Aided Draftsmen. But because I had a tendency to hack about, I ended up becoming the programmer for the group, writing AutoLisp add-ons for AutoCAD. The other guys were mor
    • This is why I'm in coding hell... I'm forced to use VB because it's something the other engineers can "understand"

  • Follow the Money (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Do not take on more debt if you can avoid it! Get a job for a couple of years to pay down existing debt and maybe save a little in preparation for grad school.

    Caveat: Don't expect to ever make lots of money as a research scientist.

  • I'd have to agree that the education is primo. However, I am under the impression it may be best to work on your masters while being employed. Find a school where you want to study, and look for a marginally affiliated programming job while finishing up. From my experience, most companies will pay for masters, but not all for your Ph.D. And what better way to alleviate debt by not adding more debt (tuition)?

    Pay some debts, then go full bore for the Ph.D. in grad school.
    • I am under the impression it may be best to work on your masters while being employed.

      There are advantages and disadvantages to this. I'm just finishing up my M.S. on this plan; while it's allowed me to maintain a fairly luxurious (by my standards, anyway) lifestyle while I've been in school, it's also been a hellish amount of work, and I haven't been able to devote as much energy to work or school as I'd have liked. The way I look at it is that any graduate degree worth getting is hard, and any job wo

  • Just go straight for the Ph.D. ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) * on Monday January 31, 2005 @10:30AM (#11527817) Homepage Journal
    ... if you are absolutely, positively sure that physics research is what you want to do with your life. Your debts, if they're student loans, can be deferred while you're in grad school. (And if they're not student loans, then get all the loans you can and put them toward paying down your other debts -- 3% student loan interest beats 15% credit card interest any day of the week.) In the long run, you'll come out ahead, financially, professionally, and personally.

    OTOH, if you're not absolutely, positively sure, then just get a job and work hard and make as much money as you can for a while, and then after a few years, when you've paid down your debts and hopefully have some money in the bank, you can decide if you really want to commit yourself full-time to research.

    In any case, don't worry about being typecast, IMO. Grad school admission committees aren't going to look at your work history and say, "Oh, this guy's just a programmer, we can't possibly teach him physics." If anything, they'll be more impressed by a wide variety of experience -- not to mention that there is a desperate need, in just about every scientific field, for researchers who also know how to program. And once you have your Ph.D., nobody cares what you did for a living beforehand. One of my best professors put himself through school, from day one as a freshman to the day he got his doctorate, as a short-order cook. Nobody in the department ever asked him to fry up some bacon and eggs.

  • This is funny... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Pig Hogger ( 10379 )
    I have a friend who did exactly the opposite...

    He got a pHD in nuclear physics, which he obtained by doing an experiment that involved extensive graphics programming on a SGI computer.

    Another friend working at $AVIONICS_COMPANY told him that they're looking for a guy with exactly his experience with SGI computers...

    So he applies for the job, only to have it rejected because he's "overqualified" (that pHD shure must have shocked the socks off the HR drone who read it)...

    Fortunately, some pushing was done

    • Re:This is funny... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by gowen ( 141411 )

      So he applies for the job, only to have it rejected because he's "overqualified"

      Anybody working in HR for a company that required skilled, intelligent personnel who rejects an applicant as "overqualified" wants shooting. In effect, the applicant has said "I could do something much better paid, but I want to do your job."

      And the HR has said "No, I want you to be rich but miserable, and I want us to employ someone working at the extremes of his ability who is, in all likelihood, angling to leave for somew

      • That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at is that the applicant has said, "I spent a lot of time and money on school and we both know that I can get a job worthy of somebody with a doctorate, but I'm applying for your job monkeying with an SGI because nothing has turned up yet."

        Part of the job of an HR person is to find applicants who will actually stick around.
        • Part of the job of an HR person is to find applicants who will actually stick around.

          HR is mostly there to keep the company from getting sued over various forms of employee grievance.

          If the job is very technical the decisions will usually get made by technical managers. HR sometimes causes trouble (that person is over/under qualified, doesn't dress well, costs too much, etc), but if they're doing technical filtering they're probably hurting the company more than helping.

    • Another friend working at $AVIONICS_COMPANY told him that they're looking for a guy with exactly his experience with SGI computers...

      So he applies for the job, only to have it rejected because he's "overqualified" (that pHD shure must have shocked the socks off the HR drone who read it)...

      Well, I know I have witnessed a PhD applying for a programming job for which they were arguably overqualified for. They lasted about three weeks since they had feelers out for a bunch of other things. Basically it tur

  • I work for the government in a military research lab doing cool research. Currently I make good money and the government pays for my school. My thesis is government related so I can do thesis work on the clock and I have an entire army of PhD's to help me out. So I recommend applying to Grad school (close to a government lab) then looking for a job/co-op position that will help pay for school. For the first two quarters of my MS degree I was making a living from a Teaching Assitantship and it sucked. T

  • Have you ever worked with National Instruments' LabVIEW environment?

    It's a little-known fact that LabVIEW has something like a 90+% marketshare in the realm of, well, I'm not sure what you'd call it: Engineering/Scientific-ish data gathering - the kinds of things that Engineers and "Scientists" do in their laboratories and out on the assembly line floor.

    Anyway, if you search at monster.com, you'll see that there are often more hits on "LabVIEW" than there are on "MCSD" [Microsoft Certified Solutions De


    • Are you kidding me?

      This is the best [and frankly the only piece of concrete] advice the poor guy has gotten in this stupid thread.

      Good grief. Some of you guys need to get a life.

      Or maybe you're LabVIEW programmers and you don't want the dirty little secret to get out...

    • Yeah but you can't write reusable code with Labview =P
    • first off, thanks for the reply. i do appreciate it. i've worked quite a bit w/ labview in lab. its good software... and the hardware interfaces available are great.. (not to mention the FPGAs--of which i've only read about.. but it looks great on paper) but its not the best actor-oriented type programming environment i've come across though ... for those reading this looking for something more than NI's options.. check out the Kepler project (http://kepler.ecoinformatics.org/) and Ptolemy II (http://pt

      • i've worked quite a bit w/ labview in lab. its good software... and the hardware interfaces available are great.. (not to mention the FPGAs--of which i've only read about.. but it looks great on paper) but its not the best actor-oriented type programming environment i've come across

        Wow, way to muddy the issue. I wasn't aware you were asking how to find work using the best actor-oriented type programming environment you've ever come across. I thought you wanted to get some computer-related work that was c

        • +5M points to you for pointing out the obvious thread furcation. They happen. Note the "for those reading this looking for something more than NI's option" (left out of your quote) in my reply. Someone about to embark on a research experiment with labView might appreciate knowing there are other robust options to get the job done.

      • first off, thanks for the reply. i do appreciate it. i've worked quite a bit w/ labview in lab. its good software... and the hardware interfaces available are great.. (not to mention the FPGAs--of which i've only read about.. but it looks great on paper) but its not the best actor-oriented type programming environment i've come across though ... for those reading this looking for something more than NI's options.. check out the Kepler project (http://kepler.ecoinformatics.org/) and Ptolemy II (http://ptole
  • I went through a similar thing when I went from the "Software Programing" side of IT Healthcare Software Engineering market, to the "Clinical Analyst" side of Healtcare.

    Make sure you stress the other skills and abilities you have. If you want them to hire you for a reason/skill set/purpose other than programing, give them something to hire you for. Certainly don't leave out your programing skills, but put it on the backburner, make it your back up.
    "Not only can I do all these great things, but if the sit

  • I did this successfully (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jnik ( 1733 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @12:05PM (#11528804)
    I graduated with a BA in physics (note that often a BA looks better for grad school admissions than a BS, as it implies a broader background) and a BS in computer science. After three years of grunt programming in the business world, I went back to grad school and am two years into my PhD. My suggestions:
    • If you can find a lab job or similar (check into NIST, NRAO, etc.), it might help in a number of ways: real learning, some taste for research, look good on the resume. But it'll suck, hardcore, for paying off those debts.
    • Keep all your undergrad stuff around--notes, texts, etc. It'll come in handy for admissions, GRE cramming, and when you apply to MIT, they want a complete list of textbooks you used as an undergrad
    • Don't slack off now--your grades in your advanced courses will have a big effect on your admissions prospects. Get a paper published if you can.
    • Keep your hand in. Poke through OCW and study stuff you didn't cover well in undergrad. Learn IDL or Matlab if you haven't already (and can afford the licenses--in fact, look into a student license now).
    • Plan well in advance for the GRE--you'll need to be taking it nearly a year before sending in applications, so you have to register well in advance for the subject tests (the general's a lot easier to get into). Prepare hard for the subject test--I found this was a real learning process where I assimilated all my knowledge from four years of undergrad.
    • Take on learning opportunities in your job. Anything you can learn, any skill you can develop, is worth having. On my applications I underscored that I had three years of working in a company and dealing with clients, that I knew how to run a small project, that I understood concepts of deadlines and budgets, and that I could effectively communicate technical information to non-technical people. This sort of thing will differentiate you from the fresh out of college crowd.
    • Keep living like a student--cheap and focussed. It's easy to get distracted and spend all your time (except for work) and money on having fun. Moderate that urge.

    • I graduated with a BA in physics (note that often a BA looks better for grad school admissions than a BS, as it implies a broader background)

      Actually my real-life experience speaks the opposite. In technical fields, all those core-curriculum classes are ignored by a grad school admissions committee. Completely ignored. I mean, like, if you got all Fs in non-major classes, got all As in your major classes, you would would be a better candidate than someone who got mostly Bs in his major and good grade

  • What Works (Score:3, Insightful)

    by saden1 ( 581102 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:16PM (#11529586)
    Physics is one of the hardest fields to find a job, especially if you only have a B.S. Most companies will prefer a Masters when it comes to the research positions. You have programming skills which you should advertise to no end to make yourself stand out. You should also consider getting an IT position or an entry level position as a research assistant in companies where aerospace is prominent part of their business. That way once you have your M.S. or Ph.D you can transfer within the company. Good luck.

    • Re:What Works (Score:3, Insightful)

      by bitingduck ( 810730 )
      Physics is one of the hardest fields to find a job, especially if you only have a B.S. Most companies will prefer a Masters when it comes to the research positions.

      It's probably easier to get a job with a BS in physics than with a Masters. There are very few programs that even admit people for terminal masters (some of those are quite good though, and it's usually engineering oriented)-- usually it's what you get instead of turtle wax when you bail out of a PhD program. I've occasionally seen people gr
  • We can closely match the university pay and it'll be alot more fun I promise. You can start with the tivo integration project!

  • If you have any interest in any other field (like computers?), you might seriously want to consider changing fields for your Ph.D.

    Since you're talking about a Ph.D, I'm guessing you're interested in a research job. Currently there's a vast oversupply of labor in the physics research labor pool. People do ten years of postdocs with little assurance of getting a job in the end.

    I knew a physics Ph.D who finished and was so discouraged that he immediately started from scratch as a premed. He had talent

  • Work for NASA, etc. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Bamfarooni ( 147312 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:35PM (#11529766)
    Good research programmers are hard to find, and places like JPL, Los Alamos and Ames are pretty much always looking for people in this area. They're also on the bleeding edge of research and closely integrated with some of the best grad schools in the country.

  • go to work for the feds (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sribe ( 304414 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:44PM (#11529870)
    Look for a job with a government agency that does both research and computer-based simulations. Examples: NOAA, NIST, NREL for unclassified work. Out here in Colorado a fair number of grad students similar to you go to Los Alamos for summer jobs.
  • If you focus on the broad picture, and keep your nose above the water, you'll find that the programming industry is pretty broad. Pick a subject you like and go for it. You will succeed because frankly, the CS/CE guys don't know a lot of things that you take for granted. (Hint: Math = Knowledge = Real Power)

    I'd look for a job in a smaller company where you will work closely with management, rather than a large company where you work with other programmers. This will give you a lot more freedom to choose t

  • decide what you want (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Goldsmith ( 561202 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @04:19PM (#11531568)
    There are a few options to get paid and get a PhD at the same time. I would recommend looking at companies like General Atomics. I know that at GA, they employ a lot of computational physicists on their fusion project who are also faculty members at various schools around the world. It's possible to have both a job and a research project. On the other hand, there are probably a handfull of such opportunities worldwide.

    It makes no sense at all to go out and establish yourself with a company only to throw it away after a few years by leaving to work on a PhD.
    Getting a PhD in Physics is not easy, and is definitely NOT something you can do while working a serious job.

    In addition, you may want to look at what a PhD will get you. It's basically a membership card into the "physics club". This gets you access to government grants, academic institutions and conferences. These things are technically open to anyone... but you really need a PhD just to make the first cut where jobs and money are concerned.

    The downside of a physics PhD is that it really doesn't guarantee you that much. You will have a job in physics should you want it. That job will likely pay slightly more than what you could make now. Look at it this way:

    Research Fellowship: $15k to $30k /year
    Postdoc position: $30k to $50k /year
    Assistant Professor: $40k to $70k /year

    It will take about 10 years to get to the Assistant Professor level should you decide to go the academic route. If you want to go industry, why get the PhD if you have the skills you want to use right now? I'm not sure the 6 years of time off are made up for by the added pay.
    • If you want to go industry, why get the PhD if you have the skills you want to use right now? I'm not sure the 6 years of time off are made up for by the added pay.

      It depends on the field you want to work in and how much independence you want. With a BS/BA in physics you can fake your way into various flavors of engineering jobs, but I haven't seen many people who stopped with a BS who get the flexibility you get with a PhD (I know one, and he's actually going for a PhD now because it is part of the pr

  • Just a programmer? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Mozai ( 3547 )
    I find I have the opposite problem: I often get hired on as a programmer, but inevitably my job becomes sysadmin and tech support. "Oh, I know I should be talking to the other guy, but he doesn't know how to..." and so on. Eventually, I gave up and got a sysadmin job.

    By a strange coincidence, now as a sysadmin I'm asked to fix things that the developers have written, and to write internal tools.

  • There are basically three different ways you can go to get out of programming:

    1. Specialist: acquire deep knowledge. Find a field you're really interested in (not easy), learn more about it (easy if you're academically inclined), and try to find related jobs to become an expert on that. Fits nicely with academic studies too. The problem is to find a field that you are really interested in and won't be hopelessly outdated in ten years. I remember a famous retired expert saying in an interview that thanks to
  • The only limiting factor here is yourself.

    If you want to do something, you can do it, simple as that. Granted, the road to the objective isn't always paved with golden bricks. I would refer you though to this dictionary entry [reference.com].

    Personally my side-thing beyond my IT/Crypto experience is working on a book. You could be a bouncer, flip burgers, pump gas, or something more lucrative.

    You're the only thing holding yourself back from whatever it is you want to do. Any hurdles in the way you either work on

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