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LokiTorrent Shut Down 1332

wan-fu writes "LokiTorrent, a popular torrent site, has officially been shut down. After asking for donations from users for the past couple of months to fight the MPAA's lawsuit. LokiTorrent succumbed today and the MPAA took over the website with a stern warning, stating, "You can click, but you can't hide." A variety of outlets are carrying the story."
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LokiTorrent Shut Down

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  • by bigtallmofo ( 695287 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:17AM (#11641600)
    Didn't this just happen? How in the world did they get a $1 million judgement against LokiTorrent already!?

    Is it just me or do the wheels of injustice move far swifter than the wheels of justice?
    • by drgonzo59 ( 747139 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:54AM (#11642157)
      Why doesn't he move his website to some other country (except Christmas Island of course, although lokitorrent.cx would be a good url ;) where nobody gives a crap about MPAA? Then he can accept donations to keep the website running and have extra to buy candy and ice-cream instead of paying for legal fees, which is a lot more expensive.

      MPAA is fighting a loosing battle and are wasting their money. If a significat ammount of people don't think trading media is wrong then they'll find a way to do that. It is just like police and society, if everyone decided all of the sudden to go out to kill and pillage, there just won't be enough policemen around to stop them. But most people don't think that killing and pillaging is not right, that keeps the order not the fear or force of the police.

      And I like MPAA's little adds in the movie theatres how they show this poor set designer who claims the pimply-faced hackers stole his money. Why don't they show the billionaire owners and executives of the studios? I can almost see the add:

      [Sad marimba music in the background...]
      "Because of the wide-spread piracy the poor CEO of [insert name] studio won't be able to afford a Ferrari for his 16 year old daughter. Look what piracy has done! His daughter will be forced to drive a BMW now. How does that make you feel?"
      • by superstick58 ( 809423 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:45PM (#11642997)
        " And I like MPAA's little adds in the movie theatres how they show this poor set designer who claims the pimply-faced hackers stole his money"

        I was in the theater with my friend when we first saw this commercial. During the silence immediately after the commercial my friend burst out "Cool! I should download that when I get home." Everyone started laughing.

  • by SilveRo_kun ( 741555 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:17AM (#11641601) Homepage Journal
    I love his favourite quote... it seems an MPAA statement reguarding lokitorrent's defeat.
    From his profile:
    http://profiles.yahoo.com/edwebber [yahoo.com]

    Favorite Quote
    "Then there will be running and screaming - Jurassic Park"

    Thank god my ip address is not in the logs that he gave the MPAA.

    I don't think he will answer, but from his profile you can see when he is online, and you can send him a message asking him what's going to happen to that donation you made for the lawsuit. A normal e-mail address is supplied, too.

    P.S, for some reason, sometimes YAHOO says the page doesn't exist... if this is the case, try google's cache [] =)
    • It seems to me that he (Ed Webber) simply took the money and ran - screwing over anyone that did donate to the defense fund (I didn't thankfully).

      LokiTorrent raised well over thirty thousand dollars and was getting about 680,000 - 700,000 hits a day. That has to be major advertising dollars also. If Ed did cut a deal with the MPAA, he could have made bank.

      I'm not the only that thinks this it seems [torrent-news.com]
      • by XorNand ( 517466 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:52AM (#11642123)

        They actually took in closer to $70k.

        I long predicted this, for obvious reasons. Loki succeeded in getting a lot of naive idealists rallied around the call to "fight the Man". People donated thinking that they'd have ring-side seats to an exciting legal battle. It was all bullshit... Of course it was. There was absolutely zero change of them successfully defending themselves, based on mountains of preceding case law. If you were sitting on $70k in real cash (not just discussing a hypothetical situation on the semi-anonymous Intraweb), would you really flush it down the toliet? Even if you met with several lawyers who told you to expect the exact same outcome?

        I'm sorry, but this outcome was obvious to any rational observer. It saddened me to see Loki take advantage of their users like that. But, it also enraged me to see them actually monetarily profit from distributing software that was not within their rights to sell.
    • by XorNand ( 517466 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:33PM (#11642826)
      One of the last announcements from Mr. Webber. Kinda shameful/funny considering what he's done two weeks later.
      01/27 - LokiTorrent up for sale? (by lowkee)
      I now know what it's like to be a politician. Every move, no matter how small, gets posted as news.

      As some of you may have read recently on some p2p news sites, LokiTorrent.com is posted as 'for sale' on Sedo.com.

      If you ran a website (and some of your do), wouldn't you be curious how much it was worth?

      It's common knowledge that most people that buy websites don't buy them to continue running them. They simply nab the mailing list, spam everyone, then make the site into one big sponsored search engine and pop-up gallery. ...The exact reason selling it would mean scrapping an entire year's worth of work that I and the entire volunteer team at LokiTorrent have put into making a worthwhile community site.

      If some guy offers me $75K for the domain name, he's more than welcome to it, and I'll simply move the site to a different domain. Selling the entire site will never happen. I have way too much of myself in this site to sell it for any price (well, 2 million could get me to part with it, lol.. but let's live in reality).

      As for the legal fund.. if I were going to run off, I would have already. That money is for the lawsuit, as stated. Only those who would run off with the money thought we would.

      The legal fund is an enormous sum, and it shows exactly who supports p2p rights. Those who called it a scam and haven't put a few bucks in don't deserve the work, money and time I and the rest of the supporters of LokiTorrent and other p2p sites have put into their projects. If it were up to them, the internet would be nothing more than porn spam and fake college degrees.

      Lead by example. We're fighting for your rights, the right to run our site and up until recently I have been spending my OWN money (thousands of it!) to keep LokiTorrent running for this past year. It was only recently when we began making our bills.. just in time for them to double from extra bandwidth usage.

      If there were so many who jump on the 'it's a scam' bandwagon every time we make a change or entertain curiousity, this website (and many other user supported sites) would never exist. I can't tell you how many people I've seen say 'That lawsuit is a fake, anyone can make up a bogus suit'

      Yeah, tell that to the MPAA. I'd love nothing more than to make that rediculous suit vanish.

      Write an article on that.

  • QUIT LYING! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Emrikol ( 21551 ) * <emrikol.decarbonated@org> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:17AM (#11641602) Homepage
    It's copyright infringement, not theft for fuck's sake!
    Quit trying to make people confuse them.
    That's like saying amputation is "partial murder".
    Hmm, I take that back...I don't want to give them any more ideas!
    • LokiTorrent, a popular torrent bootlegger site, has officially been shutdown.

      Copyright infringement is a type of theft.

      When you take something without securing permission to take it, even if you are just taking a copy of intellectual property, that is theft.

      If you ask me to sign a petition to revise copyright law to be more favorable to consumers, I'll gladly sign it. If somebody rus for office saying he wants to make copyright more fair, I'll listen to his ideas. ... But what I won't do is support dat
      • by WhatAmIDoingHere ( 742870 ) * <sexwithanimals@gmail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:42AM (#11641971) Homepage
        Definitions of theft on the Web:

        larceny: the act of taking something from someone unlawfully

        If I download a movie what have I taken? Profit? They never would have gotten it in the first place. I don't go out to movies, but I buy them on DVD if they're good (as judged by the file I downloaded)

        So if I purchase their product on DVD (Where most of their profit is actually made) who am I forcing to sell their child into slavery? The stars who make $xxMillion per movie? The crew who was paid before the movie was released to theaters? Or the already rich management bastards at the movie company?
      • by Znork ( 31774 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:53AM (#11642146)
        "Copyright infringement is a type of theft."

        No, it isnt. It is a violation of government granted temporary exclusive rights. You're not taking any property, you're violating their exclusive right to make copies.

        If copyright was 'actual property', then the expiration of copyright would mean the state was confiscating that property. Not even the RIAA/MPAA's propaganda machines tries to claim that yet. I'll bet you it's coming tho, and that it's the reason they want to anchor the belief that physical and intellectual property are in any way similar - wait for the campaign where they'll try to convince us that the state is trying to steal their property, and that copyright and patents should be extended to forever.

        Beware what ideas the propaganda machines try to place in your head, for their agenda is not always what they claim it to be.
      • by poot_rootbeer ( 188613 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:30PM (#11642793)
        LokiTorrent, a popular torrent bootlegger site

        I'm a torrent bootlegger.

        I download .torrent files from popular trackers, make copies of them, and then post those .torrent copies on Usenet!
      • by Bloomy ( 714535 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:49PM (#11643068)
        Copyright infringement is a type of theft.

        The US Supreme Court came to a different conclusion in Dowling vs. United States [wikipedia.org].

        From the decision [findlaw.com] :

        Since the statutorily defined property rights of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
    • Re:QUIT LYING! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ScentCone ( 795499 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:08PM (#11642443)
      It's copyright infringement, not theft for fuck's sake!
      Quit trying to make people confuse them. That's like saying amputation is "partial murder".

      Am I the only one noticing that the loudest, whiniest people addressing this topic are those that seem to have some personal, vested interest in preserving their ability to avoid paying for their entertainment? Actually, they can have all the free entertainment they want, as long as the entertainer is willing to do it for free. But why bitch about the MPAA? They're powerless without the entertainers that pay them to do what they do. What you're really complaining about are the artists, writers, producers, studios, and other entities that choose to be a part of the MPAA and RIAA universes.

      The material that people pirate (presumably because they respect the creators' work enough to want to listen to it or watch it), is created by people who have chosen to use an established entity to help preserve their property rights and get them a paycheck. So, you like the artist, but not the artist's chosen profession or way of making a living?

      Consuming an artist's work without paying what they ask for it is just like any other theft of services. Whether or not it's copyright law that has to be used to stop it, how can so many people imply that "because it's not theft" it's somehow OK? Hopping in someone else's cab without paying, just because it's going your way... that's OK? I mean, the cab isn't stolen, so why not? And, that private shuttle bus... it's driving around and around anyway, so why pay for it? Or someone spends their lifetime building botanical gardens, knowing that people will pay to experience them... but they're just sitting there, and all you're doing if you don't pay the gardener's price is using up some photons that no one else was using anyway...

      I don't give a damn which law, regulation, or statute specifically addresses this issue, or by which means the artist (and their representatives) tackle the continuing abuse of the material... anyone consuming that work without paying what the artists ask is making slaves of those artists.

      That's like saying amputation is "partial murder"

      So, not entirely killing someone is OK if only murderers otherwise get punished? And, making only part-time slaves out of people is OK?
      • Re:QUIT LYING! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Cecil ( 37810 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @01:15PM (#11643384) Homepage
        is created by people who have chosen to use an established entity to help preserve their property rights and get them a paycheck.

        Chosen is a strong word to use. Are you a musician? Do you know any musicians? Signing with the RIAA or MPAA is not a 'choice' in the way you're probably thinking of it. They have the entire industry by the nuts. They have distribution and radio/television advertising tied up tighter than you can possibly imagine. Their grip on clubs and tours gets tighter every day. Even with the advent of the Internet, there is still no way around them. Anything that challenges them gets sued (whether the complaint is legitimate or not), then gets bought at a bargain basement price, and finally is euthanized or utterly declawed (Select examples: mp3.com, Napster, and now LokiTorrent)

        The only 'choice' in signing with the RIAA or MPAA is whether you'd like to make being an artist your full-time job, or whether you'd like to continue it as a hobby while you work at the gas station. For one, you sign with the *AA, for the other you continue being an indy. If you think it isn't really THAT bad, you're wrong. Even rich, successful, well-known artists have tried to go against the tide of the RIAA, and ended up as just so much wreckage shattered on the rocks. The RIAA is a 500 ton gorilla with a massive inferiority complex.

        anyone consuming that work without paying what the artists ask is making slaves of those artists.

        The RIAA is making slaves out of artists, not the "Pirates". The RIAA was making slaves out of artists long before the first bootleg tape was ever made. Please understand, Pirates (capital P) and the RIAA are at war, and it's not about getting music without paying for it. At its core it mirrors the "free software" movement in many ways. It's about artist's rights and the democratization of the music industry. This doesn't mean I agree with the tactics being used, (by either side) but this whole thing it goes much deeper than mere "stealing music is bad, mmkay?" that's just the surface of the conflict. There are clearly vendettas on both sides. Open source vs. closed source is a cold war/arms race right now, but in contrast the Pirates vs. RIAA is an all-out nuclear war.

        And, making only part-time slaves out of people is OK?

        Yes, yes it is. Go to any software development company for all your part-time slavery needs. Except EA, they specialize in full-time slavery.
  • by Vann_v2 ( 213760 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:17AM (#11641603) Homepage
    What I want to know is, if I were to work for the MPAA, would I get a cute proto-fascist uniform? You know, maybe black or a rich tan color, with a little armband and small hat. Because if I did then I'd definitely work for them.
  • by slusich ( 684826 ) * <slusichNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:18AM (#11641609)
    Regardless of the legality of the site, it is down now simply because they didn't have the money to fight a lawsuit. This is a dangerous trend which has been going on for far too long.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:19AM (#11641624)
    ...by a court order or something, but how can the MPAA take it over and put their own blurb on it short of an actual court decision in their favor?
    • by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:35AM (#11641863) Homepage
      Well several of the sites are claiming it was a "settlement" between the MPAA and Lowkee/Ed Webber. The general consensus seems to be that this entails handing over of the site, any logs and an unspecified amount of money to the MPAA and a promise not to do it again, or face further more severe sanctions. A jail sentence, or even a criminal prosecution, does not appear to be in the offing, although there *is* a court gagging order in effect. However, for a different take on what "settlement" might have been, check out this article [torrent-news.com], which should be especially of interest to the suck^H^H^H^H people who donated money.
  • by jolyonr ( 560227 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:20AM (#11641641) Homepage
    - quote from their site.

    So does that mean if you have downloaded stuff, and you stop, they can't catch you? Does it imply an amnesty? Or is it just sloppy wording on their part?

  • by bblazer ( 757395 ) * on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:20AM (#11641642) Homepage Journal
    I just checked out the hijacked site and saw their warning. It claims that downloading copyrighted files leaves a trail and the only way not to get caught is to stop. I wonder if this is the same trail that led them to the 80 year old woman that didn't own a computer that they sued (repealing the suit only after she died). I heard as she died she exclaimed, "Run, run as fast as you can (MPAA) you can't catch me I am the gingerbread man!!!!"
  • Ironic... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by boris_the_hacker ( 125310 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:20AM (#11641650) Homepage
    ... is it just me, or does anyone else find it ironic asking people who pirate films, music and other such downloads for money ?
    • Re:Ironic... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ceeam ( 39911 )
      ... is it just me or does anyone else find it ironic that people that "fight against piracy" charge for a frigging CD/DVD the amount of money they do? Is it ironic that people that fight against zero-day warez release movies months later in Europe than US?
  • a) back to the people who donated
    b) be channeled to a fund for tsunami victims in Asia
    c) get LokiTorrent owner that bitchin new plasma tv at Futureshop
  • TheInquirer article (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hoferbr ( 707935 ) <fabiomNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:21AM (#11641657)
    Something to worry about:

    What's really alarming the swapperati, though, is that Lokitorrent has agreed to turn over the server's user logs.

    In a normal situation, you could make the case that agreeing to turn those over is a violation of users' privacy. In this situation, even if you could show that the site's terms and conditions promised never to disclose its users' information, you would almost certainly lose: a court that has just shut down a site for illegal activity is hardly likely to agree to protect its users. Especially not since the Supreme Court decision in Illinois v. Cabbales, which held that sending a sniffer dog to find drugs through a car stopped for speeding does not violate the Fourth Amendment (the one that prohibits search and seizure without probable cause). Around now, the MPAA is probably gleefully poring over the logs, going through IP numbers, and compiling a list of the "hundreds of thousands" of individuals it might sue next. Fun!

    From http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21216
  • by StacyWebb ( 780561 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:21AM (#11641658) Homepage
    "The illegal downloading of motion pictures robs thousands of honest, hard-working people of their livelihood, and stifles creativity"
    Well I guess that expains all the crappy movies coming out of Hollywood.
  • by Dancin_Santa ( 265275 ) <DancinSanta@gmail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:22AM (#11641675) Journal
    They always tell you, when you are jumping into the job search fray, to Network, Network, Network. For the flip among us, it is taken to mean that one needs to get greasy and slimy and be generally fake with a bunch of people. These are typically network engineers, which is pretty ironic.

    But the same holds true here. You need to be able to get onto networks that are private and trustworthy. The last thing anyone needs is to join a torrent network and have the RIAA or MPAA come in and seize personal hardware. You want to find the torrents that use GUIDs for URIs. You want to find the torrents that are so underground that only the people who are on it know of it. The way to do that is to Network Network Network.

    Posting at Slashdot is one good way of Networking. Getting to know people, learning the habits of some posters, and generally being attentive and friendly and discrete is the way to become trustworthy yourself. Once you are seen as someone who can be trusted, you can then approach people about joining their underground torrents.
    • by Swamii ( 594522 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:42AM (#11641974) Homepage
      Dear Kind Mr. Dancinsanta Sir

      My name is Julian Gilby Mulahmulah, son of the late King Abwar Mulahmulah III of Ivory Coast.

      As it happens, my country's underground torrent has been taken over by evil Movie Picture Association Rebels and have taken hostage my father, the former king, and other members of the royal palace. Praise be to Allah, before the takeover I was able to smuggle out the kings royal coffers, totalling in the amount $10,000,000 (ten million United States Dollars).

      Sadly and with a broken heart, I cannot deposit this money in a local bank account, as every move made in the country is done under the watchful scrutiny of the MPAA rebels. I humbly and most abashadly ask that you help me in this matter. If you could provide me with the name and universal resource indicator of your underground torrent, I will gladly offer you 5% of the royal king's coffers in exchange for your assistance in this most urgent matter.

      I most humbly and anxiously await your speedy reply.

      Julian Gilby Mulahmulah
  • Not american. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:22AM (#11641677) Homepage Journal
    Hold on, the MPAA can tell me what to do when I'm not even American?

    I know what they are trying to do is proper, and cutting the supply off at the central source is tonnes better than the underhanded suing kids and grannies, but I'm not even American.

    We need copyright to protect Linux and Open Source in general, but surely only where laws are in place?

    side note, can American filesharers use proxies in remote countries to protect themselves from **AA lawsuits?
  • Repulsive... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LakeSolon ( 699033 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:23AM (#11641690) Homepage
    This website has been permanently shut down by court order because it facilitates the illegal downloading of copyrighted motion pictures. The illegal downloading of motion pictures robs thousands of honest, hard-working people of their livelihood, and stifles creativity. Illegally downloading movies from sites such as these without proper authorization violates the law, is theft, and is not anonymous. Stealing movies leaves a trail. The only way not to get caught is to stop.

    Am I the only one who is absolutely repulsed by that message? A friend just said, after reading it, "wow... how come I feel that i was just glared at by the SS?". This kind of brainwashing is the same bullshit that got Bush re-elected. Our society requires an informed populace to function properly. All the powers that be are manipulating public perception to suite their own needs and it really, really, needs to stop.

  • by L. VeGas ( 580015 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:23AM (#11641701) Homepage Journal
    "You can click, but you can't hide"?

    This is a wonderful illustration of the creative genius of the entertainment industry. I have a few more suggestions along the same lines.

    "Guys don't make passes at girls who click torrents."

    "You can lead a horse to water, but you better not click that torrent!"

    "Click on a torrent, break your mama's back."

    "What would Jesus Do? Not click on torrents, you betcha!"

    "I wouldn't click on a torrent if it were the last torrent on earth."

  • Comin' a rain... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:24AM (#11641717) Homepage Journal
    But of course they can hide, as MPAA actions force torrent swarms to decentralize and truly anonymize. To the MPAA: you can sue, but you can't catch!
  • by gowen ( 141411 ) <gwowen@gmail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:25AM (#11641721) Homepage Journal
    This website has been permanently shut down by court order because it facilitates the illegal downloading of copyrighted motion pictures.
    Let's face it. Every single word of that is true. Loki didn't quit because they ran out of money, they quit because they were going to lose, and they knew it.

    They knew copyrighted material was being downloaded illegally, and they were more than happy to help facilitate that -- hell, that was pretty much the raison d'etre of their site.
  • by loteck ( 533317 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:25AM (#11641731) Homepage
    Since so many media outlets are covering this, now would be the perfect time for some ambitious person to change the lokitorrent.com website to display this image [pipex.com] and with this quote:

    "The more you tighten you grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
  • by spyrochaete ( 707033 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:29AM (#11641788) Homepage Journal
    Does it really help a torrent or ED2k site if you send money to help with legal fees? I would think this would only complicate the defense - having to prove that the money was only used for the benefit of the website.

    It looks like the P2P world is going to go through a bit of a shuffle until it can find the "sweet spot" country that will not prosecute, just like what happened with online bookies and casinos.

    This story is getting pretty tired. Pirates figure out a smart way to distribute media, old fashioned companies too lazy to change their business model start suing the pants off of everybody, nothing changes in the long run, and in the end the company adopts the new methodologies or dies.

    How many times must history repeat itself before companies learn to listen to their consumers? They know what they want better than any marketing department.

    Oh yeah, and screw the proprietor of Lokitorrent for being a spineless jellyfish. He did a real disservice to his visitors by ratting them out. There needs to be a P2P code of conduct with a corresponding logo on list sites to tell users that their privacy will be protected if the site comes under legal fire.
    • Let's be honest. Anyone who sent money was never going to see a dime anyway. The chance that $30,000 a month would permanently stave of the MPAA was nil. And using the money to stay out of prison is a reasonable use for the cash--and that may have been what he was planning the whole time.
  • Fortunately... (Score:3, Informative)

    by TheSurfer ( 560640 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:31AM (#11641811)
    ...other sites are continuing, like mininova [mininova.org] and The Pirate Bay [thepiratebay.org] :)
  • Only in the USA (Score:5, Informative)

    by lipi ( 142489 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:32AM (#11641831)
    From the site:"Illegally downloading movies from sites such as these without proper authorization violates the law, is theft, and is not anonymous. Stealing movies leaves a trail. The only way not to get caught is to stop."

    I'm tired reading this sort of stuff again and again. They always forget to mention that it is illegal only in the USA. For example it is perfectly legal to download music or video for personal use in the EU, even with file sharing application where you make it avaliable for 3rd party temporarily. I found even those living in the EU are not aware of this situation, probably due to the continuous MPAA/RIAA threathenings.

    Distributing copyrighted content is a different issue even in the EU, but I'm not familiar with the legal side of that. All I know my movie downloads fall in the "fair use" category according to the current EU copyright law.
    • Re:Only in the USA (Score:5, Informative)

      by doctomoe ( 538769 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:02PM (#11642324)
      This is not entirely true.

      It is true that there are several exceptions to copyright in EU laws, the most important ones being "private copy" and "private use".

      The "private copy" exception only applies if the source of the copy is legal. Making a copy of a bought or borrowed DVD is legal. Making a copy of a copy is illegal if one never had access to the original, unless the original was not protected by copyright or had a licence attached to it that allows for copies to be made. Files distributed on p2p networks are always copies of an original and never an original per se.

      The "private use" exception allows me to use a copyrighted content at home or within my family. I can show a DVD I bought to my family or a group of my friends. However I can't invite a group of 50 random people from the street to watch it with me. In the same way, I can't invite 50 people on the net (p2p) to watch it with me.

      In short, both exceptions fail in the case of p2p networks. There are others, but they don't apply to p2p networks either (for instance copying items for educational purposes).

  • Library analogy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by IgD ( 232964 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:33AM (#11641836)
    This is really troubling. What ever happened to the first amendment? LokiTorrent didn't host any of the illegal contact. How is this different from...?
    - Hosting a list of banned books
    - A library that contains books on how to pick locks

    It seems like the courts often times are fast food restaurants for big corporations. I thought the courts were supposed to be object and ensure the rights of the little guy weren't trampled on??

    The real troubling thing is now from new stories the movie mafia wants to "review log files" and go after people who viewed the site. That's rediculous.

    Another aspect of this is hiring 3rd party companies to collect evidence. For example all these P2P so called monitoring services. Of course they are going to find evidence in favor of the movie mafia since that is what they are being paid to do. Can you imagine Microsoft doing an objective Linux story and revealing that Linux is in fact better? The government needs to collect the evidence and everything else needs to be thrown out.
  • by Cryofan ( 194126 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:35AM (#11641867) Journal
    Just askin', that's all.....

  • by Graemee ( 524726 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:36AM (#11641884)
    Lokitorrent was put up for sale recently, maybe the MPAA bought it for the "settlement" they were looking for from the owner. Could explain the quick turn around in the site to the MPAA banner.

    That way they could still claim he settled with them, and he wouldn't be really paying a large fine they might not have gotten anyway. Smells like a settlement/swap with the logs as the prize for the MPAA.

  • by Laurentiu ( 830504 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:39AM (#11641915)
    It will only take a bit more brains, that's all. The pure pressure of the demand is going to drive the innovation in this "field". Already the trackers go underground, and with a bit of imagination you could see how easily the sites of today could be replaced by (invite-only) IRC channels. Not to mention that the actual distribution network, from rip to release, was NOT touched by MPAA so far, so instead of going after the cause, they try to destroy the effects.

    The day where zombie XP machines will be used in tracker networks is not as far as you think. The chances of stopping that are practically nil. And after a few Joe (Clueless) User types are brought to "justice" (and aquitted),the whole system will fail.

    Meanwhile, MPAA can bust their heads trying to find ways to stop networks like Freenet [sourceforge.net].
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:40AM (#11641933)

    On several BitTorrent and P2P forums we have noticed reports that LokiTorrent actually has been holding out hoping that the MPAA will make an offer to shut them down rather then wage on with the expensive pending lawsuit. We have decided to research this rumor ourselves to see what this popular torrent site is up to. Original this was posted on p2pforum but has vanished... We are posting this story for the public awareness.

    Some things we have noticed about the popular bit torrent site Lokitorrent that have raised some red flags is that they started collecting a US$30,000 legal fund to defend their site before they even were being sued! Even more odd was once they were sued they raised this amount to US$30,000 per month in legal fees plus US$4000 per month in site costs. To us this all sounds kind of fishy. Our question is why?

    After several failed attempts to reach Lokitorrent site admins looking for answers we went and contacted the MPAA which was more than happy to state that yes Lokitorrent and the MPAA were in negotiations and that the current offer could not be disclosed nor could the terms if the deal were to be reached.

    We all know bit torrent site admins take pride in their grassroots, non-profit image however most sites make huge amounts of money. Suprnova which claims to have shutdown due to MPAA pressure and to finish working on their Exeem project for their client is completely just lies. Suprnova was making alot of money. Figure if they had 2,000,000 visitors per day (which is what lokitorrent claims to have, suprnova many estimate had closer to 5,000,000) they would have made close to US$90,000 per month just from per-click ads. Do the math, (all you blog site admins will be kicking yourself because you know this is true) if even only 1.5% (my blog site even gets about 6%, so 1.5% is really low estimate) click an ad, even if by mistake they get an average of $.10 per click so they would be making US$3000 per day times 30 days, not to mention those annoying high paying popups. So now you are asking why would Suprnova shutdown if they were making so much? Well the answer is simple, with Exeem they have much lower costs as their whole system can run on 2 or 3 servers and their effort to maintain those 2 or 3 servers is alot lower as well when you consider they had more then 25 servers going at their peak. Exeem also will make them a ton of money through Cydoor. Some estimate they can easily make $1 per user per day which would put them at close to US$300,000 per day with their current user base. Cydoor is a information harvesting company. They harvest the users info to either sell to marketing companies and spammers or to use your info to hit you with ads directly for their clients. By using Exeem these companies know everything about you just by monitoring your online actions. You go to your email, they now know your email address, you fill in a form they have your name and home address, the information they can harvest is limitless and it is totally legal because when you install Exeem the user license informs you of this if you were to actually read it. If you dont believe us click here and read the part about Cydoor carefully.

    So why do Lokitorrent and Suprnova care so much about the public knowing about all this? They care because if you knew about it their image as being modern day Robinhoods would be tarnished and they would not be able to sucker you their user into donating Thousands of dollars to them.
    Our prediction is this Lokitorrent will sign a deal with the MPAA to shutdown, they will claim to shutdown saying that do to lack of donations they ca not afford to fight the case. The Lokitorrent admins save face with the BitTorrent community and continue their mufftorrent porn site and everyone goes on thinking they were just underdogs that could not afford to fight.
    We would actually like to hear a reply from lokitorrent or suprnova on this actually and we welcome their reply. Again this is all just still brain food and speculation at this point.

    [BitTorrent News, 30 jan]
  • by supergwiz ( 641155 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:41AM (#11641956)
    If they REALLY wanted to scare people this would have been better: D1Z S1Te was PWN3d Bi Da R1AA Cr3W!!! K33p Stealing Our Sh33t n U B3 n3Xt!!!
  • Catch as catch can (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:43AM (#11641994) Homepage Journal
    Where are these BitTorrent servers located? The Internet is "virtual", but the MPAA raids are physical, in one country or another. Loki, SuprNova, others - in which countries are the MPAA moviecops raiding offices? MPAA claims to operate police in at least "Austria, Hong Kong, Finland, France and the Netherlands as movie industry cops [mp3newswire.net]". Which countries now retain their jurisdiction sovereignty, and which are now just muscle for the US adfotainment hegemony?
  • Anonymous P2P (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sheepdot ( 211478 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @11:56AM (#11642189) Journal
    The day has come for Anonymous P2P.

    Why not use technologies like Tor [wikipedia.org] (funded by the US government for FBI and CIA intelligence gathering anonymously), ANTS [wikipedia.org], Entropy [wikipedia.org], and Mnet [mnetproject.org]?
  • by Spy der Mann ( 805235 ) <spydermann.slashdot@ g m ail.com> on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:17PM (#11642584) Homepage Journal
    From TFW:
    "The illegal downloading of motion pictures robs thousands of honest, hard-working people of their livelihood, and stifles creativity."

    Oh boy. I can't wait 'til the MPAA go after the patent offices!
  • by TheKubrix ( 585297 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:29PM (#11642780) Homepage
    According to the google cache [] he was putting the site up for sale [sedo.com].
  • MPAA doublespeak (Score:4, Insightful)

    by payndz ( 589033 ) on Friday February 11, 2005 @12:48PM (#11643042)
    The illegal downloading of motion pictures robs thousands of honest, hard-working people of their livelihood

    Wait, if a film's being downloaded, then it's already been made... so surely all these thousands of people have already been paid?

    and stifles creativity.

    Hollywood's managed that all by itself without any help from downloaders!

To write good code is a worthy challenge, and a source of civilized delight. -- stolen and paraphrased from William Safire