Ballmer and McNealy Smiling Together 278
cahiha writes "Sun and Microsoft are pushing a single sign-on and identity management solution, and the Sun home page has a picture of McNealy and Ballmer smiling together. Yahoo has details on the conflict between the industry giants, and there is more information on the collaboration at the Sun press release page. The press release took place Friday morning." From the article: "The technology news, though, was overshadowed by the joint appearance of McNealy and Ballmer, who until April 2004 were bitter enemies. McNealy once referred to Microsoft's executive team of Ballmer and
Bill Gates as 'Beavis and Butthead.'"
In other news..... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In other news..... (Score:2)
They have to bring Ellison in to complete the quad.
Re:In other news..... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Laugh (Score:2, Insightful)
You better wash your hands of all that evil-supported GNU software then. Oh wait, you mean you didn't realize that without Sun and Solaris that 90% of the FSF software suite wouldn't have had a development platform, back in the day?
Didn't think you did.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Laugh (Score:2)
Since Harmony will open source Java - or force Sun to do so - that's not really relevant.
It's not Java that's evil - depending on your view of the language - it's Sun.
And only those people working at Sun at the top.
Kim Polese, who was the marketing person for Java, is now the CEO of SpikeSource, a totally OSS company.
Re:Laugh (Score:2)
I love how a project that has been barely anounced is already projected to achieve OSS zealots' wildest dreams.
If Harmony is actually fully developed (and that's a big if) and is actually successful at competing with Java (another big if), Sun will still have little to gain in opening Java.
Re:Laugh (Score:2)
Uh, you're missing one word - "yet".
The point is not to trust ANY corporate head - even if they have NEVER done anything wrong and probably never will.
The operative word is "probably". Unless you can nail down the probabilities to a couple percent, trusting a corporate head is just dumb.
Re:Laugh (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the real point is not to trust ANY person with power, in which case, that's actually good advice. Nonetheless, "not trusting" is not the same as "is evil".
BTW "person with power" == Linus, RMS, Red Hat as well as Sun, IBM, etc. If you blindly follow ANY leader, you're a fool.
But clearly the zealots can't get it through their thick heads that demonizing Sun, or IBM, or BitKeeper is no different from demonizing RMS and the FSF. Just as not-reality-base
Re:The beauty of Free Software (Score:3, Insightful)
Software isn't so trivial. There's support staff expertise to build, there's a customer base to build, etc. It isn't like customers like seeing one company vaporize to have another one spring up and say "hey, over here, folks!"
"Free software gives the power to the software engineer."
Not really. We still live in a society where people have to make money. This means working for a company doing their software development or consulting, which usually doesn't mesh with the software engineer's own ideals.
T
Re:The beauty of Free Software (Score:3, Funny)
The only reason people work for companies is lack of imagination.
Of course, there's no shortage of lack of imagination.
Gee, that sounds like a Bushism!
Re:The beauty of Free Software (Score:4, Insightful)
And maybe there are some people who actually LIKE working for companies. Maybe they like the relative security, the human contact, the culture, the well-defined role and responsibility.
The world needs more and better entrepreneurs but lets be serious, not everyone can be, or should be, an entrepreneur.
Re:The beauty of Free Software (Score:3, Insightful)
This is an excellent point. If anyone should be running business (or society in general), it should be the scientists, artists and academics. They are typically not blinded by avarice in the sameway that the average businessman is. Profit is useful, but it should never be the main motivation for doing something. The main motivation should be the further development of mankind so that the totality of the species may expand beyond the confines of ou
Save Us From The Philosopher Kings (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd much rather see a business man in charge of a business (or society in general). It's bad enough when scientists, artists and academics run a business you've invested in, right into the ground, but that's nothing compared to the horrors of the "theocracies" they've lead. Even in spite of their intentions, a realist is usually more benign then an idealist.
They are typically not blinded by
Go on My Sun..... (Score:2, Funny)
Keyboards! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Keyboards! (Score:2)
Re:Keyboards! (Score:3, Insightful)
Caps lock is on the keyboard because there used to be a shift lock on a typewriter keyboard. It was on the typewriter keyboard because there were only two ways of providing emphasis on a typewriter, ALL CAPS and underline. So you quite often typed a lot of capitals in a sequence.
But the trouble with shift lock is that you ended up typing $^&***&^% when you got to any numbers. Shift lock only makes sense when applied to letters, and so the caps lock was born on
Typewriters! (Score:2, Insightful)
But seriously, you have to go back to the old mechanical typewriters, where shift literally shifted the mechanism vertically so that the uppercase portion of the strikers hit the ribbon. The Caps Lock was actually a little mechanical lock that held the shift lever down.
There was also no Enter/Return key. You slapped a big lever up on the carriage, which rotated the drum up a line, and then transferred you slap to the carriage to move it back to the right.
You also had to strike the ke
Re:Keyboards! (Score:5, Funny)
Why is this headline news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft, on the other hand, needs to look more "open" and more "willing to play nicely with competitors". What better way than to find a half-dead ex-competitor, one that won't pose any serious challenge, and start cooperating with them. Maybe this will appease those EU anti-trust people.
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:3, Informative)
You are wrong. Sun has completely turned around their product portfolio in the past several years, is actually gaining customers, and is financially better now than before.
People need to see the bigger picture of the identity management between Sun and Microsoft: SUN RAY. Sun will be able to provide access to Solaris, Linux, and Windows applications all through their thin clients. People who subscribe to a future Sun Ray service in their homes, will be able to access Windows apps on top of the GNOME des
thin clients? (Score:3, Insightful)
BANG!
But seriously, people have been talking about thin clients for a decade, and they never took off. When $200 gets you
Re:thin clients? (Score:3, Informative)
When $200 gets you a really nice commodity PC, there's no real point.
Sun Rays have no moving parts. What's the MTBF on your $200 PC across a company with thousands of desktops? How many dime-store hard drive failures, cheap-o motherboard failures, and non-ECC RAM failures can you handle and still feel your money was well spent?
Sun Rays also seem to have no built-in obselescence. One Sun exec at the press conference says his Sun Ray is from 1997 and still works.
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:2, Insightful)
Uh, yeah. They're now a Linux/AMD shop and can't figure out what to do with Slolaris. Yeah, they're financially better the same way that Carly was good for HP - they layed off anything that gave them intellectual property because it's easier to be a commodity seller.
The funniest thing is their OS strategy - lay off their OS engineers and hope the open source community will build their OS for them, and perhaps Sun'll ju
Being a loyal DEC user (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Being a loyal DEC user (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Being a loyal DEC user (Score:2)
A couple of points of clarification.
I'm not, nor was I ever, a "DEC person". I attended the user meeting because my manager thought I should, and it was a free trip to the left coast where I could visit a couple of friends. :)
I agree with your comment about failing products killing companies. How's Solaris' marketshare doing over these past few years? I know that our IT department is
Who is there to blame but DEC (Score:3, Insightful)
I find your stereotype wrong.
Who is there to blame but DEC for believing Microsoft lies rather than innovating on their business model and attitudes and trying to get ahead of the train again.
There were actual signs hanging above engineer's desks "We're DEC and you are not." and the attitude was pervasive.
They were never willing to go with something new that was not thought of, developed, patented, and otherwise controlled by DEC.
Small wonder when they needed an answer, they thought it would be someone
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:2)
Sun's exit plan. (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's more than that. I think McNealey's not having fun anymore, and hasn't enjoyed himself since the .com bubble. He sees that Jonathan Schwartz sucks as a leader (offends people everytime he opens his mouth), and just wants a way out.
There aren't many ways out for a company the size of Sun; one is being bought by IBM, another is being bought by Microsoft, another is being bought by Fujitsu. I can't think of anyone else out there that would even want them.
Methinks Scott is hoping to sell the thing off and retire.
Re:Sun's exit plan. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sun's exit plan. (Score:2, Interesting)
The history of the "Open Systems" Unix market is that buying out your competitors is a waste of time, because the lock-in factor is rather low. Just wait for them to go under and their customers will migrate to your systems on their own dime.
Re:Sun's exit plan. (Score:2)
Shiny powerbooks and being a metrosexual appeals to the chicks.
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:3, Interesting)
Basically, Sun competes against MS on application development, web development, and office suites. All those are critical to Microsoft; that is nothing to be minimalized.
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:2)
That's not saying a whole hell of a lot, is it? I mean what's #3, wordpervert office? Garbage, pure garbage. I like openoffice and I use it on a regular basis but microsoft orifice is by far the leading office suite and will continue to be in that position until Windows is no longer the dominant desktop/workstation OS.
Re:Why is this headline news? (Score:2)
Schizo (Score:4, Funny)
Microsoft appears to be jumping too quickly getting between "good company" and "bad company" personalities, while Sun's "we're independent and answer to no-one" and "yeah, but we did get $2bn from our biggest competitor" vibrations are reaching breaking point.
How about just explaining what they're doing? (Score:2)
Is that why their announcement is incoherent?
I read the announcement and I read the PDF and I have to say that I know about as much as I did before I started. Can someone decode the acronyms and trademarks and explain just what this Last Great Single Sign On is really about?
Re:How about just explaining what they're doing? (Score:2)
I think they agreed that cookies will be patented.
Strange... (Score:2)
Re:Strange... (Score:2)
I don't know about Shrek but .... (Score:2)
Re:Strange... (Score:2)
In case there was any doubt...
Hello, handsome! [usatoday.com]
Now, seeing him as a Pocket PC desktop picture [pocketthemes.com] was enlightening.
Cooperation or desperation (Score:5, Informative)
I personally hope this isn't the case, I have an old Ultra 10, Ultra 5, a few sparcstations and a sparcbook.. they're great machines. Perhaps a bit overpriced when they were shiny and new, but most exotic hardware is and that's one reason (others: see application availability) that x86 has been so successful- it's cheap. You can build a reliable, stable and fast server for pennies on the dollar on what you might spend on a Sunfire. Good luck, Scott.. you know better than any of us that Microsoft is a difficult company to deal with.. even in the mutual desperation both of your corporations are facing.
Re:Cooperation or desperation (Score:3, Insightful)
you know better than any of us that Microsoft is a difficult company to deal with
Yes they do. Think about it: Sun forced Microsoft to settle for $2 billion regarding Java. Sun is backing OO.org without anyone having sued them. Sun is open sourcing UNIX(TM) this summer.
Sun's lawyers and executives have balls. Even the female ones.
If anything will make Sun succeed it is this ability to deal with the Microsofts and IBMs and survive.
When they first shook hands ... (Score:2)
Using McBride as a mouthpiece is an act of desparation. They were both doing this at the same time.
Re:Cooperation or desperation (Score:2)
A lot of systems architects disagree with you. If your applications allow for it, it's frequently just as cheap to simply go out and buy a number x86 boxes and site them in geographically separate locations. And I don't care what architecture you're using, I guarantee your system won't be much use when some idiot's cut through the fibre coming into the server room.
Re:Cooperation or desperation (Score:2, Informative)
Re: Desperation? MS? (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I think Microsoft sees themself on a precarious perch. They think they keep their domination of the desktop by denying the average customer freedom of choice. Go to a Best Buy or browse Dell.com. We only see Microsoft boxen.
Microsoft has been better at forcing us to use Microsoft products than geting us to want to use Microsoft products. As a result Microsoft is not exaclty loved by a large part of it's customer base. T
Consise transcript ? (Score:2)
Get to the point, asshole !
Wait (Score:2, Funny)
Sun and Microsoft working together... ho hum (Score:2, Interesting)
All this "sign-on" and "identity management" thing is all well and good, but IMHO the home user will benefit more immediately and palpably with interoperability between suites/programs. Maybe Microsoft will actually become "standards compliant" soon....
I thought Passport was dead (Score:5, Insightful)
So in desperation, Sun is reaching for a life preserver made of cast iron.
Of course, this could be an entirely new, unworkable "a single sign-on and identity management solution," that will be just as distrusted and irrelevant as Passport was. People don't even trust Microsoft to handle their e-mail without infecting their machine, much less keeping their "identity" secure.
Re:I thought Passport was dead (Score:2)
"Microsoft pens ID software"> [theinquirer.net] "SOFTWARE GIANT Microsoft is building software it says will manage personal data and provide more secure identification in future versions of Windows. Under the cunning plan, the operating system will have ID technology called "info-cards" which are designed to allow users to shop and access services online. However, the technology appears to be similar to Pas
Re:I thought Passport was dead (Score:3, Interesting)
Here is the latest philosophical trend in Identity, and the founding principles for the SSO and IdM movement of the moment:
The Laws of Identity [identityblog.com]
If you read this, you will see that certain of the digerati are working very hard, even within Microsoft itself, to ensure that future identity systems are exactly the opposite of 'distrusted and irrelevant'....
Pixie
A Smith said (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A Smith said (Score:5, Funny)
Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.
In bed with the devil (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In bed with the devil (Score:2)
Don't bother watching (Score:3, Funny)
Similar Reactions (Score:5, Interesting)
These were huge unexpected changes, but none of these had the visceral impact of seeing Bill Gates on a huge screen over the auditorium and smiling and saying that we're chums with Apple now and that "Microsoft wants Apple to succeed." People were hissing and booing and making overt signs that the apocolypse for Apple had just arrived.
It turns out that either there were other unannounced benefits for Apple or these back room agreements with Microsoft had an even for significant impact because they had very positve results for Apple. But even today, Apple fans still cringe when they see their "resistence fighter" being chummy with one of the leaders of the "Microsoft establishment".
For Sun devotees, it's probably an equally unsettling bit of public relations. But lets hope that Microsoft gave up quite a bit more in those smokey back room deals that will benefit Sun, now that Sun appears to have come out of the closet at a full-blown "friend of Microsoft" now.
Re:Similar Reactions (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been using linux for a long time, since about '92. (I should be a lot better at it than I am -- I'm not claiming any kind of geek mastery over it.)
And for almost all of that time it's been about the software and not the license. I always thought the free software fanatics were, well, fanatics. Ideologues.
I don't think that any more. In the end, the only software that's perfectly alined with its users' interests is open source.
It's usually not described in these terms, but defining characteristic of open source is that the owners or creators have given away their ability to control how people use the software.
Out of the big guys in silicon valley, gates is probably one of the better ones. Personally, I'd rather hang out with him than with Jobs. I always imagine Jobs sitting in a chair with disciples gathered around his feet. Ellison must be a nightmare.
Gates is the worst only because he's the biggest and most powerful. If Jobs was the biggest and most powerful, he'd be the worst.
I used to run a business on sparc servers. I like Sun and their technology. But Sun is looking out for Sun, and they always will, and if it's in their interests to throw me under the train, they will.
Debian *can't* throw me under the train. They've signed away all the rights they'd need to be able to do it.
It's not about whether or not the guys at the top are good or bad. It's that they're in roles that simply shouldn't exist. That's the problem with google's ambitious plans. The guys who run google are great -- they probably go out on sunday's and wash the feet of the poor. But they're amassing a lot of power over information, and the mass itself isn't a good thing.
Unified Java? (Score:5, Insightful)
Putting aside the important considerations around free/open software, it could make a lot of people's lives simpler. Its not that Java isn't already rich and cross platform, it would just be a next step in unification and perhaps make development for small devices for example easier.
But due to their contexts, I wouldn't fully trust either company, and especially both, to carry the flag for a unified development environment, just like I'm sure this latest cooperation will yield to some selling out of purely technical or ethical concerns. "Liberty Alliance" (groan) appeared to be much more important than MS' solution, with much more real third party participation, so this is a consolidation that will have repurcussions. The third party opinions and participation of interested parties like geeks is still important to prevent sneaking in designs intended purely for the benefit of MS and Sun, rather than contributing to developments that are generally useful.
Re:Unified Java? (Score:2)
This could be good news (Score:2)
If it really is free, as the above suggests, this could be a nice component of single signon. (I haven't read all of it - yet)
However Microsoft's site does not mention it (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a thought... (Score:4, Interesting)
By being compatible with Windows, Sun keeps vitality in the enterprise domain. By working with F/OSS they keep vitality in the home pc domain. Now, vitality in this case may mean only survivability. None the less, it keeps Sun active on two fronts in the software wars.
If both Sun and Microsoft develop single sign-on and other compatability efforts, surely the F/OSS world will gain from this?
If Sun is attacking Microsoft's grip on the software industry by playing both sides against the middle, they stand to gain in the aftermath of any battle over any facet of software in the general marketplace. Someone has to end up making money from all this F/OSS effort. RedHat is not doing too badly, and there seems to be room for at least one more *nix player in the Enterprise domain.
This of course might be totally wrong, but I can see big iron vendors spending much more time working with F/OSS and at the same time, not starting any new battles head-on with Microsoft.
There is a certain danger to ignoring the
SCO seems to have made itself irrelevant by playing things the old school way. It didn't go well for them. Perhaps this is also written on the board room walls at Sun? Billion dollar lawsuits are not very popular these days.
Whatever the outcome, it looks to me like F/OSS is having a positive effect on the software industry as a whole, and we can now see very big vendors trying to find a place in the new marketplace of the software industry.
The one thing that I think will make a *nix distribution stable enough for the Enterprise market is the backing / support of a very big vendor that already knows how to make enterprise class software and computing systems. There is still room for a Solaris in the enterprise, and if 10 installed a bit better with more support for my hardware, I'd be running it at home.
I personally would like to see Sun make a better offering in the free OS realm. Solaris is a very stable OS, despite any objections that some might have. I'd definitely test anything that Sun supports or assists with.
If they can work out the wrinkles with Microsoft, and keep things stable for a bit, it seems possible that Sun could be working to pull off the theft of a bigger marketshare from Microsoft.
Just my thoughts.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2)
I don't suppose you would consider IBM to be a very big vendor that already knows how to make enterprise class software? One that has already made substantial enterprise-level contributions to the Linux code base?
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2)
My prediction is small enterprise inroads while trying to solidify a home/SMB user base. In the background, I think we will see Microsoft opponents working to establish F/OSS (supported by big
New version of Windows based on Solaris announced. (Score:4, Funny)
Taking another cue from the upstart in Cupertino, Microsoft and Sun announced today that work is underway on a new vapor of Windows based on Solaris for high end workstations in scientific computing and multimedia production. It will have the familliar interface of Windows XP with a few snazzy extras, but the underpinnings will be made of Sun's industrial strength Solaris version of Unix. It will be available first on Sun branded Opteron workstations and servers.
The hardware platform, designed by Sun, will be the most advanced PC architecture yet. It will only support PCI-X or USB2 peripherals, and will repair itself. Scott McNealy says "We have actually trained [capuchin] [wikipedia.org] monkeys who are administering our development servers right now. This drives down the TCO to the tune of nuts and berries in addition to the initial purchase cost."
The development environment for the platform is based on Dot Net, with a Sun licensed Java extension so that developers can write programs in Visual Basic, Java, or C# which will only run on the new environment. The new tools are being developed offshore in Hindi and Mandarin with english versions not due out for up to two years later.
The product is codenamed WinX (pronounced "Whence?"), and will be available at the same time Longhorn is released, probably later this year and will be much, much cooler than Apple's highly touted Tiger version of Mac OS X. Steve Jobs' reacted: "In the kitchen, Microsoft only knows how to make a shit sandwich, and they keep making bigger and bigger ones. Unfortunately, if we want to eat we all have to take a bite. I think they know that, and that's why I suggested Steve [Ballmer] reclaim the name 'Wince' from the handheld market. That's what it makes me want to do! He [Ballmer] laughed."
This makes sense.... (Score:3, Insightful)
A case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Maybe......
Re:This makes sense.... (Score:2)
Revenge of the Sith (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh hold on, this is not coming from the Cannes festival...
Re:Revenge of the Sith (Score:2, Funny)
Liberty ID-FF and WS-* (Score:3, Informative)
Won't somebody think of the kids?! (Score:3, Funny)
A. Ballmer and McNealy (Score:4, Funny)
Almost seriously... they put a photo on the front page and they couldn't find a better one?
I won't even think about the ethical and technical side of things. We're obviously doomed.
Get with it! (Score:5, Informative)
The reason why this is news, is that both companies, along with a ton of other groups of all sorts of sizes and purposes, have been working on creation of standards that will allow web authentication on the internet to cross boundaries of OS platform, browser platform, and development platform. The Metadata Exchange and Interop protocols are just two of a whole HOST of protocols that are going to link everything up.
Some of you will say - who cares? But the technology they are working on now will be used in the future by most people, on most platforms, to access protected web content.
That's pretty big. This little niche of the industry is set to explode into mainstream consciousness, just wait and see...
If you want to be ahead of the curve:
Check out the Fact Sheet [sun.com] from the MS-Sun announcement.
Check out the WS-* White Paper [ibm.com]
Check out Microsoft's Vision For an Identity Metasystem [microsoft.com]
Check out the Liberty Alliance Technology Review [projectliberty.org]
And if prefer blogs to White Papers, check out Kim Cameron's Blog [identityblog.com]. That's really the happening place in Identity Management right now...
Pixie
Re:Get with it! (Score:2)
Go ahead, support your favorite monopoly. Trust them. They always do what's best for the people. Because they love you.
dream on (Score:2)
Yeah, because it's so convenient if my on-line book store, my on-line porn site, and my work-related on-line services can exchange information about me with each other, right?
Dream on. People are not going to trust anybody, least of all Microsoft or Sun, to provide secure and private identity management via back-end servers. If companies are going to try to force peop
huh huh huh... uh.. this sucks, Beavis.. (Score:2)
Oh my... (Score:2, Insightful)
Besides, browsers such as Mozilla already have the capability of storing your login info -- LOCALLY, UNDER YOUR CONTROL, not at some distant and super major coropration.
Well, the choice is yours, folks. Centralized login, and all that implies, or decentralized and less vu
Re:Oh my... (Score:2)
Browsers such as Mozilla can store cookies, that's all they do. Or maybe some other kind of local state mechanism, but none of these, all by themselves, are a dagburn bit of good if you want to authenticate against common directory servers, which are widely used to store user information and credentials. Common directory servers such as Mic
Re:Oh my... (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ballmer's "smile" does not appear genuine (Score:2)
microsofts new pawn (Score:2, Interesting)
It's about developers, developers, developers (Score:2, Funny)
beavis and butthead? (Score:2)
Damn, I just looked again and McNealy seriously could play a 50 year old Butthead, what with that raised upper lip and all. Just picture it [cell2000.net].
A way to stop OpenOffice? (Score:2)
signs of the times (Score:4, Insightful)
For them to be reduced to to this, kissing up to the peecee monopolist, is a saddening spectacle. IMHO it's a sign that sun is not long for this world, at least not the sun that we know.
We've seen the pattern repeated in the past, with one hapless company after another lining up for the same treatment, getting in bed with microsoft, taking a wad of cash and giving up far more than they realize, fading into irrelavance shortly thereafter.
Sun, it was good to know you - although we didn't always see eye to eye, it can't be denied that you contributed a lot to the internet and the unix community.
R.I.P.
Re:Revenge is best served HOT! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Revenge is best served HOT! (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, Ballmer has his had FIRMLY gripping McNealy's nut sack. I smell a buyout soon...
Revenge of the Shit (Score:5, Funny)
Stallman: The dark side of the Source is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... free (as in beer and in freedom).
n00b: Is it possible to learn those powers?
Stallman: Not from a MSCE.
Re:Money unites. (Score:2)
Re:Money unites. (Score:2)
Re:Money unites. (Score:2)
(As I was looking around I saw this [theregister.co.uk] which, while offtopic, is pretty funny.)
Besides, they've smiled together before [microsoft.com].
Re:The end is near. (Score:2)