Microsoft Plans Hypervisor for Longhorn 384
ninjee writes "Microsoft reiterated plans to launch its own Windows-based 'hypervisor' software for running multiple operating systems. Bob Muglia, senior vice president in the Windows Server Division, said on Tuesday that the software will be 'built directly in Windows and will allow companies to virtualize multiple operating systems.' "
just wondering... (Score:5, Funny)
"Hi! It looks like you're trying to load an alternate operating system."
But seriously, folks (Score:2, Funny)
Windows, now newer and better tasting! It slices, dices, and now also controls all your other Operating Systems!
Sources not included, some assimilation required.
Re:just wondering... (Score:2)
Re:just wondering... (Score:2)
Re:just wondering... (Score:5, Informative)
Oh really? [polkaroo.net]
Unix Support? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2)
It sounds like something they'd wanna do, but given their antitrust history, they'd be damn stupid to...
What history? You mean the history where they manipulated/faked evidence, thumbed their nose at the judicial system, totally ignored the first antitrust case on their way to the second, finally were sentenced to be broken into two companies, and then were completely and totally let off the hook with a slap on the wrist when the current administration came in and started their love-fest?
Microsoft hasn'
Re:Unix Support? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:3, Interesting)
The only way you can say this is by being so utterly myopic about the software industry that you have absolutely no clue about what is happening in any other.
Monsanto is engineering agricultural dependence on their products. In a far more insidious way than Microsoft is. There is absolutely no comparison.
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:4, Funny)
(of course, it probably won't run Mac OS X/Intel, which will most likely require some sort of special hardware, be it a custom firmware or chipset, to run, just to ensure that you're using an actual Mac)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Mac On Intel, slightly off topic (Score:2)
Re:Mac On Intel, slightly off topic (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2)
At best it will slow things down so as to be uncomfortable to use.
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2)
Maybe that's the "feature that would require Windows?"
Re:Unix Support? (Score:3, Funny)
Hypervizer ain't done 'til Linux won't run... (Score:2)
Re:Hypervizer ain't done 'til Linux won't run... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Unix Support? (Score:2)
Sounds more like an attack on WINE (Score:3, Interesting)
Honestly, though, this looks more like an attack against WINE. If you run WINE within Linux, you don't need a license for Windows. If you run UNIX within Windows, you still need to have a Windows license. You'll get the same effect - Windows and Linux on the same system - either way; however, ther
Right.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Right.... (Score:3, Funny)
Ob: MCP joke... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Right.... (Score:2)
Hope not! Given that Microsoft bought Connectix (the Virtual PC developer) a while back, they should have the expertise to build something that won't be another vector for worms and viruses. I don't recall Virtual PC needing to be built into Windows to work well.
Re:Right.... (Score:2)
You obviously don't understand Microsoft innovation [see: marketing spin] very well. Else you would realize that there has never been anything like this. Oh, the unfettered and anticipatory rapture of the user community. Only as a symbiotic component of the operating system can such a marvelous capability be offered to the millions of Windows users. And it can be yours! Yours for the small additional sum of $129 over and above the pri
Great ! (Score:5, Funny)
Good Luck (Score:2, Funny)
Not quite (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
Microsoft's rival in this area is shaping up to be Xen [...] Xen doesn't yet support Windows, however
AFAIK Xen actually does support Windows, and it's not exactly a rival because it was originally sponsored by Microsoft Research - here is a relevant link [lwn.net]
Having said this, I'm still convinced that full virtualization is the wrong approach and the separation technologies such as Linux VServer, FreeBSD jails or Solaris Containers will ultimately kill hypervizors.
Re:Not quite (Score:2)
Re:Not quite (Score:2)
So when is Linux VServer going to be merged into the official Linux tree or supported by a major distro?
With respect to Linux tree, based on this [linux-vserver.org] coment by Herbert who is the main VServer developer, probably not as soon as we all would like. I think at this point the main kernel developers do not understand the value a project like this brings to Linux.
As far as a major distro - it works with any distro already.
Re:Not quite (Score:2, Interesting)
As an aside I would be very interested in the pro's and con's of the Xen type virtualisation method versus the VMware ESX type method, especially regarding inter-image security.
Be alert, the world needs more ler
Xen vs. VMWare ESX (Score:5, Informative)
Xen: paravirtualisation - modify the architecture dependent code of an OS so that it's hypervisor-aware
Pros:
* near-native performance
* simpler hypervisor
Cons:
* need to be able to port OSes (i.e. can't run Windows)
- NB this will be solved on Intel Vanderpool / AMD Pacifica CPUs
* need to run a non-standard kernel
- NB Xen support is integrated into the NetBSD mainline already and will be in the Linux mainline soon(ish). At that point, the Xen-aware kernel will be standard
VMWare (and MS Hypervisor, assuming it supports full virtualisation): full virtualisation - fake out an x86 machine in its entirety
Pros:
* Run Windows
* No kernel patching needed
Cons:
* Peformance penalty for kernel-intensive and IO intensive workloads
- NB VMWare mitigates this somewhat using custom VMWare-aware drivers to improve IO performance
- NB The MS Hypervisor provides these virtual drivers AND explicit APIs like Xen, so ported OSes can avoid these penalties
* Hypervisor is more complex
- NB nothing you can do about this if you want to support unmodified OSes on vanilla x86(_64)
The Xen and MS Hypervisors both have better hardware support than VMWare ESX because they run standard drivers in a virtual machine, rather than supporting them in the hypervisor itself. Note that VMWare GSX and Workstation don't have this problem because they run inside a host OS.
HTH,
Mark
Re:Not quite (Score:2)
FAQ: Xen FAQ [xensource.com]
Perhaps it's out of date?
Re:Not quite (Score:3, Informative)
Full virtualisation under Xen (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not quite (Score:2)
FreeBSD jails etc are an operating system running on the same operating system.
Or to be more precise it just runs one kernel, but separates processes which creates the appearance of virtualization.
Like it or not, many people have a need to run multiple different operating systems.
Well - the main advantage of virtualization is efficient hardware use and streamlined administration. Efficient hardware use appeals to server-farm environments that run hundreds or thousands of servers and can save a
Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
I'd suggest Xen is less competition to this new initiative and more a learning opportunity for all involved parties to determine ways to integrate virtualized operating systems.
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Informative)
Translation for normal people: Xen doesn't support Windows.
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
Code for using Vanderpool extensions is in the Xen tree right now, contributed mostly by Intel. It's not quite ready to run Windows yet (various 16 bit functionality still needs to be implemented) but it's getting there.
Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Certainly not OSX/x86- we know Apple wouldn't allow that.
Certainly not any *nix- lest they intentionally break and cripple it as some sort of "self-justification tool"
Other Windows Oses? I.E., XP on top of Longhorn? Win98 on top of LongHorn? If Longhorn is properly done, they won't need this for "compatibility", especially in light that XP already does this.
(seriousness over)
Or maybe it is to run the up and coming, resource-hungry SymantecOS that underlies the Norton Internet Security Suite.
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Windows 2003 Server, for old apps.
A few isolated copies of Longhorn Server, so when one crashes it doesn't take out the others.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Imagine a separate mail server, web server, terminal server, etc. all running on the same hardware, with support for migrating -- live! -- any particular OS instance over to different hardware (on the same SAN) if you're so inclined.
Well, I'd hope they could provide that latter feature -- Xen does.
Doesn't play nice with others (Score:2)
Re:Doesn't play nice with others (Score:2)
This is a problem, but the Xen folks have managed to successfully sell it to everyone as a feature since a side effect of this lack of virtualization is that the emulation runs somewhat faster, but with questionable compatibility.
GJC
yes! (Score:5, Funny)
It will also allow you to:
reintermediate enterprise markets
synergize synergistic metrics
strategize vertical e-commerce
deploy viral bandwidth
and lastly...
unleash user-centric portals
Re:yes! (Score:2, Funny)
It will also allow you to:
reintermediate enterprise markets
synergize synergistic metrics
strategize vertical e-commerce
deploy viral bandwidth
and lastly...
unleash user-centric portals
And I thought reading my old perl code was hard!
You should... (Score:2)
Re:yes! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:yes! (Score:2)
Well, how would you describe it? "virtualize multiple operating systems" is exactly what it is doing.
All that other stuff is voodoo horse crap double talk. But in this case, they happen to be running multiple operating systems in separate virtual spaces. There is no better way to describe it.
Re:yes! (Score:2)
Charges (Score:2)
Other OSes or (Score:2)
"oh it doesn't work on XP, send us £100 for Windows 98 and install it".
VMware? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, yeah, VMware is not free (as in beer), and it is closed source (AFAIK). Nor is it built in to the OS. But I think it has strong support and probably a large customer base.
Comments?
Re:VMware? (Score:5, Informative)
Advantage: provided it's simulation is good, everything that runs on the real hardware runs in the virtual machine
Disadvantage: that compatability comes at a significant runtime cost, which makes VMWare mainly used only for testing purposes, not for running multiple OSes for general work.
Hypervisors (like Xen) and what MS is claiming (I will believe this when we see it given the list of things they've dropped) use a technique called paravirtualisation to vastly reduce the speed problems. However, this requires support from the host OS. The Xen performance page (http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/p
Re:VMware? (Score:4, Informative)
This is not strictly true. It runs most of the instruction set natively, but emulates those portions of it that must run in supervisor mode.
Unfortunately this is complicated by the fact that some of the x86 instructions cannot be easily detected at runtime. This is one of the ways Xen simplifies things, by basically removing those tricky instructions from the instruction set and executing them only in the hypervisor.
Re:VMware? (Score:2)
I love it. It's amazing how fast windows performs on it. I can't say it's at native speed, but it is close. It's also really, really easy to backup. And the snapshot feature is nice, but it's kind of annoying that it restores your _
Implications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are Microsoft admitting a mainstream demand for coexistance between non-microsoft operating systems on the same pc, and even demand for alternative operating systems by including these features, or are they hedging their bets to become a good 'host' OS, so as to ensure users stay primarily on Windows but virtualize other OS's to access their strengths.
It doesnt immediately seem clear from the article how other operating systems will be permitted, and it could be the case that the software approves what operating systems will boot within it. I wonder how this development will affect VMware, as it is one of the few end-user virtualization software companies left given Microsoft's acquisition of Connectix and Virtual PC
Re:Implications? (Score:2)
As a web developer, I have to care about how my sites work and look in IE 5, IE 5.5 and IE 6 (as well as Firefox, Moz, and sometimes Opera). It's much nicer being able to do that on a single machine, than having to have several physical machines set aside for the task.
Now it is up to us. (Score:2)
What about licensing? (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you have to buy a new $800 server license every time you create a new VM? If not, is someone going to bother to tell the online activation system about this?
Let's say you have an ISP, and you want to sell hosting with IIS and MS-SQL to your customers. It would be great if you could use virtualization software to partition the machine -- it would make it easier to manage and more secure.
All the tools you need to do this now are available -- VMWare will do it.
But you can't, because you'd go broke. You have to buy a copy *per customer*.
Meanwhile, I can buy an account at a vps provider (mine is linode.com) for $20/month, and run my own web server and database engine just fine.
They have to address the licensing, or it won't fly.
So, if I get the article right: (Score:2)
Microsoft is announcing that their next version of Windows will have the same technology as Xen - but better! Hey, don't use that Xen crap now - just wait for our upcoming technology! I mean, it's not like we just announce technology years in advance in order to make people think that a current competitor isn't going to be around i
Re:So, if I get the article right: (Score:2)
More innovation? (Score:2, Insightful)
This sounds a lot like they're trying to steal VMWare's [vmware.com] market and integrate it right into the OS. More innovation - just like their built-in web browser, upcoming antivirus protection, firewall, and now virtual machines. Anyone still want to claim this this isn't an illegal leverage of their OS monopoly?
Re:More innovation? (Score:2)
Besides, MS already has a virtual server program called Microsoft Virtual Server 2005. It's decent, but has more overhead than VMWare. The benefit is that it's a hell of a lot easier to get running and keep running than VMWare.
Also, linux comes prepackaged with a firewall product and I don't hear anyone complaining about that. I think the big point you should be making is th
This isn't about multiple OSs: (Score:3, Insightful)
A good move (Score:3, Interesting)
Intel Mac too? (Score:2)
The simple reason for requiring VT is to get MS Windows support. Windows would run in another VM. A virtual graphics card would then make it appear inside the Mac display.
Running an SMB server interally allows
Nothing concrete yet... (Score:3, Insightful)
If I had to guess, I'd say they're just restating this in light of Apple's announcement in order to head off people who might be thinking about running OS X and Windows on the same box (which doesn't make sense to me, since those who'd want to run multiple MS OSes are not the same people who'd want an OS X desktop, but then, I don't speak Marketing).
DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Their Hypervisor will enforce DRM, so even linux can't override it.
They'll make it so all device drivers must be signed to go into the Hypervisor which will be the only thing with any I/O privs that aren't virtualized.
They'll make it so new hardware has closed interfaces and can only be supported by a driver at the Hypervisor level.
Any drivers in any OS level won't be able to circumvent the DRM, since they'll just THINK they are talking to hardware, but will get virtual hardware instead - and the Hypervisor won't let it read any protected content through the virtual I/O, it will blank it out (e.g. all zero bytes from the "soundcard") or something similar.
The drivers designed for the Hypervisor won't work in any higher level, since they'll need to do a crypographic handshake with the hardware to verify it is "real" and the hardware will also monitor bus activity so it'll know if any extraneous activity is occur (as it would if it was being virtualized).
Everything will have a standard interface to the O/S, so Linux will still run but be very limited and slowed down - since only Windows will be allowed "preferred" access to hardware, other O/S will be deliberately crippled.
They'll say you can still run Linux.
Hardware manufacturers won't release specs, they'll say use the Hypervisor and you can still use Linux.
You'll still need to buy Windows to use any hardware - Linux won't even boot on the raw hardware.
MS doesn't care if Linux isn't killed - the above allows them lock in - no windows - your PC won't boot - since nothing but the Hypervisor will know how to talk to the IDE card, etc.
What about manufacturers that want to support open interfaces, etc? Microsoft will deny them a key which they will need to talk to the Hypervisor - and the Hypervisor will refuse to talk to them.
Support anything other than solely the Hypervisor and you can't use the Hypervisor. No Windows - lose too many sales.
And they can say other O/S's are still allowed.
They'll just not be able to give you freedom to use your hardware as you see fit (DRM, need to pay more to get software to unlock other features on your hardware), only Windows will run well, and you need a Windows license and Hypervisor for every PC or else it is unbootable.
Re:DRM (Score:2)
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
- I couldn't imagine that Apple will build a box that requires Hypervisor to run.
- I couldn't imagine IBM will build servers that require Hypervisor to run.
- I couldn't imagine HP will build machines that require Hypervisor to run.
These three companies have a vested interest in _not_ allowing Microsoft the kind of power that you are suggesting.
Is this based on Virtual PC IP? (Score:2)
At the time, lots of people thought MS was just going to kill VPC off quietly, but it appears that they're using the technology in lots of unanticipated ways. While VPC was a decent solution for running x86 on PowerPC, it excels at virtualizing several machines on one physical x86 box.
The Secret Security Plan (Score:2)
Sure Windows has security flaws. But how could anything possibly get through TWO layers of Windows!! You'll browse and read email in one Windows while high above the Hypervisor and Master Windows laugh at the spyware crawling far below it.
Pinky, are you thinking what I'm thinking? (Score:5, Funny)
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but won't Bill have to divorce Darl McBride first?
Crow T. Trollbot
Convenience of Linux + stability of Windows! (Score:2, Funny)
What I want in a hypervisor (Score:3, Interesting)
It's perfectly fine for a hypervisor to be based on an NT or Linux kernel, but I don't want it to have anything user interface except what is needed to control the VMs, configure the underlying hardware, and store the VM settings and drive images. No explorer.exe or calc.exe for example, and for certain no iexplore.exe or word.exe. A locked-down apache.exe or iis.exe to allow remote-control that serves up web pages to VMs or, optionally (disabled by default) a system-administrator's box elsewhere on the net is acceptable. There's no reason the binaries for a hypervisor can't be burned into ROM or stored on a read-only drive or CD, with just the VM setup files and disk images writable. Need to fix a bug? Flash your ROM or change CDs.
Heck, Microsoft could make some real money selling a Linux/Unix/Apple-friendly hypervisor to hardware OEMs for $10 a pop, then sell guest licenses for $BIG_BUCKS per concurrent-use license. Enforcing concurrent uses on the same machine or LAN shouldn't be a problem, Novell did it in the '80s with serial-number-checking - if you put two instances of the same serial number on the same LAN Bad Things happened.
-----------
Damn these human-detectors [slashdot.org] are hard to read. Where's the "play audio" button?
Re:What I want in a hypervisor (Score:3, Informative)
Both Xen and the MS Hypervisor (why can't they give it a name I can use!??!?!?!) are to be a "thin" layer (Xen will likely be smaller, IMO, as it won't support full virtualisation without hardware support. They'll both be very lowlevel, anyhow) that just multiplexes low level resources: CPU, memory, interrupts...
However, that doesn't give you the complete virtualisation sy
Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:2)
Xen is not a true hypervisor, since it doesn't fully virtualize all aspects of the host machine. It is necessary to change the code of the guest operating system so that it can be run on Xen.
Go ahead, mod me down for daring to speak against the favorite project of the day, but we all know it's true.
GJC
Re:Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand why you posted this and you were right a few months ago however recently thanks to Intel's VT extensions Xen became capable of full virtualization.
It's all sort of a moot point though because almost noone does full virtualization. VMware uses paravirtual drivers to increase performance and Linux on power has had hypervisor aware code for quite some time.
The reality of it is that you basically ca
Re:Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:2, Interesting)
And now for something completely different...
People from L4Ka have built a pre-virtualizer, which allows to easily compile virtualizable kernels from unmodified source, which can be then run on Xen or L4Ka microkernel.
Pre-virtualization with Compiler Afterburning [l4ka.org]
Re:Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:5, Informative)
Nevertheless:
* I'd consider Xen a true hypervisor because it runs on the "bare metal" and multiplexes multiple "supervisor" kernels on top of itself.
* It was *not* designed as a full virtualising hypervisor, however.
* Paravirtualising gives better performance than full virtualisation on x86 - however full virtualisation is still nice for running things like Windows.
* Full virtualisation will be available on Intel Vanderpool / AMD Pacifica machines. Before those are ubiquitous, if you want to run virtualised Windows with maximal performance, yes, you should run VMWare
Re:Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:5, Interesting)
* drivers run in a guest OS, not in the VMM itself
* guests can be ported to the VMM the achieve better performance (yes, MS are doing it. They call it "enlightenments". Hmmm. Doesn't Zen have something to do with enlightenment?)
* special VMM virtual devices for better performance
These characteristics are also shared by IBM's POWER hypervisor on pSeries.
Re:Xen is not a true hypervisor (Score:3, Informative)
Xen will also use this hardware support to fully virtualise but won't require it for ported OSes.
This makes the picture rather different to how I expected it to be.
Fond Memories of Commodore Amiga (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes (Score:5, Funny)
All at the same time!
And hypervisor is just the working name. The final product will be called KlustrPhuk.
Brilliant! (Score:2)
So they have time for this but not WinFS? (Score:5, Insightful)
That says that it is strategically very important to Microsoft.
I don't think the name is Hypervisor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yay! (Score:2)
Re:Yay! (Score:2)
I might run a Windows version or two under vmware hosted on OS X or Linux. I could use it for testing, a nice honeypot, running Windows-only applications like games I just can't live without etc. Who in their right mind would run a stable, secure OS in a virtual machine of Windows though? I mean it would allow worms, trojans, viruses, and other malware to hose your network and you machine's performance, not to mention corrupt your data. No way! Windows runs in a locked down jail with limited privileges
Re:Yay! (Score:2)
Re:Virtua(wha) (Score:5, Funny)
In short, you hate when people verbize stuff.
Re:Virtua(wha) (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Virtua(wha) (Score:2)
Re:i wonder if (Score:3, Informative)
-Alpha
-PPC
-MIPS
-x86
IA64 support started a *very* long time ago, and x86-64 basically took the shortest time (you only basically need to recompile using a good optimizer, and change some code to take advantage of some new features... the big problem is changing the ASM code in the kernel/hal, but there isn't much of that.
MIPS/Alpha/PPC support was officially cut during the Win2K beta, but Microsoft has been keeping priva