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The Internet Technology

VoIP Providers Worry as FCC Clams Up 204

Posted by samzenpus from the 911-404-error dept.
phoneboy writes "By the end of next week, Voice over IP providers must advise all subscribers of any 911 service limitations and get "affirmative acknowledgment" that customers understand that VoIP 911 service is not the same as landline 911 by July 29. What happens if the customers don't affirm? The FCC isn't saying."
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VoIP Providers Worry as FCC Clams Up More

VoIP Providers Worry as FCC Clams Up

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  • Article Summary (Score:2, Insightful)

    by hjo3 ( 890059 )
    VoIP providers don't know what's gonna happen. Lots of lawyers try to pretend they know. FCC sticks with "no comment." In the end, everyone does whatever they want.

  • I'll tell you what happens.. (Score:5, Informative)

    by MoceanWorker ( 232487 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @04:38AM (#13122346) Homepage
    As a Vonage customer.. I have received numerous notifications (ok, i'm lazy) to activate the E911. Just last week, I got what I perceive as threats from Vonage, claiming that if i DON'T activate my E911 service, they WILL discontinue my service immediately.

    I understand their reason for pushing this, but the discontinuation is such a lazy way for them to just say "ok, so when the FCC checks us out, we don't have to worry about that guy because they won't know if he did/didn't sign up for E911".. problem solved, sadly..

    This should be totally optional to the customer. If they don't want to set it up.. fine.. that's their problem, not OURS..

    Vonage.. your prices are great.. your image as a company not giving into the FCC and protecting your customers.. horrible..

    • Re:I'll tell you what happens.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by onion2k ( 203094 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @04:48AM (#13122370) Homepage
      No. It really should not be up to the customer, simply because if there's an emergency you might have someone else trying to use your phone. If you slip and impale yourself in the neck on a kitchen knife a friend of yours might try to call help on your phone.. because, quite rightly, everyone expects every single phone everywhere should be able to call 911 at any time.
      • I agree but I think there is something that needs to be addressed as well with voip. The fact that you need to provide your address.

        I don't how 911 determines where you live but I assume it has to do with caller-id connected to a database of addresses. Can someone clarify why they (the voip companies) can't provide necessary info for 911?
        • Which address do I tell the VOIP service to pass onto 911?

          Using a laptop and roaming means I may connect from anywhere.
          Its useless sending emergency services to my home when I'm lying in a ditch somewhere.
          • the same one cell phones do: a GPS address.

            the only problem is they would then be required to build GPS into all of the VoIP phones/equipment...
            • And what if I'm using my VoIP phone in my basement... no GPS signal there. Or in a large building, no signal there. There is no reliable way at this time to give an accurate physical location automatically to a 911 call centre when you are using VoIP. Canada went through this same issue recently and the CRTC decided that VoIP providers had to inform customers of these limitations. In fact, most VoIP providers have had to setup call centers that will take the initial 911 call, and by hand, route the call

          • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

            by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) * on Thursday July 21, 2005 @08:08AM (#13123274)
            Comment removed based on user account deletion
            • Obviously, if you use your VoIP as a mobile phone, which is, frankly, bizarre

              Why is that bizarre? Personally, I find the idea that I should have to stop carrying my notebook PC with me after installing a software phone on it to be a bizarre idea. Seems like portability is the whole pointto me.

          • I am looking at voip as a replacement for POTS at home. Not for roaming per se but you make a good point. But unless you have something impaled through your throat in the ditch you should be able to tell them where you are anyways. By at least setting up a default address it deals with this one shortcoming with 911.

            VOIP providers should be able to set a default address to provide to 911 and if I don't say otherwise it should be assumed to send someone to that address. Obviously 911 staff needs to be educat

        • Re:I'll tell you what happens.. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by kesuki ( 321456 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @06:11AM (#13122624) Journal
          It's more than just 'normal caller id' ever called a pizza place? if you've enver ordered from them, they ask you your address... they have caller id on the computers they use to take the orders..

          911 operation centers have a customer address database, provided to them by the telcos, governed by FCC rules. and 911 center calls are treated differently than normal calls too, they get the highest routing priority (meaning if you've been chatting on a circuit for hours on end*, and the circuits are 'loaded' and someone tries to call 911, your call will get dropped) In addition, if you've opted to have your caller id blocked completely (not even a number shows up) your number will Still Show up for 911 operations.

          This is all because of FCC regs. And yeah, DSL uses a circuit too, but telcos went whole hog increasing the number of circuits available because of dialup, and the fact that many people continue to use dialup.. and modern systems no longer require the dialup isp to maintin a seperate circuit for each and every dialup user, because they have a 'digitial' connection... Also DSL can optionally be a 'dedicated' circuit meaning every other non dedicated circuit would have to be occupied by a 911 call for it to be dropped. something that can happen, in a disaster.. but not normally.

          *= this happened a lot when i used dialup, every 2-3 days or so, circuits would get loaded for whatever reason, and my call would get dropped because it became lowest priority, if circuits cleared i would reconnect, but sometimes it took 5 or more minutes for enough circuits to clear...
          • DSL doesn't use a circuit in the sense you mentioned. It uses the wires to your house, but as soon as it hits the CO it is routed onto a data network. Even if they have calls on the same network, the data would be slowed or delayed, but the DSL line wouldn't get disconnected.
          • And that is why I asked for clarification. I assumed it was more than caller id. But the question is how does it work? Can't the VOIP providers emulate whatever signal the phone company sends to the 911 service?

      • Can't vonage be used without hooking it up to a phone?

      • It already is up to me as a customer. I don't have a landline or VOIP, thus no 911. What would the goverment do, break down my door, and hold me at bay by gun point while they install a giant red telephone for direct 911 access?

        Regardless of all the avenues government is trying to act without regard to consumer choices, via the "municipal" services route... the consumer still has a choice in telephony.

        Yes, I can refuse 911 service. I do refuse 911 service. Not that I "care" if I had it or not, but I se
        • Even if you don't have phone service, you can still call 911. Just plug in a phone and go.

          • I stopped my local phone service long ago, but left a (now useless) phone hooked up. I've since tested, there is no 911 on that phone.

            IS there some regulations that they must? I know cell phones must accept 911 calls, but for land lines? If so I'd like to know - I dislike the old phone service (which was more expensive than my cell phone for less service. About twice what most people pay) enough to fight this issue just to screw them. It isn't worth my time unless I'll win though.

      • . . .because, quite rightly, everyone expects every single phone everywhere should be able to call 911 at any time.

        Except. . .that they don't. Or was that sarcasm? It should be, unless "everywhere" somehow means "The USA" It's quite amusing getting woken up at 7am local time because my sister who I'm visiting hasn't checked the checkbox on Vonage's site acknowledging that she doesn't have E911. Why is this amusing, and why are they calling at 7am? My sister lives in Japan.

        I've been a customer of Vonag

      • If you're in a situation where others will be using your phone, how about putting a "not valid for 911" sticker on your phone? Better yet, put the number for the local police, fire and ambulance departments there too. It wasn't that long ago that people DIDN'T have 911 service in many rural areas. Maybe that's still the case.

        Additionally, even if you don't set up your address with Vonage, 911 STILL WORKS. The dispatchers just won't know your address. It's likely that you will be able to provide that

    • Nanny state (Score:3, Insightful)

      by 91degrees ( 207121 )
      It's really something where people have to be bullied into doing something that may save their own lives. And then people complain about it.

      If everyone was a little less ineptm and a little less ready to blame everyone else we wouldn't need to do this sort of thing.
      • kind of like seatbelt laws
      • It's really something where people have to be bullied into doing something that may save their own lives. And then people complain about it.

        I find it darkly amusing when a Slashdot post betrays the self-image of a seventeen year old. The kid who still thinks himself immortal.

    • This should be totally optional to the customer. If they don't want to set it up.. fine.. that's their problem, not OURS...

      Yes, it should be, and if the US weren't so sue-happy, it probably would be. As it stands, they are much less likely to be sued by forcing you to activate E911 than by allowing you to not have it. Because even if they had paperwork on file with your signature declining E911 service, they have no guarantee that that paperwork won't get lost...and in the event of your untimely death,
      • Because even if they had paperwork on file with your signature declining E911 service, they have no guarantee that that paperwork won't get lost.

        Even worse - they might have signed, sealed, valid paperwork on file, but the courts rule that because it wasn't in your best interests to sign it (or you didn't know what you were signing) it's not your fault anyway.

        The world has changed. Now, it's always someone else's fault.
      • Does it really matter if the US is sue happy or not? The fact is, if you CAN be sued for something then you SHOULD protect yourself from it, regardless of whether or not anyone will ever sue for it.

        The US wouldn't be so "sue happy" if the system were different- it's not the people it's the system.

        Not that I'm complaining about the system or anything. DISCLAIMER: I work at a large class action law firm but IANAL.
    • Name one good reason why you wouldn't activate E911? Not setting it up is just like not using your seatbelt. It's there for you to use, but you choose not to.
    • My VoIP provider was just the opposite. i was snet a letter that I had to sign stating what was NOT supported on 911 service on my line. really simple, if I sign and send it back I get $5.00 credit on my bill.

      broadvoice beats the crap out of vonnage. I pay less than 1/2 what you pay and they not only treat me like a great customer but allow me to have control over my equipment, something that vonnage flat out REFUSED to give me.

      I guess some companies are interested in keeping and building their custome
    • >>your image as a company not giving into the FCC and protecting your customers.. horrible.

      You actually expect them to break the law to protect your laziness? They have an obligation to their investors to remain in business too you know. If the FCC shuts them down for non-compliance with rules I guarantee it will serve no cause other than to scare the other vendors into fast compliance.

      I'm with you, it should be optional, but it isn't.

    • Interesting ... I'm a Vonage customer and have yet to receive any info about this. In fact, this Slashdot article is the first I've heard about it.

      They must think I'm a customer because I still have service and they keep charging me ...

    • Wow, you must have gotten a very different email than I did then.

      To continue to provide you with premium Vonage service, please login to your web account to review this feature and acknowledge your understanding. We apologize for sending you repeated notifications, but we require your acknowledgement as a result of the FCC ruling.

      They required the rest of us to log in, and to acknowledge the statement of differences between their 911 service and landline 911 service.

      It doesn't state anything about

  • the 911 solution seems to be a hack. I was looking at getting Vonage but the thing that concerns me is that with calling 911 you have to give the person on the other end your address. What if there is a situation where you can dial but for some reason can't say anything i.e choking, home invasion etc?

    Once they address this then I will probably look into it again.
    • Why not buy Vonage and a TTY machine? Then if you're choking you can use the TTY.

    • Re:I would get voip but (Score:2, Informative)

      by TheZax ( 641389 )

      Once they address this then I will probably look into it again.

      Then it is time to look into it again. Vonage is rolling out E911 which provides your address and callback number to the closest dispatch center, much like a regular phone.

      If E911 is not available in your area yet, calling 911 on your Vonage phone will at least get forwarded to the closest 911 Operator to your home (or whatever you filled in on Vonage site).

      So have a look, my experience with Vonage has been nothing but positive.

  • I have to say that at the price for my Speakeasy VOIP and quality/features I receive from them, I wouldn't care if they told me that 911 doesn't work at all. I hope POTS isn't having 911 be their main selling point. There were days when you wrote emergency numbers by your phone, it's not that tough.
    • Some areas no longer have emergency phone numbers for the fire and police department. The only way to talk to an emergency dispatcher is by calling 911.

  • Just do a "Registration Required" for every call (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mortimer82 ( 746766 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @05:22AM (#13122474)
    I have to admit this is annoying, but it is the sort of annoying that may be necessary to potentially save lives of those "i'll do it later" but never actually do kind of people.

    The companies just need to make it that if you haven't yet set up your E911, whenever you try making a call, before the call connects, it gives a voice prompt telling you that E911 is not yet set up, and without it you may have difficulty making emergency calls. After the voice message, your call connects normally.

    Very much like a software approach to security updates and registrations, and while annoying, if following the instructions is the only way to get rid of the annoyance, you may be suprised at how many people suddenly take the effort.

    At least people can't accuse the VOIP companies of not warning them.
  • Jesus...I can't believe I'm actually about to agree with the FCC, but here goes...

    I know this is a pain for most of you who use voice IP services, but this is actually a pretty reasonable rule. Everyone in America is taught from a very early age to dial "911" if you're in serious trouble. And the FCC has gone to great lengths to make sure that those calls always get connected. Payphones don't charge for them. Cell phones, even if they don't have service established, are supposed to put them through. A

    • So how, unless the FCC mandates that all IP addresses have a centrally-registered physical location, should they go about doing it?

      I live in a condo. If my parents were visiting and took their Vonage box and brought it with them and plugged it in, how can Vonage be sure they've reregistered the address? They can't. So 911 won't work from that phone.

      You can't use GPS or something, no guarantee of getting a signal. Plus, living in a condo, GPS would only approximately tell someone where it was, not which un
  • Traditional land lines are very reliable in America. There are more instances of power outages than phone outages. (when was the last time you got a busy signal for 911 or had to use your cell phone because your power AND phone were out of service?) It boggles my mind to think that the FCC wants people to trust computers/cable providers/routers to be as reliable. And please don't because VoIP is sold as a land-line equivalent, because I'm sure there are houses out there that only use cordless phones and

  • An idea, (Score:2, Insightful)

    by deimtee ( 762122 )
    One of the points made is that there is sometimes no way to tell the location of a VOIP phone, which is a problem if you are unable to talk.

    How about if the VOIP app. insisted that you record a 30 second emergency message (stating your location/name/whatever) when being installed and then watched what numbers you were dialling. If you ever dialled 911, and then if there was more than 20 seconds of dead airtime, began to play the message over and over.

  • Why don't I understand the big deal? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CrackedButter ( 646746 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @06:19AM (#13122651) Homepage Journal
    I'm in the UK and this talk of enabling 911 services on a device seems a little stupid, why don't the phone companies do it for you right away? Why does the customer have to do it? Looking in this thread people mention they have to give an address? Whats the deal with that, they would need an address to get to you in an emergency. Why is this a big deal that every week on slashdot their is a discussion about it? I'm just a non american sitting here scratching my head with confusion and wondering what the hell you americans are playing at! Not trolling, I really want to know.
    • The reason is twofold: idealogical and logical.

      From an idealogical perspective, the government regulationg internet packets (because that's all VoIP is) is chilling. What's next? Skype? AIM and MSN voice chat? Do those have to call 911 next? You can use Skype to connect to POTS landlines as well. Should Skype be outlawed in the US because it's not subject to the 911 requirement the other companies are using. What about when people choose Skype because it's not regulated, effectively being the FCC causing b
    • I'm also in the UK, but I've been following this a bit, so let me explain:

      Some Americans are stupid(*). Some stupid Americans will dial 911 on their cellphone, and when asked where they are will respond "right here". This doesn't help the 911 dispatchers send the emergency crews to the right place - they have to explain to the guy at the other end that no, they don't magically know where they are, and please can you give me your address. This can delay sending the emergency crews by a few vital minutes.
      • So what address does a stupid American give if they've been kidnapped and thrown in the trunk (boot) of the car? What address does a four year old girl give when she barely knows how to dial 911? What address does a barely conscious victim give after they got carjacked and shot in a strange neighborhood?

        -Eric

      • I'm also in the UK, but I've been following this a bit, so let me explain:

        Some Americans are stupid(*). Some stupid Americans will dial 911 on their cellphone, and when asked where they are will respond "right here". This doesn't help the 911 dispatchers send the emergency crews to the right place - they have to explain to the guy at the other end that no, they don't magically know where they are, and please can you give me your address.

        (* Some Americans are really smart, too. I am not a troll).

        Y

    • Unlike in the UK where on calling the emergency services you have to give them your address, in the US there is this thing called E911 where the address is given to the call center automatically (from phone company records). That obviously doesn't work with VoIP as they have no way of knowing where your handset is plugged in at any one time. Personally, having lived in the UK for 28 years and survived to tell the tail (despite having to call 999 a number of times) I don't see what the big deal is, but it do

  • What we need (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Cytlid ( 95255 ) * on Thursday July 21, 2005 @06:33AM (#13122704)
    Is a new 911 system. Duh. Think about it ... the traditional phone monopolies have a hold of the 911 system by the cahones, and they like it that way. And they cannot be too happy about voip, especially stealing their business.

    I work for a local company that is both a telephone and data company (I work for the data side). We have a small test voip network. Basically, we threw together all the equipment needed to do voip. And I ported my home number over to it. Can I dial 911? Got me ... so I made sure everyone in the family has cell phones and they know to use them to call 911.

    If I remember correctly, 911 is a service we have to subscribe to, which is why customers are footed the bill, and it's a requirement. Why not just change the 911 system? Have someone create an open standard that anyone can link into without a problem. Hell make it based on IP and redundant and better than the current 911 system (not that I know how that works).

    Lets turn this from the FCC ruling something that could be the ruling RBOCs' wet dream into making an exsisting system something better. I might just start by writing the FCC myself...
  • As being with a VoIP in .au, we have been thinking about this issue and found a very simple one: Setup a chain of authority for the data.

    At the begin of the search there is a phone number being called from.

    The phone number is owned by a certain telco, which terminates it at a certain PRI. This is just database stuff, it's known where the PRI terminates. 911 looks up the number in this database, and gets a refferral[sp] to the VoIP provider.

    The VoIP provider knows what VoIP-phone has that number, and thus
  • Where? It wasn't listed on the main www.fcc.gov website on the 29th of June... when was it published.. anyone have a linkie?
  • I just unpacked an ISDN router, and there was a prominent warning in the box that if I'm using an ISDN phone that 911 service can't be guaranteed in the face of a power failure.

    I don't see why VoIP services should be required to do more than prominently display similar warnings.
  • The FCC is simply stifely innovation in this area. That's what happens when most of your funding comes from the companies you are regulating. NO government agency should be allowed to make and threaten to enforce rules without cleary annunciating the consequences of breaking them. This tack on the FCC's part is on purpose. Their constituants do not want VoIP to take off. It will harm their business. This is a great way to keep investors out of the area, as they will not risk their dollars, not knowing

  • Give me a break (Score:3, Informative)

    by Programmer_In_Traini ( 566499 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @07:59AM (#13123196)
    You know, as a VoIP user, I really dont get what the fuss is all about.

    I've been using VoIP for about 4-5 months and thats the happiest change I've made in my life ever since they created the condom.

    I save truckloads of money each month, I get to be able use my line from anywhere in the world..and tons of other things.

    I know that if there's a power outage my phone wont work, I also know about the 911 thing.

    Just get a cellphone, we almost all have one anyway. My VoIP always rings on my cellphone and my VoIP line at the same time (a nice feature) so even if there's no power, i still get my calls .... and i can still use my cellphone's 911. ...and...if you make the calculation, my VoIP phone bill + some basic cellphone plan = much cheaper than my regular phone line with the long distance and other crap they always charge at the end of the month.

    VoIP is a new technology, we have to give some time to the providers to fix the few bumps it may have.

    Anyway...
  • In my opinion 911 simply must work. The VOIP providers have all fallen down about doing this, as have the wireless carriers. I have no sympathy for them. I think they should play at same table with landline, on this specific issue, in terms of passing through a fee for 911, and being simply required to provide this essential service. There is no excuse.

    I understand that this is not a trivial task, in that location is not easily determined. But neither was setting up 911 in the first place.

  • This is complete BS (Score:3, Interesting)

    by acoustix ( 123925 ) on Thursday July 21, 2005 @08:40AM (#13123515)
    The FCC gave cell phone providers over 10 years to figure out 911 services. Now they want VoIP companies to do the same thing in 10 months? You would think that the FCC, of all government agencies, would understand the problems that VoIP has to overcome.

    -Nick
  • After over a year of leaving my 911 service unconfigured (I use a cellphone, and rely on my ability to say my location if E911 fails), Vonage finally started asking me about my 911 configs this month. In fact, last year I used their portal's form to configure it, but the configs didn't "save". I got into an email session over a couple of days with a service rep there, who offered to take my coordinates in the email and enter them manually. I didn't respond, to see what happens. Nothing happened. Even though
    • Are you fucking serious? They've been asking you. Just do it for Christ's sake.
      • Of course I'm fucking serious. I helped run the NYC City Council's E911/VoIP hearings last year, inviting Citron and his competitors to testify on what they'd do to address this problem. And I'm testing it myself, with a failsafe. Actually doing as much as possible to get everyone's safety expectations covered. What the fuck kind of problem do you have with that?
  • The next time a VoIP customer tries to call a non-VoIP number, have the VoIP provider intercept the call with an annoying message saying "The FCC wants you to know that VoIP 911 services are not the same as land line 911 and may not work in an emergency. The FCC requires that we tell you and that you acknowledge that we have told you. To repeat this announcement, press 1, to acknowledge that you heard it and continue your call, press 2."

    This meets the "affirmative acknowledgement" requirement.
  • I guess in an emergency...

    When all else fails...

    Amateur Radio!

  • "You could tell people that their house is burning down and by clicking on this link you can stop it and only 60 percent of them would respond."

    I am amazed that Mr Sakaria thinks it proper form that anyone should click a link just because it says "CLICK NOW TO STOP YOUR HOUSE FROM BURNING DOWN!!!!1!".

    I am even more surprised (almost encouraged) to find out that only 60% of users would do it.

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