Japan to Deploy Massive Broadband Satellite 274
demachina writes "Japan has announced plans to deploy a massive broadband satellite operational in 2015. It will provide 100 Mbit/sec service to mountains, remote islands and bullet trains along with comm for disaster recovery. Its giant 66 ft. diameter dish is supposed to be able to receive even weak cell phones signals. Of course, the ping times wont be so good."
Good job (Score:2, Funny)
Good job they've announced it so early then.
Re:Good job (Score:5, Funny)
That's a joke right? (Score:2)
Even the normal web surfing is a lot slower - not because of the transfer rate, but because of the response to request rate.
Re:Good job (Score:2, Funny)
Not just the boondocks but the outer boondocks....
East of bumblef*ck and north of "the sticks" right?
Re:Good job (Score:2)
Large ping? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Large ping? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Large ping? (Score:3, Informative)
you->Sat Sat->Target (There)
Magical Internet Lag
Target->sat Sat->you (back)
each trip adding about 250 you say...
useing your math ur looking at about 1000+the Internet
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
It doesn't matter if the signal goes to the satellite and back to earth, it's not going "round trip" because the destination is not the source.
So no, it's not "round trip 250ms" it's "one way 250ms."
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
A round trip is Here->Sat->Sat->There->INTARWEB->There->Sat->Sat-
Oh, and your ping's crap... I'm pinging
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
One possible solution is to fiddle with the protocol supplying fake ACKs from machines on either side of the link and relying on your own error detection/correction protocols over the satellite link. Take a look at RFC 3135 [zvon.org] - this describes different types PEP
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
For example, if you would use such a link to provide a VPN between your home network and a network at your employer, and you would use this to logon to that network with a Windows system, you would need to wait at least 10 minutes for the logon to complete even with locally stored profile etc.
This is because Windows se
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
What!? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if it's latency impacting bandwidth you're worried about, all you need is a bigger window size [linuxreviews.org], i.e. bigger send & recieve buffers. Anyways, 250ms isn't that much, I doubt you would even need to make any adjustments.
Re:Large ping? (Score:2)
Laser beams (Score:2, Interesting)
Japanese in space? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Japanese in space? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Japanese in space? (Score:2)
Receive Traffic? (Score:2, Interesting)
The only satellite based internet access I'm aware of is where the satellite brodcasts (i.e. you download from it) and your connection uploads via your phone line (typically via a slow line since if you had an adsl capable line then you would probably be the cheaper and faster ADSL connection/cable provider).
So when they report that a cell phone can communicate with the satellite at 10Mbps, surely they are meaning the cellphone can download at that rate. And presumably it'll be doing that rate with the
In fact (Score:2, Insightful)
The satellite will be able to receive weak signals
Which I am led to believe means it will be able to send and receive data. Wouldnt be much use on the train otherwise if thye would still nead a wireless ground network to send.
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:5, Informative)
DirecWay (from DirecTV) offers satellite return service - no phone line necessary. I used it for about 6 months some time ago (when this area was total broadband hell, as opposed to only being partial broadband hell). It does work, but some major caveats:
But, if it's your only option, it's great. Seriously - in the same situation, I'd use it again
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:2)
Anyway, my point is that you can use your satellite service for voice as well, if you set it up right. It's certainly not as good as a landline, but where they live that's not an option. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than radio phone service.
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:2)
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:2)
Re:Receive Traffic? (Score:2)
The now push DirecWay, which is a fully bidirectional system. I have known people with it for at least 3 years now. It still sucks, but the upload speeds are in theory faster than dailup.
The latency makes the connection useless for anything other than web browsing.
Wildblue - available (Score:2)
Offtopic - why would they say SSL VPNs might work faster than IpSec VPNS because of latency?
http://www.wildblue.com/aboutWildblue/qaa.jsp#5_5 [wildblue.com]
Beam width? (Score:2, Interesting)
Unfortunately the article has no picture of the satellite so we cant see the antenna in question. But surely a the purpose of a dish antenna of that sort of size is to increase the gain by narrowing the beam width, isnt it? Presumably there's a small field near Osaka with an AWESOME signal!
If this is to cover the whole of Japan then I'm guessing they'll have multiple footprints overlapping each other from mult
Nope. (Score:5, Informative)
The beam width is dependant on a lot of things. You can adjust the focus of the transmitter to turn the beam into a big fuzzy spot.
Re:Nope. (Score:2)
Hence, a bigger dish will give you a more focused beam (and due to the nature of antennas, it will also give you increased reception from transmitters within this beamwidth).
Spotbeams (Score:2, Informative)
Yeah. (Score:2)
If you look at the footprint for the Astra 2 satellite cluster, that provides the UK and EU with digital satellite TV and radio, you will see that it is far from a round spot...
Re:Beam width? (Score:2)
The impression I'm getting is that the primary purpose of the dish is to receive weak signals --- there could well be a seperate, smaller antenna for transmitting.
But IANARS (or SS).
old technologies (Score:5, Interesting)
The most interesting technology about satellite communications is based on low orbit satellites networks, but cernaly not on geostationary satellites!
It must be only an attempt to capture all the radio traffic in Japan from a single dish and use credits dedicated to Research for 'national security'.
Anyway, this technology is already experimented in the Thalys train, linking Paris to Brussels http://www.thalys.com/be/en/wi-fi/overview [thalys.com]
Re:old technologies (Score:2)
Oh puhleeze. That would have been much easier to accomplish with a series of ground-based stations. And if they were planning to use a satellite, they sure as hell wouldn't be announcing it 10 years in advance.
Re:old technologies (Score:2)
Maintaining a fleet of LEO satellites is far more expensive and really makes not much sense when all you want to cover is the territory of Japan.
Re:Beam width? (Score:2)
Normally on such a satellite there will be a lot of separate feedhorns in front of this big dish, each of them creating a separate (small) coverage area. This has two advantages: you have a lot of gain and thus a lot of signal (and not much power needed for uplink), and also the separate areas create a space-divisi
What's the actual throughput though? (Score:2)
If the 100Mb is for each person, what's the limit to the number of people that can use it?
TFA is short on actual details.
Re:What's the actual throughput though? (Score:2)
Japan has unique opportunity (Score:4, Interesting)
Many satellites, all in one orbit that takes each satellite across the nation along the long axis (i.e., north-to-south) should provide continuous coverage with very low latency.
Given the importance of VoIP it would seem that latency isn't something you can so easily get rid of.
--
Why didn't you know? [tinyurl.com]
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
LEO is never geostationary. Astra satellites are geostationary, and orbit at 36000 km.
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
All things are relative. Compared to the US, Canada, China, India, Australia, and Russia it is pretty compact. The size really doesn't matter that much when talking about a constellation leo system. It would still take a lot of birds to give you coverage. Frankly for the bullet trains I would think WiFi Max would be a good solution. For the mountain areas a Satellite in geosync would work better than a leo system. The mountains you would tend to ha
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Any satellite will always orbit the entire earth. When your coverage area is small you need just as many satellites, at the very best you could cut down on solar panel size as it could use smaller panels and charge a battery while it is not over your small country.
Re:Japan has unique opportunity (Score:2)
Outdated by the time it starts working? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right... it sounds like Motorola's Iridium (Score:2)
Latency (Score:3, Insightful)
That doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of uses. It just means that when the marketing types start hyping the product they conveniently overlook its limitations. And in comparing it to fiber optic without mentioning latency issues, they are doing just that.
Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:4, Interesting)
A geostationary orbit is about 35,000km up. lets call that 50,000km as we might not be right underneath it. Light travels at 300,000km/s so the travel time for a message is ~166ms. multiply by 4 (a->sat, sat->b, b->sat, sat->a) gives ~666ms, the latency of the beast
OK, not the greatest but pinging slashdot gives me an average of 349ms from London,UK so it's not as good but then not terrible either.
I wouldn't want to carry out interactive surgery or try and play a concert with remote players (latency kills live music!) but for just getting hold of and/or disseminating info it's not too bad.
If the satellite were to be placed in a far lower orbit then latency numbers will drop. I believe this requires spin stabilisers and some sort of engine to keep the satellite from plummeting to Earth though.
I can't say I'm an expert in satellite orbits and I can't find any more details on the proposed orbit of this project. Anyone care to help me out?
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
Worst of all, it would not be stationary anymore but move (fase!) with respect to the Earth's surface, calling for a handover mechanism etc. AFAIK an engine would only be needed to compensate for the bit of drag caused by the (thin) atmosphere.
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:3, Informative)
You would still have all the normal routing delays, so this would probably jack your ping time to slashdot up around 1000ms. It's the same sort of issue DirecWay systems have in that regard. That kind of latency is instant death if you're playing counterstrike or the like, of course, but for downloading email, web pages, even doing ftp or whatever it's still really not a big deal. It's probably enough to make VOIP annoying, but not unusable.
There are some alternatives with lower ping, but they all have pr
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
Teledesic (since dead, IIRC) proposed a constellation of over 700 satellites. We all had a hearty chuckle over that in design class. They changed that before the world lost sight of them to less than 300 satellites. I would love to see how much crack they import for the use of the guys designing the hand-off protocalls.
Regardless, you simply cannot get around high ping when it
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:4, Informative)
OK, not the greatest but pinging slashdot gives me an average of 349ms from London,UK so it's not as good but then not terrible either.
There is one additional source of delay that you are failing to take into account. When encoding and decoding the bitstream into RF, there is some delay. The transmitting end has less than the receiving end. On the receiving end, the RF signal has to be digitized, run through some form of Fast Fourier Transform and decoded to get the bitstream. This will add some time to the pings.
On a different note, I'm currious as to how they are going to get 100mbit out there. On a 36Mhz ku band transponder, the maximum throughput is probably close to 200mbit using DVB-S2 (the latest and greatest satelite transmission codes). They are going to need a lot of transponders/bandwidth to provide satelite broadband to the boonies.
One thing on the ping times though. For regular downloading of webpages, What if they set up on the ISPs end a cache manager that would take your request for a web page, cache all content on that web page (and a few surrounding links) and then forward you the web page along with all associated images all at once so you weren't requesting everything a packet at a time?
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
It's probably Ka band, like WildBlue.
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
Hint: If you're 50,000km away from a geostationary satellite, you're not on Earth. Even in theory you're looking at a coverage of less than half the earth (about 42,000km away). Since you get a lot of athmospheric interference at the edges, probably even a bit less.
Kjella
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
1) Lots of data, latency not an issue
2) Less data, latency an issue
For example, with streaming video or streaming sound, it really doesn't matter if it comes in 1 second or even 2 seconds delayed, so put it over a high-bandwidth high-latency device such as a satellite. Also on this medium would be all regular uploads and downloads such as web surfing an
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
You need to look for a better provider....
Here in the Netherlands I get:
PING slashdot.org (66.35.250.150) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from slashdot.org (66.35.250.150): icmp_seq=1 ttl=45 time=167 ms
64 bytes from slashdot.org (66.35.250.150): icmp_seq=2 ttl=45 time=167 ms
64 bytes from slashdot.org (66.35.250.150): icmp_seq=3 ttl=45 time=167 ms
64 bytes from slashdot.org (66.35.250.150): icmp_seq=4 ttl=45 time=167 ms
64 bytes from slashdot.org (66.35
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
Reply from 66.35.250.150: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=46
Reply from 66.35.250.150: bytes=32 time=44ms TTL=46
Reply from 66.35.250.150: bytes=32 time=37ms TTL=46
Reply from 66.35.250.150: bytes=32 time=38ms TTL=46
Ping statistics for 66.35.250.150:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 37ms, Maximum = 49ms, Average = 42ms
Re:Satellite ping time myth or fact? (Score:2)
Coincidence? (Score:3, Interesting)
Arianespace has launched the heaviest comsat to date, also aimed at providing bradband services to the Asian market....
Not for the masses (Score:2, Insightful)
Similar trends can be seen in the broadband internet market, with normal (non-fiber) broadband speeds of 40mbps becomming common.
At this rate, the down-to-earth infrastructure in Japan wi
I wonder if a stratellite could do it? (Score:2, Interesting)
I wish this would catch on. Assuming they work out the obvious problems with super-high flying aircraft, this might be a neat lower cost alternative to things like this, also something you could take down to make changes to (like upping the capabilities of the hardware, maybe?).
Either way, great concepts on both parts.
Re:I wonder if a stratellite could do it? (Score:2)
It sounds like they've discovered a new element or molecule lighter than both Oxygen and Nitrogen.
Re:I wonder if a stratellite could do it? (Score:2)
Ping time is overrated (Score:2)
We can be such spoiled brats sometimes...
Re:Ping time is overrated (Score:2)
Some people think "but all telephony is via satellite" but this is not true at all. In the early days of international telephony, satellite links were used. But today, international calls are almost allways via cable.
When you talk via satellite you notice that a lot of time the two parties are colliding with eachother because an untrained individual cannot c
It could possibly be even faster.... (Score:2, Funny)
RUN if ping times get exceptionally better!!! (Score:3, Funny)
RUN LIKE HELL if the ping times get exceptionally better!!!
Re:RUN if ping times get exceptionally better!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
-- TeknoHog, spoiling the fun with technical remarks since 1978.
Satellite Internet Not that Uncommon (Score:3, Interesting)
The article is more than a little short on salient information. I'd take a guess that they will focus a very high gain spotbeam on the Japanese home islands and provide a few wide coverage transponders as well. That will give them the power density to use small earth terminals within Japan.
Pricing is going to be the likely downfall of such a consumer oriented system. Relative to terrestrial broadband networks, satellite Internet is very expensive. For my current service, I pay ~$700/mo for 1M down and 256K up. Thats at a 10:1 contention ratio on a Linkstar (DVB-RCS MF-TDMA) system. Other plans are cheaper, but as the contention ratio goes up, the service delivered is only really suitable for very bursty non-realtime traffic.
Overlooking the Obvious (Score:2)
Intercontinental latency? (Score:2)
In that case I'd imagine an international connection would suck royally for somebody viewing a N. American website/game as the latency would involve:
User-->Satellite-->Japan-->Trunk-t
Re:Intercontinental latency? (Score:2)
The US already has this (Score:2, Informative)
Some alternative uses hinted at. . . (Score:2)
Why not "Stratellites"? (Score:2)
Placing so-called "stratellites" in the upper atmosphere makes so much more sense. Just a handful would be required to cover all of the Japan. And the great thing is that you can replace/repair/upgrade them if you need to. The geo-sy
What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:3, Interesting)
Ummm...Have you actually been paying attention to Japanese technology at all? Take a look at the size of mobile phones. Historically, they have been smaller than phones from the US, and they get smaller every year. Or how about Japanese cars? While Americans drive around in their gigantic, fuel-guzzling SUVs, Japanese drive VERY compact cars needed to navigate roads that are sometimes only 2.5-3 meters wide.
Have you ever ev
Re:What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:2)
Re:What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember seeing two phones that I'm not sure could get much smaller.
1) A watch phone just like dick tracy/inspector gadget had. The antenna went on the thumb (along with the earpiece) and you talked into your pinky. The watch contained the dialpad.
2) (This one belongs to friend of mine in Con
Re:What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:2)
I'm not sure, but maybe he meant 2.5-3 meters for both directions.
Exactly! (Score:2)
Re:What on Earth are you talking about? (Score:2)
Interesting. Is it one of the places where you really need one? I have been in places where the people who live there need an SUV to get around. In West Virginia it is bad enough driving on dirt roads while they are dry. It gets much worse in the winter. Not sure how bad Idaho is. How much snow do you get in winter and how necessary is 4 wheel drive?
Re:The US left behind again (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The US left behind again (Score:2, Funny)
No, just about 1.3 lightseconds.
Re:The US left behind again (Score:2, Funny)
Don't confuse us Amerikuns with facts, we ain't too smert here and we like it dat wey! Praise Jeebus and pass the Chinese-manufactured, Indian-designed, Japanese-researched cel phoon so I cun call in to Russ Limbaw.
Re:The US left behind again (Score:4, Informative)
So, no, the US hasn't been left behind. The market forces have decided that there aren't enough dollars to support a venture and make lots of cash. This sucks for those in rural america, as the landline folks have also decided that you won't make them money. Our democracy and capitalism fails us in insideous ways. This is one example.
Re:The US left behind again (Score:3, Informative)
The re-tasking of the sats had less to do with broadband viability and MUCH MORE to do with Rupert Murdoch wanting to control DirecTV and make it competitive with other TV offerings like cable. At best you might say that NewsCorp/Murdoch didn't see broa
Re:The US left behind again (Score:2)
250,000?? In this week's news, I read that the major ADSL provider in our small country (which has 15 million inhabitants), has 1.6 million subscribers. And there are other ADSL providers (together something like 400,000 subscribers) and Cable (with over 1 million subscribers).
Internet via satellite cannot make even a small dent into that. And of course there are many reasons for that.
Re:erm? (Score:2)
Re:erm? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Does it use WiMAX? (Score:2)
Re:Um, there's a reason they're doing this: (Score:2)
Those Japanese sure make things complicated for themselves. No wonder! I mean, instead of just putting the cable across the ravine....
It's a cable, not a train line. No need to zig zag. You just need two very sturdy poles.
Re:Um, there's a reason they're doing this: (Score:2)
In other words it's like West Virginia and Colorado with the population density of Wyoming?