Modded Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 MPG 1359
artemis67 writes "Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car."
So like... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:So like... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:So like... (Score:5, Interesting)
Geo metro 50Mpg average, when I drive all highway I get 58mpg
why does a "hybrid" get much less gas mileage than my old technology simple internal combustion engine with a CARBERATOR? something is very wrong with these hybrids.
80 mpg for the first 20 miles is great for the stay at home mom that drive to the store or around a little bit. the majority of the american public lives more than that from work. Granted in cities where during rush hour you spend a majority of that time at under 10mph or stopped and these hybrids make great use of that time. but having to buy a $25,000.00 hybrid plud add 80 hours of my time tinkering and voiding the warrenty so I can add another $3000.00 worth of parts to it to finally get a MPG rating that a hybrid should have already had really bothers me.
How about the fricking SMART CAR already availabe in canada and get's 60Mpg on it's own?
Hybrids are crap, utter crap until they get on their worst day 50mpg. Let's force the US to allow the importing of the smartcar.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Informative)
That said, I would never buy a Prius myself. There are better cars for the price (and similar cars for much less), and there are many better ways to help the environment then by purchasing a new car.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Informative)
For comparison, my lawnmower has six horsepower.
better ways to help the environment than by purchasing a new car
Excellent point. Many environmentalists fail to factor in production into their calculations. Steel is made by burning coke in with your iron ore. Aluminium is an incredibly energy-consuming electrolysis process. Plastics, well, they're non-biodegradable and made from petroleum. Copper is a particularly polluting metal to mine. And lets not even get into things like batteries.
If *I* needed a new car, I'd probably choose a hybrid. However, to run out and get something new because it's more efficient often ignores the big picture. Complex physical devices often have polluting activity involved in production at least somewhat related to cost.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't think I'll buy a non-CVT car again, so I'm looking forward to them being standard. The kind of driving I do makes manual sort of impractical, and conventional automatic can be very annoying.
I should say though that, at least from my understanding, CVT will never be quite as efficient as a manual when it comes to highway mileage. The pulley design makes slippage sort of inherent, and although for city mileage that's allieviated by the engine being kept at the most efficient RPM, for highway mileage that doesn't help as much. Still more efficient than a regular automatic, though.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
Smartcars do well in Europe since most cars are very small (Citroens, Fiat Pandas, and the like) and there are fewer of them. Not many cars will be much bigger than yours, save for the occasional Mercedes or tractor-trailer.
The US is far different. Even in times of record high gas prices, SUVs are still selling since many people have the idea that size=safety. Just like the cold war arms race, no one wants a wimpy car that doesn't stand a chance against an encounter with an Escalade.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm tired of hearing this. While that might be part of it, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to own an SUV.
My family has 7 people in it. To travel semi-comfortably on vacation, we pretty much have to use a Suburban. A minivan, while it does have room for 7, doesn't have room for luggage. We're not anywhere near alone in this.
My family also enjoys camping and using a shared family boat. Both of these require a vehicle that can tow a lot of weight. There's not many options for a even a family of 5 to travel and tow something this size besides a large SUV. We're not anywhere near alone in this.
It's not something we really like. After all, ~15 MPG with a 45 gallon gas tank and $2.50 per gallon add up to some pretty big numbers for a trip. Because of this we also have a smaller vehicle for everyday use. This isn't to say that SUVs are always used for a good reason. I'm sure there's plenty of people who just like the big cars, same as they like big houses. But SUVs also have many valid purposes.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, the problem isn't your family going on trips in an SUV. Most (relatively rational) people would agree that in your case, for that situation, it makes sense. What about when you aren't on trips, who uses it? Does someone use it to drive to the market every day, run errands, etc? That's where it starts to bother people.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because you are polluting the air that I breathe, because it's people with your attitude who are impacting the climate I have to live in, and so forth. Your right to do as you please ends, for one thing, where you start hurting others.
Reminds me of the old Texas saying (I realize Bush doesn't adhere to this so piss off): Leave me the hell alone and I'll leave you the hell alone.
Good. Great. I'm all for it. Now could you please move to another planet (or show me one I can relocate to, preferably one that has all the amenities of our little blue ball of dirt, like breathabe atmosphere, ecosystem, close to 1g of gravity, magnetic field to help keep the solar wind out, preferable somewhere close by that the move doesn't take half a millenium).
What, you can't ? Geee.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Until you get completely off the electricty grid, never go anywhere in a car, and stop using consumer goods of any kind, take your smart assed high and might eco bullshit and stuff it. You, my arrogant and self righteous friend, are just as guilty as the rest of us.
YOU are polluting as well. Not as much maybe, but then again maybe you do in ways that are not as visible as an SUV.
If you have a car you are polluting as well. If you use electricity (obvious that your computer does at least) you are polluting the air and screwing the climate. If you use mass transit you are consuming resources that lead to pollution. If you buy food from a grocery store the packaging and transportation of that food causes pollution too. If you have anything made out of plastic, paper, or metal that you did not craft by your own hand in the back yard, then you are contributing to pollution and climate change.
Screaming down someone who wants to drive a SUV while you and the rest of the world continue to pollute is just plain moronic. You are creating a scapegoat to attack that makes you feel better about yourself, but that has little impact on anything else, least of all pollution.
Get used to it folks. If you like this consumer based society we have built with the cars and computers and electric lights and rapid transit and grocery stores and pharmacies all the rest of the shit we are all used to then you are going to be a polluting, environment destroying climate changer, just like the SUV driver.
Since I don't see people falling off of the electric grid in droves and shunning this modern lifestyle you had better buy some shorts and a few Hawiian shirts. It's gonna get alot hotter around here.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Interesting)
What I would love to see, however, is for them to realize that their arrangement is rude and try to come up with something less intrusive. I would also love to see people with tall vehicles of all types (minivans, SUVs, mail trucks, delivery vans, etc.) to avoid parking in parallel spaces very near intersections, because tall vehicles in these spaces obstruct the view of cross traffic. No reason to call the cops, I would just appreciate some courtesy. I would appreciate it if engineers designing SUVs that will drive a vast majority of their miles on congested roads designed the headlights with some concern for the other drivers on those roads. Some SUVs have unreasonably high headlights that shine directly into the rear- and side-view mirrors of regular cars and blind the drivers. Particularly these new high-intensity headlights. Perhaps if the high headlights provide the best visibility on dark rural roads, certain big vehicles need a city-driving headlight setting where the lights are aimed lower as well as normal and high-beams.
Personally SUVs don't bother me by themselves... however, their drivers should take it upon themselves to drive with caution and courtesy, knowing that large vehicles simply by virtue of their size can cause lots of problems in congested traffic. These aren't problems that can be solved by the government, but they are problems that require that drivers care if they bother other people.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
2005 Dodge Caravan SWB SXT
3.3L V6 180HP 19/26 mpg
2005 Dodge Durango SLT 4X2
3.7L V6 210HP 16/21 mpg
For example.
I dunno, for the closest comparable engines, that looks mighty similar.
For an SUV with similar fuel economy to a minivan, you're not going to get 7 seats. You're also probably not going to get as much usable cargo room (you might not even in the 7 passenger SUV), you're probably going to pay more, and you probably won't get crashworthiness as good.
Minivans get a free pass because they do everything that most SUV buyers are buying their SUVs for, or CLAIMING they're buying them for, they do some of them BETTER, they often do it CHEAPER, and with better fuel economy.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
The most survivable accident is the one you don't get into.
It's a whole lot easier to avoid an accident in a small car.
Also, the size of your car doesn't make much difference if you say, hit a tree or a light post. That's a situation where you'd be better off in a Mini than a truck. (You also would be less likely to roll.)
http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINIC ooperVsFordF150 [bridger.us]
Can't say mu
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
And of course, size=safety is a total fallacy. Size=weight=bigger bang when you hit something. And in a car like the Crown Victoria, which seems to have been completely unaffected by the last 30 years or so of progress in car design, I wouldn't be too confident that it'll crumple in a passenger-friendly way if I stuck it in a wall. Most fairly small cars are incredibly safe these days - check out the Euro-NCAP [euroncap.com] tests to see how our silly little European econoboxes cope with being flung at walls and stuff, and all whilst getting hybrid-style fuel ecnonomy out of their diesel engines.
Not having a go at you personally, you understand, I just don't see the point of these cramped, inefficient, slow, thirsty behemoths in this day and age.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd appreciate it if you would justify to me why you're wearing out the roads faster, the ones I pay for with my tax dollars. Until there are higher registration fees for heavier vehicles, SUV drivers are getting subsidized by the rest of us.
And that doesn't even touch the global warming issue.
You do realize... (Score:4, Funny)
As far as the over-active sense of entitlement, I think that's the parents who can't stomach the idea of driving a station wagon. Hate to tell ya, folks, but most SUVs these days have 8" ground clearance and soft-ass suspensions and probably can't deal well with potholes. You're not fooling anyone, it's as pathetic as a combover. Embrace the inner soccer mom - after you spit out the 7th puppy, that's what you are.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Interesting)
And the gas mileage is sweeeeet. I drive it on my commute every day and I only need to fill up every 2.5 weeks, yes, weeks. And even though gas costs about $4.00 a gallon here (you Americans think you have it bad, hahahaha...) I still spend less on gas per month on that car than I do when I visit the USA with other cars. I was in New York City and Boston in the past few weeks and was disgusted by how many Hummer H2's were driving around. A Smart is the PERFECT city vehicle, and it's just ignorance to dismiss it because of it's sensible size.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Interesting)
I also don't know why but some of the most dangerous driving I have seen was done in the largest suvs. Things like the hummer and those suburban things. I watched someone yesterday on the freeway change lanes right into one a smaller car was already occupying. The person swerved very quickly and avoided the accident but there is no reason it should have happened. The car would not have been in their blind spot it just seemed like they did not see it. My guess is that people in those larger vehicles are only looking at vehicles that they see as a threat, ie the same size or larger and so they are a far more serious threat to other vehicles on the road.
I know there are some legitimate reasons to have them. The mountain rescue service around here has hummers that they use for rescues but they should not be used for regular driving around.
Re:So like... (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand as long as those people pay for their indulgence I have no inclination to interfere. But when they ins
Re:So like... (Score:4, Interesting)
I drive the SUV about 10,000 miles/year. $4/gallon gas will cost me about $2,000. No problem for me. Those who cannot afford gas will need to find new cars. The market will take care of it.
The real problem is that everything is moved via truck and made out of plastic. SUV or not, rising petroleum prices are going to cascade into everything else anyway.
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
The UK has a population density of 250 people per square kilometre compared to 32 in the US, and most of our city centres are many hundereds of years old, which basically means that our streets are quite a bit thinner than yours and there's more cars on 'em. Many people in cities (including
myself) don't have off-street parking so it's a case of trying to find a space on the street fairly close to your house.
That coupled with a road tax related to engine size and petrol (sorry, gas) costing close to $6/gallon means that people just don't buy the behemoths that you see on US roads. The closest it tends to get are large 4x4s like [volvocars.co.uk] these [bmw.co.uk] ones [landrover.com] that would be dwarfed by your American SUVs.
I've got a Toyota Corolla Verso [toyota.co.uk], which has up to seven seats to fit my family of six, and yet is only 14 feet long and has a 1.8 litre engine. If need to haul stuff, I can put all the seats down which creates quite a large space in the back. If I need to haul something really big, I'll just hire a van. Sure, it'd be nice not to have to do that, but have something big for everyday driving? In London? Forget about it!
Re:So like... (Score:3, Interesting)
Already available [zapworld.com] in the US.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Funny)
Not to nitpick, but the only way that a Geo's going to get up to 60 mph is if it's going downhill and you've got a sail the size of a Winnebago attached to the roof. And that's on a good day.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So like... (Score:4, Insightful)
A solar panel car can give you quite a lot of mpg because it uses no liquid fuel, but try flooring it and see if you win a dragrace with it. You also don't get much of a legroom in a solar car.
Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Doing the right thing isn't always about saving money....
I usually plow snow in the winter as a second job (Find me another second job where you make $50 and hour to drive around in a truck smoking cigarettes and listening to music) but I almost never drive my plow truck in the summer. Is at a big, comfy F350 dually crew cab? Yes. Can I afford to gas it and drive it to work everyday? Yes. Do I? No. I sometimes ride my bike, sometimes carpool and sometimes drive my car. But my big, comfy (I am 6'4" so a F350 is nice for me) truck at home all winter. Why? Because I feel a responsibility for the Earth
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hybrid cars aren't any of these things. They're a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars (subsidies!), and worst of all - they aren't that much more efficient than an economy sedan. Big whoop."
Using the word 'whacko' immediately discredits your post. Your feelings/opinions are clearly defined. Using the term 'big whoop' seriously questions your age and/or maturity.
My wife's Honda Insight has a lifetime fuel economy of 61 MPG for over 120,000 miles. What economy sedan gets that fuel economy? None. My wife also reduced her fuel costs per month from $240 to $80. But, the main reason she bought it is because she cares about the environment. The Honda Insight is also an SULEV. The fuel cost savings were a great benefit. If it was safe to do so, both her and I would ride our bikes to work, but we cannot. If it was all about the money, she would have considered buying a VW TDI with similar fuel economy. There are absolute and definable benefits to owning and driving a Hybrid.
That's great. But what you have to understand is that your feelings are just that - your feelings. No one else is obligated to feel the same way you do about "the Earth", and most people are going to make the rational economic choice rather than the irrational one.
If you want people to join you in saving the planet, you're going to have to show them how it personally benefits them, most likely by putting cash back in their wallets. Telling them it'll "help the ecology" or some such ephemeral rot isn't going to impress them.
That is also false. Hybrids were beginning to become popular before the recent gas cost increases. And they will continue to remain popular even after Iraqi/Alaskan/etc. oil starts flowing into the US in the near future. In this case, your feelings/opinions are not based on fact. And what you believe is 'rational' and 'irrational' is completely subjective. Your views have already been clearly defined. It does not mean anyone else shares your feelings/opinions nor does it make them any more vaild.
To share a point, EVERYWHERE my wife and I drive in her Honda Insight, we get a ton of questions a praise from complete strangers everywhere we stop. Roughly 99% of them were in the process of saving to buy one, talking to a Toyota dealership for a Prius (which currently has a 6 month waiting list from the factory), or are planning on owning one in the next 1-2 years.
Also, not everyone in the world is selfish. There are people who believe in doing what is right, not just what benefits only them.
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Even compared to other new non hybrids..... (Score:5, Insightful)
The free market won't do it, but those are real costs that a "rational" person would pay (unless it is voluntary, thus allowing freeloaders).
The free market would work perfectly fine for garbage disposal costs. The problem is we don't have a free market, we have a government run system which charges people based on things fairly unrelated to their costs.
But you're right, most people are too short-sighted to do it unless you give them an economic incentive.
Well, most people are too short-signed to do it even if you do give them an economic incentive. Most people aren't going to recycle just because they save $1/month in garbage hauling fees. So their time must not be worth the savings.
Anyway, going back to the hybrid vs. all-gas car question, I don't think there's a clear winner with regard to which is better for the environment and society. Sure, you don't directly pollute quite as much, and you don't create quite as much CO2. But people had to spend quite a bit more time and energy to create the product, and the environmental impact of the disposal is a bit more. Even if we assume that environmental pollution is everything - and it isn't (we could have a much cleaner environment if got rid of all cars, went back to farming, etc.) - I don't think there's even a clear-cut winner for that. Battery production and disposal has a big impact on the environment, as well as all the other production and disposal of the extra features of the car. In the end which is more important environmentally probably comes down to how much you drive the car. But if you're a big environmentalist you probably don't drive that much anyway.
Besides all that, environmental impact is not the only factor in impact on society. When you add in the intangibles like more free time the auto workers had to spend with their family instead of building you a hybrid, I think the true cost is fairly well represented by the sticker cost. This is especially true because gasoline is already taxed. That's another factor there, too. By using more gas you're contributing more to society monetarily.
If you really want to spend $6000 bettering the environment, I've gotta believe there are a lot better ways to do it than buying a hybrid car. Buy and plant 100 trees. Or donate the money to an environmental group. The possibilities are endless.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And to think a Motorcycle will do even better. (Score:5, Funny)
A motorcycle on the other hand is quite different. When you lay a motorcycle on it's side, there's a hundred pounds of human flesh and blood acting as a wear plate, before you scratch the paint on the motorcycle. The human rider is directly exposed to the energy of the impact, a very efficient transfer of energy.
As an extra side bonus, when humans act as wear plates to protect the motorcycle, they are also helping with the culling process, improving the gene pool. I always get a big grin on my face when I see a big dumb biker riding down the road, jeans and a t-shirt, no helmet. Nature will always prevail, the culling process is natural in that scenario. The only real problem these days is the sneaking up of license ages. If they keep letting it sneak up higher, pretty soon, the culling process wont be able to take effect until AFTER those folks have propogated the genes that contain utter stupidity. But I have faith in nature, it'll find another vector around this problem....
Re:So like... (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortunately that's just bullshit. Smartcars have their issues (with a top speed on 135kph, and poor acceleration they aren't exactly ideal for highway driving) but safety is not amongst them. They are surprisingly well designed. Here's an article from Wired [wired.com] that discusses the safety issues of smartcars. In crash tests they actually rate better than Fo
MOD DOWN! (Score:4, Informative)
See, here's the funny thing: surprisingly enough, when they make these small cars they take that into account and make them safe despite it. I drive a Hyundai Accent, and the thing has so many safety features it's not even funny: front airbags, side airbags, crumple zones, side-impact door beams, etc.
I saw a thing a while back comparing a Mini to a F-150 by crashing them head-on into each other. Guess which driver would be less injured? The MINI driver! You know why? Because the passenger compartment of the Mini is designed to maintain its structural integrity in a crash. The front of the thing was completely flat, but the passenger compartment was completely intact. The driver of the truck, on the other hand, would have massive damage to his legs because the footwell crushed in completely. Incidentally, the Mini looked worse, but both vehicles were totaled (the truck was folded in half at the joint between the cab and the bed).
We care about the children too (Score:3, Informative)
Cars sold in Europe are rated for safety using the Euro NCAP system [euroncap.com]. If you check out the tables you'll see that in terms of crash protection the Smart MCC scores the same as a 2002 Jeep Cherokee. In terms of wha
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:MOD UP! (Score:4, Informative)
Jedidiah.
Re:So like... (Score:5, Insightful)
Adios, dude! (Score:4, Funny)
80MPG not 250MPG (Score:3, Informative)
HJ
Re:80MPG not 250MPG (Score:3, Informative)
"Ron Gremban" did not build a car that does 250MPG; he got 80MPG on $3,000 investment in fuel cells. No where in the article title nor summary does it say he only got 80, the only number stated was 250MPG. The article barely dabbles on the 200+ MPG cars other than mentioning them in fact. Great submission and great RTFA defense to an article you barely read yourself.
HJ
Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:5, Informative)
By this reasoning, I could build a car that has a little 1 horse power engine and a big bank of batteries which are charged by plugging it in at night. I could claim 1000 mpg, but that doesn't actually mean that my car is more efficient than any other car.
I agree that this may be useful, sort of more of a middle-ground between hybrids and electric cars, but really they should stop making mpg claims.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow, is it really that bad elsewhere in the country? On my last electric bill here in Maryland, I was paying $0.0585/kWh for electricity, and $0.0263/kWh for delivery... That's less than $0.08/kWh
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Interesting)
In CA, yes, that's a conservative number...
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Interesting)
The power into and out of a battery cycle has much lower efficiency than that.
Then there is some loss in control circuity between the battery and motor.
And, since the motors aren't directly coupled to the wheels, there is drivetrain loss.
They would be doing good to get 60% wall plug to tire patch on the ground system efficency.
The whole 250 mpg claim is BS too. He could have just as well made the c
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Informative)
I wish that was true. Charging is about 90% efficient, the other 10% is why the battery gets warm. Discharging is slightly better, but there is still internal resistance, and therefore energy losses. Big three phase industrial motors can be 95% efficient, but smaller ones are notably less so.
So if you take all three steps as 90% efficient, which seems reasonable, then the total for the chain is about 73% efficiency.
Which is
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Interesting)
In a state like CA or NY, where wholesalers have been consolidated to 4-5 rather than 15-20, prices move twice a day. Gas is $2.70 in NY, $2.38 40 miles away in NJ. About $0.18 of that difference is tax, the rest is the gasoline market.
Notice that the old Standard Oil companies are getting together again and even foreign companies are merging... ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, BP-Amoco-A
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't clean; generating electricity from sunlight means using either crystaline silicon or gallium arsenide. Both involve massive amounts of toxic chemicals in both manufacture and disposal. Just because you get a warm fuzzy feeling because they aren't polluting while you own them doesn't make them 'clean'.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The nice thing about a hybrid is that its range isn't limited by the amount of energy its batteries can store. So you can use the batteries for your daily commute and short trips, while still using gas for your occasional long drives. That's probably a better solution than having to buy both an electric for daily use and a traditional car for long trips.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Rent a more suitable vehicle.
Seriously. If it gets to the point that an all electric vehicle will save you a couple thousand* a year, and will cover 98% of your driving needs, it's probably worth it. 98% translates out to you needing a different vehicle 7 days of the year.
Rental car companies don't like making their rates public, but Alamo currently offers a compact car for $164 for a week, Minivan $239, SUV $249. Sure, there's some hassle with getting a rental, but many deliver, and if it became common, I'm sure they'd offer 'swap services' where they keep your car in their lot(and even charge it!) for the duration of your rental of one of their gasoline vehicles for your trip.
If you know that you're going to need two vehicles, I'd seriously consider how often you'll need the 'larger vehicle' before you pay that multi-thousand dollar increase. Don't forget that you'll be paying more in insurance and fuel.
*numbers in current dollars. Inflation may skew results in the future.
Re:Of course, that's cheating ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonsense...neighbors hummer gets more than 80mpg.. (Score:5, Funny)
It's a combination diesel-continental drift vehicle, and they fire it up maybe once in 10000 years.
Of course, if they power it up and use the vehicle to drive down the street, it's back down to 6 mpg.
Re:Nothing to see here, move along... (Score:3, Insightful)
They'll want to buy them when gas hits $5 a gallon.
*NOT* 250mpg (Score:5, Informative)
This car does not get 80 mpg. It uses 1 gallon of gas for every 80 miles it travels
Although large power plants may be able to make electricity more efficiently, he has to deal with transmission losses, and then storage losses from the inefficiency of battery storage. And he has the extra weight of 18 more batteries.
The only advantage wall-plugs do on electric vehicles is move where they're poluting -- it moves to the power plant, instead of the point of use.
Billing any of these cars as '250mpg' unless gallons of gasoline is the only input to the system is a disservice to everyone.
Re:The "only advantage" argument: (Score:3, Informative)
Of course you don't get your power from a different source - but your provider, assuming they're a public utility, is usually legally required to produce a percentage of their power proportional to the percentage of their output used by 'green power' buyers from renewable sources.
The extra amount you're paying goes into green power funds to pay for windmills, solar panels, etc. Obviously this is questionable if you get your power from a private company, but I get mine from Seat
I like these folks' idea: (Score:4, Insightful)
Put the motor in the hub. No drive train! AWD!
All I need is some big bucks to get a welding torch and put 4 in some old jalopy. (And some batteries..)
Anyone know what these things go for? They can use a lot of juice and put out a lot of power.
Cheers!
-b
Re:I like these folks' idea: (Score:4, Informative)
How heavy are these in-wheel motors? I couldn't find it on that website in my quick look.
Re:I like these folks' idea: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I like these folks' idea: (Score:3, Funny)
(Would a boat help?)
Cheers,
-b
One person suffering trade offs is not conclusive. (Score:5, Informative)
And as the average American wants a big SUV and certainly isn't going to accept downgrading to something the size of a Prius and losing all of their trunk space to 18 brick sized batteries, it looks like the politicians and auto makers are correct.
In 1904 or whenever it was, two guys managed to invent a plane that, yes, technically could fly. A full hundred years later, why don't we all have our own planes or flying cars? Because, for the average person, they're totally impractical - they simply cost too much and have too many trade-offs for the benefits gained.
A Prius stacked full of batteries with no trunk space is exactly the same: Sure, you can do it. But that doesn't mean everyone in America is going to rush out and get one.
The theory is that it'll take years or decades to reach the point where it is practical for the masses. And that theory remains true.
Re:One person suffering trade offs is not conclusi (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no consumer pressure to make fuel-efficient cars because the very inefficiency and extravagance of the modern SUV is what is really being purchased by design.
easy! (Score:3, Funny)
Shift into neutral, and find a 250 mile stretch of downhill....
Something's always bugged me about hybrids ... (Score:3, Insightful)
What about the batteries? Aren't most batteries toxic as hell? Isn't the manufacture and disposal of batteries a colossal headache? Am I really doing anything productive at all, trading a few gallons of Saudi crude for a lithium/ion toxic waste site? Somebody, please, set me straight. What do they do with the batteries?
Oh, and what if you live in a place with real winters? Last I heard, batteries die a quick and silent death in subzero conditions.
Not quite the trick (Score:3, Informative)
Furthermore, there's a lot more to it than simply sticking a bunch of batteries in the trunk. Some consumers use their trunks. Why do you think they put them in cars? Because they just happen to have a lot of extra room when they're done building the car?
Also, by adding all that weight, you're changing the dynamics of the car. For a dealer to sell a car modified like that, it now needs to go through safety tests.
There are a lot of people that think, "Oh geez, all the car manufacturers need to do is XYZ and we won't need gas anymore." I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot more complex a problem than most people make it out to be. You have to build a car that's safe and a car consumers want to buy. Those aren't always easy things to accomplish when the source of power isn't in question. When you're trying a new source of power, it's a big additional question.
Sure, everyone could rely on hydrogen, except we don't have enough hydrogen fuel pumps yet. Not to mention, hydrogen is pretty expensive to produce right now and certainly there isn't infrastructure to produce it in the quantities necessary for a mass market.
It's not a simple problem and there isn't a simple solution.
I'm just thankful that my Saturn gets (Score:5, Interesting)
An RV posted for sale on the bulletin board at work gets 2.5 miles per gallon. Also posted are lots of SUV's that get 10-12mpg in town and 18-20mpg on the interstate. That's why folks are dumping those gas hogs.
BUT, as the price of gasoline crosses $3.50 to 4.00/gal even my car will be too expensive to drive. I believe $3/gal will arrive before Christmas, and $4/gal by the next Christmas, if not sooner. Luckily, work is only 3.7 miles away and I have a nice bike.
Re:I'm just thankful that my Saturn gets (Score:3, Insightful)
Please don't compare RVs with cars. It would be absolutely impossible to make an RV get 30MPG like a one ton Saturn. RVs have to haul a huge ammout of weight, fight very strong headwinds, and still be able to get up to highway speeds.
That's all subjective. A great many people don't have the option of NOT driving, so even if the pr
Where do I plug it in? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ruins the batteries (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, in my garage I have a car that runs on straight used frying oil which I get free from local resturants. Much cheaper and if I run out of veg oil I can run on diesel
MPG doesn't matter if you don't drive. (Score:3, Insightful)
But perhaps the best solution is getting your local government to support mixed use zoning. New Urbanism [newurbanism.org] is a great start, but not if these end up as islands in a sea of suburbia -- you'd just end up driving to get to them, sort of like a Universal Studio's City Walk. Relaxation of zoning and land-use laws in suburban areas would help even more. The ability to open a cafe on the corner of your subdivision -- or even in your own house -- would be a great way to create more local services that obviate the need for driving.
The best car is NONE. (Score:3, Insightful)
1. I didn't get my license until I was 23, and then it was because my evil Evil EVIL ex-wife demanded that I learn how to drive. So I bludgered about in her POS Mercury Bobcat and got my license. The Bobcat (mercifully) self-destructed a few years later. So: first: DON'T DRIVE unless you have some psycho harpy bitch chewing you a new final voluntary sphincter (cuz it feels good, at first... nemmind...)
2. I didn't own a car of my own until I was 27. A 1972 Chevy Nova. Got horrible mileage, but no one fucked with me over a parking space. It was olive green and nicknamed the Urban Assault Vehicle. After I put it into a guard rail doing about 95 dodging a fucking DEER in Pennsylvania (long story) I sold the parts for what I paid for the car - $425.
3. I moved across the country after that and didn't own another car of my own for almost 5 years. When I did get one, it was an old Honda Civic wagon I bought for $800. I sold it a few years later to my sister for $700.
4. In 1999 I bought my present vehicle, a 1991 Toyota Corolla. It gets about 27 mpg on the highway and about 19 in the city. It's old and dying and there is NO way it's going to pass Smog next month, so the State will take it off my hands for $1000.
After that, I won't own a car, and I hope to never have to own another. If I DO buy another car, it will likely be an old used Geo Metro or an old Rabbit Diesel so I can run it on vegetable oil.
If you REALLY want to do the Earth a BIG FAT FAVOUR DON'T buy a car. And if you do, buy a gas sipping used car. Why?
1. The energy that went into making the car (which is about equal to the amount of energy the damn thing will consume) has already been spent.
2. Buying a new car means that at your behest and convenience a lot of energy was spent making this energy sucking device.
3. NOT using a car at all, or renting them when you need them, means that you have organised your life in such a way that they are no longer of use to you. And THAT is a good thing - I am convinced that Suburbia will prove to be the single most wasteful expense of resources the human species has ever endured.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it. So LIVE THE FUTURE NOW. Get rid of your car. Move to a small (or even not so small) city that has decent public transport and RIDE A FUCKING BICYCLE. It rains where you live? Well, DRESS FOR IT or TAKE A TRAIN. In the town where you live, agitate for light rail, trolleys and suchlike.
Make it happen. Hybrids are NOT a solution - they are just a less (and not very less) heinous face on a cancerous blight. The solution is energy curtailment and population reduction. I say, "Live it, or live with it.
It's a bit like having bees live inside your head, but it's a really good BUZZ.
RS
Plagiarism at it's best (Score:3, Interesting)
From the article:
Notice any similarity between the two? This is plagiarism [wikipedia.org]. If you're a regular reader of
Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:4, Insightful)
I do believe that the generators down at the power plant are in general more efficient than the engine in your car (though it's tricky to make an apples to apples comparison, as few power plants run on gasoline (though some probably do run on diesel)) but I suspect it's not a LOT more efficient.
Also, you were talking about `pollution per unit of energy' not efficiency, though in practice I suspect the two are just different ways of looking at the same thing -- after all, power plants will burn a given fuel in the same way that a car engine will, so the waste products will be the same. The power plant may be somewhat better maintained, however, and can have more things similar to a catalytic converters on a car.
And even if the power plant pollutes just as much as a car engine for a given amount of energy, there's another advantage -- the polution is generally produced away from the city, which helps keep the polution around the people who actually use the cars down.
That's certainly true. Alas, not much of the US's power comes from things like this.Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:4, Informative)
did you even bother to google before making such a stupid statement
"Today, nuclear power plants--the second largest source of electricity in the United States--supply about 20 percent of the nation's electricity each year."
http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=2&catid=106
http://lsa.colorado.edu/essence/texts/hydropowe
Some country have 75%+ nuclear (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:4, Informative)
They are, in fact, a LOT more efficient. An ICE in the modern car converts gasoline into kinetic energy with about 25% efficiency. The modern power plants exceed 60% efficiency in converting fuel (typically oil) into electricity.
The reason the ICE efficiency is so low is that there is considerable wasted energy in the form of heat. A power plant burns fuel to boil water to drive a turbine, so heat is in fact desirable.
Re:There's still pollution, though (Score:3, Informative)
You can list many types of loss, but they are all very small. For example, losses due to transmission and distribution are about 5%. Info http://www.energy.qld.gov.au/infosite/eff_trans_di st.html [qld.gov.au]
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider this:
Energy content [faqs.org] of gasoline: ~45 MJ/kg
Density [simetric.co.uk] of gasoline: 737 kg/m3
1 cubic meter = 264.172051 gallons, equals 2.79 MJ/gallon.
Now 1 kWh is exactly 3.6 MJ. Electricity costs (let's exaggerate) 30 cents per kWh.
What do you pay for gas?
Now add to that the facts that:
1) It is easier to clean up a handfull of power-plants than a millions cars distributed over the whole country.
2) Electricity doesn't have to come from fossil fuel sources
3) Even if it does, power plants still produce energy more efficiently than an automobile engine.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything except natural gas (which is running out and expensive) is stuck below about 35% efficient. Coal power plants a bit more efficient than an engine, but once you factor in transmission losses and storage losses it doesn't really look that good. That, and coal is a very dirty source of power (eg it releases lots of particulates some of them radioactive). The only viable large scale alternative is nuclear, and it's not exactly cheap.
Also, the transmission infrastructure can't take a significant number of people doing this.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Informative)
I'm suprised people aren't excited about this as I am. Solar panels never took off because the energy they produced didn't cover costs. This is more efficient and cheaper. They'll make money off their solar farms, then reinvest the money to create more solar farms, which allows them to reinvest even more money on even more solar farms. Its a cyclical process where somepeople are going
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Interesting)
If they had hybrids that can store more electrical energy, and they
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Informative)
Ask for a refund on your high school education, as they failed to deliver.
737 kg/m3 divided by 264.17 is the number of kilograms per gallon of gasoline. Multiplying the 2.79kg that a gallon of gasoline weighs by the net energy content of 44 MJ/kg gives you 122 MJ per gallon of gasoline, or the equivalent of 34 kWh of electricity.
I pay about USD 20 cents per kWh of electricity with tax, so the electrical equivalent for a gallon of gasoline would be about USD 6.80. Or, I can buy gasoline at about USD 2.15.
The more interesting question is: For each of those joules combusted in the engine, how many of them make it to the rubber/road interface (according to one FAQ about 0.2) and for each of the joules my ersatz-electric car pulls out of the wall socket, how many of THEM make it into the rubber/road interface (according to another FAQ about 0.6). Of course regen braking lets me use some of those joules over and over again, how much of which is highly dependent on driving conditions.
So, it turns out that the utility-electric-sourced car is about $11.30 per mega-newton-meter/second at the road surface, while the gasoline car is at about $10.75 - although it would not take very much regeneration at ALL to push that to the other side of the equation.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:5, Informative)
Third time in this article I've seen someone make this mistake. It's an epidemic.
The gasoline powered car is only 25% efficient so although you pay $2.15/gallon you only use a quarter of the energy. Electric motors are very efficient so you don't need 1:1 energy equivalent with gasoline. The "electrical equivalent for a gallon of gasoline" is actually closer to $1.50, using your figures.
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
So, using your numbers (except for your high electricity price) the electric car gets four times the miles/dollar as the gas car. Of course, the electric RAV4 only gets 100 of those miles per charge. Based on a month's driving and his electricity bill, we calculated that the
Re:That's all good, but.. (Score:3, Funny)
Flame? That wasn't a flame.
Afraid so. Compilation aborts at the first error.
Re:You missed the point (Score:3, Insightful)
As it continues to become more expensive to commute, people like you will either go broke commuting, or find a way to make a living locally.
I'd rather see farmland in places like Ohio & Upstate NY be used as farmland, instead of being yet another place for asshats sick of citylife to throw up yet another cookie-cutter 4 bed/2.5 ba colonial on 1.2 acres.
Re:You missed the point (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd rather see farmland in places like Ohio & Upstate NY be used as farmland, instead of being yet another place for asshats sick of citylife to throw up yet another cookie-cutter 4 bed/2.5 ba colonial on 1.2 acres.
We don't like the city asshats either, but on the other hand I am financially secure for the rest of my life because we sold my grandfathers farm for development.
And
Re:In case you aren't aware (Score:5, Funny)
Translation: I am insecure and need to compensate with my penis car.
Re:In case you aren't aware (Score:4, Funny)
Translation: I'm envious of your ownership of the penis car.
Re:In case you aren't aware (Score:3, Funny)
Translation: I own one of those penis cars.
Re:In case you aren't aware (Score:3, Funny)
As a straight male, I find the idea of climbing into an '18-second pussy-mobile' rather more enticing than any kind of 'penis car'....
Re:MPG (Score:5, Informative)
Last Monday I put on 280 miles at 70 mph, and got 49.5 mpg. Sure, I got passed by a few Suburbans, but I passed a bunch, too. Our Prius is quite sensitive to who is driving it; I get significantly better milage than my wife. Also, in winter the milage drops substantially (colder battery? alcohol in the gas?).
It's true that the cost of the hybrid is such that it is hard to make a strong argument for buying a hybrid on strict economic grounds. However the estupidass US automakers have been so distracted with making ever larger SUVs that I simply couldn't bear to give them a dime when we needed a new car several years ago.
Look: my Prius is not a sports car, obviously. I'm not going to haul a horse trailer over Snoqualmie Pass with it. But it is really ignorant to describe these hybrids as lemons. They are extremely good at what they are designed to be good at, and that turns out to be just about 95 percent of all my family's driving needs. My Prius is comfortable, thrifty, fun to drive, and interesting to drive.
The single largest problem with the Prius is that it is so quiet that pedestrians and bicyclists don't hear it.
Re:MPG (Score:5, Interesting)
So, why not just make a diesel hybrid? Best of both worlds, and if you only need to tank up every 800 miles don't tell me you can't find find a gas station that sells it...
Re:MPG (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually i'll agree with you on the new turbo diesels. Some of the 80s passanger autos with diesels were not all that much better than their gas counterparts, but i'm starting to see a remarkable improvement. On trucks or an SUV... no contest, always been an improvement in terms of efficency.
The big issue in America is that diesel = bad. It's been a long time since I looked up the issue but the Volkswagon turbo diesel according to the VW website couldn
Re:MPG (Score:3, Interesting)
Gas-electric hybrids work well because electric motors are well-suited to low-RPM, high-torque situations and gas engines are most efficient when driven at some particular, relatively high, RPM. The electric motor is used at low speed and in stop and go situations, and the gas engine is used in the regim
Re:MPG (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.hybridcars.com/ram.html [hybridcars.com]