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The Internet Government Politics

Behind the Fight to Control the Internet 593

Carl Bialik from the WSJ writes "The battle over control of the Internet and ICann (previously slashdotted here and here) gets placed in broader context in the Wall Street Journal. The article explains the role of 'other nations' discomfort with the U.S. as the world's only superpower, unafraid of taking unilateral action,' a fear intensified by the U.S.'s move to halt the introduction of .xxx domains for pornography sites. In a related column, Frederick Kempe opens the floor for a debate between the diplomat leading talks for the U.S., and the former journalist from Luxembourg leading the effort to move the Internet away from U.S. control. 'Today, in a globalized world in which the Internet has become a global resource for freedom of expression and for economic exchange, this monopolistic oversight of the Internet by one government is no longer a politically tenable solution,' Viviane Reding says. Kempe also suggests ways the two sides can split the difference."
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Behind the Fight to Control the Internet

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:43PM (#13873806)
    Splitting up would probably be a bad thing - I dream of the old days of one domain registrar - now you have to jump through 13 hoops to update dns servers, domains, etc... Imagine if you have to do the same for IP? no thanks...
  • Finally. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by millennial ( 830897 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:45PM (#13873823) Journal
    I'm surprised this hasn't received more mainstream coverage in the U.S. I've heard nothing from CNN, Headline News, Fox News, or MSNBC about this. I don't get CBC or BBC News here, so I don't know if they've covered it. Something with such wide-sweeping effects really should be getting an appropriate amount of attention.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Look at all of the people on /. that don't seem to understand the precise technical details of what is going on, and reduce the argument to simplistic claims about "the US controlling the net"

      If the average /.-er doesn't really understand what is going on, can you really expect the average CNN viewer to understand?
    • Re:Finally. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Yes but then you'd have to explain the concept of DNS to the unwashed masses. People don't really care how the technology works just that it does.

      If there is a split, I'm sure there will be some complex solution we techies will have to come up with that can act as a band-aid between the two "root domains." People will give a collective yawn and go back to their porn.
    • Re:Finally. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Iriel ( 810009 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:54PM (#13873905) Homepage
      Unfortunately, I fear that educating the american public about this issue would garner a response that would only foster the opinions held by other nations for supporting a division of control. Let the news give a little "now you know..." segment before hand, and everyone would be screaming that 'We made it, we should keep it!' which doesn't really make us look any better the rest of the world.

      Please don't correct me with a torch because I honestly don't know where I stand on the issue. I see downsides to dividing control, but I can also conceive of the problems if america would ever be reduced to a police state in the future. Our (US) government is not perpetual, and any system can fall. If it did, the rest of the world wouldn't want the internet governed by whatever restriction could come about in such a case.

      The masses are sadly uninformed about a lot of issues that are important to them because a lot of people lack the underlying knowledge about the subject to make a solid argument.
      • by jmorris42 ( 1458 ) * <jmorris@[ ]u.org ['bea' in gap]> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:11PM (#13874068)
        > Our (US) government is not perpetual, and any system can fall. If it did, the rest of
        > the world wouldn't want the internet governed by whatever restriction could come about
        > in such a case.

        Don't worry about the root DNS servers if the US ever completes it's slide to socialism or lurches towards a police state. Just remember that the US of A is THE number one power on this planet and the implications of that. No, if we go over to the Dark Side I can personally promise everyone that they won't be worrying about what we order ICANN to do to the root name servers; no you guys will be far too busy cowering in terror from our war machine.

        Which is why I prefer the root servers stay under the Dept of Commerce. Moving it to the UN has enormous downside potential and zero upside. So long as the US remains the lone force holding the line against the Darkness and defending Truth, Justice and Western Civilization there isn't a problem leaving ICANN in charge of DNS. Should we sucumb to the Darkness, lose the will to continue holding the line or be ultimately defeated by the barbarians, it just doesn't matter anymore because the whole world will slide into a new Dark Ages anyway.
        • by falconwolf ( 725481 ) <falconsoaring_2000@yah o o .com> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:35PM (#13874329)

          So long as the US remains the lone force holding the line against the Darkness and defending Truth, Justice and Western Civilization there isn't a problem leaving ICANN in charge of DNS

          While I don't want to see a new government organization or the UN to take control of the internet or DNS, there is a problem as it is now. ICANN had all but approved the .XXX domain but because a few Christian groups complained to the Commerce Department it forced the ICANN to drop the domain. That's neither open, democratic, nor a free market.

          Falcon
          • by jmorris42 ( 1458 ) * <jmorris@[ ]u.org ['bea' in gap]> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @03:51PM (#13875191)
            > ICANN had all but approved the .XXX domain but because a few Christian groups complained...

            Good for them, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. .xxx was THE most stupid idea to come down the pike in a decade. So I really don't care who finally managed to get it put on hold, so long as it NEVER, EVER goes live as a tld. It would literally be the end of the Internet as we have known it.

            In a single stroke it would transform the Internet from a free and open instuition into one that was mandated by law to be child safe. .xxx would be banned universally yet all objectionable (read as not fit for a five year old) content would be forced to .xxx to avoid lawsuits. No, let us instead create .kids and lock the kiddies browswer to only go there.
        • Just remember that the US of A is THE number one power on this planet and the implications of that. No, if we go over to the Dark Side I can personally promise everyone that they won't be worrying about what we order ICANN to do to the root name servers; no you guys will be far too busy cowering in terror from our war machine.

          It's not war or invasion that other nations are likely to be concerned about. Blowing things up is only the final option of a long chain of ways the USA can influence other nat

      • Unfortunately, I fear that educating the american public about this issue would garner a response that would only foster the opinions held by other nations for supporting a division of control. Let the news give a little "now you know..." segment before hand, and everyone would be screaming that 'We made it, we should keep it!' which doesn't really make us look any better the rest of the world.

        See, I am educated about the issue, I *still* say we should keep it, and I don't care a lick what the bulk of the

      • Re:Finally. (Score:3, Insightful)

        ...everyone would be screaming that 'We made it, we should keep it!' which doesn't really make us look any better the rest of the world.

        Given that the rest of the world seems to be screaming that "you made it, we want it, now hand it over!", I'm not sure who we'd be looking good for, I'm not sure they'd appreciate it, and I'm not sure looking good would end up being a pointful exercise in any way. Certainly not so pointful as to be a worthwhile exchange for giving up control of the Internet to, say, Chi
    • Because the second CNN or Fox mention "DNS" or even "Domain Name" the american public with switch to another channel that has some stupid reality TV show.

      Let's face it, most people don't have a clue about how the internet really works. In fact, I'm sure most americans don't even know the internet was started as a government project.

      The average american knows that they use the internet to get porn and to check their email. Beyond that, most people could care less. That's why I get my news online.
      • Because the second CNN or Fox mention "DNS" or even "Domain Name" the american public with switch to another channel that has some stupid reality TV show.

        Which, of course, is different than any other country, where mention of such terms causes all conversation to stop as everyone focuses on the news.

        Or not.
    • I guess they make up for it by posting a story on it here twice daily.

      Anyway, I don't think any one country or organization should control it. We should go to a decentralized system and then everyone would be equally happy (or unhappy if they had plans to use this control).
    • Much Better Article (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mplex ( 19482 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @03:40PM (#13875052)
      The best coverage of the issue I've seen so far is from Foreign Affairs:

      http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20051101facomment846 02/kenneth-neil-cukier/who-will-control-the-intern et.html [foreignaffairs.org]

      They place it in perspective, but also point out the nations who are shouting the loudest are also the least free. Overall, a good read.
  • .xxx domains (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sedyn ( 880034 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:45PM (#13873830)
    FTA: "Icann had tentatively approved the new domain name, called .xxx, several months earlier, but at the last moment the Department of Commerce removed its support, after it said it received thousands of letters of complaint from conservative Christian groups and others."

    Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home?

    I mean, what's easier to spot as porn (domain names made up because I'm at work and cannot check for a good example):

    searchmovies.com or searchmovies.xxx
    • I think the problem would be that it is completely voluntary for sites that contain porn to use an xxx domain. Also, all (i would assume) xxx sites would contain porn. This means people would have an easy way of knowing where to find porn. Blocking the xxx domains would be useless, because there would still be a lot of porn with .com domain names. Also, it removes the use of the excuse that you visited some site by accident.
    • Re:.xxx domains (Score:3, Insightful)

      Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain?

      Because

      • An .xxx TLD affords the appearance of legitimacy, integration and acceptance
      • They have an opportunity to protest prawnography - many of them simply protest prawnography because they have to protest something to prove their dedication
    • It's analogous to environmentalists opposing nuclear power simply because "it's evil and must be stopped at all costs", even though it would help the environment rather than hurt it.

      However, it's unclear to me whether DoC can actually halt ICANN introducing .xxx, or whether ICANN is merely being courteous. Whenever I read commentary on the topic, they usually say that DoC blocked .xxx, but when I read news reports, they always talk in more nebulous terms that suggest that DoC is acting in an advisory capac
    • Re:.xxx domains (Score:4, Insightful)

      by kotku ( 249450 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:56PM (#13873936) Journal
      >> Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home?

      Quite the opposite. My guess is that all these fundies are closet porn eaters but are worried that if all the porn goes .XXX they can't pretend they were viewing sites by accident when they get busted surfing porn on their PSP during sermon time.
    • Re:.xxx domains (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF ( 813746 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:57PM (#13873944)

      Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home?

      You're failing to understand puritanism. These people are not interested in blocking porn so they don't have to see it. They are interested in making porn illegal so you can't see it. Anything that legitimizes porn, or makes it less offensive and less of a problem for the general populace is something they are against. Similarly, puritans are not against gay marriage because they are afraid they might be forced to marry someone of the same sex. They are against it because they are terrified that somewhere, someone might be having butt sex and only by acting like complete jackasses can they advertise to everyone that they, do not want butt sex (I suspect because many of them secretly do and are ashamed of that fact).

      • by WinterSolstice ( 223271 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:29PM (#13874244)
        What you are looking for is the old quote:

        "Puritan : Someone who is afraid that, somewhere, someone else is having a good time."
        - H. L. Mencken.

        -WS
      • So why don't we create a .KKK domain for the Klan. Using your logic, this would wipe out their ability to talk about hateful things on the internet, and it would keep anyone from accessing hateful material.

        But its such flawed logic even a baby can grasp the errors. First, you would be rewarding the klan by acknowledging their influence with a special .KKK TLD.

        Second, it wouldn't work, because some people would purposely want to talk about hate in non-KKK TLDs (like slashdot.org). And then you are back to
    • Re:.xxx domains (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Spy der Mann ( 805235 ) <spydermann.slash ... com minus distro> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:58PM (#13873958) Homepage Journal
      but at the last moment the Department of Commerce removed its support, after it said it received thousands of letters of complaint from conservative Christian groups and others.

      Which is the reason why ONE SINGLE country should NOT be in control of internet domains. Many (if not the majority of) internet users are _NOT_ christian, why should christians of the U.S. be messing around? Now suppose it wasn't christians, but scientologists. Ta-da! Instant censorship of the internet, driven by private groups.

      Allowing conservative, liberal or whatever groups in a single country to determine the availability of domain names, is nothing but expanding corporate lobbying into scopes way beyond the U.S. government.

      After all, this is one of the reasons why we have the United Nations. Right?
      • "After all, this is one of the reasons why we have the United Nations. Right?"

        Not really...it was put together as a forum for nations to discuss world matters, but, not as a regulatory body of any type with any enforcement powers.

        The UN never has had any REAL teeth it can enforce things with...and wasn't meant to have them.

        Countries can use it as a forum to discuss things...and maybe put forth a resolution they can agree upon...but, no one is forced to observe it.

    • Re:.xxx domains (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Gryphn ( 513900 )
      Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home


      Because they want porn to disappear entirely. "Porn is sinful". Making "sinful" things easier to avoid is not as important making those "sinful" things illegal.
    • Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home?

      These people are not in favour of choice on this kind of issues, they are against the idea of people having access to porn period. They use the demand for blocking sites only as a weapon, as they know the cost and technical impossibility of the task helps their agenda. Having .xxx the domain will make filtering extremely simple weakening their arguments and loosing them support. And b
    • Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain?

      Because .xxx would do nothing.
      -Who enforces it?
      -Who defines it?
      -It adds an air of legitimacy to porn
      -Blocking "xxx" at work would be no certainty of no porn. It would block some, but with no enforcement, certainly not all.

      Basically, add another TLD, with no real benefit.

    • Why wouldn't these people be in favour of an .xxx domain? Hell, wouldn't it make it easier to block sites at work or home?

      Because they don't see it that way.

      They want to pretend those sites don't exist, and/or want the ones that do exist banned or shut down altogether, and don't want anything that legitimizes it.

      They feel that the fantasy of somehow "banning" all porn sites could still become a reality if porn sites aren't "legitimized" with their own top level domain.

      Therefore, they oppose the creation of
    • So let the world add a .xxx domain to their tables. It's just a few lines of text...there all done... ... ...
      See how much it affected me, here in the US. The VERY worst that would happen would be that the US TLD does not resolve .xxx and you get the dreaded "Address Not Found" error.

      "Great weeping websites, Batman. What shall we do?"

      I know what the REAL problem is. The portentious polliticians out there waving their porkers don't want to miss out on any of our great AMERICAN porn. That's right. Even t
  • by imbaczek ( 690596 ) <imbaczek@poczGIR ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:45PM (#13873832) Journal
    So when's the invasion^Wliberation of Luxembourg due?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:47PM (#13873839)
    Here's a recap of the technical side of things as they are now:

    It is common for a country to host its own TLD servers (the servers which tell you what a particular domain under for example .fr points to). The German DENIC for example operates 11 domain name servers which serve the .de domain from all over the world, including 2 in the USA. Only a few small countries have outsourced the task of serving their own CCTLD to an operator of their choice.

    In addition to the CCTLD servers, several countries around the world operate root DNS servers (the servers which for example tell you where to ask about .de). Since almost two years there are more root DNS servers outside the USA than inside. These servers are paid for and administered by organizations outside the USA.

    So far, the people who run these root DNS servers have agreed to serve a common "root zone file" as decided on by ICANN. You see, what many people on this forum propose, that "the rest of the world" should start running their own DNS servers and see how that goes, has been in effect for years. If someone in Germany asks for the .com TLD server, then most likely an instance of the K-root-server (in Frankfurt, Germany) will (correctly) answer this question. Someone in the Netherlands gets the answer from another instance of the K-root-server in Amsterdam. People in the United Arab Emirates ask an instance of the F-root-server in Dubai. Nobody needs to be forced by law to use "other" root DNS servers. Everybody already does.

    Absolutely the only thing which keeps the DNS from fracturing is the international agreement on a standard definition of the root zone. This agreement is crumbling and if no multilateral solution is found, DNS will become ambiguous.

    When people say that users would have to be forced to use alternate servers to make changes take effect, then they clearly don't understand the situation. When they say that everybody uses the US-owned and thus US-controlled internet, then they clearly don't understand the situation. When they say that other countries lack the resources, then they clearly don't understand the situation. It is blatantly obvious that most people who "dare" the rest of the world to try the split have no idea how little stands in the way of that move, both politically and technically.
    • The internet routes around this damage just fine. Technically nothing prevents my ISP from pointing their DNS serervs to a "free" root zone in Europe, Brazil, India, etc. Heck, I can point my home resolv.conf's at any number of "free" DNS end resolvers that I am sure will be popping up everywhere.

      However, if the US gummint tries to tell my ISP which root servers to point to, or blocks DNS service from offshore, we have got a serious problem on our hands.
      • ermm, wouldn't it just be america's problem ?, if the rest of the world decided on a common root zone and america kept on using its own it would only cause problems accessing american sites right ?. I reckon patriotism and national pride would soon be forgotten as soon as the DOW plumets.
        • by Quadraginta ( 902985 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @03:28PM (#13874926)
          Dear me, I don't think it would be the US economy that suffers more. Remember the trade balance! On the world economic stage the United States is far more often a consumer than a producer.

          The commercial part of the Internet is largely used for reaching customers, yes? And the largest and wealthiest concentration of customers, that every company with a website in the world would like to reach is in the United States. That is, it's way more important to Toyota, Inc. that Americans reach www.toyota.com correctly than it is important to Ford that Japanese reach www.ford.com correctly.

          There's a good reason the US can throw its weight around with import tariffs. The market in the US is so large that access to it can make or break an international producer. The same is not true about a US producer, since he has direct access to the enormous domestic market. Same thing with 'net access, I'm afraid. In this silly game the US holds four aces. I'm not saying this makes their position right, just that in a real showdown the official UN-sponsored "international" DNS system seems likely to go the way of the official UN-sponsored "international" language (French), namely it would end up being used by UN bureaucrats and governments only.
  • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 )
    Other nations don't trust the US anymore. Including our "allies", who are taking the hits for our catastrophic invasion of Iraq - even cutting their losses by abandoning the "Coalition of the Billing" hasn't repaired the damage suffered by those who joined it at all. And the "monopoly" reference shows just how bad the US looks for letting Microsoft keep up business as usual admitting they're a huge monopoly.
    • While all that may be true, lack of trust is not necessary to explain why people who have a stake in the Internet might reasonably want to have a say in its governance. From TFA:
      But several countries, led by developing nations, now argue that since the Internet is a global tool, no one country should control it. They contend that decisions should fall under the jurisdiction of an international body, such as the United Nations.
      • That's code for "my dirty little corrupt regime wants to get our hands in this cookie jar, and that won't happen until the US loses control and those lazy, corrupt UN officials basically hand it over to us".
        • Nope that's code for "The internet are a valuable global economic tool, which we more and more depend on. We don't trust a government who regularly(in the last 110 years or so) have used military intervention in foreign countries to aid US economic interest, to have sole controll over it." And before anyone starts the flaming please read up on US history since 1900 or so. You will find something like 70 or more cases.
    • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )
      " Other nations don't trust the US anymore. "
      The truth is that the US doesn't trust the UN and for pretty good reasons. I do wonder how many "countries" really care about the US having root control. I am all for the US keeping control or the root domains but I would be willing to allow the UN to control it under some conditions.
      1. No censorship of political or religious speech in any nation that uses the Internet. Each nation may establish rules on pornography.
      2. Pricing to be set by the US and for it to un
      • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @03:23PM (#13874876) Homepage Journal
        I'm all for nations not trusting one another, just out of simple principles of power. Or rather, to take up Reagan on his PR, "trust, but verify". The US has been cruising on trust earned in other times, by other Americans, for too long, and now chickens are coming home to roost. I welcome foreign pressure for us to clean up our act, because inadequate domestic pressure has merely propelled us to the edge of the abyss. For example, "US standards of financial reporting" now appear to include Andersen/WorldCom/Enron. We've got to rebuild that credibility

        I'd like to see some "Universal Declaration of the Communications Rights of Humans" enforced with teeth by the UN. But your specific formulation has problems. Is trying people for "treasonous conspiricies" communicated over the Internet, like planning the assassination of a ruler, "censorship"? Can one nation's mailorder underwear ads be prosecuted in another nation where they're consumed? These are big, complex, globally important issues. We need the US to lead with credibility as a "fair dealer", and for diplomats to negotiate the work.
  • Tinkering... (Score:2, Insightful)

    From TFA: "Governments have not really understood the inner workings of the Internet," said Mr. McKnight. In the past two years, "they have gotten educated and now they want to get their hands on the levers."

    This reminds me of a child just shown how to do something new. They see Dad riding a bike or working on the car and they want to try. How often are their attempts at emulating the actions of an experienced person successful? Would you really allow your child to poke around the engine compartment of your
    • There is a reason why important jobs generally require years of experience...not just an education.

      Other countries have been running root servers for many years, they just have been making sure the domains ICANN is running are in synch with the U.S. root server list. Also, most countries have been managing their own country specific TLD servers and allocation of domains for many years. Exactly what other experience, other than implementing a UN agreed upon, rather than US agreed upon root list would you

  • Questions (Score:2, Informative)

    1. Why in many of these articles is there no consideration for the facts that:

    - The US, and the massive US military-industrial complex many despise, was essentially solely responsible for creating the internet (note: I am talking about the *internet*, not the world wide web, which itself would not have existed were it not for the internet)?

    - Aside from the politics and issues surrounding .xxx, that the US has proven itself to be a capable caretaker of the internet and the root servers (several of which are
    • Some answers (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      1) "solely responsible for creating the internet" well german more or less inveted the diesel motor. Why it is that the US do not consider that the german are sole inventor of the diesel motor ? Answer : Because once the genie is out of the bottle, and used by most economies as a "resource", you have no "special" or "natural" right anymore to control it. And german+diesel engine is not the sole example of inventsion coming from one country but then get its usage wide-spread.

      As for your second arguement,
    • Re:Questions (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:14PM (#13874104) Homepage Journal
      the US has proven itself to be a capable caretaker of the internet

      You can't seriously be suggesting ICANN are doing a good job, can you? It's an undemocratic monumental, expensive, indecisive, grindingly slow moving organisation that does nothing at all about cybersquatters and adds new TLDs purely so you have to buy more versions of your existing domain every time they want a bit more cash?

      Moving to an international system would make no difference whatsoever to the daily functioning of the net, all that would change is that ICANN would be replaced by something else - and I find it hard to imagine that it could be replaced by anything worse.
      • Re:Questions (Score:4, Insightful)

        by The Master Control P ( 655590 ) <ejkeever@nerdNETBSDshack.com minus bsd> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @05:30PM (#13876258)
        I find it hard to imagine that it could be replaced by anything worse.
        I don't. I imagine Iran, Saudi Arabia, and China having a say in the operation of the world's biggest experiment in free speech and shudder. As much as I dislike the state of affairs in Washington DC and you dislike ICANN, it could get a LOT worse. Do you want countries that murder people who don't agree with the state religion having a say in DNS? That run over protesters with tanks? In the USA, the only online activity that'll really put you behind bars is one you deserve it for: child porn. In Saudi Arabia or China, suggesting that the wonderful government might possibly not be doing the best job running the country will get you shot.

        If we're going to have multilateral control of DNS, then at least everyone who has control should have to sign an Internet Bill of Rights...
    • Re:Questions (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF ( 813746 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @03:11PM (#13874753)

      The US, and the massive US military-industrial complex many despise, was essentially solely responsible for creating the internet

      And we gave deadly gas to Saddam Hussein, what does this have to do with deciding the proper governance of root servers?

      Aside from the politics and issues surrounding .xxx, that the US has proven itself to be a capable caretaker of the internet and the root servers (several of which are outside of the US, albeit under ultimate control of the US)?

      I think a lot of people disagree. Aside from the .xxx tld, they have given control of .com to very unscrupulous people who intentionally violated their agreement and broke routing worldwide for profit. They just gave control of .com to that same company for another 7 years with no competitive bidding and no public discourse. They have consistently failed to implement the hundreds of tld recommendations from IANA over the last decade. They are not democratically elected, have no representatives from most of the large players that actually run the internet, and have no transparent processes. The changed their own charter and removed all democratically elected members. They have consistently gouged companies around the world for "yet another" registration as they start yet another .com TLD clone for profit. They have done nothing about cyber-squatters or respecting international trademarks. That is not exactly capable care taking.

      As to the root servers, most of them (physical machines) are located, paid for, and maintained by foreign companies and reside outside the U.S.

      Why is there no consideration that other governments jockeying for position and control over DNS and the root servers could and probably will actually provide a greater chance for problems, mismanagement, miscommunication, and so on?

      Because by distributing responsibility you need a majority of countries to agree before they can really mess things up, as opposed to just the US, which is already messing things up and is likely to do so more in the future.

      Why is there this concept floated in every one of these articles that makes it seem as if nations will have no choice but to create their "own" internets, disconnected from the "primary" internet, simply because of DNS? I'd say the stupidity and arrogance of disconnecting from the internet and making your own, whether out of principle or some perceived need to have a new top level domain, trumps any stupidity and arrogance of the internet's original creator and caretaker retaining control...

      The root server list is simply an agreed upon standard, decided by the U.S. and incompatible with other standards, more or less by definition. If the whole world agrees to move the standard in one direction, not chosen by the US, and the US disagrees, who is it that is being arrogant and stupid?

      To put it another way, if you were the minister of technology in the Iraq, Russia, or Chile would you recommend that your government invest billions in and build a technological infrastructure for all communications within and outside your country upon which your economy is dependent, if you knew a political shift in Washington could completely cripple that architecture? Would you not feel safer if it required a majority of countries to agree to cripple your infrastructure and if you were given the opportunity to have representation when decisions were made?

      Would you feel the same way if the U.S. was investing in this architecture, but Poland was the one making all the decisions and running the root list. Would you think it would be fair to pay Poland for a listing so theirs can connect to you on your network with your hardware using their network and their hardware? I'm serious, if Poland were running the root servers would you advocate that they remain in control or would you prefer the U.N. run the root server system?

      • Re:Questions (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sane? ( 179855 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @04:15PM (#13875484)
        I think at the heart of all the many discussions about this subject is a problem of perception. Many of those in the US tend to consider themselves to be part of a 'special' country, one which is unique and able to do what it likes. Their mental model has the US account for 80% of the world, with a few quaint countries allowed to continue as tourist destinations. They have been taught since early school years that they really do live in a free society, a shinning pinnacle for others to look up to. The idea that others might say 'no' strikes them as peculiar and wrong.

        Those outside the US tend to view the US as a single country, strange in many of its habits and with a track record of dangerous mistimed interference. They recognise its problems, as well as what it can do well, and are quite happy for it to be 'one-of-the-crowd', but with no special position. Recent events have shown it currently cannot be trusted, and they therefore are preparing to take back some of the reins of power it currently holds.

        Where these two viewpoints clash is in who can make things happen as they see fit. As others have pointed out, the change to a UN control function requires no US agreement. From the 'world is US' perspective, they are creating a small offshoot, nothing to worry about. From the 'real world' perspective they will essentially partition off the US from the rest of the world, allowing it to diverge from the real internet under its own steam.

        In the end the real impact is in how any change separates and isolates the US, if only in a small way. Combine this with the inherent US viewpoint of CONUS and its just one more step along the line towards a point where the world takes action against the US to prevent it undertaking some action it attempts, because the 'real world' cannot accept it crossing a line. When you take into account the US is essentially in debt to that world, if becomes akin to the bank manager withdrawing your credit because of your 'strange' behaviour - its very swift, very destructive, and causes a significant shock to the psyche. Here's hoping that the US realises its in its interest to reach a compromise on this issue, akin to the one the EU is attempting to broker. It will be easier to reach a UN hosted solution where no one country can censor free speech/tax commerce if the US plays its part; rather than acting as a young child, unable to recognise others as complete independent entities.

    • Re:Questions (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dcam ( 615646 )
      - The US, and the massive US military-industrial complex many despise, was essentially solely responsible for creating the internet (note: I am talking about the *internet*, not the world wide web, which itself would not have existed were it not for the internet)?

      I think that this statement (repeated every time an article of this sort comes up) should be modded flamebait. You are posting something that is largely orthogonal to the discussion, whether you are doing this deliberately or not.

      Several points:

      1.
  • by MyNameIsFred ( 543994 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:49PM (#13873860)
    From the article, the real issue seems to be the US Commerce Dept dropping support for a new XXX domain. This is perceived as causing ICANN to drop support. Any insiders with info on what happened?
  • by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:53PM (#13873893) Homepage Journal
    What are they going to do? Mass packets at the border routers and run network simulations in an attempt to scare the US?

    Fragment the internet? Yeah, right. Goverments cater to business interests and there's no way said business interests will sit idly while their governments screw with the business's bottom lines.

    This is much ado about nothing.

    Oh, and somebody needs to tell Zonk that the defintion of "slashdotted" does not mean 'previously appearing on slashdot'.

  • When I think of the potential for human rights abusers like China and Iran to use the excuse that the US is somehow obligated to give up its limited control of the Internet, I shiver. I'm no Bush lover, no apologist for the US, but you know what, I wouldn't trust the UN as far as I could throw it. Not with the Internet. Doubtless guys like Robert Mugabe would end up having a say, and no amount of weak-kneed promises from UN officials is going to make a damn bit of difference.
  • Is Nick Fury [wikipedia.org] on the case? If so, we have nothing to worry about!

    There's also a saying about too many cooks that might apply here.

  • For fucks sake... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Psionicist ( 561330 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @01:55PM (#13873919)
    Stop referring to the root DNS servers as "control of the Internet!". Absolutely anyone can set up their own DNS-servers and call them root (in fact, I set up my own DNS and redirected all ".test"-domains to another computer in the network, just to show a friend it could be done). The only reason the current root servers are considered important is because everyone use them.
    • I certainly agree with you. It's like saying that the guys who paint the exit numbers are in charge of the interstates.

      This issue is being used by foreign political leaders as a jumping off point for rhetoric, but the issue is really a minor one.

      To me, the real news here is that the US's relationship with the rest of the world has gotten so bad that countries are starting to needlessly pick unproductive fights.
  • I'm selfish, but... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by stimpleton ( 732392 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:00PM (#13873977)

    I'm selfish. But I suspect I could be representitive of a fair chunk of the population.

    I live in New Zealand, live for computers, love my internet, games(many violent), and my credit card gets a workout on porn sites.

    My concern for many of the world's events is orientated around how it might affect my internet.

    However, in NZ, our tech infrastructure is near 3rd world, We rank 22 in OECD broadband surveys. We have a fibre optic cable that runs from our coast to the US west coast(Oh how I wish they'd run it to Taiwan).

    All this stirring by the US worries me:
    - The re-interpetation of the US 2257 porn laws, with examples of prosecutions now. - The .xxx domain issue. - The US's trend to offer rewards to nations who are loyal to the US....and punish those that are not in the US's pocket.

    The only saving grace might be the fact the cable runs thru us from Australia, who are effectively, just another state of the US now. Thus they need us.

    I fear the US's attitude to that uppity free thinking(anti-nuclear) nation, New Zealand. Where the Crazy frog ring tone videos play at prime-time with his attributes non-censored.

    I can hear the sound of US scissors snipping my beloved fibre optic cable.
    • That's GOT to produce some really rotten ping times.....unless it goes only to Hawaii.
    • I'm not quite sure how to react when I read things like this.

      First of all, the US isn't going to disconnect New Zealand from the internet or cut anyone's fiber.

      Second, the "reinterpretation" of the laws is designed to make sure that porn performers are of legal age. Period. If you have problems with that and think they should be able to be younger than 18, or that porn sites shouldn't be able to produce records that indicate that they ARE over 18, then we probably won't see eye to eye on this. No matter how
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Who's going to tell China?
  • it's not that simple (Score:5, Informative)

    by feepcreature ( 623518 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:10PM (#13874062) Homepage
    There is a lot of nonsense talked about "Control of The Internet". In reality it's not that simple. There is no one organisation that controls all of the net. Different functions are carried out by different groups.

    Address allocation (to ISPs) is carried out by Regional Internet Registries, from their allocations. For Europe, it is RIPE. ARIN controls the Americas. APNIC controls the Asia and Pacific regions. AfriNIC is Africa. LACNIC does Latin America and the Caribbean. Allocation of addresses TO those organisations (from the scarce IPv4 address pool, and the much more abundant IP v6 pool) is a different question. ISPs allocate addresses in turn to their customers. IPv4 and IPv6 can interoperate (sort of) and IPv6 is quite widely deployed in Asia, where IPv4 addresses are in short supply.

    Protocols are defined by groups like the Internet Engineering Task Force and working groups - any internet user can participate, if they know what they are talking about. They are adopted by consensus among internet users (and major ISPs and vendors). To a large degree, the protocols determine how much control there can be over any given internet application (like email, or the web, or internet telephony).

    Top Level Domain Names are split into Country names (generally controlled by countries, or their nominees), and Generic ones (where control is awarded by ICANN).

    This depends entirely on individual ISPs and Users taking their DNS information from the base name servers (and their descendents) controlled by ICANN. There are alternatives, like OpenNIC, which administer their own root servers and top level domains, like .glue) - any internet user can select these.

    It's more complicated than that even :-)

    But yes, the US Dept of Commerce controls the department that awards ICANN its power. The rest of the world COULD ignore ICANN if they wanted - but they probably won't. Mostly they don't need to.

    It's not THAT bad yet. And the UN could be worse... more interfering... more clueless... more corrupt...
  • the real problem is that .com is often seen as a .usa TLD (or is it .us?)...

    if all the national us commersial sites would move to the correct domain and stop grabbing every .com that is out there then who would have cared? every nation is in total control under their own national domain.

    hmm, maybe we should just remove all those non-national TLDs? then there would not be a problem...
  • 'other nations' discomfort with the U.S. as the world's only superpower, unafraid of taking unilateral action

    I love this bit of political spin (and I'm American)- nothing like ignoring all those pesky countries with nukes (and armed forces big enough to "project" their power anywhere in the world.) I thought the term "superpower" really wasn't used anymore, since size doesn't really matter in a lot of ways.

    It's a "white elephant" issue if I ever saw one...

  • Internet vs DNS (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kevinbr ( 689680 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:14PM (#13874099)
    As usual everyone keeps confusing the "Internet" with the DNS.

    Common Quote - We invented it, we want to keep it.

    This of course is a stupid argument - the Internet is many things - WWW being the most obvious. And the Web was invented where?

    Common misconception - repressive countries need to control DNS root servers to repress......not so.

    Cisco and other vendors sell products that today succeed in blocking site not allowed. Most Arab countries filter the internet behind proxy servers and cisco firewalls.

    The real issue at stake is that ICANN is an opaque organization that was handed control of the root file with no REAL input from ALL internet stakeholders. ICANN today holds the power to drop any country off the DNS system. The EU itself had to apply for permission to ICANN for the .EU domain. ICANN could have refused, as they did for .XXX. ICANN decides who in a country get delegated control of that TLD management function of a country.

    The real issue is that prior to 1998, IANA had plans to open up hundreds of top level domains......which plans were then shelved with no open process by ICANN. http://www.gtld-mou.org/gtld-discuss/mail-archive/ 00990.html [gtld-mou.org]

    The reality? Most Americans have no idea where ICANN came from or how it works or how it is not really beneficial for them, but they invoke this maddening knee jerk blind patriotism - it's ours and we run it. Sad that they have no idea who "we" is. ICANN is not "we". ICANN is undemocratic even for Americans, and is secretive. ICANN is in bed with WIPRO and seems to have a policy that supports big business. ICANN has no idea of trademark law. in short ICANN is NOT the answer for DNS governance.
    • Re:Internet vs DNS (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ad0gg ( 594412 )
      Lets see ICANN has been doing this around for 5+ years with no problems or scandals. And then imagine if UN did take it over, we would see "DNS TLDs for money" scandals. As for ICANN being under US control, you should take a look at their board of directors [icann.org], notice how Americans are the minorities compared to the total amount of foreign directors.
  • Jeez, not this subject again.

    Today, the 2000th American soldier died for his country in Iraq (of all rotten places, fgs).

    Today, it also looks as if indictments are just about to be handed down on two of the President's key aides.

    And this is the news that, allegedly, preoccupies us all.

    Are politicians that desperate to distract attention from far more important matters? Let's forget about brave men dying like dogs and worry about whether we'll still be able to order groceries online next Tuesday!
  • Nothing new to see here: just the same ridiculous posturing we've been hearing about for months now that will have absolutely no effect on the reality of who controls the root servers.
  • by linuxrunner ( 225041 ) on Tuesday October 25, 2005 @02:36PM (#13874347)
    More like the UN wants control so they can TAX people... Censor people.... etc

    More info here:
    http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles /2005/10/17/dont_give_un_control_over_internet/?pa ge=1 [boston.com]

    That's from the Liberal "Boston Globe" newspaper. No choir boys there... They hate this administration, but it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the UN being inept at doing anything correct.

    "imagine a UN member with a lot of clout, and a very low regard for freedom of speech -- China, say. ICANN accredits the companies that sell domain names to Internet users like you and me. Suppose a democracy activist wants to register domain names like downwithchina.com. If China had a say in ICANN affairs, it could push to have such domain names prohibited."

    That article speaks volumes, and is a HELL of a lot better written then the parent post.

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