Motorola's Linux Phones Frustrate Developers 143
n8willis writes "Three years after Motorola first announced it was migrating its smart phones to Linux -- and a dozen models later -- there are still virtually no third-party applications for them, much less open source ones. Symbian and Microsoft both give away free SDKs to all willing developers, but Motorola seems to be putting up hurdles instead. An article on NewsForge asks why is this the case?" NewsForge is a Slashdot sister site.
Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:1)
Convenience (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Amazing things can be done with this phone. IF motorola released a tiny bit of onfo for the one interface they are keeping secret.
They want you to do the java route and hide behind the lie that the mobile phone companies worry about security while Symbian and Microsoft encourage development for their platforms.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
1.DRM. Allowing people inside could allow access to the secret key of the phone that is used to decrypt protected content.
2.Featureset. Motorola might want to sell a phone with in it. This camera & chip might be physically capable of recording video but Motorola might decide to disable the feature on a particular phone for whatever reason (which might include wanting to sell a higher end phone with video
Re:Well... (Score:1)
and of course, that old chestnut:
6.You'll poke your eye out!
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
so why bother with linux at all ? trying to ride da wave ?
2.Featureset. Motorola might want to sell a phone with in it. This camera & chip might be physically capable of recording video but Motorola might decide to disable the feature...
oh. i just hate companies that act like this. it seems like an advertisment for capitalism.
3.Carriers. For example, Verizon might want Motorola to di
Re:Well... (Score:1, Offtopic)
There is a student in my Advanced Placement Computer Science class that had never seen or ran linux before.
We convinced our teacher that we HAVE to install Ubuntu so that everyone in his intro computer classes had a chance to mess around with and at least be familiar with it. This student had no idea how to use linux, even less the command prompt. Such things that I take for granted like Ctrl-C to stop programs, and ls/dir to list directories. The fact that he can go
parent is off-topic, but.... (Score:1, Offtopic)
...I'll bite anyway. Most US school systems seem to be all-windows now. Macs used to be a significant minority here, but they were simply priced out of market, I think
When I was at elementary school (Fairfax Co, VA, ca 1990...yay, that made me sound young!) things were a little more heterogeneous: there were maybe a dozen IBM-compatible PCs running MS-DOS, another dozen old microcomputers (can't remember if they were commodore or atari). Many classrooms, though, had Apple IIgs computers.
The fact that
Don't forget... (Score:2)
Re:Don't forget... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:1)
Re:Well... (Score:1)
If the people who built my school didn't even think enough of it to give it a *name*, I'd certainly limit my expectations anyway.
The labs in my school, (named after the State of Arizona), have about 50% Windows XP machines and 50% Fedora Core 4 running on Dells. A course in MIPS assembly language programming and hardware organization is required in the first year of CS, the second year has a UNIX programming course requirement.
Re:Well... (Score:1)
Many university CS programs include courses in Computer Organization using Hennessy & Patterson on a MIPS platform, Systems Programming in some flavor of UNIX, OS Development that is definitely NOT Windows-ish, and all the Discrete Math and Automata courses that are not really associated with any given platform.
I have evaluated the CS curriculum of many university programs, and I have not come to the same conclusion that you have.
"I'd like to meet the purchase man
Re:Opera (Score:2)
Not only developers frustrated (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not only developers frustrated (Score:2)
Re:Not only developers frustrated (Score:1)
Re:Not only developers frustrated (Score:2)
Re:Not only developers frustrated (Score:2)
use apt-get to manage contact details is fairly tedious
The Debian Troll's Best [slashdot.org] would disagree with you.
Motorola (Score:1, Insightful)
We're Moto (Score:1)
Shouldn't you be out hassling Goldstar or Nokia somwhere, kid?
Also a problem of availability (Score:2, Insightful)
The specialty dealers take a large profit off the phones since they don't sell that many of them. So nobody has one, you never hear about one so you never know you might actually want one.
This, I think, is really too bad.
Re:Also a problem of availability (Score:3, Informative)
not surprised (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:not surprised (Score:2)
I don't think artists had anything to do with it... Sony Ericson, now they have interfaces that are attractive, obvious and easy to use... this thing has one
Re:not surprised (Score:2)
Re:not surprised (Score:1)
The common assumption: You speak the name or number and the phone dials the right place
The cold hard reality: You have to first
Fire the engineers and marketroids. (Score:4, Interesting)
you have obviously not had the misfortune of having to use Sony/Ericsson's phones, ever.
I have a T610. It's an OK phone, I guess, but there are a number of irritating quirks about it. For instance--there is no easily-discoverable sequence to the "received calls" list. Apparently, some genius thought that linear time is not relevant when considering whose calls you might have just missed. Unfortunately, since I don't live in an experimental piece of modernist fictional literature, I am left wondering who the hell called me and when.
My general complaint with mobile phones is that they have suffered from two great evils: feature bloat and a fetish for miniaturization. My phone is tremendously useful on paper, but the complexity of its operation (for everything but regular phone calls) mean most of those features are essentially useles. Add this to the fact that its tiny size makes controlling it needlessly difficult.
I blame the engineers who put the thing together. I also blame the marketing departments, who have compelled their engineers to fight a generally useless "button race," in the futile hope of being the most "full-featured" phone on the market.
One thing I'll say about Nokia: they've been very good at UI. I might buy one of their phones, next.
Re:Fire the engineers and marketroids. (Score:1)
Re:Fire the engineers and marketroids. (Score:2)
Re:not surprised (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's an example of Motorola UI foolishiness:
If you leave a voice mail on my phone, two dialogs come up. The first says that I have a voicemail waiting. The one following it says "You missed a call from this number: ###-###-####" The first dialog has a 'call voicemail' button. If you press that and re
Re:not surprised (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:not surprised (Score:2)
Re:not surprised (Score:1)
Re:not surprised (Score:1)
Re:not surprised (Score:1)
Re:not surprised (Score:1)
How is this unusual? (Score:5, Informative)
Motorola's customers are NOT we end-users, but the phone companies that buy the phones and get people to sign up to contracts with them. Unless it's those companies kicking up a fuss, Motorola probably couldn't care less. Why should they? Motorola never sold a phone to an individual buyer, only to companies looking for features like locking the phone into a specific network.
Re:How is this unusual? (Score:1)
I'm not the end user?
If that's true then I could bypass the GPL by selling people PCs using cell-phone company like contracts. Loophole!
Unless of course you're wrong. I am the end user. And the GPL does not fail to apply to me just because I'm buying it from Cingular instead of directly from Motorola. When I get a contract, I pay for the phone either through the duration of the contract or contract + whatever extra.
Re:How is this unusual? (Score:1)
Sure they're legally obligated to do certain things, but if they actually gave a damn about people using the phones they'd have an official community, message board, mailing list, developer backing, *ANYTHING*.
Huh? (Score:1)
Sorry, but I have to call BS on this. The RAZR is a hot seller because we end-users choose it, not because the cell phone companies picked it. You could make the case that both of us are customers, but if all us start to buy an iPhone from A-mobile, the others Cell companies will come rushing over to get the same thing. The Cell companies are the middle man, as far as the phone is concerned.
Moto's problem is disconnection from the real customer. They talk first
This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
The big question is, what does Motorola gain by obstructing willing developers from bringing software to their platform?
Well, it keeps the development in the hands of the mobile phone companies using the phone who then will charge their customers to download songs, applications, etc. If they phone is wide open and anyone can develop for it why would anyone pay $2.50/song, $5 to $10/application, etc?
Exactly, they wouldn't and that's why phones with great development environments (like the T-mobile Sidekick) are dead in the water.
Re:This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:2)
"If they phone is wide open and anyone can develop for it why would anyone pay $2.50/song, $5 to $10/application, etc?"
That's true, as far as it goes, but consider an alternative approach: Why not give up a little on the apps and services side of the thing, and make buckets of money by selling gazillions of the devices because people can do more with your phone?
I suspect if they did a proper business case, they'd find, much as Apple has with the iPod, that it's not necessary to sell every little thing t
Re:This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:2)
Being in Australia I don't have to deal with this however.
Re:This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:2)
I would't be surprissed if the telecom moopolies are the cause of this. Like yo said they wat to sell apps through their service and make moey off it Free software and inovation gets in the way of profits.
Verizon would live drmed phoes that can only run software they approve.. oh wait they already do that?
Re:This is because consumers are not the customer (Score:2)
Anyone ever use/own a motorola phone? (Score:2, Insightful)
Odd (Score:2)
In a word (Score:5, Insightful)
Control.
Initial QC is Motorola's biggest flaw (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Initial QC is Motorola's biggest flaw (Score:1)
Re:Initial QC is Motorola's biggest flaw (Score:2)
Re:Initial QC is Motorola's biggest flaw (Score:2)
The highs:
The lows:
Who ever though it would be native apps? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who ever though it would be native apps? (Score:2)
GNU/Hurd Motorola phone? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:GNU/Hurd Motorola phone? (Score:1)
Re:GNU/Hurd Motorola phone? (Score:2)
For shame...
The reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
No mention of Linux on their website (Score:2, Interesting)
The phone specs are not at all detailed, they focus too much on design.
Who would want a phone that looks like a rock?
And the whole HelloMoto thing is just weird. Maybe it works for Japan, but not for the rest of the world.
Above stuff has at least kept me away from motorola.
Sony Ericsson does a lot better on the presentation area.
Motorola should promote the tech side of the phone more.
If I'd known about a Linux phone with decent f
Re:No mention of Linux on their website (Score:2, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is simple (Score:1)
It is not in Motorola's best interest to allow open development and they know it- because that is what their buyers (the phone service companies) tell them. They probably love the low cost and flexibility of Linux but really are not all that interested in seeing much development outside of what THEY want.
Funny how altruistic and "open" a company seems at first, until they realize they might lose control of their "baby".
Now contrast this with the Nokia 770 and you can see that Nokia has a different be
Re:This is simple (Score:1)
>Nokia 770 --- is NOT a cell phone. It is yet another PR hype that wide-eyed linux fans believe as true.
Funny how I know exactly what one is, I own one, I love it, they have sold way beyond what Nokia thought would sell, there are lots of FOSS projects for it already, and it is neither hype nor fantasy.
Don't be so bitter- it is a grea
Re:This is simple (Score:2)
I have the A780. It's based on Montevista Linux. The UI is iffy. It supports SyncML, but not over OBEX. This is apparently the case with all of Moto's Linux phones. If you want to use SyncML, you have to do it over IP. You're options are then to either:
Get a shell, set up ppp over USB, sync.
Get a shell, set up ppp over Bluetooth, sync.
Sync OTA.
Now, if that weren't enough (oh yes, there's more...) you have to come up with a SyncML server. Where???? There's sync4j, b
Re:This is simple (Score:2)
Justin.
Motorola drives me nuts (Score:5, Interesting)
If you replace the built in kernel with an unsigned one, it won't run. I swore my ass off when I learned that, although I wasn't surprised.
For anyone who claims there might be some FCC regulations that prevent this sort of experimentation, you won't produce interference accidentally with these phones. The radio interface is not complicated.
(And don't get me started with Verizon crippling the Motorola phones they sell. It's best to buy the phones independently from the service.)
I think the network service providers (Verizon et al.) should be banned from subsidizing phones, and be should be forced to allow the use of any phone compliant with the their networks' standards. There was an explosion in diversity of landline phones, and massive improvements in their capabilities and prices, when AT&T was similarly forced to untie the endpoint hardware from their network service. I want to see the same explosion occur in the wireless market.
Their goal is to lock you in to old rates for a year or two at a time, and thereby avoid the amazing price competition which occurred in wired network phone service. If buying the handsets is decoupled from subscribing to the network, they'll have no reasonable rational for forcing people to sign long-term contracts, and we'll see proper competition again. I'd be happy as hell to see that. I want phones that serve me, rather than the network service provider.
Re:Motorola drives me nuts (Score:1)
-p
Re:Motorola drives me nuts (Score:1)
Do any service providers sell these? (Score:3, Interesting)
As soon as I see Cingular with a Linux based phone, I will own^H^H^Hp4wNzz0r it.
Availability of Linux Smart Phones (Score:2)
The dirth of linux smart phones has more to do with the weirdness of the US phone market. There are lots of cool linux phones (not just Motorola) that work outside the U
Re:Availability of Linux Smart Phones (Score:1)
This is a bit like the N-Gage, where it's being laughed at in many English speaking countries, but it's still selling like hot cakes in Asia.
Two words: Customer Support (Score:3, Insightful)
KDE dropping Kandy for "The Sync" didn't help (Score:1)
I can only assume that KDE is waiting on the Linux guys to find some way to get the Motorola's to sync.
Re:KDE dropping Kandy for "The Sync" didn't help (Score:2)
Perhaps you are thinking of KitchenSync? In newer versions of KDE this is going to be back-ended by OpenSync [opensync.org] which is a universal syncing platform that can be used by all. OpenSync is perhaps a little rough around the edges at the moment but there is already support for quite a few mobile phones and PIM platforms (including those of KDE).
Motorola phones suck ? (Score:3, Informative)
I personally really do not care if my phone runs linux, and even if it did I would not waste the time to write some killer custom app just because I can
Besides: a phone's life span is soo short (unlike those old times) that for the time you develop something (as a hobbiist) someone comes out with a phone with 3 times bigger display, zoom lens camera and whatever else unneeded crap and you can start patching
I mean do you need linux on your phone ? Do you have a Motorola phone? Even that there are development tools for your phone, did you write a CE/Linux/Java/Midp/whatever app for it?
OK, I am negative today
It's because (Score:1)
Re:It's because (Score:2)
Re:It's because (Score:2)
V551 is a batter hog, I never used it to play mp3s other than the ringtones, and they tended to play fine. Mine kept crapping out on the charger port so finally the warranty department sent me a V3.
Great batter life, I charge it about every 5 days, sometimes six. Works well with all of my blue tooth headsets.
I did not want to like the V3 but mine has been a solid performer. The UI could use work, but the majority of the customers w
I call bullshit here. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Motorola SDK for their mobile phones is available right now, both the linux and non-linux varieties of phones.
This article is discussing, of course, the availability of the linux source code itself, not the SDK. You do not need the linux source code in order to develop applications for their linux-based mobile phones, and to be perfectly honest, having to jump through hoops to get the kernel source really isn't that big a deal, since getting the SDK is as simple as signing up at www.motocoders.com
ash
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:5, Informative)
Having experience with one of the Motorola phones myself, I belive the article describes the current situation very accurately. As the article explains: the public SDK is only for java development. The intresting thing with having a Linux phone is to develop native applications. There is no public SDK from Motorola for native applications. That is the problem.
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:2)
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:2)
First: this is simply not true. For example the E680i is at least missing both JSR75 (filesystem access) and JSR82 (bluetooth access) optional java apis.
Second: java applications don't have the look and feel of native apps. You can only have one java app running at any time and they don't integrate nicely into the UI.
T
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:1)
Nevertheless, if they distribute a version of it and refuse to distribute the source code, there is no limit to the amount of civil liability to which they are exposing themselves, being in breach of a contract which does not specify any limitation on the value of damages which can be sought.
This could become serious, if anyone on the plaintiff side of a GPL dispute is ever somebody who is not dependent on nickle and dime donations. Fortunately or unfortunately, no
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:2)
I did not say, or intend to insinuate, that motorola should not be releasing the source to the kernel they use in their phones. They should be adhering to the GPL, for legal reasons at least, if not to be good community citizens.
But for the average developer who wants to target more than just the cluster of motorola linux phones, the SDK that provides the java development environment for their phones will do the trick, and give them a wider user base.
What's
Re:I call bullshit here. (Score:2)
For people who have not understood this: the Motorola Linux phones are running a *complete* Linux distribution:
Linux phones that work in the US? (Score:2)
Re:Linux phones that work in the US? (Score:1)
A780, runs linux (not that i care as long as it WORKS), and some neat little gimmicks to boot:
builtin GPS with a navigation software that has a "pedestrian mode" (whatever that is, i guess its a mode where it directs you straight through regions where a car wouldn't be allowed)
comes with car mount + usb cable + 256mb flash chip loaded with the maps for your country
bluetooth (my bluetooth handsfree will love that)
Symbian SDK is *not* free! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Symbian SDK is *not* free! (Score:2, Informative)
That won't get you Symbian source, but it will give you the ability to write apps.
Re:Symbian SDK is *not* free! (Score:2)
There is a lot of room for improvement in SDKs (Score:2, Interesting)
The other one is shitty dev tools compared to some of the stuff you can do with other platforms. I'm a big fan of GCC and the l
A little bit of info (Score:5, Informative)
The Motorola Linux phones use a platform called EZX. This consists of a Neptune processor like in a normal p2k phone with a (presumably different) version of the p2k operating system running on it to handle the network side (i.e. actually talking to the cell tower) and then an Intel ARM chip running a modified version of MontaVista Linux for the rest of the phone software.
They are using a modified version of the BLOB bootloader and a 2.4.x Kernel.
The userland is made up of various normal utillities (e.g. glibc, gnu fileutils etc) plus a (aparently hevily modified) version of qtEmbedded and a pile of motorola specific stuff.
Motorola HAVE released a kernel source tree for the EZX phones. And people have reported getting it to compile and run on their phones. Whether its complete, up-to-date or accurate I dont know.
Motorola are under no obligation to provide any SDK for these phones.
The only thing they need to do is to release the source code for any components under licences that require them to do so (e.g. BLOB, kernel, glibc etc). So far, other than the kernel release, they have not done so.
Several requests have been sent to motorola requesting the source code to those comonents but so far, no code has been forthcomming.
Motorola are under no obligations to share the source code, SDKs, docs, headers etc to the motorola specific stuff on the phone (unless its some how derived from GPL code that is). They are also not under any obligation to share any code to things like qtEmbedded (they probobly have a commercial licence from trolltech for that).
There are reports of a "leaked" SDK for EZX phones but I dont know much about it (using it would probobly be a violation of copyright anyway so its probobly best not to)
The most promising work is going on at www.openezx.org. People there are trying to make replacements for the motorola propriatory kernel modules and software bits as well as trying to reverse engineer the propriatory libraries motorola have used as well as trying to get motorola to release the code required under GPL (having the motorola version of BLOB in particular would be nice since it could lead to a better way to modify things on the phone without some of the hacks that are required now)
Thanks to the OpenEZX project for most of the information contained here.
Motorola.. one step forward, two steps back... (Score:1)
Same as their Land Mobile Radio products (Score:2)
I recently built a new 911 PSAP and dispatch facility and there isn't much Motorola product in there. It's not because of the quality of equipment, it's great stuff. But if you want to do anything at all with it that would be "custom", they won't support you one bit.
IMHO Motorola makes great stuff, they just need to l
Symbian OS have similar problem (Score:2)
Don't worry, that is not the case any more. From the version 9.1 Symbian with introduction of Symbian Signed [symbiansigned.com] Symbiam is not encouraging small/freeware/opensource developers any more. For small commertial developer sitaution worst - they have to pay for every binary release (good buy patches/expansions) around 400USD to testing ho
Absolutely agree - give us an SDK, Motorola (Score:2)
Unlike some Siemens phones we had - it's very cool to be able to get a phone# prompt, and run all the usual commands.
Re:Second post (Score:1)
What happened, you typed it out, went for a soda, and came back to submit?
Daym.