Three Months of Britain's e-Petition System 183
eldavojohn writes "The idea seems simple. Provide feedback for your government via the internet. If enough people sign a petition, address it. That was the idea when an e-Petition site was launched in Nov 06 for Prime Minister Tony Blair. The BBC is reporting on the million or so petitions that the PM has received since the site went live. While most petitions are rejected or ignored, they have a top ten with one petition having 600,000 signers. Is this a valid way to provide feedback to the government or merely an exercise in keeping the populace happy?"
it's a homonym (Score:3, Funny)
Well, online wine delivery never really took off in the States, I hope the Brits have better luck.
Validity? (Score:5, Insightful)
The better question is whether the government will take the feedback seriously at all, or if this is like the proverbial comments box that feeds into the building's waste chute.
Re:Validity? (Score:4, Insightful)
It went ahead anyway.
Re:Validity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Blockquoth the AC:
That's true, but ignoring a couple of million protesters has effectively brought down Tony Blair and neutered the New Labour government. I can't think of a single high-profile, high-impact change they've got through since then.
The nastiest thing in the works is probably the whole ID cards and National Identity Register policy, for which the introductory legislation has already passed (though only after being rammed through with all the power the government could muster). I nevertheless predict with confidence that this will policy will die before it becomes mainstream, and the framework will be quietly "forgotten" by the next election. Over-hyped arguments about fighting terrorism and pleas to trust the government just ain't what they used to be, and I rather suspect that once the current political fad of believing the world is about to end because of environmental catastrophes has passed, I think privacy and personal freedom will be the Next Big Political Hot Potato.
On which note, it's interesting that by far the most-signed petition on the site objects to the introduction of vehicle tracking and road pricing measures. Many in government, including quite a few of my local councillors as well as the big central government players, seem to think this is inevitable. I rather suspect that it will be shot down on a similar basis to ID cards: it's a not-so-stealth tax, and it's a gross invasion of privacy. It's also overcomplicated when a much simpler alternative already exists via petrol tax, which could achieve much of the same end result. And of course, it's the answer to a problem that has only been created through a combination of poor government strategy and naive business management. The correct answers don't even seem to occur to them: not planning such that much of the population doesn't work locally; providing effective public transport alternatives rather than unreliable, overpriced, and generally less pleasant "services"; getting heavy freight off the roads and onto the alternative networks as much as possible; setting higher basic driving standards to reduce the number of incompetent/inconsiderate drivers who cause a disproportionate amount of congestion; providing serious facilities for cyclists rather than half-assed cycle lanes that do more harm than good, and encouraging employers to provide basics like secure cycle storage and showers at the office; management realising that flexible working hours as a minimum and often telecommuting are now both possible and indeed desirable arrangements for many workplaces; and so on, and so on.
Of course, whether any e-petitions like this will make the slightest difference to government policy remains to be seen. But if opposing a flawed and abusive policy to address the wrong underlying problem can get 600,000 names behind it within a couple of months, put me down as number 600,001; it's got to be worth a try, and even if the current government don't care, it could raise the profile of the issue come election time and get a commitment from other parties to oppose it.
Re:Validity? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying that anything you describe is good or bad. It is just that governments do things against the populous for reasons we don't like. A good case might be distribution of wealth. Some people might thinkit is a good idea to take all the money from the rich and spread it around to everyone equaly. And when you realize that means you would recieve several thousand dollars it might even be popular too. But we know that if anything like that happened, it would likley ruin the econemy, cause massive inflation and stop the incentives for anyone to make more then they currently are (if it gets taken and given away to someone who made less).
The points you brought out don't seem like anything I would like to happen here but i think we are on the same track. I guess the system might be a good way to let the government make a solid case for doing something that isn't popular and they will probably throw the dog abone every once in a while too. I think it is definatly a bad ordeal if your government takes an opinion poll before take a stance on something. Which might be the end run effect of this petition system were they see how many people are going to be pissed before doing something. This is something that got america in the shape it is in.
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Much of that is true, though I question what you think is best for a country if it's not what's best for everyone in that country.
However, in a democracy (or a republic, or...) the government has a duty to act as
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In order to manage traffic, prices would need to be algorithmically changed several times a day depending on how much road capacity exists in an area. Otherwise you will have large areas of road with excess capacity being held up by crowded bottlenecks.
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Looked at purely in economic terms, railways are a commercial nonsense and always have been. As far as I'm aware, there is no heavy rail system anywhere in th
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Except that roads don't. In fact, if you look at the amount of money raised by the government through direct methods of taxation on motorists (petrol tax, VED, etc.) and compare it to the amount of money spent on maintaining the roads and providing related services like road policing, you'll be lucky to find a year in which motorists get back a
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But then again
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There are thousands of people dying in Africa every day because of famine and disease, too, yet there is enough food in the world to feed everyone and most of the health problems they have are trivially cured by western medicine.
Just because something bad is happening, that doesn't mean we can't fix it. It just means that we (or our elected representatives, on
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Just because something bad is happening, that doesn't mean we can't fix it. It just means that we (or our elected representatives, on this scale) aren't fixing it, and that's a very different kind of problem.
Feeding them and giving them medicine is not going to "fix" the problem, it
Re:Validity? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's actually a good point and potentially worthwhile, but could this be achieved by other means because I REALLY don't want a tracking device in my car!
A short story: A friend was recently called by a bunch of blackmailers who threatened his family unless he paid them some money. He obviously called the police who whisked him and his family away to a safe house and stationed an armed response unit near his house for when he came back to recieve the next call (somewhat surprising his father-in-law!). They caught them, as it happens, but there is NO WAY IN HELL that he will allow his wife and kids to drive around in a vehicle that ANYONE could track, and therefore aid in the finding and kidnapping of his family. It just won't happen! And don't tell me that "only the authorities" will have access to the system because I've worked in IT for over 20 years and I just don't believe you!
Let alone the concept of the Gov being able to track you. I seriously don't swallow the "congestion" argument either as it must be incredibly expensive to throw this technology at the problem when a row of toll booths could do much the same, and increasing tax on petrol (move the Road Fund Licence - UK Only - onto petrol too!) will mean you pay more for a more thirsty car, or if you drive it more aggressively, or if you drive in rush hour. Not perhaps quite the granularity of satallite tracking, but way-way-way cheaper to setup!
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Good analogy. If medical trials were undertaken for a new drug and it was found that the Drs couldn't administer it correctly, do you think the powers that be would :-
a) Issue a licence for the drug anyway, because the Drs will get the hang of it eventually
b) Send it back to the drug companies until they can provide a simpler administration system
My guess is they'd send it ba
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If this does take off, and becomes the main way for the people to bring up complaints, it will give more voice to people who are tech savvy - not exactly the ideal in a democratic republic (or
Re:Validity? (Score:4, Insightful)
And why would you say that? I guess we would both agree that in our time it is, in some sense, better when people going to polls are literate (as in, able to actually read something about an issue) -- not that I would advocate taking the right to vote from illiterate people, that would be wrong.
The same slight bias towards "tech--" (and probably something else) -- savvy individuals might be healthy as well.
Paul B.
P.S. Yes, I do like the idea too!
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And when you start throwing political literature in the mix, you end up with someone who is informed voting for someone who doesn't actualy exist. In the end, not knowing a thing and knowing the wrong things will be about the same.
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If you can't read, both books and the guy explaining what's going on because you can't find out for yourself may lie to you.
Illiteracy = 1 unnecessary extra point of failure.
Hence, a literate population will, on average, be better informed and more correct in their judgements and decisions.
It's like saying "generally, the more you can find out the more likely you are to make the right decision.
This is so basic and self-evident I'm surprised
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No, I wasn't really trying to argue this, It is the oposite actualy. In an ideal world, that literacy would be more benificial but we don't have and ideal world.
It is as more like saying generally, the more you can find out the more likely you are to make the wrong decision based on misrepresentations and someone else's agenda. I essence, it would be a vote in the same manor of the uninformed person.
Some people only beleive th
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She attributes this fact to the topic we used to all talk about back in the 1990's - the "Digital Divide". People who play SL, are typically wealthy, upper-middle-class people, who can afford broadband connections, and a
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But more often, you got petitions like "cure world hunger" or some other broad/vague wording which has zero chance of being feasible... but what politician is going to come out against curing world hunger?
FTFA, it seems like the Brits have relatively specific petitions, which is a good thing. OTOH, how many successful petitions will ever advocate higher taxes or anything that will require sacrifice?
Re:Validity? (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of them are. Some which may be of interest to slashdotters include:
to make software patents clearly unenforcible [pm.gov.uk]
to Abandon plans to make it a criminal offence to possess "violent pornography" [pm.gov.uk]
to Abolish all faith schools and prohibit the teaching of creationism and other religious mythology in all UK schools [pm.gov.uk]
to levy a tax on energy inefficient light bulbs so that their long term financial and environmental cost is visible in their retail price [pm.gov.uk]
to force Ofcom [UK equivalent of FCC] to allocate the unused radio spectrum after the analogue switchover to HDTV services [pm.gov.uk]
to ensure that any website launched by the government complies with accessibility standards (WCAG AA at least) [pm.gov.uk]
to Improve Open Source use in govenment and local govenment work places [pm.gov.uk]
to Reject any motions to extend the copyright term for sound recordings [pm.gov.uk]
to award Professor Stephen W. Hawking a Knighthood [pm.gov.uk]
to Arrange for British Standard Time to be maintained in England permanently [pm.gov.uk]
and of course the petition for the prime mininster to stand on his head and juggle ice-cream [pm.gov.uk]. All feasible, most narrowly defined, or at least easy to investigate ways of achieving.
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Some of those are a little out of date. For example, after overwhelming feedback against the idea (you can read the submissions on the web site), the Gowers Review recommended against extending the copyright period on sound recordings, and the government has pretty much uniformly backed the Review's recommendations.
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Problem is that politicians (especially those who have been in office too long) may have a rather warped view of what "time wasting" means compared with the general public. e.g. not regarding being wined and dined by lobbiests as being a time wasting activity...
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not exactly the ideal in a democratic republic (or whatever Britain is).
For future reference we're considered a constitutional monarchy or a constitutional democratic monarchy along with the other Commonwealth countries who retain the Queen as head of state such as Australia and Canada. I believe that Japan, Spain and the Netherlands among others are also considered constitutional monarchies (basically any country that has a hereditary monarch as head of state, not necessarily a king or Queen Japan, for example has an Emperor, and Luxembourg has a reigning Grand Duke).
Not necessarily (Score:3, Interesting)
It really depends who the "one" is. If the mechanism for feedback is open to some but not to others, then it can actually decrease democracy. Lobbying can be criticized on these grounds, because it buys disproportionate influence for some. So can government consultations that exclude important groups.
In Canada, for example [thehilltimes.ca], the minister responsible for copyright reform is meeting frequently with CRIA (effectively the Canadian branc
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You'd first need to put together a representative sample. Also ommited is any representation of readers, viewers and listeners.
Of course historically publishers have always been the strongest lobbiests for making and changing copyright laws.
This is a bad Idea (Score:2, Interesting)
"When former Canadian Alliance leader Stockwell Day ran for Prime Minister of Canada, he proposed a mechanism to call for a referendum. A petition on any particular subject which gathered at least 350,000 signatures of voting age citizens ("3% of the electors") would automatically trigger a national referendum.
Mercer's "rant" asked viewers to log on to the 22 Minutes website, and sign an online petition asking the party leader to change his na
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"I've heard that the prime Minister gets two boxes full of shit sent to him every week...
What I want to know is who's sending the other one ?"
The short answer: (Score:2)
Since when is having a happy populace providing feedback to encourage positive change in our governments a bad thing?
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That's true, but it was banned the exact same way. Think about it for a second. Who is most likely to express an opinion, the people who dislike fox hunting (actually, mostly they disliked the fox hunters!), or the people who don't care one way or the other!
It's ALWAYS the minority group who makes the most noise who gets listened too. I, pe
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No it wasn't. Multiple opinion polls showed that the majority of Brits were in favour of a ban. That is how we find out what people think - professionally-done opinion polls, not petitions.
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I will concede that some polls [yougov.com] showed a lean towards banning the practice (the link shows a poll with 57% for banning fox hunting). As I mentioned above, I am generally against it, and if asked to chose between not banning it or banning it I would probably have to say ban it (with a shug!), but I guess the point I am making is that a small minority of people made sufficient noise that the question be asked in the first place.
Sure (Score:2)
Sure it is. Besides, if MPs or Congressmen accept emails but don't respond to them, wouldn't that also be a way of "merely keeping the populace happy"? The same could be said of letters or even face-to-face talks. Feedback, be it an e-petition or email, is only worth something if you listen to it...
Re:Sure (Score:5, Informative)
Interestingly enough, the same people [mysociety.org] who built this petition system for the government also created WriteToThem [writetothem.com] — write your message in a text box on the site, and they email/fax/post it to your MP. This has the advantage of them being able to spot when an MP is ignoring people and they've published league tables and other statistics [writetothem.com] about how responsive MPs are.
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Dear citizen,
We know where you live and who your family are so please stop asking damn fool questions, if you get my drift.
Kind Regards
Sec. State.
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If you want to be taken seriously in a democracy you first need to give up your anonominity. MP as our elective represantatives have a certain obligation to respond to members of their constituancies.
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2,400 Petitions, 1 Million SIGNATURES (Score:5, Informative)
-Ian
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Considering they don't even fix spelling mistakes in headlines (US Missle Interceptor Tests a Success [slashdot.org], I think that's safe bet. Taco has said he values the spontaneity and informality more than such anal concerns as being correct.
My experience (Score:5, Informative)
I signed a petition to add an exception to copyright law for personal use [pm.gov.uk] a month or two ago. A couple of weeks ago, I got an email from the system notifying me of the government's response [pm.gov.uk]:
Now obviously the petition didn't have a huge effect, but at least they are aware there is public demand for this, and it's helped me keep track of what they are actually doing about it.
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The road pricing petition is doing suspiciously well with 30x the signatures of the next most popular. That's over 1% of the population. Either someone has been marketing it well or there may be invalid signatures. You have to submit your address, but that's not hard to fake.
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I've seen it advertised in various weekly motoring magazines, and on breakfast news (on the BBC), so I guess it's possibly the marketing rather than nefarious means.
public opinion worthless (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank goodness that politicians DON'T have to cater to everyone!
Tagging a slashdot question... (Score:3, Funny)
I tag the story "yes", "no", and "maybe".
Just doing my part
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>
>I tag the story "yes", "no", and "maybe".
And I tag them:
How about a ballot instead? (Score:5, Interesting)
In many states people vote on everything from whether to build a dam to who's gonna be their sheriff and fire chief. In some places they even vote for judges. In the UK it seems the best they can ever do is a petition, which of course carries no real weight. When I lived in California I was amazed that people actually got to vote on medical marijuana. In the UK such a concept would be considered outrageous. I mean, a county in England, unlike a US state, couldn't even vote to extend pub opening hours. Tough decisions like that are always left to wise men in parliament.
While I think the idea of an e-petition is good, I'd much rather see some real democracy. I don't remember a referendum ever in the UK about anything.
Sorry for the off-topic rant, but it had to be said.
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Here's a few that spring to mind:
Okay, so we don't have referenda for trivial stuff like pub opening hours, but we have them for the really important stuff.
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Can no one really see a problem here?
Ballot initiatives aren't really a very good idea (Score:2)
Re:How about a ballot instead? (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with "real democracy" is that there are a lot of ignorant people.
For instance, Toowoomba in Queensland (QLD) which is under severe drought recently had a vote on whether to start using recycled water for drinking water, like most modern cities outside of Australia. The vote ended up being "no". The leader of the no campaign's main argument seemed to be that people will call the town "Poowoomba". The vote was held regardless of the fact that there was no other viable option anyway.
The "wise man in parliament", QLD premier Peter Beattie, has now basically said "tough luck. There is no choice. Water is going to be recycled."
The problem now is that will there be enough water in time.
I am in no way anti-democracy and will defend ignorant people having their say. However, sometimes my jaw literally drops at the ignorance of a lot of voters (and the administrators for that matter). Surely there has to be some kind of happy medium?
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Sure as hell are. Here in Western Australia we've had daylight saving (Summer Time) rejected 3 times by referendum. Objections included worries that daylight saving would fade people's curtains, turn cow's milk sour and increase the incidence of skin cancer.
Despite the "no" votes, WA is currently undergoing a "trial" of daylight saving. 2 weeks ago, when the stunning Comet McNaught was clearly visible on the southern horizon
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When we try and make something idiot proof all that happens is that natural selection defeats us again by providing us with a bigger idiot!
Never understimate the stupidity of people in large groups!
I've often thought that there should be some "qualifying questions" on
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Elect a group of representatives (at least ten, possibly more for larger cities, more than a hundred is likely overkill.) On all major decisions, first they vote. Then it's given to popular vote also. To overrule the representative vote, the popular vote must equal or exceed their threshold (perhaps minus some adjustment factor, so you can never require 100% of the popular vote). So, for example, there's a bill which is a really good idea, and 80
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Worst of all, they would have to stop their normal lives because people would keep canvassing and "educating" them on issues. Say hello to your new parliament.
However, your new parliament will not be able to pass anything which could raise taxes, since the population always agrees overwhelmingly on that.
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Won't disagree with much of what you've said but I feel I should point out the scale and population levels involved. Those English counties you mention are a wee bit smaller than their trans-atlantic counterparts. California has a population of nearly 35 million
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If your state can't muster more than 49% opposition to the governemt, then your votes will instead be turned around and cast as a vote FOR the party you were attempting to oppose!!! How's that for (American style) "democracy"?!
Give
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Democracy theater, that's all we have. Important issues are ALL left up to the "wise" ones in the senate.
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1337? Shouldn't that be "teh hu|\|Dr3D y3aRz \/\/aR" then?
Re:How about a breath of fresh air instead? (Score:5, Informative)
People who aren't from the UK often get confused by this. The Queen, for all practical purposes, has no political power. No monarch has entered the House of Commons in well over three centuries.
The last time they tried it was in 1642 — Charles I tried to arrest five MPs for treason, and the House of Commons told him to bugger off. Shortly afterwards he was defeated in civil war, and parliament created a court to put a monarch on trial for the first time in history — he ended up being executed.
These days, the monarch's representatives don't even enter the House of Commons unless they have permission from the Members of Parliament. They rarely even express any political opinions.
Lots of people read history books about how kings and queens used to be dictators, but that's exactly what it is — history. The monarchy is an anachronism; a leftover we use mainly as a tourist attraction. We don't "recall" them because there's no point, not because we can't.
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And I've no idea what you mean by "double dissolution" as a cause, perhaps you mean dissolution was the effect?
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You must have missunderstood the bit where I said "via the governer general". Perhaps I was unclear, or perhaps your comprehension sucks, either way I apologise if I gave the impression that the Queen was personally involved in the sacking.
Having said that, the Queen "did it", she just didn't know "she dun it" until after the fact a
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Populism != Democracy (Score:2)
Populism and democracy are just friends. They are not married. Actually, they are not even the same species. Although some have tried to mate them (Ross Perot is a recent example), it just almost never works. I think we had a populist president in the 1910-1920's in the US.
I voted for Ross Perot twice, even though I completely disagreed with him on NAFTA and a couple of other things. The guy talked and made sense, and his stuff stood up to scrutiny at the time. And heck, at his peek in June 2001, he was pol
The US is a socialist country (Score:2)
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The Presidents in this era:
Willliam Howard Taft, later Chief Justice, Republican.
Woodrow Wilson, Democrat.
Warren G. Harding, Republican.
The Populists can be seen at work in the important reforms of this era, the vote for women, the direct election of senators, and so on, but also in Reaction:
Prohibition. Restricted immigration, with rigid racial and ethnic quotas, the revival of the Klu Klux Klan.
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Very good. Thanks for the insight and answer to my sort of question.
Reminds me. I always have to laugh when I think of Nixon's legacy. Always demonized as an evil republican, but he ultimately acted as a populist. For god's sake - price controls on every day needs (bread, milk). Went to China. Ended a war (vietnam) started by a democrat, lowered the voting age to 18, started getting mid-evil on oil companies, etc. Also, look at how he handled Row v. Wade. Hard to argue that he was a Republican in any major
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how many understood the petition they signed (Score:3, Interesting)
I got an email that was trying to pass off a dated road tax experiment as about-to-be-implemented public policy - see my journal for my full response: http://yro.slashdot.org/~pbhj/journal/160052 [slashdot.org]
When I looked in to it I actually liked the sound of reduced council tax in favour of direct mileage taxation *instead* of vehicle based duty.
Unfortunately there was no "nosign" option. So 600k may have signed but what if 700k that looked at the petition didn't?
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That's what the experiment aimed to test. The issue is that there is widespread vehicle tax evasion. The idea (I think) was that all vehicle taxes (including those currently taken through petrol tax and congestion charges) would be rolled in to one. Also the premise of the experiment was that this is in a future in which nearly all cars have a satellite tracking system factory fitted (n
A great idea for initiatives/referendums? (Score:2)
Why would this succeed if electronic voting is so hard? Well, electronic voting is hard because you have to provide security and anonymity. Take out one requirement and it becomes easy. Since initiative and referendum petitions require your name, address, and signature, anonymity is no longer required. Even if security was compromised, the proposals would still have to be voted on in a proper election.
A system like this woul
I can't believe (Score:5, Funny)
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Two things:
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Ah... there's the rub.
Dr Graffin's "Web-surdities" (Score:3, Informative)
Here is the link to the article: http://badreligion.com/news/essays.php?id=8 [badreligion.com]. He has since become a Ph.D and a biology instructor at UCLA.
To quote from the first two paragraphs:
Obligatory Democrabus (Score:2)
So how long now until the House of Lords is turned into a bus to take democracy literally To The People?
"you're not the boss of me now" (Score:2)
A little bit of a tangent, but I gotta ask: am I the only one who thinks of the TV show Malcolm in the Middle when I see Slashdot stories tagged as "maybe, yes, no"? I always find myself singing "Can you repeeeeat the queeeestion?" when I see stores like this one.
And yes, this will probably be totally irrelevant to readers in the UK, who likely don't see episodes of that show (although I could be wrong).
This is modern Britain (Score:3)
Neither. It is a way of compiling a database of potential troublemakers.
The problem with a petition against ID cards... (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean really?
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I still think it's an awful idea, but that's in aggregate, not for individual people. Even if I'm likely to never be affected by it, thousands upon thousands will, and I'd be willing to put myself slightly more on the line in order to help protect them.
In some ways it's a pity I'm not in the UK, so I can't make my voice heard, but on the other hand . .
If I remember rightly..... (Score:2)
I suspect at the end of the petition period there's a shortcut on some government lackey's desktop marked "Send to Trashcan" that you can just drag and drop results you don't want onto.
Sorry if I sound a bit cynical but for all the b
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Big success for the government (Score:3, Interesting)
The last one I know of was a anti-drink driving campaign [bbc.co.uk] last December, where the parents of a teenager who'd been killed by a drunk delivered 16,000 signatures to No 10 calling for tighter drink-driving laws. The poor lad's picture was in all the papers the day after.
Since the introduction of this website, that's all stopped. These petitions garner nothing more than a short story buried in BBC News. Downing Street is over-joyed as it has cut off another source of embarrassment.
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Protests (Score:3, Insightful)
There is an anti-software-patent petition: sign! (Score:3)
If you are eligible ("a British citizen or resident"), sign the petition against software patents: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/softwarepatents/ [pm.gov.uk]
And pass it on to everyone you know. It only has 1,800 signatures right now and the deadline is Feb 20th. And if you want to learn more about software patents, try:
Million Moron March (Score:2)