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The Internet Government The Courts Your Rights Online News

Canadian ISPs Send Thousands of Copyright Notices 184

Posted by Zonk from the you-there-off-the-internets dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The CBC reports that Canadian Internet service providers are passing along thousands of copyright infringement notifications to their customers. These notices are coming, not from Canada, but from US copyright lobby groups such as the Business Software Alliance under a system called notice and notice. Michael Geist comments that unlike the U.S. takedown approach, the Canadian system is proving effective while protecting privacy and free speech. Downloaders take the hint, and alter their behavior before they receive a more serious letter in the mail."
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Canadian ISPs Send Thousands of Copyright Notices More

Canadian ISPs Send Thousands of Copyright Notices

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  • First, how do they avoid these messages being ... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ArsenneLupin ( 766289 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:29PM (#18027902)
    ... caught in the users' spamfilters?
    • I dunno but hopefully the subpoena will also be caught in the spam filter...and all the fines
    • I got one from Rogers for downloading a copy of Flight Sim X that I wanted to check out before buying. It was an email they got from the BSA. It had the specific IP, DNS name and torrent I was downloading from. Freaked the wife out but whatever. Normally my bittorrent behaviour is downloading tv shows i.e ones that Rogers PVR decided not to tape or to get widescreen version of shows that are displayed only in 4:3 like BSG but I wanted to see how Microsoft's new version fared.

      The result of my trial was that

  • Altering behavior... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rovingeyes ( 575063 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:30PM (#18027928)
    "Downloaders take the hint, and alter their behavior..."

    By altering behavior, if they mean using encryption, poxies, tor etc etc then it is a welcome change.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by shmlco ( 594907 )
      Have to wonder how this works in a "home" situation where the kid has download tons of crap in the basement and his parents get the notice. Bet there's some potential for "behavior alteration" there...

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by CABAN ( 818466 )
      I am Canadian. I received a notice from my ISP because my wife downloaded an MP3, something she rarely does because I subscribe to Napster.

      We altered our behavior by not doing it again. Piracy is theft.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by gobbo ( 567674 )

        I am Canadian. I received a notice from my ISP because my wife downloaded an MP3, something she rarely does because I subscribe to Napster. We altered our behavior by not doing it again. Piracy is theft.

        Well, if you're canadian, and you've paid for cassette tapes or blank CD's, then you've paid a levy that goes back to artists (in theory and law). You can download mp3's, it ISN'T piracy, it's just like borrowing a CD from a friend to copy a song--it's allowed, and you're paying for it. You cannot, howev

  • Media fees (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Joe The Dragon ( 967727 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:30PM (#18027938)
    So what are the fees that people pay for media for?

    • Re:Media fees (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Bin Naden ( 910327 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:33PM (#18028018)
      So what are the fees that people pay for media for?

      Protection money.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 )
      It's not a fee, it's a tax. It is to compensate those industries hurt by piracy, not to give you a license to pirate.

      Your logic goes as follows:

      "tax money goes to womens relief shelters, I pay taxes, therefore I have the right to beat and rape women."

      • Re:Media fees (Score:5, Informative)

        by m0rph3us0 ( 549631 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:49PM (#18028338)
        It's not a tax, it is a levy.

        Because you can't levy an illegal activity with out a conviction they had to make personal copying of music legal.

        The levy currently applies to recording media for audio. I believe it is something like 15 cents per tape , and 25 cents per "Audio CD". Normal blank CDs for "data" are not covered by this levy.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy# Canada [wikipedia.org]

        It's already gone to court and in Canada P2P is legal for music.

        The rest of the IP spectrum is still off limits.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by saskboy ( 600063 )
          What about Access Copyright [accesscopyright.ca]? Are there fees charged to places like libraries with a photocopier, an OK for people to photocopy books?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )
            Yes. Agreements of that type give library patrons a license to photocopy material, within the limits of the agreement.

            Ever ordered a paper from the library? They give you a photocopy....

            Having said that, the printed copyright agreements that libraries subscribe to are not government instituted levies, they're license agreements.

        • It's already gone to court and in Canada P2P is legal for music.

          The rest of the IP spectrum is still off limits.
          To complete the thought: That is why these notices are for games and software.

          I guess it doesn't matter whether the notices have any legal weight if they scare people into not downloading.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by inoyb ( 30257 )

          The levy currently applies to recording media for audio. I believe it is something like 15 cents per tape , and 25 cents per "Audio CD". Normal blank CDs for "data" are not covered by this levy.
          Normal CDs are covered. In fact it's mentioned in the link you included. They're 21 cents.

          It's already gone to court and in Canada P2P is legal for music.
          The court case concluded that it was legal to download. It is still considered illegal to upload.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by rikkards ( 98006 )
            It is legal to download Music but that's it. Software and Video is not.
            • It is legal to download Music but that's it. Software and Video is not.

              I wonder why there is a distinction. It's all data. It's downloaded the same way. It's burned the same way.

              Makes no sense to me, so I'll keep on time shifting my shows via the internet.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by it0 ( 567968 )
                In the netherlands it's okay to download music, video and books but not proprietary software.

                The difference is that music, video and books are seen as form of art and should reach as many people as possible but also should be available in years to come, that's the general idea.

                Uploading is ofcourse wrong in all cases.
                • ...music, video and books are seen as form of art...

                  That makes perfect sense. And I'm not just saying that because I'm of Dutch descent.

                  The situation does raise some questions in my mind, though. I do want to be fair and let the producers of a work profit from their work. After all, it does cost money to rent studio time, equipment, performers, etc. and that money has got to come from somewhere. I have heard that some TV shows do not show a profit during their initial run, but are designed to profi

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by rikkards ( 98006 )

                I wonder why there is a distinction. It's all data. It's downloaded the same way. It's burned the same way.

                Makes no sense to me, so I'll keep on time shifting my shows via the internet.


                I believe it was something lobbied by the CRIA (the equivalent to the RRIA in Canada). Their interest is purely for music.
          • Normal CDs are covered. In fact it's mentioned in the link you included. They're 21 cents.

            The GP is confused with the US levies which only apply to DAT and Audio-CDRs.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )
          All blank CDROMS, CDRWs are covered by the tarif.
          Blank regular CDs are levied 29 cents, Audio CDs are levied 77 cents per. See http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/news/c20032004fs-e.html [cb-cda.gc.ca] or your above linked Wikipedia page

      • It is to compensate those industries hurt by piracy, not to give you a license to pirate.

        What industries are those? The effect of piracy is minimal at best and positive in many cases.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by --daz-- ( 139799 )
        But the reality is more like this:

        Greedy Media Companies bilk consumers, consumers get angry and frustrated, turn to piracy to get the products they want, GMC's continue bilking, but now lobby Gov't for extra fees and taxes to recoup cost of piracy thus bilking consumers EVEN MORE and driving them to pirate more, etc, etc, etc...

        The GMC's have created an artificial problem because they have essentially monopolized content distribution and colluded to create a huge barrier to entry where a consumer's only ch
      • It's not a fee, it's a tax. It is to compensate those industries hurt by piracy, not to give you a license to pirate.

        In Canada, it's a fee. The Copyright Act is quite clear about this. You can read a very clear
        description of this on the Copyright Board of Canada's web site [cb-cda.gc.ca]. (I know it's hard to believe a bureaucracy like that would write clearly!)

        In particular, "The amendment to the Act legalized private copying of sound recordings of musical works onto audio recording media - i.e., the copying of pre-re
      • if/when piracy goes away, the 'hurt tax' will stay. This is why people pirate - against greater piracy. Its a ever-standing rule that self serving behaviour is met with self serving behaviour.
      • "tax money goes to womens relief shelters, I pay taxes, therefore I have the right to beat and rape women."

        Is there a Godwin's Law for wife-beating? Because there should be.

      • Your logic goes as follows: "tax money goes to womens relief shelters, I pay taxes, therefore I have the right to beat and rape women."

        Umm, no. Your analogy would be more appropriate if it was more like this:

        "The government put me in jail for a few years because I have a penis and therefor may have raped someone, therefore I have the right to rape someone."

        Then again, that's assuming piracy hurts sales and that the money from the blank media levy actually went to compensate industries hurt by piracy, n

  • Altered Behavior (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Apocalypse111 ( 597674 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:34PM (#18028022) Journal
    Alter their behavior? Like installing Peer Guardian? [phoenixlabs.org] Or maybe a Tor client? [eff.org] Or perhaps just opening up a WAP?

    What do these US lobby groups (note: not law enforcement agencies) think they can do against Canadian citizens?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by phalkon30 ( 1063460 )
      I see many people recommending Peer Guradian, but I question its usefulness. From past experience, it blocked many sites that I found useful, and tended not to block a whole lot else. Because it relies on user submited IP's. From their website: "How safe is PeerGuardian, really? Well, it is accurate in the sense that it blocks everything on your blocklist. It is impossible to know _all_ the addresses to block so while it will increase your safety to a good extent, it can never be perfect." IMO its like s

    • Re:Altered Behavior (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:42PM (#18028198) Journal
      Exact same thing they can do to American citizens. They could take you to court.

      This "US lobby group" shit is slashdot spin to whip you into an anti-US frenzy. Arrr how dare bush interfere!

      The BSA is an international group, and the BSA certainly had a presence in Canada when I lived there.
      • Except that, at the moment, people downloading music in Canada aren't breaking the law. This message is little more than empty harassment. It doesn't matter what kind of organization they are, they simply have no legal leg to stand on, so they can go piss off.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by rtb61 ( 674572 )
        Oh blah. The BSA is M$ and a whole bunch of other companies that M$ invited 'er' coerced into joining. The principles of the BSA are straight out of the M$ US headquarters, not that US major corporations are uniquely evil, as major corporations from all over the globe tend to be as bad as each other. It is just the US corporation have excessive control over the US government, which those US corporations then use to coerce other countries, so yeah, it really pisses people off from other countries where corpo
    • For one thing they can back the people who will do what they want. Money = votes, sadly. People are often swayed by twisted words or a charismatic figure. People are far to wrapped up in their daily lives to understand what qualifications the person on the ballot should have, so they go buy the ads. The enlightened ones look to third parties, but often those too are paid for by a party interest in the outcome of the election.

      Seems the me only the candidates know their own motivations. But, to me, lobbying s

    • What do these US lobby groups (note: not law enforcement agencies) think they can do against Canadian citizens?

      They believe that they will be able to pay US lawmakers to pass a law which puts Canada into the same category as "all them other pirate sponsoring nations", and then force our government to change our laws.

      This is the exact same way the US has been exporting all of their copyright/IP laws abroad. They force their trading partners to adopt their laws, or else.

      Sadly, since US lawmakers have been sw

    • Thats a very good question I am curiose as to what the american lobbiests can do against Canadians? Are there even laws in Canada that will allow american companies to charge Canadians for downloading the material? How can they prove that they stole the material? Will simular laws that work for music material on the net work the same way? If your not distributing are you still doing something illegal? If not would the change in practice to stop using P2P and start using things like usenet and ftps agai

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rikkards ( 98006 )
      I doubt Peer Guardian blocks you from the peer list in a torrent. Which is probably where they are getting most of their IP addresses. Opening up your WAP would just get you disconnected. Usually in the TOS for most of the Canadian ISP is that you won't be sharing your connection. Reading the email they sent, it didn't say anything about repercussions from the BSA but that you are risking getting disconnected due to breach of TOS. Which they can legally do.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by antdude ( 79039 )
      I thought PeerGuardian doesn't work well. I know TOR would work better.

  • There Are More Important Things To Do (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Canada could instead be more concerned about things that really affect people. Perhaps they could send troops to a place where terrorists have trained, election fraud has been widely believed to have happened, and attacks of mass destruction area fairly frequent. And while the mounties are in Florida, they may not be able to do much about the hurricanes, but they can enjoy some orange juice and sunshine!

    Dudley Do-Right for President!

  • So much for the canadian slashdotter's stance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fotbr ( 855184 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:36PM (#18028080) Journal
    You know, the one where its legal to share files because they pay taxes.

    Then again, I also can't think of any country's borders the **AA actually respects. So welcome to the club.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )
      Getting a letter from a lobby group doesn't have the slightest effect on whether or not it's legal for us Canadians to copy music for our private use. It's still legal. So if you're in Canada and you get a letter telling you to stop downloading music, you can safely round file it and have a good laugh at the realization that the music industry wasted money paying someone to track you down, and maybe buy a stamp or too as well.

      Now, if it's something other than music, it might be a good idea to stop. Or at

    • You know, the one where its legal to share files because they pay taxes.

      The law isn't carte-blanche to download software and movies, nor is it legal to distribute copyrighted material.

  • Downloaders take the hint, and alter their behavior before they receive a more serious letter in the mail."

    When I read that part I fell out of my chair and spewd my afternoon tea through my nose. That Micheal Geist and the BSA are some kinda crazy funny, ain't they?

    • Michael Geist [michaelgeist.ca] is Canada's version of Lawrence Lessig.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by urbanriot ( 924981 )
      This might seem crazy or funny to you, but it's completely true. This tactic is to scare the casual downloader and it works. I've had numerous friends receive these letters in the past and they'd completely altered their download patterns ranging from installing RIAA/MPAA/BSA filtering software (such as Peerguardian) all the way up to stopping completely and removing all pirate software from their computer. Maybe to the more enlightened user this might sound crazy, or perhaps to those that haven't received
      • I received one of those letters, from the ESA, and I admit that it scared me a bit. It worked in the sense that it altered my downloading habits, I haven't downloaded a pirated game since then, though I still download mp3s and movies. I'm a bit upset that I fell for their scare tactic, but really, I can't afford to be brought to court over some shitty Neverwinter Nights 2 game that I downloaded. For me it's not worth the risk of getting caught, I can't afford it.

        I doubt my ISP would cut me off though, I'm o

    • obSimpsons (Score:4, Funny)

      by Rob T Firefly ( 844560 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @04:05PM (#18029678) Homepage Journal
      Is that the Apu school of threats? "Hey! I have asked you nicely not to mangle my merchandise. You leave me no choice but to... ask you nicely again."

  • Ha Ha Ha.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bullfish ( 858648 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @02:46PM (#18028270)
    Come and get me RIAA! Sixty miles from town on highway, 25 miles via dirt road, 10 miles via dog sled, and 6 by snowshoe... fourth igloo on the left with the green satellite dish... oh, and windchill is -45 today, very balmy

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by corychristison ( 951993 )
      If only we (Canadians) actually lived in igloo's, eh? The part about the weather is true though. Just sometime last week it was -45 in my area. Today it's -10 or so... Shorts and T-shirt weather for Canadians. :-)

      Judging from your post, I don't think you are Canadian. We use the metric system for large distances. But props on your post anyway! Was a good laugh when I needed it.

      • Re:Ha Ha Ha.... (Score:4, Funny)

        by Bullfish ( 858648 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @03:39PM (#18029192)
        Translating for our American friends... I am as Canadian as Don Cherry, large bottles of Brador, flannel shirts, screech and Tim Horton's... I cried when the Victoriaville stick company burned down eh...

        Let them come visit up here in Lake Malaki Ontario north of Kenora... if they come in the summer, they will need a canoe to do the portages and a Deet heavy repellent

        Do you think I should tell them we are like... a whole separate country eh? Like the Dog the Bounty Hunter who came up here to find his profession was illegal, could be a culture shock eh...
        • Shit, is THAT why you never see Victoriaville sticks anymore?

          I just figured they got outsourced to India or something.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )
      Ah, and they don't plow the road either. Hope you know how to drive in snow!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by aclarke ( 307017 )
        I WISH they didn't plough the road here (southern Ontario). I just drove into a ditch this afternoon trying to avoid the snow plough. There's irony; being sent into the ditch by the very vehicle supposedly going around trying to keep us out.

        Yeah, this is totally off-topic, so I'll bring it back on. I haven't received any threatening emails from the toothless tiger, despite having used a P2P client or three.
  • that canadian citizens, especially considering the current world climate and opinion of the united states, are more dutifully disposed to obey american business interests than american citizens?

    any canadian here want to eviscerate this patronizing and condescending depiction of canadians as the ultimate pantywaists for me?
    • It's like the joke:

      There's a swimming pool with about 100 people in it. 30 are Canadians. How do you get the Canadians out?

      Just shout, "Can all the Canadians get out of the pool?"

      Seriously, it's legal to download in Canada. (Uploading is not.) The letters mean nothing. It's just a warning to use a better proxy.

      Remember, if you want it to stay legal, write to the Heritage Critic and let him know that the Heritage Minister is being bribed by the CCPA.
    • "any canadian here want to eviscerate this patronizing and condescending depiction of canadians as the ultimate pantywaists for me?"

      Your perceptions aren't our concern. (Is that punctuation I see, CTS?) ;)

      You may take some of our attitudes and opinions as condecending amd patronizing - and they may well come out that way, but we really do have good intentions.

      "are more dutifully disposed to obey american business interests than american citizens?"

      We see the CD levy for what it is - a right to copy audio mu

  • My letters from the ESA (Score:5, Interesting)

    by My Iron Lung ( 834019 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @03:02PM (#18028576)
    I've gotten two letters from the ESA in the last 6 months like this.. I don't think they hold a lot of water, they were sent to my ISP who forwarded them to me. My ISP was awfully nice, they offered a link to their site showing how to disable uploads on many popular P2P file sharing apps (made me laugh), covering damn near everything except BitTorrent. Now the first time they caught me was OK, I was downloading software I shouldn't have been, it scared me straight for about 15 minutes till I give it some serious consideration. The second one just made me laugh, it was for downloading an ISO of Starcraft (no cracks or anything, just the ISO), which I do have a legit copy and serial for but left my original copy at work.. Anyways, I'm rambling, but my only real point here is that the only one you should be afraid of is your ISP in cases like this. The ESA/RIAA/MPAA, whatever, holds little to no jurisdiction here in Canada (afaik noone in Canada has ever been convicted along these lines, please enlighten me if you've heard otherwise), but your ISP can easily give you the boot for violating their own terms of service.
  • .... as it seems to balance privacy (the ISP's don't share personal info, or at least that's what they say) with the MAFIAA's need to stamp out piracy. And it's not as if the ISP's don't get a benefit from this as well as (insert your file sharing client here) traffic drops and users don't get slowdowns as soon as the kiddies come home from school since they're not sucking up all of the bandwidth in a network segment downloading MP3's and pron.
  • I'm not going to get into the topic of sending notices via ISPs... one thing from that news article that caught my eye, was the mention of NBC/Universal sending a notice, because they felt someone was downloading a TV show episode.

    Well, on NBC.com most/all (I haven't checked every show) offers you to watch the entire episode the very next day of airing, for free.

    But not for Canadians (and I assume anyone outside of the US). Instead, we get "We're sorry, but the clip you selected isn't available from your
  • Email? Woof, the wife won't see that one, relief... I don't even use the crappy email accounts of Crogers or Chimpatico. Perhaps they should include a suspected illegal activity rating/score on the monthly bill - the wife *would* notice *that*. They could base it on funny-port-use ratio or something. They could take the number of gigabytes uploaded/downloaded through ports they think are not used for "legitimate use", and translate it through a formula and provide a "whole-some" rating. 0 'd be 0% chan
  • Why don't you also vote to put the copyright expiration back to 20 years? If you got Earl, Ted and Irving to vote with you you'd have plenty of votes to override that dick, Scott.

  • We're way to nice (Score:4, Funny)

    by CiRu5 ( 859713 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @05:05PM (#18030718) Homepage
    "unlike the U.S. takedown approach, the Canadian system is proving effective while protecting privacy and free speech. Downloaders take the hint, and alter their behavior before they receive a more serious letter in the mail."

    RIAA: Don't download that

    Us: Ok, sorry

    Man up fellow Canadians :)

  • Service terminated due to false accusation? (Score:3)

    by necro2607 ( 771790 ) on Thursday February 15, 2007 @05:40PM (#18031306)
    I received a report just like this article refers to, from my ISP. The thing is, the infringment report indicated that I was sharing a foreign-language version of a Hollywood movie, which I absolutely 100% had never done. They had the correct software I had been using (for downloading files OTHER THAN movies), correct IP and filesharing-network-user-ID, but I have NEVER downloaded the movie that I was being "reported" for, nor have I ever shared it or anything even resembling it (or any other movies, actually).

    So, my question is, what would happen if my ISP disconnected me because of this? There are really only two main ISPs around here, and the other one is definitely not desireable. Because some automated bot made up a completely false "infringement" report, I could lose net connectivity? Am I no longer allowed to use p2p software even if what I'm downloading is legally OK to download?

    "If you are not aware of our Acceptable Use Policy, which strictly prohibits use of our Service to infringe the copyrights of others, you may review at mytelus.com/internet. Please be aware that violation of this policy could result in disconnection of your Service"

    What about alleged and unsubstantiated violation of this policy? What about when a bot sends mostly-correct infringement notices, but there was NO actual copyright infringement occuring? How can the ISP know whether anything illegal actually occured?

    Just because they know my IP, username and user ID and then add the name of a hollywood movie with a .AVI at the end, doesn't mean there's ANY truth to the report. This really really bothers me, because I pay for high speed access and have been a customer of this company for years, but could magically have my services cut off permanently with them because of incorrect, falsified and effectively fabricated copyright infringement notices!
  • This has been happening for a long time now. A year ago, I got a message from Telus stating that I had violated copyright by downloading an episode of Battlestar Galactica that came on TV here anyway, but I'd missed it - the message had my IP address, the torrent tracker I was on, the time I was spotted there, and the name of the file I was downloading, but of course, not who it was that complained about it.

    The sad thing is that I don't even know if the complainant had any jurisdiction to stop me from downl

  • This strikes me as odd (Score:2, Interesting)

    by thewils ( 463314 )
    So will Rogers, for example, be sending letters to themselves for stuff that's hosted on their own Usenet servers?
  • ...to download music and movies... The courts have settled on the matter long ago and if you pay the levy on digital media, you have paid for everything you download.

    Yes, it's really that simple.

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