Dumping ISP May Cost Customers $150 268
Dumpling$9 writes with a link to an article that seems to speak volumes about the modern consumer relationship with service providers. IBT reports on the outrageous fees facing users who drop their internet service contracts before they are up. "Pricing broadband competition can be difficult. Broadband is rarely priced as a stand-alone service. Whether offered by a telephone company or a cable company, it is usually bundled with other services such as voice and video. The advantage to the customer is easier billing and usually a price break. But the down side is if they drop one of the services to pursue a better deal elsewhere, they lose the discount ... It remains to be seen whether penalties for Internet customers will cut down on churn. Consumers Union in its annual cell phone survey found that nearly half of all cell phone subscribers who were considering switching carriers were deterred from doing so because of early termination penalties."
Yeah...sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
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It all comes down to this: no matter what, you must pay. There is no getting around it. You must pay. You must pay to save money (account fees). You must pay to spend money (transaction fees). You must pay for almost everything you do. If you can find something you do that you aren't currently paying for in some way, then you are lucky.
damn. I need to get some more caffeine. or change my playlist here.
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That's the idea behind currency. Everything you recieve someone had to work for. If you want to get anything other people want something in return. Currency allows us to trade our time and labor through a standard way. If you have something you are not paying for it is indeed lucky but also remember nobody is GETTING payed for that. Air is pretty much the only thing that takes food off somebodies table when you get for free.
With all that said, I a
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That's the idea behind currency.
of course.
fork over money ... it just makes someone wealthier.
hope you don't mind the editing. I think its still true to your point. This is the issue. I'm all for mark-up, added-value etc (I own a small business and do exactly this every day). Its the gratuitous fees for no other reason than pumping up someone's bottom line that I have a problem with.
:( ), pay online for no charge, or pay using t
Here's a classic example. I was talking to a creditor the other day about the most expeditious method of paying them. My choices were to pay by mail (and be late
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Re:Yeah...sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
Rather, they know that the people most likely to need the phone service are poor people without computers who have few other options. These people are more likely to be living hand-to-mouth and not have the money to make a payment until close to when their bill is due. These are the easiest people to screw over while they're down... either pay $15 to post an on-time payment, or send it by mail and pay a $30 late fee (oh yeah, and your new 39.9% interest rate).
They don't charge $15 to recoup fees. They do it because it will extract the most money possible from people who have the fewest options.
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This creditor is most likely a credit card company and I hardly doubt they want to discourage people from using the phone system.
exactly right. luckily for me I wasn't in a position where I was forced to pay the $15 or the $30 plus more interest. I've been there. That sucks.
And I think you are right, that was why I originally emphasised the "automated" aspect of the telephone payment system. They are not incurring any additional costs by accepting the telephone payment. In fact they are probably saving money as it means they can free up a call-center employee for the next call instead of keeping them on the line to take the payment
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Those are not gratuitous fees, those are marketing tools.
[WHAT??]
Yes...marketing tools. It allows them to lower the 'advertised price', and still earn the same profits.
$100/month looks better than $120/month. But they don't tell you up front about that extra $20 in fees.
I'm not saying they should earn less profit. That's another argument. But if they can snag you in at $100/month, and still
Re:Yeah...sucks (Score:4, Interesting)
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Sound reasonable except that the connection doesn't actually cost them anything (it was an existing phone line that I had used with broadband before - I checked with my phone company when I dumped their broadband and was told that if I was getting a different supplier they would simply move the l
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So, pretty much a lot of the major inventions of the modern era. I'd say you're getting a lot more for free now than you could [insert any number] of years ago.
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regardless, your examples are not all that great, excepting wikipedia.
Slashdot requires me to pay in some fashion -- either through viewing the ads or taking the time
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Step 1: Blame customer for violating hidden "unlimited broadband" cap
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Collect $150 and profit
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Step 2: Read the fine print.
Step 3: Run!
(Opt. Step 4: Realize there's a broadband monopoly or that only one company's interested in serving your area. Slink back. Take it.)
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Summer break? (Score:2)
What I want to know is, if you plan on switching companies in the near future, then why are you signing up in the first place?
A lot of people live at one address nine months out of the year (September through May) and another address during the summer (June through August). If the same mobile phone provider doesn't serve both areas, what should the customer do? Even for people other than students, how can the customer know, before he signs the contract, which features of the phone the network operator has shut off?
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Unless you are not told of a contract when you sign up for service [slashdot.org] and your "acceptance" of one is allegedly implied by your not cancelling your service within 25 days.
I would *never* have actually signed a contract with an ISP, because the lack of flexibility isn't worth the savings IMO.
This is *news?* (Score:5, Insightful)
The business is very competitive, and there are lots of incentives to switch carriers. If you're not renegotiating with your cellular and broadband carriers when the contract comes close to ending, you're unwise.
I don't excuse the size of the fees, but they will be disclosed if you ask the terms of the agreement. Don't want to pay a fee? Don't sign up, or don't break the agreement.
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In my area, if you want broadband there is one option: Comcast.
What a choice.
Re:This is *news?* (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Comcast
Say you want land-line phone service? Your choices are:
1) Qwest
Say you want natural gas? Your choices are:
1) Center-point
Want electricity? Oh, gobs of choices here:
1) Xcel
Is this legal? Perfectly! Does it create competition? Not in any possible way. Does it always screw the customer, every time? Naturally. The US has essentially decided that as long as your monopoly only covers a county or two, it's not a monopoly. Because of course, no one's forcing me to live here. But if I choose to? My utility companies are forced on me.
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If you want cable... do you mean cable television? Because you can most likely get satellite TV from one of several different providers. DirecTV is only one of them.
If you want cable internet... do you mean broadband internet access? Maybe your telephone company doesn't offer DSL, but you do have other options for broadband... one of which is Wildblue (wildblue.com) satellite internet. Yes, it is satellite up and down (no telephone line required) an
You're right. (Score:2)
Re:This is *news?* (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know about your country, but here in the US, there is very little competition for broadband. (Cellular is another story.) Most people have only two realistic options: cable or DSL, each from its respective monopoly. With each one, there's usually some discount for bundling, though the usefulness of bundling DSL is debatable since so many people have abandoned landlines in the past decade.
So if you get sick of your cable internet, your only option is probably DSL from your local phone monopoly. Here in the southwest, that means Qwest, with MSN as your ISP (yuk). It is possible to get a different ISP, but that'll cost you more money, probably more than your service with cable internet was. The way I see it, DSP is only useful if 1) you're really cheap, and are willing to put up with 256k and MSN just to save $10/month, or 2) you want to run your own server(s) at home and are willing to pay extra for that privelege (this is what those higher-price DSL ISPs have over everything else). For everyone else, there's cable.
Anyway, two or three choices isn't what I'd call "very competitive".
And I've never seen any option for "renegotiating" with any of these options. They're all flat-rate, and cost the same for everyone. It's not like cellular with all the wacky service plans, pricing schemes, and promotions.
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Speakeasy is about to go to hell in a handbasket (Score:2)
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I actually tried Qwest/MSN back in 2002/3, despite my anti-MS bias. What a mistake. I had so many problems with that service actually working, plus a
DSL in the US (Score:2)
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As for DSL, don't you just have one telco, and then 5 different DSL ISP options? That's the way it is here. But as I pointed out before, that's not much of a choice. Here, there's one ISP (MSN) which is the "preferred" ISP; you only get a reasonable price if you use MSN. If you select a different ISP, Qwest won't give them the same rates as they give MSN, so your price ends up
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In the modern world, most companies are competing to gain shareholders, not customers. Customers are merely a means to an end.
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Actually, with ISP's with self install kits you sign nothing, but the contract is implied.
I worked for a rather major ISP once that did self install DSL kits (and they weren't the actually lin owners... like Bell South, Covad, and SBC... of course any of my former coworkers... all several hundred of you that were laid off... already know who i am talking about)
Re:This is *news?* (Score:5, Informative)
Forget the lawyers. Call your credit card issuer.
I paid for a year's DSL in advance (at a discount) from a local DSL provider that had a good reputation. They even agreed to a refund if I left before the year was up. But shortly thereafter, they were bought by another ISP that had a well-deserved bad reputation.
A few months later, my DSL went down for a week -- the second or third outage since the acquisition, but the longest one so far. It was some sort of administrative screwup that cut off the ISP's link to the rest of the 'Net. I had already planned to change providers when my year's pre-paid service was up. But, the long outage was enough to accelerate my switch.
Fortunately, I had a second phone line at the time. So, I didn't have to wait for them to release their claim on my primary line. For a brief time, I actually had DSL from two different ISP's on the two different lines. But, when I called to cancel my service and request a refund, they replied: "no refunds". I pointed out my agreement with the ISP they bought, and they were unmoved. I offered them one last chance, saying that I would get my refund -- the only issue was whether they got dinged by their credit card processor for a charge-back.
They still refused, so I called American Express -- who I used to pay the original bill. I explained the situation to Amex, and their only question was: "did you sign anything that committed you to pay for a year of service?" I said "no" -- knowing they would pose the same question to the ISP. I also knew that the ISP couldn't produce any such agreement.
Within a week, American Express credited my account for an amount that was pro-rated according to the remaining (unused) months of service.
My point: if you can, pay your ISP with a credit card. It gives you a lot more leverage, because they are bound by the merchant agreement.
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My local landline monopoly/DSL ISP is ahead of that game. They'll have none of that "[X] I agree to the TOS and AUP" web form nonsense.
Their Self-install kit included my hardware (modem, filters, cables), a cheat sheet with the particulars of the account (IP, gateway, DNS, POP3, etc.), a sheet with the TOS and AUP, and a self-addressed stamped envelope. I had to return the top sheet of the TOS/AUP (retain the yellow copy for your records), signed and dated, within 30 days, or else my account would be susp
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You'd think that in such a climate, they'd work harder to attract new clients and retain old ones instead of scaring / hosing existing clients into staying with them to the bitter end. This is customer retension through bullying, not through good service. Welcome to the free market, where you're f
Locally Owned ISPs (Score:2, Interesting)
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Seriously, I can't get anything faster without going to a national company.
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This is stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuck this. Just a further attempt to fuck the consumer over.
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Fuck this. Just a further attempt to fuck the consumer over.
my comments [slashdot.org] really belong in this thread.
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You do have a choice about whether or not you are going to enter into a multi-month contract with the provider to receive a reduced rate for the services they provide. You aren't required, by any means, to ac
Watch out for Roadrunner/free AOL (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of people have been bitten by this.
Nothing to do with "Your rights online" (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't sign up for a contract you might want to break out of.
If you do sign up, then don't bitch about your own stupidity.
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And what's your brilliant solution when you have to choose between signing up for a contract and not having service?
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You know (Score:2)
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At a minimum, early termination fees should be prorated.
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WTF, man? It's about ISP contracts! How could this be any more about your rights online, unless you're taking that completely literally?
I don't regard contracts between two unequal parties quite the same as I would a contract between two individuals. If one can find a way to get out of paying this sneak-wrapped exit charges, one should. You're just maximizing return for your shareholder -- you. And don't worry, Baby Jesus doesn't really kill a kitten if you dro
Not quite the same (Score:2)
Bah. (Score:5, Informative)
When we moved to a new place, the first thing I did was run cable to my office. Not because I want to watch TV there, but because the first time the phone company pisses me off, I dump 'em.
I think they're scared of me...Last time my service went down (morons from the phone company screwed up my settings working on a neighbors equipment), they told me three days. I told them if it wasn't done before I got home from work the next day, I was calling the cable company...It was done when I went home for lunch.
These days, if you have more than one option, make the most of it...Treat them like the bitches they are, and make them grovel for your money.
Re:Bah. (Score:4, Informative)
What are ypu going to do when everyone you just dicked around are the only options?
"John Smith of 321 road? Nah, he's a trouble maker" x a couple of times = you screwed.
What's the problem here? (Score:3, Insightful)
It stinks that we can't get it for free, but that's the way it works.
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The modem? well, no I can get my own.
The wires? no, that's already in place and paid for.
The hardware system? nope leased out or bought, so no need for subsidizing there.
hmm,,, Mayge we are subsidizing the chairs they sit on?
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The modem? well, no I can get my own.
Many of the intro rate contract plans include the DSL modem.
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When it comes to cell phone service however, I disagree, I have not owned a subsidized phone in years, my last 6 phones, all after market unlocked, 3 of them well over $600 each. I still have to pay $170 to cancel my service. Thats not recouping costs, thats blackmailing the consumer. Sure I signed the agreement, what choice did I have, they all have the same agreement, stay with
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I've known people that bought all their equipment -- cable modem or DSL modem and line filters -- and still got hit with the "early termination" fee. It's not about the equipment.
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Yes, I am one of those people. And Speakeasy's ridiculous $300 termination fee is about three times the price of the modem that I bought from them.
Why do we do these things? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Hey! Why don't you read the fine print."
"Gimp! Research your damn options and pay the extra $60/month for a contract-free options."
"GUH! I have no patience for stupid consumers."
But, seriously folks, why are these things okay?
Why is small, difficult-to-read fine print okay?
Why can't features be in fine print gotchas be in large print?
Why is it that a company can advertise something as true that others can show to be false?
Why can a company call themselves "perfect" when it's not?
Why is it okay that a company obfuscates things from their potential consumers?
But, I know, I'm stupid because I didn't understand the legalese. I'm an ass because I didn't pay the extra fee for the contract-free option. I'm stupid because I didn't pay the extra $60/month.
Of course, I'm stupid until one of these little things hits the one that accuses me. Then they're like, "HeeeeeY! WTF, yo?"
As though...
m
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Because consumers tolerate it, and the government doesn't regulate it.
Ideally, in pure capitalism, consumers would either be savvy enough to see through these 'deceptions', or
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Indeed, that's the ideal situation. In practice, this becomes impossible and there is a strong need for governmental regulation. If, e.g. I want to choose an ISP, there are the following (possible) variables to consider:
* mail service
* mail scanning (free, not free)
* helpdesk
* news service
* bi
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Because text size doesn't matter. Anyone who signs a contract without actually reading all of it (and *especially* the "fine print") has only themselves to blame. And I'm not talking about people who sign contracts written in legalese and who are thus confused about the true conditions set forth therein - I'm talking about people who argue "it's difficult to read, so I didn't read it at all, a
Can your landlord sue you if you move out early? (Score:2)
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Ever heard the expression "blood from a stone"?
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use file-sharing against them (Score:5, Insightful)
download a lot of non-copyrighted material (you don't want to get in trouble) off of a file-sharing network. they will get rid of you and you won't be responsible for the disconnect charge.
easy.
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Generally speaking, it's an interesting idea, though, if a rather Dilbert-esque one (there actually is an old Dilbert strip where Wally tries to get
Earthlink & FiOS (Score:2)
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They are BREAKING TERMS OF SERVICE by not providing... SERVICE.
The next time they do stupid shit, log a bunch of calls, while recording them (give a disclaimer when they do). Then when they "bill" you, sue them for fraud.
People just dont get when SERVICE is not given, TERMS OF SERVICE dont apply.
Can't you read? (Score:3, Insightful)
Every contract I have ever had with a cell phone provider or internet provider or cable provider had a set expected length of contract AND a set date when that contract would be terminated. I may be mis-remembering, but I'm pretty sure NONE of them have been over two years. In EACH case there was some sort of incentive to get a lower price and some sort of incentive to switch carriers. Many times the switch incentive is enough to pay for the termination fees, if any.
It seems to me that if you sign a contract with a company for a couple of years, you were paid to do it with a lower price. If you want to cut and run, you pay and should. This is not anti-consumer, this is stupid-consumer who didn't read the contract and now wants to bail ahead of time.
It's the same with 'bundled' services. They are always trying to get you to 'bundle' everything with one carrier. You take them up on it at your peril. If you never bundle services you keep your versatility intact. yeah, it may cost you more, but are you sheep and go ga ga eyed every time they offer you ten bucks?
Don't get me wrong. My Starband sucked so bad I dumped it the month my contract was up. My Dish Network was so bad and the customer service so God-awful I fired them on the spot and threw the dishes in the dump. But I'll tell ya, my DSL is so reliable and fast that it's worth my while to sign a contract. Absolutely no problems.
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I have stood next to people trying to get their CDMA phone accepted for use with a PCS carrier and the "customer" had no clue what was going on. To them a phone is a phone is a ph
What cable companies are these? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, is this a DSL FUD campaign?
I work for a support outsourcing company. I've worked for three different cablecos and there are three more here right now, included in that six are all the major players (Time Warner, COX, Comcast). Not one of these six do not offer cable modem service as a stand-alone service. Also, except for special bundled pricing arrangements, all of them are month-to-month (no contracts).
Where are these mythical cable companies that force your to take video service and have contracts? Sounds like AT&T and co. are trying to draw parallels that don't exist between their refusal to sell naked DSL and their standard contracts vs. cable internet.
The problem is I know Verizon has contract-free DSL service, and I'm sure they offer service without phone included as well.
To me, the idea of signing up for any kind of contract for internet service with no quality-of-service guarantee is just stupid.
The reason for the excessive churn is simple: poor customer service, and poor billing policies to prevent it. To stop it, all companies would have to get together and agree to these rules.
The way things are right now, the standard promotion is 6 mos-1 yr, and there is a 1 mos-3 mos waiting period for a new full promo. All that does is encourage "promotion hopping". Throw in the standard free installation and customers will happily jack-knife between providers each year so they're always on a promotion. If they call and threaten to cancel, they can many times get a temporary price cut that is close to what new customers get.
This all sounds great to customers, but it can mess with the market as a whole in terms of what the "standard rate of service" is. Many people think that broadband service is too expensive in the U.S. compared to what you get in other countries, and I'm not going to get into that, but when it's so easy to get a discounted price for service the very term "regular price" becomes meaningless. If broadband providers want to keep their customers around, they are going to have to work together so they eventually are stuck paying the "market rate". Once you have people having to evaluate service based on what the providers think its really worth, you're going to see some changes in what's considered acceptable service for the price and what the price is. Right now the people who lose out are the ones not on promotion who are having to subsidize the huge numbers that are on the provider's balance sheet. Customers who don't call and bitch about their bill every week should not be penalized like this.
A Novel Idea (Score:2)
You don't always have to sign a contract. (Score:5, Informative)
I have Dish Network for TV. When I signed up, the phone rep wanted me to sign a 2 year contract. I simply told them that I wasn't interested, and so they countered with a 1 year contract. Didn't really feel like that either, and so they finally offered a no-contract plan but required like a $49 activation fee. Fine by me.
Same deal with Cingular. They say a 2 year contract is required, but it isn't. All you have to do is ask for less. They'll do a 1 year and might charge you $25 or $50 more for the phone. Big deal. Bring your own phone and tell them you want a month-to-month plan, and they'll do that too.
Same deal with Verizon DSL. They have a month-to-month plan with DSL that costs a couple bucks a month more than the contract price. You just have to ask for it.
The point is, you have to stand up for your rights as a consumer. Tell the company, "I'm here, I'd like to pay for your services, but your terms are unacceptable. What can you do about it?" If they won't bend, find another company that will. I have no sympathy for people that blindly sign contracts and then whine about the consequences later.
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How to cancel TalkTalk (Score:2)
1. The TalkTalk Broadband Start Up Pack.
2. A BT line with TalkTalk broadband activated on it. The date when you should be able to use the broadband service for the first time is called the Commencement Date.
If you don't have items 1 and 2 more than 28 days from the end of the month you were given in TalkTalk's online "Availability Checker", then you are allowed to cancel all of your TalkTalk services complete
Dumping the ISP may cost the consumer, but what if (Score:5, Interesting)
I've got 3 friends who have had their Cable Modems turned off because "they used excessive bandwidth." In those cases, I suspect the early termination fees are not recoverable. If that's the way it works, and you want out, just write up a little program that downloads lots of big files...put it in an infinite loop and voila...in a month or two, the ISP will cancel you.
Your rights online? (Score:2)
Not even PERMITTED to complete my contract... (Score:2, Interesting)
I was within 2 months of fulfilling my 12 month DSL contract with SBC when I got married. My wife already had RoadRunner so after I moved, I called SBC (AT&T by then) asking them to disconnect my service. But since I fully intended to complete my financial obligation of the contract I wanted to pay for the remaining two months.
They refused! I even tried asking them to disconnect my phone, but keep my DSL account and/or service active - even though I wouldn't be using it. Nope - no deal! They said
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
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Been there (Score:4, Insightful)
You may have done this already, but find a Not For Profit credit counsiling, they may be able to get verizon to drop the fees. They can also help with credit cards. They basicallt call the credit agency and they work out a plan.
Every case is different.
In my case, I didn't have to pay car payments, credit payments, or a home mortgage for 6 months. Yes, the car and mortgage payments were put at the end of the loan, but even then it was a life saver. We didn't have to much on credit cards, so we eventually got that paid off and never got another one.
Do it today, now...right now.
It was a year of finacial hell, but if I didn't go to that credit counsiling I would be in a lot worse shape today.
Just be sure it's a not for profit company, and if you have to paty them anything, leave. Find another. You don't need more payments.
hospital bills (Score:3, Interesting)
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So what's your magical plan to avoid unforeseen catastrophes?
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We did that once, and they re-formed. This time, make sure to dump the remains into molten steel.
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The first being one of resources. A competitive DSL carrier needs to have equipment colocated with the switchgear and there isn't infinte space. In Illinois they tried opening the market up and discovered this lack of infinite space. Several court cases ensued. The end result is pretty much that until there is sufficient space in the CO for all potential competitors, none could be accomodated because otherwise it was d
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If you hold up your end of the deal by staying through the length of the contract, you don't pay a fee. You keep the phone, and you can walk away. What's wrong with calling that "free"?
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from ditionary.com:
11. provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment: free parking; a free sample.
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The other option is you pay $3-4 more a month and get a "free" cell phone with a minimum length contract. Almost everyone does this because phones break and they have zero resale value.
Also, different carriers in the US have different requirements for phones, different standar
Re:Dry Line DSL + Month to Month ==No Termination (Score:2)