RIAA Wins In Court Against UW Madison 200
Billosaur writes "A judge has ordered the University of Wisconsin-Madison to turn over the names and contact information for the 53 UW-M students accused of file sharing over the university's networks by the RIAA. 'U.S. District Judge John Shabaz signed an order requiring UW-Madison to relinquish the names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and Media Access Control addresses for each of the 53 individuals.' The ruling came as no surprise to the university, which had previously rejected the request of the RIAA to hand out their settlement letters to alleged copyright violators on their campus. The school feels the RIAA will have a hard time tracking down who did the file-sharing anyway, as the IP addresses the RIAA has for the violations may be mapped to computers in common areas, making it difficult to determine just which people may have made the downloads."
oh... (Score:5, Funny)
did i say anything? why is it ringing at the door at that late time of day? what the f...AAAAAAAARGH...
connection reset by peer.
Re:oh... (Score:5, Funny)
BEDEVERE: What is that?
MAYNARD: He must have died while typing it.
LAUNCELOT: Oh, come on!
MAYNARD: Well, that's what it says.
ARTHUR: Look, if he was dying, he wouldn't bother to type 'AAAAAAAARGH'. He'd just say it!
MAYNARD: Well, that's what's typed in the post!
GALAHAD: Perhaps he was dictating.
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Just for those people who've never seen Holy Grail.
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Just for those people who've never seen Holy Grail.
No "win" (Score:5, Informative)
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So they won in a way that didn't involve following judicial process and was much cheaper in legal bills.
Yea.
Moral of the story (Score:4, Informative)
The moral of the story is if you download illegal music; do it from a university and with a forged MAC. Of course, who's mac is it anyway? Are they going to get a subpoena for every single person that uses the university's network to supply their network cards so the mac address can be examined? That should be fun...
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This would seem to be the best test of that little IP == user question.
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Except for the fact that the case you mention might just be the *only* case where they could actually tie your credit card information to the IP address issued to that card-holder thereby proving it was either you, or somebody with access to your credit card that did the downloading... Not the
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Re:Moral of the story (Score:5, Funny)
"When MAC address spoofing is outlawed, only outlaws will spoof MAC addresses"
spoof? (Score:3, Funny)
hi, I'm a MAC address.
and I'm the RIAA.
just got to get hodgeman to do the voice-over and we're all set.
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Take my advice as a consumer: Sell CD's for $5 without DRM and I'd buy a lot more music. Otherwise, I'll wait for the next AllOfMp3.com to purchase music from. I'm sick enough of the P2P stuff. The radio and my current album collection works just fine for me.
Cheers,
Fozzy
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Re:Moral of the story (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, that's only partly true. UW networks that the average Badger (i.e. likely not to know how or why to spoof their MAC) would plug into are in one of three flavors.
ResNet (wired in rooms in older dorms and wireless in common dining areas and new residence halls). ResNet requires every computer connected to it be registered with a campus NetId (http://www.housing.wisc.edu/resnet/netreg.php [wisc.edu]). Those registrations are attached to MAC addresses so that a device may move around ResNet without having to register to every new jack it encounters. Also, so that a quarantined machine stays in the quarantine subnet until it's cleaned. These registrations expire every 120 days, and IP leases roll faster than that, but the address doesn't change very often as you tend to get the same IP on a renew.
DoIT (Division of Information Technology) Wireless, called UWNet, http://www.doit.wisc.edu/network/wireless/ [wisc.edu] is the main campus wireless and is in classroom buildings, the unions and libraries. A NetId is also required to authenticate each time one connects. These IP addresses probably move around faster. I'm sure DoIT complies with whatever policy is in place for keeping these records, but who knows how long that is.
Wired library computers. These are the working girls of the campus network. One needs a student ID number to access them, but finding a lost card or snooping for a number is not hard. Nor is guessing the 1 digit activation code that needs to be added on the end to authenticate. Again, who knows how long these records are kept.
Also, students in the res halls tend to use a certain jukebox program (comes with a popular music player) that advertises its shared library only within that hall's subnet - so no one external to that subnet is able to see that traffic.
Long way around to saying these John and Jane Does are going to be a bit hard to pin down. Should be fun to watch.
A breakthrough in Internet security (Score:5, Insightful)
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Even if it came to a civil trial, the standard would be preponderance of evidence. What this is about is making a case before a judge that their opponents should be named, which would be considerably lower than what's required for a conviction. This is just the standard to have your day in court, since you obviously can't even hold the trial without an opposing party. Reasonable suspicion?
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This is a clear sign of corporatism, now where is that well regulated militia you were so proud of?
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I don't. But on the bright side, at least I can shoot him to shut him up!
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What would that evidence be if I drop my FileVault image into trash and do a secure erase? It seems that one should show a probability of producing compelling evidence before dragging someone to court. If you have never identified yourself except by IP address and there is no immutable trail of your actions, this seems like a stretch.
Re:A breakthrough in Internet security (Score:4, Funny)
Tip: Do not show up for court wearing your iPod.
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strategy life-span (Score:2)
With DRM implementation plans facing so many hurdles has there been any talk of other avenues this organization might go down.
I refuse to believe that the RIAA believes their current strategy of making examples of isolated individuals will work in the long-term.
Are they fresh out of ideas or have I just missed some news on this front?
Regards.
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This model probably does still depend on considerable numbers of lawsuits. If P2P is unreliable it's only because they keep suing people, driving them out of business, and making people scared to keep their shares open lest the lawyers
Change title (Score:5, Insightful)
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"SonyEvil" or "UniversalEvil", etc..
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dang- I've already forgotten the evil "W" company.
Misleading Headline. Not "Win".Not against UW. (Score:5, Informative)
It was an ex parte proceeding. It was not a "win". There was no one else in court. No one to oppose it.
It was not against University of Wisconsin. It's against the "John Does".
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Did the university have any way to oppose this? Could they have, say, filed some kind of restraining order to force the RIAA to bring a proceeding against the university on the matter of uncovering John Doe identities?
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RIAA: On the basis of fact and belief, we allege people did this on your network. Give us the information so we can find them.
UW: Make us.
RIAA: OK. See you in court.
UW: No you won't.
RIAA:
Re:Misleading Headline. Not "Win".Not against UW. (Score:5, Informative)
This may be a stupid question (Score:5, Insightful)
How does monitoring which IP addresses were on these networks necessarily imply that they were trading copyrighted material? The same goes for the 24,977 shared audio files, who can say that those weren't audio recordings of lectures given by professors, or poetry, or local bands trying to get promotion, etc? Hell, for that matter, who's to say they were music/movies at all? Couldn't they have been ISO's of Linux Distro's, JPG's of the topless drunk prom queen, PowerPoint presentations that study groups were collaborating on via the internet?
I realize that probably not everyone is innocent here, but in terms of PROOF, I just don't know about "facts" like these.
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But back to "preponderance of the evidence." Bas
Settlement, BSA Style (Score:2)
Oh, that won't stop them. I'm sure they'll be happy to offer an enterprise licensing settlement for every student at UW-Madison with auto-renewal on a yearly basis.
Remember, if one infringes, they're ALL liable.
"RIAA will have a hard time tracking down..." (Score:4, Interesting)
I didn't think they needed to? I thought that when the RIAA comes calling, what happens is that you get a notice saying you've already lost a court case some out-of-state court, because the judge rubberstamped their claim that this IP address is you, and now it's up to you to either a) pay a lawyer, go to court, and try to prove your innocence, or b) pay the nice RIAA their reasonable thirty-five-hundred dollars and get on with your life.
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MAC addresses? (Score:2)
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Best simulpost ever. We even had the same title. High five!
MAC addresses? (Score:3, Informative)
How is that going to help them find anyone?
Hey RIAA - read this first. [irongeek.com]
And everyone else too. Never hurts to know stuff like this, y'know. Just in case. Yeah. That's it.
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For Windows and other OS'es on a laptop, a PCMCIA card is a simple solution. Most of the time you use the built in NIC. For other activities, use a slide in card. I use that for road warrier stuff. The built in connection is for my home LAN (Static IP & Gateway) and the slide in is for on the road (DHCP Lease). Having an extra slide in card is trivial. Making it vanish is trivial. Explaining it away is simple. My old one broke/lost and it has been replaced. Using it wi
Isn't this about the same as (Score:4, Funny)
We, the RIAA, represent copyright holders of digital content, and as such, it has come to our attention that you own a computer which is also connected to the Internet via Globalcom ISP.
We have acquired web surfing logs from Globalcom, and have determined that several people in the Northern Hemisphere have been downloading music files illegally. Since you connect to the Internet via Globalcom we are prepared to offer you a discounted amnesty program. You may choose this option, sending us the requisite $5,000 payment via check or major credit card, or you may choose to wait till we take you to court, confiscate your computers, all the computers you have had access to, and the computing and entertainment devices of yourselves, all your family members, and anyone who has been within 50 feet of your wireless router.
We cheerfully await your reply and are certain you will do the right thing.
Sincerely,
The RIAA
Re:Isn't this about the same as (Score:4, Insightful)
When you keep asking that question, it opens up opportunities to ask about the processes used to derive the answer. You keep drilling down bit by bit until you know (to a reasonable certainty) whether or not they really know what happened or whether you are being snowed. It all breaks down once you get to the ISP-assigned IP address. Unless the ISP can attest to a certainty that a customer had the IP address, they can't get anywhere. Once the IP is known, present facts (and even demonstrations!) on IP spoofing. Ask if they (the RIAA) can attest to a certainty that the traffic they monitored came, in fact, from the legitimate IP address and not from a spoofed one. They often jump that hurdle, but I don't understand why the courts keep allowing the RIAA to insist that person A was on the other side of an IP or MAC address. They are allowed to present as fact that which has no proof whatsoever. Are our judges so tech illiterate that they cannot understand such simple concepts? Would they be confused if a letter was presented into evidence with a return address of 1313 Mockingbird Lane? Could they not comprehend that anyone can print ANY reuturn address on any envelope, and they can mail it from any city (not necessarily the writer's city of origin)?
I'm just amazed by people who are so dense as to believe the entire snake-oil pitch thrown by the RIAA. Do they have a right to go after copyright violators? Absolutely? Should they be allowed to gill-net entire lakes just to prove the presence of an invasive species? No, no, a thousand times NO!
FYI (Score:2, Informative)
"UW-M" = University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
"UW" = University of Wisconsin - Madison
Whoever submitted the article mistakenly used the wrong abbreviation.
UW vs. UW-M (Score:3, Informative)
MAC addresses? (Score:2)
worst case, kids, is you have to ditch your $5 ethernet card and buy another one
(that doesn't help with onboard ethernets though. for that, you'd have to ditch the whole mobo.)
if I was a student and someone was going to finger me on my MAC addr, dumping my ethernet card would be one of the first defensive things I'd do.
"hey, it just broke. not my fault. but I bought a new one just yesterday..."
Question Via Analogy (Score:2)
The **AA claim that they IP address 1) points to such-and-such computer, and 2) the owner of that computer must pay.
Except in my analogy, the license plate doesn't change each time I turn on the car.
Is that the same type of logic going on here? Can it be that simple to explain to someone like, say, a judge?
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When I went to school in the late 90s (I remember so well--a 10m ethernet cards strained my budget but it was worth it to play Quake) everyone had to register their MAC address. So if the school is doing this then they at least have a name to point a finger at.
But, DHCP logs fill up pretty fast. Have they been retained all this time? I'm guessing the answer is no.
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The Attorney General's Response (Score:3, Funny)
Oh you americans DEFINITELY need to put an end to (Score:2)
This has gone WAY too far. This is PLAIN OUT INTIMIDATION AND HARASSMENT. There is nothing legal to this.
These bastards are doing a witch hunt, not unlike in Spanish Inquisition style, defining "names" from COMMONLY USED computer ips. (how does that happen, beats the hell out of me despite having been working in I.T. since 6 years).
Just tell me if is there ANYthing about this different from what Spanish Inquisition did in 15th century ; compile a list of names from your so-called sus
Well well well (Score:2)
You missed out contexts in this issue.
Taking someone's money and locking them up is today's burning at the bonfire.
Why every organization should use NAT (Score:2)
Think about it. If you have a class C address range, and you psudo-dynamically (e.g. randomly) map each private (internal) address to a public address then there is no possibility of correlation.
So the fixed servers are given fixed addresses, and the client machines get issued a public address when they go public. Do it in a first requested, next
So the thing to do... (Score:3, Interesting)
MAC addresses, eh? (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes and no (Score:5, Informative)
Lawsuits are rarely profitable on a corporate scale. They are more or less used to scare a certain segment of the population, in this case, parents and gaurdians. This in turn puts pressure on the actual offenders. They aren't looking for compensation for the theft which is what lawsuits were supposed to be for to begin with. Instead it's being used as a message which, to me, is an abuse of the system and the judges and lawyers involved should be taking action to stop it as it significantly reduces the credibility of their own system.
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Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:5, Insightful)
I doubt it, this generation has learned the same lesson the Vietnam baby boomers learned. They've learned that you can't beat the man. They will grow up to do the same thing the baby boomers did, sell out and sell out hard.
'As far as outdated business models are concerned, there are legal ways to get this material, so the "outdated business model" argument is no longer valid.'
Are they still charging based upon artificial scarcity and the number of 'copies'? Supply and demand dictates that productions and distribution bottlenecks define costs. The music industry is based around old bottlenecks that no longer apply. Bittorrent and Digital copying means that 1 song is no more valuable than 10,000 songs. You can set up a studio in which to record and cut albums for less than 5k now. There are and always have been plenty of talented artists, they are a dime a dozen (sorry artists, but its true). Music is cheap to produce and in virtually unlimited supply.
Once upon a time when market dynamics changed this drastically companies went out of business, even huge companies, and new ones sprang up that worked differently. Now D.C. has sold out to the point that those companies effectively buy legislation to keep them relevant.
Music was never a good way for an artist to make a living. Most bands sound great when coupled with great recording. Its time for professional music to be about concerts and recorded music to be free promotional material. The recording industry should effectively be artist unions that do just that, offer high quality recordings as REASONABLE prices perhaps even free recording and hosting with union dues.
Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:5, Insightful)
Dollars aren't worth any more than counterfeit in and of themselves. They are supposed to represent value. Music doesn't represent anything, it has only its innate value. You are right, technology has made it cost nothing to copy something as much as you like and the people have spoken, they don't see anything wrong with using that technology. This has ALREADY devalued songs to the point where they don't have a value worth measuring.
'Ultimately, the more people distribute music for free, the less the song is worth, because a cheaper source exists for free, so you need to charge less to entice people to buy the legal copy.'
Did you even read the post you are responding to. I maintain that free sources of all the music are already plentiful enough that the value is nothing. At least that is the value to the ones receiving the music. The artists can realize greater value from the recorded music by using as promotional material. Those same artists can make a living by PERFORMING music, privately and publically. Those artists can form unions that provide bittorrent trackers and P2P networks to distribute their music. Those same unions can provide recording time at cost, union dues might be enough to cover cost and if not a small surcharge (no greater than cost) would be charged. Either way, cheap equipment and software packages have made professional grade recording affordable for garage bands.
'The value of something is defined by it's demand, not by it's cost to reproduce.'
No, demand is only one side of the coin. The other side is supply. Despite your last statement that demand is the only factor everything else you have said admits that the existing ready supply of free music that is large enough to fill the demand has effectively reduced the value of recorded songs to nothing. The answer is to let the multi-billion dollar industry that revolves around song recording to collapse and let new markets that accept this reality spring up. Not to pass laws to attempt to artificially inflate the value of the recorded songs to something rather than nothing.
In fact, to everyone reading this thread. I know a few local bands. Would anyone be willing to donate bandwidth to host the torrents and trackers so that I can help get a union like this started?
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The value of something is defined by it's demand, not by it's cost to reproduce.
Bollocks. The demand for oxygenated air is incredibly high--- about 60 liters per minute per person, on average--- and yet the cost of air is zero. "Value" is determined by two things: 1) what the buyer is willing to pay, and 2) what the seller is willing to let it go for. If the two are compatible, a transaction happens. The record companies are trying to sell air. Historically, the value of phonorecords came primarily from the difficulty of fixing sound to a medium such that it could be replayed. Recordi
Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is. Has been for some time now- ever since the US government decided to try to create one world currency only loosely linked to a commodity instead of strongly linked (the fiat petrodollar). Of course, the final thing that killed it is the number of banks that keep extra dollars around that only exist in cyberspace- there are far more "dollars" out there than can be accounted for by the government printing offices.
After all, if I counterfeit money, I'm not hurting anyone, right?
Given that the government has been counterfieting money since the 1930s, how could you?
People still want music and are willing to pay for it.
Now that is a separate issue. The broken business model is the one of artifical scarcity- the music isn't scarce anymore. NEW recordings are what is scarce. Therefore, I'd propose a whole new business model for the music industry- low bandwidth (8 bit, 22khz, mono) recordings for free, higher quality tracks (16 bit 44khz stereo) for $.25 (double what the bands get now from ASCAP/BMI), and all of the money going to the band. Forget the record labels- and if you want a CD, buy the tracks you want off the band's website and burn it yourself. No DRM or copyrights. This encourages the bands to continue to put out new stuff- as high quality bitrate recordings will get out into the wild on the filesharing networks, the sales will drop off for older tracks,so to keep making money bands will have to put out new stuff.
Copying it because it's easy is no more ethical than counterfeiting money.
Wrong end of the stick. Copying it because it's easy means that the copying itself has very low real ecconomic value- it's the creation that should have high ecconomic value. The RIAA is in an obsolete business model, because their business model depends upon getting money from COPYING other people's work. They need badly to become extinct as the buggy whip makers. The artists are who deserve the money, not the RIAA.
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Just because something is obsolete doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore. My parents still have a hand pump in their garden well- but it's rarely used. Likewise, my paychecks are direct deposited, and I spend with a debit card. I rarely even
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You clearly understand what you're talking about very well, and as such you should know that when people have been going on about money being real, they're talking about currency as a moderator of trade, not as in the coin of the realm. Its apples and oranges, and replying to apples with oranges is disingenuous debate.
Money as the moderator of exchange is very real, and in that sense you are living proof, just by using it to live... unless you're accruing the means of
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It's hard to debate fairly against those who are not intellectually equal.
You clearly understand what you're talking about very well, and as such you should know that when people have been going on about money being real, they're talking about currency as a moderator of trade, not as in the coin of the realm. Its apples and oranges, and replying to apples with oranges is disingenuous debate.
Currency as a moderator of trade ceased to have any value the day the gov
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Yes. And? Since when was the path supposed to be easy?
"Currency as a moderator of trade ceased to have any value the day the government started to counterfiet it; it just takes time for the myth to fall under it's own lies."
Wrong, currency as a moderator of trade continues to have value as long as those who participate in the game continue to accept it. We assign value through our actions. We use money as a moderator of trade, sim
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"My path is easy and my yoke is light". Seems to me that when we put our faith in truth instead of lies, the path is a lot easier.
Wrong, currency as a moderator of trade continues to have value as long as those who participate in the game continue to accept it. We assign value through our actions. We use money as a moderator of trade, simple as that. You may feel free, obviously to believe whatever you want, but that doesnt change the fact that you
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Or I just download the deck plans off of the internet, use my desktop fabricator to make legos out of grass clippings and epoxy, and make the deck myself. Isn't that far more efficient than paying somebody else to do it?
The point is that it is becoming less and less economic to exchange services AT
mnb Re:Where's your 'haha' tag now? (Score:2)
Spoken like a man who hasn't worked a day of manual labor in his life.
I'm not sure what "less economic" means, but I get the strong impression you don't believe in the concept of "skilled labor" and see
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Incorrect. Spoken like a man who knows that machines can work a far more efficient day's worth of manual labor than any human being can- and as time goes on, they WILL.
I'm not sure what "less economic" means, but I get the strong impression you don't believe in the concept of "skilled labor" and seem to think you can teach yourself to perform services (at equal quality) for less than you can buy them.
You can't. But there's nothing a
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Did I suggest otherwise?
You are the one saying money is outdated today.
You are the one discounting the value of skilled labor today.
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Yes, in a way you did. You're arguing that the RIAA still has value, that recording companies still have value- when EVERYTHING they do can be done better by the individual.
You are the one saying money is outdated today.
For the music industry, it already is. For the rest of us- well, labor value has been going down for 40 years now and it's showing no sign of stopping.
You are the one discounting the value of skilled labor today.
If you can call any job done better by a rob
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I see I made the mistake of taking you literally.
I wasn't talking of the RIAA at all.
I don't argue analogies stretched beyond the breaking point.
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Or rather, we consider marketing to be an ecconomically negative activity that destroys efficiency and allows inferior products to outmarket superior products.
and don't understand business in general.
That statement I'll agree with. Why should I trade for something I can do myself?
If a programmer writes the most kick-ass game in the world, and nobody's heard of it, he's not going to sell any copies.
True- but that
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Exactly my point- marketing allows inferior products to beat superior products in the marketplace. The most marketing you should EVER have to do is give me a spec sheet- if you can't sell me your product based on a spec sheet alone, then you've got
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Eventually, it will get to that point; the inefficiency of current file sharing networks (for instance, grokster is not compatible with bittorrent) will keep this away for a while. But I strongly suspect, long after the RIAA is gone and stops controling the prices, that the price will once again rise- after all, the band still has to eat. It will balance out someplace between selling t
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Separating out from the rest of your rant- a modern business model separates the low economic value stuff out (like making copies of CDs) from the high ecconomic value stuff (writing new songs, live performances) and finds a way to make money on the high ecconomic value stuff while giving away the low ecconomic value stuff for free.
As for your rant about the GPL- well, yes. Agreed. Not a problem for me. I don't care to get paid by
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Uh, no. See other posts where I put forth a different business model that doesn't include advertising or copying CDs- which I consider to be low ecconomic value activities. The rest of your rant makes no se
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I think you missed the sections about copyright in the constitution.
I think one of t
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Congress has authority to regulate virtually all private economic activity.
Shouldn't that assertion be preposterious enough to let any thinking citizen know that the judgement was wrong? Not that I would dare suggest that the government is just a puppet show designed to ensure profit for the rent seekers managing the banking system.
At some point the citizens of the United States need to accept that, by and large, 90% of their patriotism is being exploited for the profit of a select group of individuals who wouldn't risk a single hair on their heads if the tables were turned. We
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The point of the Civil War amendments was to make crystal clear to the South what the war had decided.
There would be no more talk of slavery, there would be no more talk of succession. There would be - ultimately - no legitimate legal argument for a second-class citizenship within the st
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The winner of a civil war gets to define the political meaning of the victory it paid for in blood.
Re:Common area IP addresses won't exactly stop the (Score:2)
So, in this hypot
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My local library makes patrons scan their library card to log into the public computers. Instituting this means the person at the reference desk no longer has to keep track of how long people have been on (since there are not enough computers to meet demand generally). But I think the real reason they did it was so they could track who was looking at what online in case the FBI and the PATRIO
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The answer is probably yes. Which is why it might be a good idea for the university to lock down these systems now rather than later.
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FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SUED IN MOTORIST DEATH CASE.
John James Smith filed a suit in Federal Court today indicting the United States Government in the death of his wife, Mary Jane Smith of Nowheretown, Pennsylvania. Mary was driving on the Interstate highway system when she was killed. Borrowing from the tactics of the R.I.A.A., the case argues that since the car was on the Federal highway, the Federal Government must be responsible for everything that happens on the highway.
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I haven't purchased any CD's lately because they are overpriced, lower quality (compressed to sound loud), and might not work properly to the point of damaging the operating system on a computer (DRM).
For less money I can and do buy buy better content for less money. (Recent DVD's 2 or 3 for $20)
I can Rip them to my media server (see recent MPAA ARS article on Slashdot and the Kalidascope rulling).
Even the recent SONY copy protected
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I don't think I supported the RIAA in this transaction, and I got a good product, fully legal (I guess, I'm not too wor