Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft Displays Technology Entertainment Games

A Look Beneath the 'Surface' 177

Posted by Zonk from the just-don't-crack-the-surface dept.
Hajsky writes "Ars Technica takes a closer look at Microsoft's new "Surface" tabletop device. Turns out that Surface isn't actually a touchscreen at all, but uses five cameras located in the table's base to record movement and touch. 'The five cameras are near-infrared devices, but that's not because they are trying to read heat signatures from fingertips (or other body parts) on the table. Instead, it's because the entire surface of Surface is bathed in light; by illuminating the top of the table, the cameras can easily see when things are placed on it. Shining colored light across the surface of the table would spoil the effect that Microsoft wants, so near-infrared light is used for invisible illumination.' The whole setup runs on a Core 2 Duo and off-the-shelf hardware, and can handle 52 simultaneous touches." jfanning wrote with a link to an overview of similar technology used in the Helsinki 'CityWall'. The article she provides discusses the unique public display, and has an in-depth video on the way these kinds of setups work.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

A Look Beneath the 'Surface' More

A Look Beneath the 'Surface'

Comments Filter:

  • D'oh (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Swizec ( 978239 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @03:50PM (#19343579) Homepage
    The video in yesterday's post DID say that the whole thing was run by five cameras. Doesn't it still make a touchscreen if stuff happens when you touch it? Why woudl it be any less of a touch screen if it sees you touchign it instead of feeling it?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hatta ( 162192 )
      And does it run Linux?

    • That's not the principle of a camera (Score:5, Funny)

      by Nymz ( 905908 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @04:02PM (#19343781) Journal
      A camera doesn't just detect touch, it can detect movement, objects, people, etc. For example, if you where in a conference room, and someone lifted a chair to throw, then the cameras could identify the object being thrown, who is throwing it, and whom it was aimed at, and then play the appropriate sound file DUCK.wav!!!

  • Jeff Han's work at NYU and Perspective Pixel (Score:5, Informative)

    by orospakr ( 715849 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @03:52PM (#19343615) Homepage
    Jeff Han lead project at NYU to produce multi-touch display technology and some demo applications.

    Take a look at the original work at NYU: http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/ [nyu.edu]

    And the spin-off company by the same guys to develop the technology: http://www.perspectivepixel.com/ [perspectivepixel.com]

    Very cool stuff. If you look closely, you can tell that they're running it on GNU/Linux.

    Hopefully, they'll chose to collaborate with the X and kernel guys to create proper generic interfaces for multi-touch pointing device input.
    • Windows, actually.. that is World Wind on there and that does not work in Linux.
    • It's *Perceptive* Pixel, http://www.perceptivepixel.com/ [perceptivepixel.com]

  • DIY Multi Touch (Score:5, Informative)

    by Picass0 ( 147474 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @03:53PM (#19343625) Homepage Journal
    http://tinker.it/now/2007/02/28/multitouch-table-e xperiment/ [tinker.it]

            * 1 panel of plexiglass 8mm thickness
            * 2 strips of IR LEDs (18 LED per strip)
            * 2 sheets of tracing paper
            * 1 projector
            * 1 mirror
            * 1 analog camera sensitive to IR light
            * 1 IR filter for the camera
            * 1 computer

    The traking was done using vvvv. http://vvvv.org/tiki-index.php [vvvv.org]

    ==============

    Also See:
    http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/01/build-your-own- multi-touch-table/ [engadget.com]
    http://www.slashgear.com/make-your-own-multitouch- projected-table-284137.php [slashgear.com]

  • touches (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DaMattster ( 977781 )
    So I wonder if I got six of my friends and we all touched the Surface at the same time with all of our fingers. Would that produce the Blue Surface Of Death? Or would it drive the bloody thing psychizo?

  • The frustrations of parallax (Score:5, Interesting)

    by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @03:58PM (#19343709)
    I can't help but wonder how they will compensate for parallax between users' eyes, fingertips, and the screen objects. I'd imagine that the display panel will be relatively thick for structural reasons and that most users will be sitting far off the central axis of the table (i.e., the coffee-table scenario). This means that the image on the screen will be displaced with respect to the line sight from eyeball to fingertip. Moreover different people sitting around the table will see different parallax displacements between fingertips and the screen. Without some compensation for this, the device will be frustrating to use because it won't be intuitive as to where to touch the table top to "touch" an underlying display object. People will often touch the screen where they think they should only to find they've grabbed the object next to the one they really wanted.

    P.S. Acrylic is a horrible choice of material for the top as it scratches too easily.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by nine-times ( 778537 )

      It seems like it could be frustrating, but more likely it'll just be imprecise. Parallax will only throw the thing off by so much, so the smart thing to do would be to design all the controls to be big enough that an approximation would be sufficient. After all, you're supposed to control this thing with your fingers, and not with an ultra-precise stylus.

      • Yeah, and the video of things like transferring files, you literally "throw the file" towards the device.
    • I don't think the table is likely to be so terriby thick that parallax would be a problem.

      I've found some coatings for acrylic that is supposed to make it scratch resistant. I'll have to dig that reference up some time.

    • Projector. (Score:4, Informative)

      by pavon ( 30274 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @04:57PM (#19344611)
      The article mentioned that the device uses a rear projector for the screen, so they could easily have the scattering surface (what the image is projected onto) be the topmost layer (or beneath a very thin protective layer), resting on top of the thick structural portion (transparent glass or plastic).
    • Not a problem if the cameras see the hands and arms attached to the fingertips. The cameras could see where a person is pointing from and where their eye level is to correct for parallax. Beyond that, software could try and notice when a user has to try two or three times to find the right finger position and adjust for that user. It could also see differences in fingertips such as fingernails and length, then store profiles to adjust for that user.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by veganboyjosh ( 896761 )
      I use Illustrator all day at work. I'd hate to have to use my fingers, instead of the precision of a mouse pointer. Even zoomed in, with more complex artwork, the miniscule mouse point is too large and cludgy to be as precise as I'd like. I can't imagine using a mouse pointer that's 1/2 inch wide.
    • Probably not an issue. From the various sites on the subject, the thickness of the surface that you shine LEDs into needs to be around 10mm (.4 inches) thick. That's not enough to have appreciable parallax issues between the display and the image.

      Also, the acrylic is the light diffracting medium. There are lots of scratch resistant coatings that can go on top of it. Scratching isn't really an issue unless they neglect that.

  • Gorilla arm (Score:5, Interesting)

    by $RANDOMLUSER ( 804576 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @04:00PM (#19343743)
    Does anybody remember the HP touchscreen computer (from back in the Lisa days) which bombed miserably because people couldn't hold their arms up for hours on end? The thing about a mouse or trackball is that a little motion produces a lot of motion of the cursor - without fatigue.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Wordplay ( 54438 )
      I'm not sure that argument applies to a horizontal surface. You can always designate a portion of it as "the touchpad" if that's the effect you want.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by WrongSizeGlass ( 838941 )
      The old HP-150's [columbia.edu] had what was called a 'touch screen'. When your finger broke the infrared X,Y grid it registered it as a 'touch'. We used them as POS devices with great success.
      • That's the one. I remember it came with an app that gave you an HP-12C calculator onscreen where you touched the calculator keys on the screen.

    • Does anybody remember the HP touchscreen computer (from back in the Lisa days) which bombed miserably because people couldn't hold their arms up for hours on end? The thing about a mouse or trackball is that a little motion produces a lot of motion of the cursor - without fatigue.

      I don't think that the idea here is that you will use this computer in the same way you use other computers.

      Most people don't need a full keyboard on a PDA, because most people don't use a PDA the same way they use a PC. They don

  • Power cords? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by HockeyPuck ( 141947 )
    So if I wanted to use this thing as a coffee table, which in many homes sits in front of the couch, I would then have to run a powercord across the floor to this 'table'? Nice.

    How much power does this thing consume? Wonder what happens to it if you spill a drink on the surface.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by casings ( 257363 ) *
      Or you could install an electrical outlet into the floor... just a thought.

      and i doubt much would happen if you spilled something, unless it seeped in through cracks...
    • Not if you have that surface conducting fabric that somebody else demoed a few weeks back. Your carpet becomes the power cord.

    • So if I wanted to use this thing as a coffee table, which in many homes sits in front of the couch, I would then have to run a powercord across the floor to this 'table'? Nice.

      While I understand your point, I don't really consider that a strike against the device's design. It's just a reality of life that electronic devices require power. Besides, there are more than a few ways to run power to the center of a room discretely.

      How much power does this thing consume?

      Essentially it's a DLP projector, a mid range home PC, and a few infrared cameras. Probably not the most energy efficient device, but I doubt it consumes much more electricity than a standard PC setup.

      Wonder what happens to it if you spill a drink on the surface.

      Probably nothing. The surface is covered with acry

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by brkello ( 642429 )
      Yes, things that require power need you to plug them in. Shocking (literally)
    • The only thing stranger than you sharing your ridiculous, contrived, and poorly-thought-out struggle to hate this interesting device is the fact that you managed to get up-modded for it -- insightful even!

  • Gaming? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Shadow Wrought ( 586631 ) * <.moc.liamg. .ta. .thguorw.wodahs.> on Thursday May 31, 2007 @04:04PM (#19343829) Homepage Journal
    Could this be a forerunner of a gaming tabletop? All the terrain, units and record keeping are kept for you as you play on a largish surface. Could be pretty cool.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by nightwing2000 ( 539158 )
      The full-desk display would be neat - but the obvious question is - what's the resolution?

      This thing is just a projection unit, which means underneath is bulky and blocked off. It doesn't seem to be the real table-top display we're all looking for, where you can pop up a window and read it about the same size and resolution as a piece of paper. Basically it should be an electronic D-paper. I think I'll wait.

      So, the big deal is the interface. This sounds too complicated. Each special item has to have its

      • Resolution is XGA (Score:3, Informative)

        by Namarrgon ( 105036 )

        The projector resolution is currently 1024 x 768, according to the Popular Mechanics [popularmechanics.com] article. The "touchscreen" camera resolution works out to about 1280 x 960. Not exactly high; hopefully this can be improved by the time I need to replace my coffee table...

        There's some good details in that article, a nice diagram and some more in-depth videos too.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by QuantumG ( 50515 )
      Sounds like a good idea.

      Anything to stop me falling asleep playing Civilization.

    • Have a look at this, a custom gaming setup someone built for D&D. Not practical for the average user, but cool.
    • Oops. I meant: Have a look at this custom gaming setup [d20srd.org].
    • I especially think its ability to visually recognize objects would pair well with games. Combining tangible 3D pieces from boardgames with animations and computing abilities from video games sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by antdude ( 79039 )
      Something like this old story [slashdot.org]?
  • Yes but, can it read palms?

    That would, btw, be a great password method. Place your palm down on it to login.

    As far as automated fortune telling, that would certainly be the app that many people would come over to try first.

  • old stuff (Score:2, Redundant)

    by nanosquid ( 1074949 )
    Camera-based multitouch surfaces were first built about 20 years ago. They're nice but not all that useful.
  • I must be missing something.

    I wasn't that impressed with the whole thing. Yes, the way it handles external storage devices placed on the surface is slick and a few of the UI features use the interface well but overall it doesn't seem very interesting. At least not nearly interesting enough to live up to the hype I've heard over the last two days.

    I've heard claims about how this will revolutionize the way we interact with computers. Someone explain what new things I'll be able to do with this. Some explain h
    • Here ya go. [msn.com] Watch for yourself, because I'm not getting paid to sell you it. Requires flash.

      Judging from Gates' comments at D5, he expects future screens to have at least one camera to look at what users are doing such as pointing or touching the screen, and respond.
  • ...and can handle 52 simultaneous touches.

    Gaming Geek Reference: Does this limitation remind anyone else of the old solution to D&D enemies with stoneskin - throwing pebbles/gold pieces at 'em until you wear out their stoneskins?

    I got 53 cents worth of pennies around here somewhere. Let's see what happens!

  • Applications for the Table (Score:3, Interesting)

    by deleo77 ( 1065150 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @04:36PM (#19344319)
    The more I think about it, this table (or whatever they end up calling it) could be the computing device that finally succeeds in finding its way into peoples' living rooms. People don't want to compute off of their TV, they only want their TV to display things, that's why every attempt to combine the internet with a TV has pretty much failed. But imagine this device somehow integrated into your coffee table and using it to order and pay for a pizza, using it to control your home lighting and thermostat, using it to look at photos, magazines, catalogues, pay your bills, or using it to sort through your home media library of music and movies. The list goes on and on. The technology will have to get better, the cost will have to come down, it will have to be simple to use, and the applications will have to be developed flawlessly, but I actually think Microsoft could pull it off. If Apple created this people would be gushing over it because they would know that Apple would succeed in doing all of the above. Microsoft should pour a lot of money and resources into this, because they might be on to something big. I hope they pull it off; there isn't enough innovation out there these days, too many copy cat devices. It's time for something new and this could be it.

    • Re:Applications for the Table (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Irish_Samurai ( 224931 ) on Thursday May 31, 2007 @05:18PM (#19344865)
      Man, I can think of a ton of things that I could write myself using XNA.

      • Specialized drink glass code that you could play drinking games with (russian roulette comes to mind)
      • Almost every board game ever made
      • Air Hockey
      • A MTG interface
      • If there was a way to start manufacturing items, or self encoding, with the domino encoding on them, writing an app that queries wikipedia when the item is placed on it to give you a neato little "Identify" effect
      • Take the same idea as above, but it allows you to purchase said item directly from the vendor by tapping you credit card on the table. Cool if you have people visiting or if you are at someone elses house.
      • Another layer of immersion with certain types of digital media (travel shows can display interactive maps without using up viewing real estate, ect...)
      • Multi user story telling - Essentially choose your own adventure where everyone was a character and chose from a list of actions to dynamically create a story or show.
      • Virtual turntables
      • A real time map of my house with live feeds from webcams actually playing in the roomspace
      • A tool that allows you to generate custom tabletop game boards and rule structures on the fly. Lego men now have another use!
      • A visual warehouse management tool
      • Virtual home decorating swatches (although the screen and projection tech may need to catch up on that one)


      I could go on and on. None of this is really mindblowing, but there could be a very decent cottage industry popping up around this one item alone.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by wellingj ( 1030460 )
        "I could go on and on. None of this is really mindblowing"

        But at least we have prior art on it now...
      • Man, I can think of a ton of things that I could write myself using XNA.

        I think to sum up what you have in Surface is very social-oriented - family-oriented - interaction with the computer. It can be a table. It could be a wall. But it is going to appeal very strongly to those attracted to the Wii.

        • I agree completely.

          And on a relative point, please notice that you STILL can't find a Wii anywhere - the shit is selling as fast as they can make them.

          To be honest, I don't know why Surface is only pointed at businesses right now. I know I would be more than willing to spend 10K to get the largest model available - and not for that "Look at the cool shit I have" reason. I WANT THIS FOR MY OWN USE! I have so many things I am willing to code for it myself its not even funny.

          Hell, there were people paying more
  • One thing I've notice with most microsoft products is that they give them generic names. This makes it very hard to search on the web for their products. Is it a strategy?
  • You too can build your own Surface: reacTable [mtg.upf.es], Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org].
  • Seriously, a "Surface" machine in a busy public place is going to be a smeared mess within an hour. I wonder if the MSFT people have thought of this. I can just imagine my wife: "Ewww...I'm not going to touch that..."

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by randyest ( 589159 )
      I imagine those who can afford a $5-10k Surface computer can also afford to have it cleaned regularly, and more than likely will place it somewhere that dirty people can't very well afford to be very often. They might even provide little monitor cleaning wipes right there at the Surface to let you manage your germ phobia as you see fit!

      Another desperate struggle to hate something neat because it's from MIKKKRO$OFT. Sigh. Must be hell with that woman -- she won't touch anything "dirty?" Yikes.

    • Seriously, a "Surface" machine in a busy public place is going to be a smeared mess within an hour.
      Welcome to the 21st Century, where we have used all sorts of touch-sensitive machines for years, without this happening.
  • Sure it looks nice when you put a camera on top of it and the picture pops out, but I don't think it's very scalable in the age of multi-gigabyte flash cards, or more then one flash card for that matter. You also have to be careful not to put a stray finger down while dragging things. Seems to be one of the things that looks better when someone else is using it.
    • Why would this not be as "scalable" for use with "multi-gigabyte flash cards" as any other wireless PC connection? 56MB+ wifi, bluetooth, wireless USB, ...

      And why would a "stray finger" matter? The one that has "a hold of" the thing you're dragging is still there. Why would the software necessarily be confused by another touch somewhere else? Did you notice that it can manage 56 simultaneous touches and works with many users at the same time?

      I apologize if I'm interfering with your contrived effor

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by arose ( 644256 )

        Why would this not be as "scalable" for use with "multi-gigabyte flash cards" as any other wireless PC connection? 56MB+ wifi, bluetooth, wireless USB, ...

        I meant the interface, not the connection. When you place a camera on the desk and a few photos pop up it's neat, when a few hundred pop up you have a mess.

        And why would a "stray finger" matter? The one that has "a hold of" the thing you're dragging is still there. Why would the software necessarily be confused by another touch somewhere else?

        I wasn't

  • I remember HP came out with a few workstations (back in those days workstation meant beefy desktop computer) with touch sensitive (amber, if I recall correctly) screens, where they used infrared LEDs and sensors, that formed an invisible grid on the screen. NOw MS uses cameras as sensors, but heck if this isn't the same thing.
    • Yeah, I totally remember taking my camera and dropping it on the screen of my home workstation I flipped horizontally to serve as a coffee table. My pictures popped out in ASCII form and I was able to change the red color to blue and brown (only 8 colors, so not too much of a choice) and eliminate redeye. Ahhhhh, memories.
  • Pre-Surface, but shows some more cool applications [fastcompany.com] for a multi-touch interface.
  • This reminds me of a (very cool) audio/visual project called reactable [mtg.upf.es]. Wikipedia article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReacTable [wikipedia.org]
  • Looks like iBar? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6509090414 611358862&q=bar+projectors&hl=en [google.com] This stuff has been around for awhile...
  • Cool, so a more precise version could be implemented by utilizing ultraviolet light instead. Plus, it would give you a tan as you used it. AH! MY EYES!!!

Slashdot Top Deals

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

Close