France Bans BlackBerries In Govt. On Fears of Spying 268
DesertBlade writes "French government officials are no longer allowed to use BlackBerries for official correspondence. The reason? Fear that the US government will snoop out French national secrets via RIM's network. From the article: '"The risks of interception are real. It is economic war," daily Le Monde quoted Alain Juillet, in charge of economic intelligence for the government, as saying. With BlackBerries, there is "a problem with the protection of information," he said. Juillet's office confirmed that he spoke to Le Monde but said he would not talk to other reporters. Officials at the presidential Elysee Palace and the prime minister's office were not immediately available for comment. Le Monde said information sent from BlackBerries goes through servers in the United States and Britain, and that France fears that the U.S. National Security Agency can snoop.'"
Entirely plausible, even likely. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Entirely plausible, even likely. (Score:5, Funny)
It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Interesting)
This was why Australia tried to withdraw from Echelon, and outed the project when we whined. We refused to let them redact sensitive information regarding Australian businesses from the data, and they knew we were using it against them even though we were partners in the project.
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It's been going on longer than that (Score:5, Funny)
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Really? I find shooting fish in a barrel to get dull after a while.
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they never did find who were spying on the greeks.
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1703702,0
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Duh (Score:5, Funny)
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20 years ago I would have thought such claims to be paranoid conspiracies. I remember rumours about the existence of ECHELON, and strenuous denials of its existence from my own government (the government of New Zealand) and other involved governments. Then, five or six years ago, the Australians admitted it existed, and that i
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--
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yeah, I guess you wouldn't know anything about blind hatred.
Pointless demand (Score:2, Interesting)
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It wasn't Airbus (Score:3, Informative)
This from.... (Score:2, Interesting)
http://www.iht.com/articles/1991/09/14/spy_.php/ [iht.com]
Re:This from.... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Industrial Espionage (Score:3, Interesting)
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Re:Industrial Espionage (Score:5, Insightful)
Psychologists call this "projection. [wikipedia.org]" That's why adulterers are more likely to accuse their spouse of cheating, etc.
That said, we both probably spy on each other as much as possible.
--JoeRe: (Score:2)
It hardly takes subtle impression formation psychodynamics to assume that the other guy would do what you would do in this situation. Looking at the chessboard from the perspective of the other player is elementary strategy.
Re:Industrial Espionage (Score:5, Funny)
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It's not unreasonable (Score:5, Insightful)
Even when laws are obeyed they differ from country to country, and one country might not appreciate the latitude (or lack of it) in the way another country handles information and espionage.
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Currently? Why would they have ever trusted them? This time period is little different from the Cold War era. The only serious change is that it is now easier than ever for the Government to automatically spy and have less chance of getting caught.
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I'm afraid that the USA makes an easy target for outrage and will always be an easy target.
Spying is necessary. Every nation is looking out for its own self interests. Spying on government entitites is fair game. Spying on your own citizens is not. It is a very fine ethical line but as long as the focus is fore
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Yes, some spying is necessary. Part of the game that governments have always played with each other. But espionage at all levels, for any purpose is not alright with me. Those are limits we impose on ourselves internally, based on our own ideas, not those of other countries. It w
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Allies, ALLIES, we don't need no stinkin ALIIES.
Why should anybody at any time accept behaviour by a company or a count
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It is a very fine ethical line but as long as the focus is foreign governments, they are on the right side of that ethical line.
This is a great example of the philosophical and ethical quagmire that nationalism thrusts us into -- it causes us to see the world in terms of "us" and "them," where "we" have more rights than "they."
It causes "us" to go to war with "them," instead of identifying with the human race as one collective entity.
Which we are, and we ought to behave as such, considering that all we
isn't RIM Canadian? (Score:4, Insightful)
2. would a Canadian like to clear their throat and defend a Canadian company accused of complicity with US Spying? seems like France is insulting Canada more than the US here
i think the real culprit here is economic competition. it's not outright economic protectionism, but it's a shrewd effort at spreading FUD to protect the real goal: the nurturing of a Fench homegrown RIM alternative
maybe the French are just pissed that the Internet didn't grow from Minitel [wikipedia.org]
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Ooh, good homework, respect.
Your point re FUD is certainly a good one though although I'm not aware of any French 'answer to Blackberry' systems about to hit the market.
Award for Most Misguided Trust Goes To.... (Score:2)
shrewd effort at spreading FUD
I'm sorry to inform you that countries spy on each other. Activities categorized under spying include lots of activities that most citizens would find distasteful to say the least.
Instead of the spooks sitting on their ever-expanding rear-ends collecting data, it means they need to keep field agents working France and turning more French politicians and policy wonks.
What you should consider carefully is the implications of this public statement. It tacitly
why do you trust the french? (Score:2)
"What you should consider carefully is the implications of this public statement. It tacitly verifies the U.S. Government is collecting that data and getting full cooperation from probably way more than just America telcos."
right. because the american government is evil and the french government is good
what a retard
here's a wacky concept: BOTH GOVERNMENTS LIE
fascinating idea isn't it?
a moron blindly trusts what
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If a notorious liar tells you "2+2=4," wouldn't you believe him?
Re:isn't RIM Canadian? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Seems rational (Score:5, Interesting)
The real news story would be any government organization, US or foreign, that _WAS_ entrusting valuable national secrets to a third party vendor anywhere. The US isn't the only country with ELINT, and unless you have a network that doesn't require external trust (eg, the encryption is done server side or via a proprietary program that could be compromised) there's every reason NOT to make it easy for someone to profit at your expense.
The minute God crapped out the third cave man, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them. You don't need to be a tin-foil wearing, taxi driving crazypants to know this.
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Not likely without a reason but not unlikely if they had some reason to care.
'listening for words like "bomb" and "president" on his phone calls to his mother'
You do realize this isn't a conspiracy theory right? This has been leaked, confirmed, and publicly defended by the dictat... err president.
'The minute God crapped out the third cave man, a conspiracy was hatched against o
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That's the real reason right there. Sure, there's plenty of conspiracy theories that are correct, but there are so many that are completely out there that people hear one and initially guess that it's in that nutty maj
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And Slashdot poster Chairboy was no more.
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NO CARRIER
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I think i've figured it out - there's clearly a correlation between people typing directly into the request body of a HTTP POST request via a dial-up modem and those who are taken away from the government.
I use a browser and a real internet connection, so I'm not at risk.
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Happens all the time up here in Canada -- home of RIMM, btw.
For example, the British Columbia government uses Accenture, IBM and Maximus -- all firms subject to US data recovery legislation.
Is RIM really that stupid? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is RIM really that stupid? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's only true if you audit the entire Blackberry software stack for side-channel information leaks at the machine code level. I refer you to Ken Thompson's classic, Reflections on Trusting Trust. [acm.org] I've actually worked with a vendor that has tools for embedding special kinds of sentinels [arxan.com] in object code, taking an even more direct and undetectable route than Ken did.
They're right to be wary.
--JoeRe: (Score:2)
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That's the surface concern, but really they should be concerned end-to-end, and probably are.
--JoeRe: (Score:2, Interesting)
France has a very legitimate concern. In fact, I'd be amazed if, given the US's history, RIM wasn't already sending every email that goes through their system to the NSA.
Yes, RIM might be headquartered in Canada, but if being in another country can't stop the US from abducting you and sending you to be tortured, why would that stop them from snooping on RIM's servers?
Insighful?? No. (Score:2)
At this point in time, I don't doubt that the U.S. spooks measure their computing power in acres so if it's important they'll crack it.
The article indirectly confirms spying at the backbone level via telco cooperation. A probable case can be made that RIM cooperates with the spooks anyway so secure client or not, the French are being practical and staying off a newish and very tempting looking grid.
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http://www.blackberry.com/solutions/government/se
an indication of what the French are doing (Score:2, Interesting)
Thieves fear theft, liars fear that others are lying, backstabbers fear backstabbing... and the French fear economic espionage. Hmmmm. I wonder what the French might be up to?
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At least, the French are not afraid of being tortured by their enemies. I wonder what the CIA might be up to, with its black flights and secret prisons?
Riiiight (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do the french have to be up to anything? If I get new deadbolts because I see my neighbour burying bodies in the backyard, it doesn't mean I have any bodies in my yard, it just means I don't want to end fertilizing his...
The French should know a thing or two about spying (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.iht.com/articles/1991/09/14/spy_.php [iht.com] - an article about this from 1991.
Re:The French should know a thing or two about spy (Score:3, Interesting)
odd that they seem to be doing a 180 and are now CONCERNED (?) with privacy?
I know they now allow pgp encryption for the citizens, but for a long time, hardware vendors that shipped encryption had to 'worry' about how to deal with the french. very bizarre...
France, of course, knows about this stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
I recall being told never to trust the shredders in French hotel rooms: they may have a scanner. Can't find that online, though.
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And they are right... (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I don't understand how/why these devices can be used by anyone, really, who cares for the privacy/secrets. The connection to your mail-server is not secured at all.
Even if device->RIM connection is secure (which is not certain, for they are using a proprietary protocol, AFAIK), you have to trust your privacy to RIM, a Canadian company foreign to most of its users.
Sure, they have a good incentive to keep your privacy, but it would be better still to just use an end-to-end secure connection directly to your servers (via IMAPS, for example). Devices capable of that are becoming available, and the wireless networks grow as well... RIM exploded in prominence because it did not use Internet Protocol and was able to deliver relatively light and power-efficient devices to do the job.
But technology is quickly eliminating that advantage — and the French may help create a better alternative, for a change.
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Can? (Score:2)
Yeah, but what am I thinking? We're talking about politicians and bureaucrats here.
The French government should worry (Score:2)
Mind you, wouldn't surprise me if this is just an excuse to subsidise a French company and have them build a network.
No surprises here (Score:5, Insightful)
If I were worried about security I wouldn't think twice about banning them, no matter what country the mail servers were in. That being said, our govt and I am sure the French govt have skiffs for the really higher classification stuff.
Patrik
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-Rick
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That is not the correct way to set up a BlackBerry in a corporate environment, sorry.
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A FANTASTIC development!! (Score:5, Insightful)
At the moment, it would appear that the US Government has been pushing onto US businesses to allow for this and other types of surveillance and snooping. Now businesses will have a clear example of why it is not in their interests to comply so readily. When the international market will no longer trust you or your business model because the US Federal Government is potentially encroaching, corrupting or otherwise tainting their bsuiness image, then there will be lobbying for less government interference with business.
I don't want to see lobbying affect government at all... don't get me wrong. That's where corruption largely begins and lives. But as long as this system is in place, at least now we can see where even those forces can be used against the current trends in government eroding our rights and privacy.
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blackberries banned (Score:2, Funny)
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why engage in economic war with France? (Score:3, Funny)
Two words: (Score:2)
Airbus.
Both are MASSIVE exporters, netting their home countries billions - largely because they're the biggest (and, for some products, the only) players in their industry.
Both are at each others throats. Both are trying to best each other. Both are targets of the intelligence service of the opposing country's intelligence community.
The French economy isn't exactly soaring lately, to be sure, but in this particular industry we want to keep a close eye on our competitors. Espionage, like internatio
Eh? (Score:4, Informative)
Although I don't doubt that the US government would would snoop on their network too if they could.
Ironic (Score:3, Funny)
How do you trust your computers? (Score:3, Insightful)
Build it yourself. Hardware and software. It kind of explains Bull [bull.com].
It is just realy and excuse (Score:5, Funny)
This might have been news 20 years ago (Score:2)
*reinforces his tinfoil hat with lead*
How secure are BlackBerries? (Score:2)
I am in need of evaluating the security of BlackBerries for my company.
For example, I can remember that on one security conference a few years back I was told that anyone back then could easily push a kernel module on the phone without any user interaction. But I can not find any references that back up thi
Crackberries are CANADIAN (Score:3, Informative)
RIM's push-email servers are in CANADA. Your precious "Stop for a hunk of cheese, bottle of wine, and loaf of stale bread on the way home from work (at 3pm)" text messages to one another go through a server in ONTARIO. Look it up on a map. I believe on the French version of the map (as required by French law, no less) it's called ONTARIO.
Linux :) (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, imagine if Windows Update pushed a reconnaissance-program to computers based on IP address before beginning other types of warfare. And conveniently I would imagine it would be difficult to detect the early stages of such an attack as Windows itself would no doubt have configured all the necessary permissions (firewall,...) while not reporting payload-activity. Eventually someone would notice that physical and audited network traffic don't match and then the jig-would-be-up. That's when you begin your land assault!
Cute weapons (Score:4, Funny)
In this case the French threw away a nice intel weapon in that they could have coordinated disinformation via their blackberries in an attempt to either disseminate fake information to the U.S. intentionally, or to detect the routes taken by info gleaned from the RIM network much as people make extra email addresses to track spammers.
The problem is, the politicians are only human, and these gadgets are just too darned cute to keep your fingers off 'em.
I wonder why RIM wouldn't be willing to offer the French government their own locally hosted servers.
Industrial Espionage in France (Score:4, Interesting)
So when the French are worried about economic espionage, we probably all should be.
Check the charter of the "French CIA" (Score:4, Informative)
The More You Know.
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Is there anything that's wrong with today's world, for which BushCo is not at least partly responsible? In your opinion?..
Thank you.
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Is there anything that's wrong with today's world, for which BushCo is not at least partly responsible? In your opinion?..
Thank you.
You know, were this this the story about the lake dissapearing, you'd have a point. But this is about a foreign nation worried that the US isn't trustworthy. A nation who, until fairly recently, we were best buds with ( politically speaking ). Who would you like to believe this was caused by? Toothfairy maybe? Santa?
Re:Fallout from current administration (Score:4, Informative)
Ok, so the only bad thing to have happened in recent years, for which BushCo is not at least partially responsible in your opinion, is the disappearance of a lake in Andes. Thanks! :-)
Read up on Echelon [wikipedia.org]... Hardly a Bush-time invention, but one for exactly the kind of espionage, that the French are concerned about.
Read up on the first President [wikipedia.org] of the France's current republic, and his nationalist (often anti-American [wikipedia.org]) stand. Whether the stand is justified or not, it the philosophy strongly influenced French government since then.
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I dislike the current administration, and agree that it has done harm to our foreign relations... But what has that got to do with this story? France's concerns are very valid - of course we're going to spy on them, we'd be crazy not to. Our government should be spying on pretty much every other nation out there. They'd be incredibly negligent if they weren't
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Keep in mind that most of us on this side of the pond aren't too enamoured with those things either. Wait, that was slanderous!
You'll be hearing from my lawyers.
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Bah, bb's [and smart phones] suck anyways. I'm so tired of whenever I catch up with the pals at the bar to have them all pull out their smart phones and show off how cool it is to read email while at the pub.
Re:Failed economic policy? Point the finger! (Score:4, Informative)
Except, of course, the former French President was also a Conservative, and had been in power for the past 15 years. ith disastrous economic results except when his Prime Minister was... a French Socialist.
Except, of course, that the fundamentals of the French economy -- except for unemployment -- are sound, and that the top 40 French companies -- some of which are #1 in the world in their respective fields -- have made so much profit, they have decided to distribute Billions of Euros to their shareholders [lesechos.fr].
And you, Sir, should focus on basic literacy and common sense, instead of indulging in your know-nothing French socialist bashing.
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It's a strange comment though, since the new French President, Nicolas Sarkozy, has spoke out against Free Software. Once you remove Free Software, that basically leaves you dependent on code you can't audit, supplied by US companies, which doesn't strike me as entirely consistent with this comment.
If the software is being used on a classified network, then the c