Dell Asking ATI For Better Linux Drivers 291
Open Source IT writes "According to a presentation at Ubuntu Live 2007, Dell is working on getting better ATI drivers for Linux for use in its Linux offerings. While it is not known whether the end product will end up as open source, with big businesses like Google and Dell now behind the push for better Linux graphics drivers, hopefully ATI will make the smart business decision and give customers what they want."
Nothing for you to see here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nothing for you to see here... (Score:5, Funny)
Or more to the point, has there ever been anything you could see WITH ATI's Linux drivers?
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I use to have a bit of respect when there was open source 3D accelerated drivers for some of the older Radeons, while nVidia had none, but right now, screw that. I just want the thing to work.
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Oh, I also see response emails from ATI that they don't support the Linux driver when I submit bugs using their bug submission package (which has all the support for selecting Linux).
I curse the ATI graphics card where I work daily.
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The only issues I've run across are sluggish compositing (ran into this when experimenting with a Mac OS X-lookalike [sourceforge.net] theme) and...hmm, I think that was it. While most of my computers are equipped with nVidia video, I have a workstation at work with a Radeon 9200 and a
Re:AMD *will* soon deliver open graphics drivers (Score:3, Funny)
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ATI Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
Beryl, XGL, Compiz, UT2003, Enemy Terrority, America's Army, all glass smooth and stable. I can run Beryl while playing high-def (1280p) x264 videos at the same time, too.
Still, better is better, and ATI's drivers do have some problems entering/leaving the console.
Re:ATI Linux (Score:5, Informative)
I've gotten the ATI drivers to install on my old Athlon XP box (9600XT), and Beryl worked for a while, but then after an update it didn't anymore and it stopped accelerating 3D. Nvidia's drivers Just Work, and so did the Intel 3D accel on my old laptop with 830 chipset.
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Can't say I ever tried Xinerama+beryl, but I have used multiple screen support. I don't use Dual Head often (use Dual Computer with Synergy instead), but when I do, I can drag playing video between the monitors in Linux without a problem.
The real problem with ATI's Linux drivers is that they are rather picky about your xorg.conf. I use Kubuntu, and I had to manually rip my xorg.conf to pieces and back to get it to the state it is in now. I can pastebin it later if anyone wants it. IIRC, I had to
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Aren't thos supported by the open-source driver?
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Plus the 'open-source' 9200 driver is a rat's nest of firmware.
Re:ATI Linux (Score:4, Informative)
I've checked with several people who have no clue what the problem is. I'm running Debian testing with fglrx 8.38.6. Yes, DRI is enabled and running. glxgears gives me ~900FPS.
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Dunno which ati drivers you were using. Fortunately I was only borrowing the card, and sw
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Your experiences with ATI are rather atypical. I have a Radeon X1400 that's half the speed of a Geforce 6600 in 3D apps [dyndns.org], 114x times slower than a Geforce 6600 in 2D apps [cchtml.com] and 15x times slower than a Radeon 7500 with the open source drivers in 2D apps [cchtml.com].
GPL or nothing (Score:3, Insightful)
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Though, I'm sure they would prefer to release it under something more like the GPL so that they can poach any changes back again (just like they are allowed too of course...).
Oh yeah. Completely. (Score:5, Insightful)
Totally. Unless, well... unless you want to some stuff that requires working, fast drivers. In that unlikely circumstance the drivers would be very useful.
When it comes to closed systems like video cards and their drivers, I think only a fool would turn up his nose at a binary simply because it doesn't come with source code. They should, of course, provide it for any GPL'd libraries they use.
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Nice attempt to dismiss arguments using invective. Perhaps you should read what Theo de Raadt has to say about the security implications of binary blobs.
When it comes to Theo, you might think he's an asshole, but if that's the case, then he's an assole who knows his shit.
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Re:Oh yeah. Completely. (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually I didn't notice I had done so. My apologies.
In my defense it slipped out because "fool" seemed like a description rather than an insult. People who need security above performance can use existing open drivers. Slow, but secure. People who require performance are more likely to be gamers or artists - but probably gamers. For them using a binary from a manufacturer is probably not verboten, or even a bad idea.
And somewhere in the middle is the guy who wants performance, hates binaries, and has to choose between his technology-based morality and his desire to make use of his fancy new hardware.
And dismissing a binary simply because it's a binary, without even considering where the best option lies, seems like a fool to me.
Good heavens! (Score:5, Insightful)
My english done gone busted itself all up inside.
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Sooner or later I just want the damn thing to work. The point the reply poster makes concerning security as per De Raadt is a valid one, but the other reply about being able to recompile and tune doesn't apply as easily with Nvidia drivers (hell, I recompiled them just last night with a 2.6.22.1 kernel).
Now if I can get Nvidia and Hauppauge working together properly, I'll be a happy man...
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hey. sounds like me ;)
but to be more precise, i don't hate binaries, i hate problems that come with closed source software - which is mostly drivers these days.
i am using nvidia driver on my box, but a complete opensource driver would be very nice. actually, i wouldn't have any problems moving to ati (that i dislike and avo
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The foolishness of binary-only anything (Score:3, Interesting)
When it comes to closed systems like video cards and their drivers, I think only a fool would turn up his nose at a binary simply because it doesn't come with source code.
Haven't learned our lesson regarding security or portability have we?
Popular binary drivers had some unresolved, severe exploits and couldn't be bothered to address them for about two years [rapid7.com]. That's just an anecdote, but illustrates that the problem is real and not just theoretical. Anecdotes aside, there are inherent problems with binary-only drivers (or binary-only anything). For the obtuse, the interview with Theo de Raadt [kerneltrap.org] interview with Jonathan Gray and Damien Bergamini [kerneltrap.org] go into more details.
I guess I'm a pragmatist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:GPL or nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
Just publish the source to whatever you have and see what the community makes of it. How could it possibly hurt?
Re:GPL or nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
Essentially, it is partly the case that graphics cards are hardware dongles for graphics libraries (drivers).
I would be nice if ATI released open source drivers, both for Linux and for Windows. However, none of the big graphics card manufacturers are likely to do that unless they believe that their own card can compete on a pure hardware basis alone. The fact that they don't do it, is evidence that these overpriced 3D watt-burning powerhogs aren't really all they are hyped up to be.
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At least, according to ESR's point of view (as espoused in 'The Cathedral and the Bazaar'.
He outlined several reason why a company _shouldn't_ open source its code. I can't recall them all in detail. But, if the value of those secret bits are sufficiently high, then ATI benefits more from closed source than open source.
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ATI used to produce a full spec for their cards. We should encourage them to return to that practice, because then we will have better computers. It's that simple.
If they instead want to produce hardware dongles for proprietary code, given what we know about h
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If which case, why are we paying so much for a video card ? Why don't we write a very good version of Mesa3D or something, so we can run $30 SiS cards and get the same performance as the $300 cards ?
Either way, whether the value is in the card or in the software, hiding things is not in the benefit of the consumer or the computer industry in general. If the hardware cards really are that good, let's see a full
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I think it's totally unrealistic for an open source proponents to expect / demand source code from a vendor who has their own reasons for keeping their code hidden.
I think a far more realistic and pragmatic approach would be for dis
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The problem with giving away driver source code is that it inhibit a company from being able to recover its research and development costs effectively because of the likelihood of somebody else figuring out the hardware interface specs from the driver and reverse engineering a compatible product for a fraction of the cost (because figuring out a way to do something that somebody else has already done is a lot easier than inventing the idea in the first place), and it would price the first company's product
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1) Everything in hardware, "stupid" interface with a trivial driver. Basicly any card that does all the interesting bits in hardware. There's essentially nothing to do and could easily be maintained by the OSS community.
2) Everything in software, "stupid" interface which relies almost entirely on the driver, release specs so others can try to emulate what the driver does, e.g. software RAID. Ba
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But that doesn't explain keeping the specifications closed. IME, that's a sign that the hardware is actually pretty sucky and it's only through minor miracles in the software that it works at all.
Useless? stupid zealots (Score:3, Interesting)
You people are all crazy about GPL/Open Source. "VIVA OPEN SOURCE WE WANT SOURCE CODES!". Seriously, how many *nix users contribute to OSS projects? How many contribute code? I bet a good bunch of people contribute because I've seen projects that have died and have been picked up by other developers to keep some applications alive so I won't deny the existence of contributors.
What I will say is that I would
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- more stability
- AIX support
- proper Xinerama support
- hardware end-of-life cycle when the user decides it, not when ATI decides it
I'm sure you can find a few on your own.
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Would you buy a car that had it's hood locked shut so that only authorized dealerships could open it?
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If the alternative was walking? Yes I'd buy it.
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Now if you mean at a higher level regarding my overall approach to OSS - hell yes. I'll take open source over proprietary any day. I really meant in this specific case, with ATI drivers, there isn't an alternative beyond basic vesa support (AFAIK, again I could be talking out my ass
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When the situation is that a game performs better on Linux than Windows using proprietary drivers from the same company and I'm talking about Nvidia, surely somewhere that company h
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No I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't insist the dealer give me the specifications so that I could make my own identical engine from scratch.
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Your opinion is that only open free code is of value.
However, in the real world, a lot of things won't get done unless someone is compensated in some way.
Over 45 years, I've seen that most people who declare things should be free do not contribute a bit of their time to help things be free. They want to be compensated for their time but they want to get everything free.
Given a choice between no driver and a closed driver that works and is installed as a binary object, I hav
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And how do you come to that conclusion? Personally I really could not care less if my drivers were open or closed just as long as they exist. Open might be preferable, but closed is just fine by me.
And I expect the same holds for a great many people who expect decent graphics performance out of Linux but don't want to wait the month of sunday's for either NVidia and/or ATI to consider their IP no longer
This may help a lot (Score:5, Insightful)
While Dell doesn't have a lot of fans on Slashdot, they may also be able to get a lot more hardware supported as well.
Strange bedfellows, but...
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Dell doesn't have fans on Slashdot, but I doubt they're doing that badly in Slashdot League Division 1, and they seem to be
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Beta Test 3 Systems (BTest-3, or B3)
This build, scheduled for May 2007, is the first to use an updated design for the laptop. Noticeable improvements over BTest-2 include:
* A faster, lower power processor: the Geode LX-700
o 64 KB I/64 KB D of L1 Cache, 128 KB of L2 Cache (vs. 32 KB of L1 cache)
Re:This may help a lot (Score:5, Insightful)
My immediate thought when I read the headline was, "And this is the answer to all those people who asked, 'Why should I care if Dell sells computers with Ubuntu?"
I remember when that story broke, and loads of people were saying, "I use Linux, but I'm not going to buy a Dell," or "Well I don't use Ubuntu, I use [insert distro here], so this doesn't help me!"
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Personally, I swore off Dell laptops a long time ago. But their support of Linux is what has changed my mind. For my next laptop purchase I intend to seriously consider Dell. Having the hardware pre-tested and known to function is a nice advantage which can save a lot of time in the buying process (and potentially even more time during the installation process if I don't have to fuss with tri
Acer Laptops and Linux (Score:2)
For those wondering, I'm using Ubuntu on a Acer Travelmate 4400, and yes, I've one through EVERY walkthrough for 3d Graphics. Everything else works. Graphics, wireless in
Ok (Score:2)
Not much to the article. I mean it's a given that Dell would want better drivers -- no one's going to buy a PC that they can't hook up to their favorite monitor and use right out of the box.
ATI just released new drivers (Score:5, Interesting)
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I really hope this pushes ATI to push feature development and improve their QA on the drivers so that performance and features are maintained between releases.
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So what? The Radeon Mobility with an R250 core is perfectly supported by the original xorg-driver "Radeon", including 3D accelaration. My old R51 with an Radeon 9200 could do GoogleEarth and Quake3 without problems.
However, my new laptop took me weeks to find, because I have sworn to NEVER again use any notebook with an ATI-card - and Thinkpads use these in most of their models. Finally found an SXGA+ T60 with Intel Chip.
No m
Endless hand wringing (Score:5, Insightful)
ATI Needs to produce better Linux drivers --> ATI announces they really like Linux --> ATI never produces drivers
keep exciting everyone enough to cause this constant hand wringing?
They are not going to ever really support Linux well. If that's not clear after 12 years of the above cycle, then you haven't been paying attention. Move on.. Get a board with an Intel integrated GPU if you want totally open. Get an Nvidia card if you don't care about open, but want working accelerated drivers.
If ATI does somehow produce open specs or drivers, great.. think about buying one then. In the mean time, vote with your dollars, buy something else.
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If anyone can get ATI to pony up working drivers for linux, it's DELL.
However, I'm still waiting for the fat lady to sing on this one
Re:Endless hand wringing (Score:4, Interesting)
It's working. It's not fast and good karma isn't the motivation, but it IS working.
ATI does produce drivers (Score:2)
ATI does produce drivers. The problem is, they don't release the source code so we can fix them and make them work without exposing ourselves to certain draconian laws.
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Normally I would agree, but you might be interested to hear that ATI has new owners [amd.com] and it is possible that these new owners will enforce a change in policy.
Now, even if such a change in policy is shouted from every rooftop I wouldn't recommend that any Linux user buys ATI/AMD graphics products until there is actual working drivers for them, but it isn't fair
M$ DRM and DX is what is keeping open drivers..... (Score:3, Interesting)
follow the leader (Score:2, Interesting)
When it comes down to it, as the underdog, AMD has the most to gain, and the least to lose, by open-sourci
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If wishes were horses...
ATI can't write ANY drivers (Score:3, Informative)
Legal restrictions (esp DRM?) (Score:2)
Various legal restrictions currently require that hardware does less than it is capable of.
With open drivers, the hardware could do everything- even if it broke the law.
I have a music player-- it won't let me copy songs off it to the hard drive.
OTH, if i take out the memory card and put it in a card reader, I can copy the songs off.
So the restriction on the music player is really stupid. But they did it anyway. Probably
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Message to Dell: Don't waste your time (Score:2)
I really don't care... (Score:2, Insightful)
1650 pro 512mb AGP cheap (no linux) (Score:5, Informative)
Yea ATI's drivers are great....
BTW I'll give it to any developer making a serious effort to write open source drivers. I'll even pay shipping.
About time.. (Score:2)
Should have seen it coming though when Dell started bundling Ubuntu with their systems. Since they have an outstanding contract with ATI/AMD, it's only good business sense to request improved drivers.
Any takers that Dell will be making the request that ATI improve their technical support for at least Ubuntu?
Linux Driver != Open Source Driver (Score:2, Informative)
The more a piece of software makes use of a certain OS's API and specific device control structure, the harder it is to make it portable. Everything to do with how the software interacts with the operating system, and optimizations made therein, have to be re-written, and linux has
ATI is behind NVidia (Score:2)
ATI Driver performance (Score:2)
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Good one! (Score:4, Funny)
It would be poetic justice if ATI put Dell on hold for an hour every time they called to check in on those drivers. Then transferred them to 3 different parties before cutting them off.
In fact, if ATI promises to do that I will forgive them for the OS/2 lies and bogus promises they made.
Re:Better drivers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Better drivers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Better drivers? (Score:5, Informative)
The NVidia driver update was a single
I've been a long time ATI user except for a single Geforce4 back in my gaming days. So long, and thanks for all the fish, ATI.
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The Nvidia driver might be admirably well-behaved, but don't forget that the real "Right Thing" would be for it to be released under a Free Software license so that it can simply be distributed with X.org to begin with, like the nv driver.
Holy gramatical error batman! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Holy gramatical error batman! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:It's hard to write drivers for a crap OS. (Score:5, Funny)