Google and Microsoft Help To Defend Fair Use 122
An anonymous reader writes "The Computer & Communications Industry Association filed a complaint this month with the FTC 'alleging that professional sports leagues, Hollywood studios, and book publishers were all using copyright notices that misrepresented the law'. That is, they were aggressively pursuing 'right' that they were not entitled to. Now a group, backed by companies like Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Sun, and Red Hat, has launched a web site called Defend Fair Use that shows they are serious about making the complaint stick. From the article: 'In contrast to copyright notices that take no account of fair use and claim control over "all accounts and descriptions" of a game, the CCIA offers a different copyright notice of its own. "We recognize that copyright law guarantees that you, as a member of the public, have certain legal rights," it says, "You may copy, distribute, prepare derivative works, reproduce, introduce into an electronic retrieval system, perform, and transmit portions of this publication provided that such use constitutes 'fair use' under copyright law, or is otherwise permitted by applicable law."'"
About... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Meanwhile, unsolicited commercial e-mails (spam) to unique addresses given only to 321 Studios have continued.
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Gee I... hope using that, and a copy of their site logo converted to GIF next to it linked back to their site, is considered by them to be fair use.
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Of course.... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Of course.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have the right to print a publicly distributed newspaper; however, I can't do that, because I don't own a printing press or the means to rent the use of one. Just because you have the legal right to do something doesn't mean you have the resources or tools to make good on that right. There is no logical conflict between a company defending a legal right for a customer to do something, while also failing to provide the technical means to exercise that right, or even placing technical hurdles to exercise it.
Nobody said it would be easy.
Re:Of course.... (Score:4, Insightful)
How is that not a conflict? They're countering their own defense of the right. I agree they have no obligation to provide the tools, but they intentionally (actively) cripple the tools they sell to prevent fair use. They spend money creating the hurdle. They also attempt to counter fair use rights in their own software licenses (i.e. legal hurdles on top of technical hurdles). Seems like a logical conflict to me.
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Not at all. Microsoft undoubtedly realizes that (as some other posters have noted) they themselves may only benefit from the fair use doctrine if it exists, perhaps to wiggle around the GPL for example, hence it must apply to everyone. Thus they would logically act to bring pressure so that the fair use doctrine remains intact.
However, it is not necessarily in their own best interest to make it easier for you to use their software to engage in activities that would traditionally fall under fair use, becau
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Consistent in that the actions both lead to more profit.
Hypocritical in the sense that the rhetoric they use to defend one set of actions contradicts the rhetoric they use to defend the other set of actions.
Microsoft's action are logically consistent, but their rhetoric is not. (Also known as being a liar.)
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Re:Of course.... (Score:5, Insightful)
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To the broader topic: That a company is not required to provide for your fair use is established law, true. Of course, that concept predates the DMCA. The DMCA takes
Re:Of course.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Educational & backup copies, of course. And of course, derivative works, for stuff that is open source to begin with.
Then again, I have to wonder why we treat software as similar to music and literature by placing it under copyright scope in the first place. If software needs a form of IP protection, copyright is the wrong fit, and fair use just makes that all the more evident.
That's strange, I'd argue exactly the opposite- that patents are a wrong fit, as evidenced by the LACK of fair use since software patents have been applied.
To the broader topic: That a company is not required to provide for your fair use is established law, true. Of course, that concept predates the DMCA. The DMCA takes us out of balance by introducing the infamous anti-circumvention clause. Under this clause, not only must I respect the rights of the copyright holder, so must any technology in which I traffic. Not so with fair use -- I can traffic in technology that tramples the consumer's fair use right (per prior law), but not in technology that might be used to trample the copyright (per the new law).
Correct. But also, given fair use (as predated the DMCA, which completely trampled fair use) the consumer's right to fair use should give them the ability to say, make an ISO file of any CD they own.
Most fair-use advocates assume that the best solution to restore balance is to elmiinate the anti-circumvention clause. This returns us to the world of yesterday, where the most technologically capable among us have exercisable fair use rights and the rest of the citizens don't; except that DRM schemes are ever more complex, resulting in an even higher technical barrier to entry into the world of the fair-use "haves".
True enough, though I'd argue that for the widest form of fair use (multiple copies supplied to a classroom for educational purposes) any reasonably well-funded school should be able to circumvent easily (by using nearly identical hardware, thus defeating the "license keyed to specific hardware" algorithm), and have done so for non-circumvention reasons (for ease of maintenance- every computer in a classroom should have identical and interchangeable parts).
But there's another way. Keep the anti-circumvention clause, but add a new clause. Make it illegal to traffic in technology that abridges fair use. If it's illegal to make tools that violate one right, make it illegal to create tools that violate either right. Restore balance. And at the same time, give everyone the ability to exercise their fair use rights, regardless of individual technical knowledge.
Interesting idea that- which would make Windows Genuine Advantage illegal tech....
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Another example is copies needed to actually use the software. Sure, there is such a provision in the US copyright law, but it seems to have a requirement of ownership of a copy of the work which many other countries lack. Cases were one is in a posessio of a copy in legal ways (yet not nessecarilly the owner) should not require special permission.
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I thought that's what the whole Educational thing was about- when teaching a class in a piece of software, that requires a CD key to run, then it's perfectly l
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Software does NOT fit patents because you can't patent an idea- software does not exist in the physical realm the same way hardware does.
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Funny, every literature class I've ever taken has attempted to do that- it's interesting how plot lines in relation to tension form bell curves. Even sentence structure, in most languages, has to follow formulae of grammar.
Logical, cynical. (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no logical conflict between a company defending a legal right for a customer to do something, while also failing to provide the technical means to exercise that right, or even placing technical hurdles to exercise it.
Yes there is a GIGANTIC logical conflict between defending a right and going out of your way to make it as hard as possible for someone to excercise that right.
If someone says that they defend my right of way, but place their car in my path so that I cannot proceed, I will not believe their statement, because actions speak louder than words and their deed is incompatible with their words.
And when a company who has invested their precious money into assuring that only geeks can enact their rights by using t
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I'm pretty sure Microsoft is well aware that simplifying their codebase will make it more stable. They just can't do it without stomping on the DMCA and pissing off several licensing authorities (MPEG-LA, AACS-LA, etc.). Thus they have a vested interest in relaxing the restrictions placed upon their system by the assholes in "big media".
1) Simplify Windows' codebase by removing copy-control shit
2) ???
3) Profit!!!
Even underpants g
Re:Of course.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft would be pleased as punch if customers could buy hi-def capture cards from Fry's that can plug into any computer and work with MCE. They would be giggling like school girls if a beige-box PC could record hi-def HBO without a set top box like Tivo. Google would be pleased as punch if you downloaded the show from them instead of used the hi-def capture card. Apple wants you to buy the latest "New Kids on the Block" single from their online store. RedHat wants all of the above to work on Linux.
All these companies are pissed because they cannot get access to the media their customers desire. While it may seem like all these companies, especially Microsoft, "support" DRM schemes, trust me they don't. Would you want to piss away a bunch of your developers time writing in crazy DRM crap that only keeps your company from innovating?
That can't be true... (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone *KNOWS* that Microsoft enjoys being evil precisely because they are evil! Or, at least, that is what people around here have told me. I have a feeling the people in Redmond drive into work like everyone else, but once they get into work, they start smiling. When they finally start working, they are chuckling to themselves: "Haha, its time to SCREW OVER THE WORLD! I can't wait to subtly break everything we've made, and inconvenience hundreds of thousands of users!" Because evil has this amazing ability to attract other forms of evil, thus allowing it to compound faster than one would expect, evil alliances are formed with alarming regularity: "Hmm, its Thursday, we should find a KKK club to sponsor since its been rather quiet this week." Naturally, everyone drives cool cars around the campus. Bill Gates is known to be able to fly, teleport, and destroy someone with a single thought of the mind. But few actually get close enough to him to observe these things, unfortunately.
I am sorry that this information is so long in coming. But I am glad I decided to post it on a site that is a beacon of truth, logic, and unbiased opinions.
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No thanks for making me snort my big mac (tm) out of my nose.
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Are you saying that all this DRM crap is stalling the development of Clippy 2?
SB
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If I had a few billion $$$ in the bank but I was short on good ideas... maybe I'd rather keep the developers busy writing crazy DRM crap than innovating for a competitor.
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Lets not even start with Google. Google (and netflix,
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Yes, I think that they are.
1. as a monopoly OS supplier, they can tell the media companies where to go.
2. DRM == proprietary lock in. While MS controlls the DRM dominant schemes, they can force people to buy MS products in order to access the content that MS has locked in.
The problem with your example of buying a hi-def card at Fry'
Google and Microsoft in it together? (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonders never cease. Nice work.
Re:Google and Microsoft in it together? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, Google and Microsoft working toget
Re:Google and Microsoft in it together? (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems that major sports leagues are given special legal status in general. For one, they're exempt from antitrust laws. (Not that I like anti-trust laws, but selectively enforcing them can be worse.) For another, they seem to have additional rights to the content of their games beyond what IP law normally grants. Like, if I watch a game and stream my commentary about it so people can listen as they watch with the official broadcast's sounds muted, I'd be shut down in a heartbeat. But if I did the same thing to the e.g. Kasparov/Deep Blue chess match, IBM couldn't stop me if they wanted to.
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True, and it does tend to Madden(c)(tm) one, doesn't it?
On a tangent type note, I think Mr. Vicks had the right idea, but instead of dogs he should
have used lawyers. Likely far more entertaining, just as bloody and who cares what the
result is...not like you'd get attached, eh?
I suppose they'll go after EA first...y'know to *coff*ahem*coff* "challenge everything".
Ok, I'm done with the digs/puns.
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Google's entire business is based upon fair use, so they have a stake in defending "reasonable" copying (fair use, indexing, etc.). Microsoft, however, have a business model that relies on people paying for copies of their copyrighted software. For instance, they make money when restrictions force a person to buy multiple copies of software. (E.g. lost your backup copy, it's illegal to download a copy off the
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Google and Microsoft both want to rule the internet search. If you can not store you can not search effectively. If you can not search you can not sell ads.
Google wants people to upload junk to YouTube and for you to download it along with the ads they put it in.
I doubt that Microsoft will push the record companies to drop DRM.
This is just enlightened self interest.
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Sounds good! (Score:1)
IANAL but that sure sounds a lot like "tape recording/ripping movies and putting them on the internet" to me.
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Of course, this doesn't take into account that the act of ripping the movies, (at least, from DVD) is a DMCA viol
Re: ... "provided that ..." (Score:2)
So, no luck there.
Except Microsoft is the 21st Century Enigma. Nothing they do is without sneaky intent.
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provided that such use constitutes 'fair use' under copyright law, or is otherwise permitted by applicable law."'"
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It is not ok to distribute it via an electronic retrieval system however.
This actually gets right to the root of the real problem we've been having...RIAA et al have been arguing that ANY copying/storing/ripping etc is illegal, when the law gives us the provision to do whatever the hell we want with them...for our own personal use. Just not distributing them.
This could go a long ways towards clearing things up and giving us back our legal rights.
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And once media servers become widely accepted, maybe we can stop worrying about crap
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Thanks to DVDDecrypter and AutoGK all my movies are sitting on a server and the DVDs are sitting in a box in the basement.
I plan to eventually set up such a media server as well, but... I like seeing the DVDs in their packaging. Part of what you're paying for is the artwork on that packaging and the printed inserts (if any). I like having that on display. Having scans and photos on screen isn't the same as being able to pet the head of a Planet of the Apes ape-bust, stare down a Cylon head, or have a DVD box set in the shape of a Police Box.
So my DVD collection is along three walls of my basement in enough rack space to ho
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That same one that made it illegal to copy your own dvd's because of the decryption method that was used.
While ""Fair Use" has been clearly defined for years(well before the dvd was in the picture), the RIAA, MPAA, and the DMCA have all done their best to squash that movement, god forbid you ever think of copying something you purchased.
Just to make things worse, they introduce HD
Is it? (Score:2)
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Yeah, terabyte media servers are cheaper and nicer every single day. And so easy to get, too. If you know where to look [chiefvalue.com], a pair of 500GB IDE drives will run you about $200. Throw those in an older computer [dfsdirectsales.com], make sure you've got plenty of cooling in the case, and top with a Linux distro [ubuntu.com] of some kind. For best results with a Windows client PC, get DVD43 [dvd43.com] and the latest Handbrake [m0k.org] to rip your collection. OSX just needs Handbrake, and Linux, I imagine, just needs dvd::rip [exit1.org].
It's a trick... (Score:4, Insightful)
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The enemy of my enemy is my enemy. (Score:5, Funny)
This is getting sooo interesting! *grabs some popcorn and enjoys the show*
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Re: More Reminders.... (Score:2)
I'm thinking Vince McMahon wants his hands on (Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Sun, and Red Hat) vs (Major League Baseball,RIAA,MPAA) wrestling match.
Celebrity Death Match!!! (Score:2)
History Repeats Itself (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:History Repeats Itself ... In six hours? (Score:3, Funny)
Didn't we decide this morning that Viacom has a shaky case for exactly this reason?
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Who?
ZOMG THE IRONY! (Score:4, Interesting)
Sorry, I'm just frustrated that I spent thousands on two MSDN subscriptions and have been trying to activate them for a week, and have spent over 115 minutes on the phone, with the last two calls assuring me with 100% certainty that the problem is now resolved, only to discover they are STILL not activated and I have to call them yet AGAIN. GRRRRRRRRR!!! This is why I run Linux for everything except for client projects. Ugh.
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For all of the organizing principles behind this cathedral, disagreements between what one sub-organization wants and what another sub-organization wants are bound to arise.
The people actually selling product, they want to retain ALL rights. This will allow them to generate more profit with 0 additional expense.
The people making the media player
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Hey! Why screw your clients over?
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However, I have been able to get a bunch of them to try and switch to OpenOffice from MS Office, and get clients who were previously "pirating" Acrobat Distiller to try a LEGAL free alternative -- PDF Creator.
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Autopackager seems(as far as I can work out from the generally biased information I've found) to be an issue of distribution rights as opposed to usage rights. Anyone is free to use Microsoft patches, they aren't allowed to set yourself up as a software mirror for them. This is a copyright issue, but it isn't as far as I can see an issue of
Copyright EVERYTHING and destroy it all! (Score:3, Funny)
Nobody would be allowed to do anything because they would be sued by people who wouldn't be allowed to sue!
Now that I think about it, such inability to enforce anything would be like having no copyrights at all. One end of the spectrum is exactly the same as the other. Too bad circles are copyrighted.
Maybe they can start with karaoke? (Score:3, Interesting)
Karaoke is about 10 years behind the music industry, we *just* started getting PC based karaoke systems rolling.
2 karaoke companies have decided that copying a karaoke disc to your PC isn't covered under fair use laws. Below are their press statements.
ANTI-PIRACY CAMPAIGN STATEMENT 12/28/06
Stellar Records in a collaborative effort with some of its clients,
customers, law enforcement agencies, and in some cases even its competitors has
stepped up its campaign against piracy. As part of this campaign, Stellar will be
directing much of its attention at the venue level and soon will be taking
steps to notify suspected venues as to the potential risks and hazards
involved when using unauthorized copies of Stellar Records products.
Stellar Records, its customers, clients as well as several of its legitimate
competitors have been damaged considerably through the illegal copying and
distribution of their products, as well as other acts of piracy, some of which
pertain to the violation of trademarks that are also the property of
Stellar Records.
Prior to pursuing any further action, we do recognize the possibility that
at least some venues may not be aware of these violations and may be engaging
in these activities unknowingly. Hopefully this communication will provide
the information necessary in helping to determine if the use of a Stellar
Records product is authorized, or in any way infringes on its copyrights and/or
trademarks. At the very least, we hope this will provide the impetus to seek
legal advice on these matters before continuing to engage in these practices.
To be more specific, it has been brought to our attention that there are
several venues in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area that have been promoting
karaoke shows which are using unauthorized copies of karaoke products either
directly through the use of in-house systems or vicariously through the
contracting or employment of KJ/DJ hosts and/or hosting companies. Some of these
products have been identified as karaoke products containing the copyrights and/or
trademarks of Stellar Records including products bearing the trademarks "
Pop Hits Monthly", "Top Hits Monthly", or "Stellar Records". In addition it
has been suggested that there could be other products containing Stellar
Records' copyrights and/or trademarks being illegally distributed, and an
investigation is currently under way in an effort to identify those products as well.
In order to assist those in determining what constitutes an unauthorized use
of Stellar Records' products, please be advised that Stellar does not
support nor does it have the authority to support (due to contractual limitations
in its licensing agreements with various publishers) any device which stores,
and/or plays karaoke products from a hard drive or any device other than a
device that plays directly from a CD+G disc. For example products include but
are not limited to the CAVS JB199 as well as the RSQ-500 when play back is
not directly from a CD+G disc. There are a number of software based products as
well like MTU's Hoster, PCDJ, CompuHost, TriceraSoft, Sax N Dotty Show
Hoster, and Dart just to mention a few, when play back is not directly from a
CD+G disc.
Stellar Records does empathize with the concerns of some of its customers
who may want to make copies of their legally purchased products for the
purposes of making back-ups or to rip them onto a hard drive in a more convenient
format. However we do not have the authority to grant anyone the right to do
so. Most if not all of our karaoke products contain the copyrights owned by
parties other than Stellar, namely the writers, authors and/or publishers of
the work (song) itself to which we must seek prior approval for use in
producing our final karaoke products. The licenses and/or approvals that we secure
from these publishers do not include the right to distribute t
That will last right up until somebody offers (Score:3, Interesting)
If I was asking them for a PRICE for their Karaoke CDs/DVDs to play in a PC based player, I bet that I'd be able to license it.
Companies fighting companies (Score:3, Insightful)
It's great, but a long way from anyone defending personal fair use. This is just corporations fighting over who gets to disseminate sports scores. In short, companies fighting over money. Just using fair use as the angle of attack.
Wake me when the megacorporations start fighting for my right to rip my CDs and play them on my MP3 player.
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Of course, I still can't figure out why MS cares about the entertainment industry. They would save a lot of money if they just said "Screw DRM it's not worth it." Let the entertainment industry deal with it.
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Fair use for people is in Googles and MS best interest.
How so? I could maybe see Google but have a hard time thinking of why MS would care about fair use rights. If anything, I would guess they would be doing their best to work against fair use, seeing as how they are currently partnered with the entertainment industry. The entertainment folks see fair use as a lost sale. If they can forbid you from ripping your CD to MP3, that means they can sell you the CD and then turn around and sell you the MP3
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2) XBOX
3) Zune
4) Windows Media Player
5) Hi-def hardware (capture cards, TV's, etc)
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Well, how do you think the entertainment industry will deal with it? Very probably they'll start with a big lawsuit, accusing MS of aiding and abetting the pirates, followed by a set of licences and/or technological attempts to disallow or make difficult the playback of DVDs and other media items on P
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which would fail.
"...followed by a set of licences and/or technological attempts to disallow or make difficult the playback of DVDs and other media items on PCs..."
which isn't possible.
But if they use a completely different technologyu, say cartiges, then fine. They can do that, bfd. Of course we both know it could still be put in a computer.
"Since MS wants to make things easiest for the not very sophisticated home user, they need to take the requiremen
microsoft v dreamworks... (Score:1)
Thats the gig !! (Score:2)
Enough with the website launches... (Score:1)
We can only hope (Score:2)
Nah.
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Could this be a reversal of Microsoft's prior stance on DRM, wherein they fellated the movie and music industries despite the consumer electronics industry being far larger and far more consumer-friendly?
Nah.
Speaking of DRM and the like...I'd be interested in hearing the official CCIA position on the consumers right to backup CDs and DVDs, especially given that the DMCA frequently seems void fair use in that case. It'd be really disappointing if their position was in support of fair use only when it doesn't violate the letter of the DCMA. That would be pretty hollow at best.
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The "consumer electronics industry"? You do realize that the HD-DVD and BR players that the "consumer electronics industry" sells implement the very same DRM that Vista does don't you?
Slashdotters are so damn ignorant.
This is interesting... (Score:1)
They appear to be taking a step in the right direction, until you take in to account that legislators go to the highest bidder... There is no question that M$ and Google have deep pockets and both company's lobby congress, its certainl
Is it just me... (Score:2)
Um... thanks, guys, and it's nice of you to say so publicly and all that, but I already had those rights, because the law said I had them. I don't need your say-so, or any corporation's. Just the law. Hard as it is to believe, the law is actually what gives us the right to do stuff, not your permission.
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The dollar is mightier than the rule of law.
Great! What's next? (Score:1)
It is time... (Score:1)
If this stands up in court... (Score:1)
The actual site (Score:1)
Take a look before you get too impressed (Score:1, Informative)
There's a link labelled "Tell us what you think" about fair use, overreaching copyright notices - but when you click it, the only option is to sign their pre-drafted petition. There's no way to actually convey your views. Much what you'd expect from these companies, really.
Then try reading the petition itself. Some idiot has failed to specify a proper charset for the web page, so it's peppered with weird characters.
Freakin' amateurs.
Not Protecting Fair Use For Everyone (Score:2)
Spell it out (Score:1)
The only way this is going to be solved is to spell out in very concrete, specific examples, what is clear fair u
For a link to the actual complaint (Score:2)
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"Provided that such use constitutes 'fair use' under copyright law, or is otherwise permitted by applicable law, you may copy, distribute, prepare derivative works, reproduce, introduce into an electronic retrieval system, perform, and transmit portions of this publication."
But I suspect any watered down language would take the negative approach to remain in good standing with the law...
"You may not copy, distribute, prepare derivative works, reproduce, introduce into an electronic ret
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"We recognize that copyright law guarantees that you, as a member of the public, have certain legal rights," it says, "You may copy, distribute, prepare derivative works, reproduce, introduce into an electronic retrieval system, perform, and transmit portions of this publication provided that such use constitutes 'fair use' under copyright law, or is otherwise permitted by applicable law."'"
and thus it means that schools can, for educational purposes, ru
Re:I may disagree with them, but I will defend the (Score:2)
I suspect data mining is the true ulterior motive for both Microsoft and Google. Its why they want to support fair use. Its in their interests, as they want to data mine everyone and any copyright rules can get in the way of exploiting other people's information (especially if any of that datamining was based in turn, on copyright information).
Both Microsoft and Google stand to gain from the public continuing to have access to fai
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In fact, here http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php ?id=18266 [upf.edu] is a sample of a 14-15khz wave. Do you really care what wave form that kind of sound is?
Re: the value of 15 khz sounds (Score:1)
A better example of what sound in the 14-15khz frequency range has to offer would be to take a recording of an orchestra and do an A/B comparison of the original recording, and a version of the recording where an equalizer has been used to minimize those frequencies. The orchestra would sound "duller." Even though the fundamental notes the individual instruments were playing were o