New Bill to Clarify Cellphone Contracts 177
theorem4 writes to tell us that US Senators today unveiled legislation designed to empower cell phone customers across the nation by providing more protections and guaranteed options. "The Cell Phone Consumer Empowerment Act of 2007 will require wireless service providers to share simple, clear information on their services and charges with customers before they enter into long-term contracts; a thirty-day window in which to exit a contract without early termination fees; and greater flexibility to exit contracts with services that don't meet their needs."
money (Score:5, Insightful)
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If someone is willing to pay an amount for any arbitrary level of service (or even no service), that amount can (and will) be charged.
Businesses will always charge the highest amount people are willing to pay. That's capitalism.
"Must"? "Deserve"? These terms have no meaning when it comes to the free market.
Re:money (Score:5, Insightful)
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Is there a monopoly for cell phones? What is the name of this monopoly carrier? Oh, there's more than one? And they compete against each other? Hmm.
I understand what you are saying, but there is no near-monopoly. It's not super expensive to get into the business band and set up a private repeater (a la, Cricket). I mean, sure, it's not hobbiest-level, but with minimal financial backing you could put a service up for your town, and then charge what
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No, they don't. How do you compete over customers who are locked into contracts? Cell phone carriers collude, and it doesn't matter if it's complicit or implicit collusion. Each carrier has its own brands of phones, which are built to be incompatible with each others' networks, so that means the cell phone manufacturers are in on the deal as well. Because of the contract-subsidized discounts (it's really usury in disguise) on the locked-in phones, they can and do over
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You could of course bitch about cellphone manufacturers not building multi-technology phones (GSM, CDMA, etc chipsets all in the same phone), but you'd have to take that up with the manufacturers, not the cellular network providers.
Random musing... I've wondered why the manufacturers haven't done that. Is it because the additional costs brought on by the non-compatible technologies would make the phone prices too high? Or could it be because they feel (or know) the carriers wouldn't sell them since they aren't locked to specific networks?
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Cell phone companies apparently obscure the terms of service and costs, and consumers end up being less than ideally informed. Competition in the cell phone industry is also limited since spectrum is a limited resource, and the barriers to entry are high.
For contract phones, the companies tend to compete on features rather than costs, for example number of minutes, "friends and family." For the market segment of consumers that are c
Re:money, crime is wrong, but maybe legal (Score:2)
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Capitalism is market governed.
Dogma is irrational emotional doctrine of cult/sect followers.
So, capitalism cannot be dogma, but dogmatist can preach pseudo-capitalism as capitalism to faithful followers.
Capitalism as an economic institution (model/architecture implemented) in a society/country is neither good or bad.
Capitalism when market governed is a reasonable industrial age economics model (best, ?IDK?).
Capitalism does not exist in a corporatist/plutocrat controlled total
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"Must"? "Deserve"? These terms have no meaning when it comes to the free market.
Sure they do. A seller MUST represent the product honestly and the customer deserves to get what he paid for. That is also part of the free market and its enforcement is generally the one government intervention in the market that is generally accepted as a good idea.
In an age where so many cell providers routinely tack on unpredictable surcharges (you only find out about them on the first bill), lie about coverage, make a
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And if you are paying for cell service, you are contributing to this "problem". If it's still worth it to you to pay these prices for these services, then you are getting what you pay for.
If it isn't, cancel. Go without. A cell phone is not a NEED. FOOD is a need; a cell phone is a WANT.
For the record, two companies don't have to engage in collusion to screw you over on prices. It is entirely likely that they are both trying to screw you on prices indep
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Yeah unless your job involves them. You won't be paying directly but since your job pays for them they get money anyway.
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Agreed, except that being in a contract prevents this (or forces you to pay stiff penalties). Requiring more transparency in contracts and giving customers more options to cancel when the service doesn't meet their needs/expectations is fine by me.
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Try that with ATT.
Call them up and tell them you already have a suitable phone and you want month to month service with no 2 year contract.
NOPE. Not available. Even without a phone subsidy. Except on a really overpriced prepaid service, that it.
I asked them what the 2 year contract was for if I wasn't getting a free or disco
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For example, China Mobile charges $.02/minute voice, $.01/text, and $.01/3KB. They also have package plans that work by deducting a set amount monthly from your prepaid account. I have one that gives me 20 minutes a
Why even that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Many negative factors about the US cell phone system rely on the lengthy contracts or are caused by them: the US gets only the crappy phones the carriers choose to offer and not all the exciting phones sold in europe and japan, because in the US the carriers sell all the phones, because it's the excuse for the lengthy contracts. Indeed, the only really innovative phone to come along in the US is the iPhone, and even that is contractually tied to a single carrier. Also, in the US we have less technological advancement in the network itself because the carriers know you're locked in and can only use the phones they select, so they have less incentive to upgrade because you can't leave them and there's little competition if you could. Further, all the carriers have reputations for poor customer service and network reliability issues in some locations, and frankly they're also all reputed to not care very much, because they know that any customer churn they suffer will be replaced by incoming competitors fleeing the exact same problems from their "competitors".
If we eliminated the lengthy contracts, cell companies would lose their incentive to offer discounts on phones, and would likely choose to start charging full price for phones. This would likely result in a competitive market for equipment arising, resulting in more consumer choice. Further, carriers would then have to directly compete on plan prices and services, resulting in more consumer choice on plans, likely lower prices, and probably also the companies improving their network speed in an effort to actually compete with each other for a change. And of course, they'd have to start giving a damn about dropped calls instead of just blaming the customer, because the customer can actually drop them on the spot and go to someone else until they find someone who can actually give them reliable service.
So, I intend to write to my senators and tell them that if they really want to do any good in the cellular phone market, they should ban all cell phone contracts... or at least, ban all fees for breaking the contract, which would have essentially the same effect.
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So,
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Because unlike a land line, these days you most likely get a phone in the deal. The expense has to be covered. If you own your phone free and clear, I agree. Otherwise, they hav
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That is of course, completely incorrect. Everybody has the right to make money when both parties agree to the terms up front. If you don't want him to make money, don't give him the right by signing the contract.
Is this, "I have no common sense or business knowledge day" on Slashdot or what? Shesh.
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And if I want out, why can't I just pay off the difference between the amount they have recouped and the discount they gave me on the phone? Why do I have to pay an outrageous fee (which is probably more than they paid for the phone in the first place) instead?
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Because of the obvious answer, people are stupid. For years they moved away from contracts but the consumer pissed their pants waiting in lines to sign back up for stupid contracts. You're a victim of being surrounded by morons.
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The phones are either subsidized very little or not at all. Walk into any Sprint store, how much do you think it costs to make those phones? Not the $180 or $249 they are trying to charge. Not even $30 for most.
The problem is the only place you can get a phone is from the carrier, the carriers keep a stranglehold on the equipment, and *pretend* they are subsidizing your phone.
The *free phone* is re
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Next, just wave your hand and admit you have no clue. You really think they can make a phone for $4? $6? Sure they abuse their position with their customers...but that hardly means they can magically make products for a small percentage of what the raw materials cost while completely ignoring the cost of design, software creation, testing, certification, packaging, training, documentation, and distribution.
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Next, just wave your hand and admit you have no clue. You really think they can make a phone for $4? $6? Sure they abuse their position with their customers...but that hardly means they can magically make products for a small percentage of what the raw materials cost while completely ignoring the cost of design, software creation, testing, certification, packaging, training, documentation, and distribution. He
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I'm actually not. Since most people buy their phones from their carrier, your making a distinction which doesn't matter. My point still stands so I'm really not sure why it was mentioned.
They rest of your message, I really have no idea where it's coming from because it has nothing to do with imaginary $4 and $6 dollar phones. Like it or not, phones are computers which requir
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We're in complete agreement then. Most phones cost $20-$40. I said $30, with an actual manufacturer cost of about $4 or $6.
This doesn't explain why phones priced at $180-$500 but they will give you a fake discount if you sign a 2 year contract is good for you or me. It's good for the carrier, sure. But it's not good for customers or the phone manufacturer.
The system has become distorted by the phones being only av
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This is completely untrue. Most phones in the US cost a hundred dollars on up to make, which ignores packaging, training, support, software development, certification, and distribution. Most phones are not disposable phones, especially when you look at phones used in other, non-US markets (Japan, Korea, Canada, most of Europe, etc). Disposable phones actually target a small percentage of the population but are espec
Re:Why even that? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to disagree with you. Contracts should not be banned. Some people even like those. They can get a new phone every couple years without paying a lot up front. These are the same people that lease cars and trade up every 2 or 3 years.
Cell phone contracts used to be the only way the majority of people could afford a cell phone. This practice emerged from the days of mobile phones before cellular technology, which existed at least as far back as the 1950's although I don't know what all the terms were then. The first one I ever saw even used tubes (not transistors) inside a pair of large boxes installed in the trunk of a car. When cellular technology emerged, the phones were still fairly large and also expensive due to lack of economy of scale. That, of course, eventually changed.
The problem is, of course, the cell phone service providers still like the term contracts for many reasons I'm sure you are aware of. They try to make it hard for people to get phone service, or even phones, any other way.
But you can buy an unlocked cell phone even in the USA, and then sign up with the carrier of your choice. A friend of mine who works for a major cell phone service provider based on GSM [wikipedia.org] technology in the customer service inbound call center has told me that a fraction of a percent of customers are in fact monthly no-term customers using unlocked phones. They are trained not to offer such services, but do know how to sign people up if someone wants it. He also told me that it is a full price service that way, about as costly as a pre-paid phone.
You can find unlocked phones easily. For example at Amazon.Com, look at the left side of the home page under "Consumer Electronics" and click on that link. From that page of cell phones, on the left side find a whole subsection of links for unlocked phones. Be sure you get 850/1900 MHz phones for use in the USA and a few other countries in the Americas. If you want a phone good for international use, get a triband (850/1800/1900 for both USA bands) or quadband phone.
These phones are apparently overseas phones that may or may not come with a USA warranty. That's one of the problems in the USA is that the manufacturers are not selling directly to retailers here that I can find. It could help if we get wording added to this law change that requires the manufacturers to make their phones available to resellers that want to sell them a full price as no contract unlocked phones. Then people can have a choice.
Some other places to look for unlocked phones are here [cellular-blowout.com], here [puremobile.com], here [ustronics.com], here [cellhut.com], and here [cellularcountry.com].
Interesting contradiction... (Score:2)
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I still stand by my position that the term contracts should not be banned. Instead, the phone companies should be required to divulge that alternatives exist. And manufacturers need to be required to make the phones available to domestic resellers under standand warranty sale.
I don't want to take away one particular method of purchase. While that might speed up getting decent phone service for those that hate contracts (I being one of them), I'm opposed to the idea of taking away an option some people w
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They would just make it unpleasant and expensive enough to get a phone without a contract that it wouldn't matter for most people.
And manufacturers need to be required to make the phones available to domestic resellers under standand warranty sale.
It wold be more useful to make limitations on any warranties (or other restrictions on purchase or use) based on the country violations of free trade agreements.
But that kind of *co
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I would say a better option is to require all phones to come unlocked and use sim cards. Even a customer that is happy in a long term contract may have good reason to want to use it on more than one account, for example, a work account on weekdays and put the personal simcard in on nights and weekends. A customer that wants the cheap or free phone is free to enter into a long-term contract to get it. Customers that want to keep their old phone are free to do so with the sim card. Carriers should be required
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Agreed. To achieve this, though, you have to be more subtle. Pass a law that says that the bill must clearly spell out the portion of the bill that is amortizing the cost of the phone over the contract period, and mandate that the monthly cost be reduced by that amount after the initial contract period unless the customer explicitly requests and receives a new phone.
Such a law would force the actual cost of the phone to be more obvious to the consumer and would cause a huge shift away from subsidized ph
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People like paying a small monthly fee instead of a single "large" payment, News at 11. Leasing a car is a pretty bad analogy for a start most people don't get them that way, opting for 3-6 year loans (an option not really available with cell phones). This is more like
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They once were expensive, which is how it got started. It's just that the service providers aren't passing on all the savings
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My current cell service provider offers free phones of comparable value to the sign-up model with each contract renewal - 1 year for low-end phone, 2 years for mid-range and 3 years for high-end. Open by-the-month contracts cost between $5 and $10 extra per month and you get neither subsidized phones
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While my $10 prepaid plan is only 30 minutes, the unused part does carry over to the next month and I have all the services. My carrier also has $15 unlimited night&weekend and $20 unlimited incoming plans if I needed them. In all cases, unused package time carries over.
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You don't have to accept any terms you don't like. So what you are asking is, "why should I be allowed to accept bad terms?" And the answer is that you are a responsible adult who can make their own decisions. You don't need anyone else to protect you from your own stupidity because you aren't stupid.
If you want to accept some level of lock-in in exchange for a lower price, why should someone else prevent you from doing so?
That said
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When a customer gets a phone for $0 with a 3 year contract, they're paying for that phone, in full: it raises the cost of the service. The cell companies are not financially incompetent. If they "give" you a phone, they're going to make sure their rate plan is correspondingly higher to ensure that they recoup that cost. And further, once they have recouped that cost, they're not going to lower the p
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The first thing that needs to be done
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Unfortunately, they use CDMA, which puts them out of touch with almost the entire world. Thus, you either end up with phones that can't be used outside the U.S. or you have to have two separate hardware radios---one for CDMA in the U.S., and one for GSM anywhere else on the planet.
Good! (Score:4, Informative)
So far, every plan I've seen is incomprehensible or misleading. Or both. As soon as I find a reasonable, understandable plan, I'll jump at it.
Still looking...
Re:Good! (Score:4, Interesting)
None of these were due to the contract. These were all due to crappy business practices and nothing else.
There shouldn't be anything *deceiving* in a phone bill. I can certainly agree with that. But I don't see why they should be legally bound to make a phone bill read at a fifth grade level like the daily newspaper.
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There shouldn't be anything *deceiving* in a phone bill. I can certainly agree with that. But I don't see why they should be legally bound to make a phone bill read at a fifth grade level like the daily newspaper.
The clearer and simpler the bill must be the harder it is to sweep the many errors under the rug. Complexity is sometimes used as a tool to commit "deception in plain sight". Considering that there's nothing in a cellphone bill that should require more than a 5th grade education to understand,
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$51/month.... (whistles). In Japan I was on the White Plan. [softbank.jp] What is that now, $9/month? Less?
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In other words, they are presenting as fees things that should have been folded into the advertised price.
As an analogy, you wouldn't expect McDonald's to advertise "99
Advice Requested (Score:2)
Wrong crowd... (Score:2)
You mention that you are on a pay as you go plan. I looked up the various roaming charges while in the United States for you:
Rogers Pay as You Go and Fido pre-paid:
Calls Back to Canada from the U.S. $2.49 per minute
Calls within the U.S. while in the U.S. (local and long distance calls) $2.49 per minute
Incoming call
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I was hoping for some feedback/personal experience from Canadians that have roamed in the US. There m
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I know it's Saturday AM, but now (I just tried three times) I'm getting bounced around from automated service to automated service only to find out that "our offices are open Mond...".
Why didn't they just
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Disclaimer:
I do not use/own, or have in my presence a cell phone- I do not really know Jack about this subject, but was just curious.
Hhmm?...There are the 'buy some minutes' type solutions for most of the mainstream service providers...ie: AT&T, NetZero, Xingular, etc... at least in Oklahoma...If we have it, surely it is already thriving everywhe
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I hope to get to OK someday, we Canucks hear about these places but never visit them. Even though we know more about you than you know about us the US is still interesting. Stereotypes abound eh.
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I have no idea how it works in Canada/USA. But I can tell you that in Europe, you have to very careful if you have an answering service in your
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It doesn't even make sense - if your phone is off it isn't even on the network so there's nowhere for it to route.. the have no idea what country you're in.
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Of course it makes sense. Otherwise I would not have written it.
The phone will be "registered" to the network it was last connected to. So all calls go to that network, also when it is switched off.
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You know what I want? (Score:5, Interesting)
I want a $39.95 plan to actually cost $39.95. As in, that's the number at the bottom of the bill that I have to pay each month.
I don't want to pay "regulatory surcharges" or "cost recovery fees" or anything else that isn't included in the advertised price. And this goes for all these sorts of contracts, not just cell phones.
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I used to think that as well, until recently when I started burning over 1000 minutes per month, and don't consider myself a phone junkie. 1200 minutes per month is about 40 minutes per day; if your cellphone is your only line, your usage will add up fast, esp. if your family and friends don't use instant messaging.
Much like a nickel here and a dime there adds up to real money over time, cell phone use does the same thing.
Re:You know what I want? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wrong (Score:2)
Novel Idea (Score:2, Insightful)
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Hallelujah (Score:1)
That's the problem with the buyer beware libertarian crowd. What if the buyer is not a trained lawyer and does not understand every small print clause in every contract fo
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Fraud is against libertarian principles. "Buyer beware" is not a libertarian maxim. The situation you describe, the convoluted contracts and small print, is contrary to libertarian ideals.
Just fyi. [wikipedia.org]
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But that's not the real problem. The real reason that the US cellphone market SUCKS is the
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This is the problem with early termination fees. They are exactly priced to ensure that the cellular provider doesn't suffer a loss. That's perfectly fine and reasonable for people who take subsidized phones. However, when I bring my own phone to a provider and pay an activation fee (which would be waived if I bought a phone from them), and THEN they still try to cha
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hopefully (Score:2)
Seriously, can you think of any other service industry like this? power, cable, phone, trash pickup, isp, hosting provider, magazine subscription, ...
Sure, sometimes you'll see a special rate that only applies if you continue the service for a fixed period, but why is that you cannot get cell service at all without the contract? (Well, I suppose there are those shitty prepaid networks.)
Something is completely flawed with the whole s
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In DC, an ACT always means the opposite (Score:1, Interesting)
The Patriot Act took away things the patriots fought for, the tax freedom act put in more restraints and took away freedoms, and so on. If they had a "Save the babies act" it would probably involve NOT saving them. Seriously, it's THAT bad.
So when you hear about some new act, assume it's out to get you somehow and respond accordingly.
What prompted this legislation? (Score:1)
Regulate the Business (Score:2)
Nothing will become of this (Score:2)
Why only cell-phone contracts? (Score:2)
How about a REAL bill? (Score:3, Interesting)
How about exclusive contracts cell manufacturers and service providers illegal?
How about we make disabling features on the cell phone you paid for unless you ransom it back from your service provider illegal? (Verizon Bluetooth OBEX transfer, anyone? Using your phone as a DUN connection for your laptop?)
The reason the North American cell industry sucks so much is because manufacturers and service providers are working too closely together and nerfing our phones for the purpose of shaking more change out of our pockets. Implementing the above would bring us in line with how everyone else in the world does things. The bill in TFA is a joke. Congress is stroking it, as usual.
Re:They need to ban locked phones like in some pla (Score:2)
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What it is not is an efficient market (which is what I think you meant).
More regulation could make it more efficient, but less free.
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Anybody here remember when AT&T was forced to allow its customers to buy their own equipment and attach it to the landline network? What do you supposed happened? That's right, the cost of the terminal equipment plunged, and the variety of devices offered increased, as new competitors entered the market. Why the same logic doesn't apply to the regulation of cell phones escapes me.
All I need