Microsoft Loses EU Anti-Trust Appeal 322
Kugrian writes "Microsoft has lost its appeal against a record 497m euro (£343m; $690m) fine imposed by the European Commission in a long-running competition dispute. The European Court of First Instance upheld the ruling that Microsoft had abused its dominant market position."
This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
The biggest problem is that it took 10 years to get to this point, and Microsoft still hasn't disclosed the specs for how to make interoperable products. We're fortunate that the Free Software way of doing things is rebost enough to survive in spite of this, but profit-oriented companies simply can't hold out long enough for this kind of legal system to really help.
What we need is clear legal rules that vendors with dominant market positions must adhere to genuinely open standards for all protocols and document formats, and of course we also need a genuinely non-corrupt standardization organization [openiso.org] Microsoft doesn't sell us something as an "open standard" which really isn't.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no problem even in that case. There are close to a billion computers right now; and Microsoft software runs on well over 80% of them all. So what if they weren't a monopoly 20 years ago? The protocols in use RIGHT NOW must be open for public access.
By any yardstick, it is very clear that Microsoft IS A MONOPLY in the massive worlwide PC market.
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
It is also clear that they maintain their monopoly by abusive practices and that the US government doesn't do anything to fix this. See the outcome of the microsoft US trial.
So it's now clear that microsoft is used as a leverage by the us government and other governments have to step in and protect themselves. Which is happening.
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Interesting)
Though I do wonder what level of fine it would take for Microsoft to really change it's way of doing things instead of just making whatever paltry change the regulatory body required (like selling a version of Windows that probably no one is going to buy without IE bundled in).
I wonder because even after some pretty hefty fines in the past they seem to have changed direction very little as a company.
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you can't do that anymore. Liberals may not win any elections, but they sure won one part of the "small, powerless government" agenda, and it ain't the "small" one. There's very little a government can do nowadays about large corporations. The problem, as others have pointed out, is that the justice system just takes too damn long. If a corporation can afford the fine, it can afford to simply wait out, because by the time the judgement comes down, it'll be mostly meaningless.
So fines don't cut it, unless you go to extremes like in my first sentence.
You need something equivalent to what we consider totally normal if the criminal is an individual: Lock him up during the trial, so he can't kill/rape/rob someone else in the meantime.
If MS were in danger of being shut down until the case is closed, I'm pretty sure they would be much more enthusiastic of following what's essentially their probation conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Um... at the risk of hijacking a perfectly good discussion of antitrust into a "liberals vs conservatives" argument, the sentence I quoted gave me pause. Are you suggesting that a traditionally liberal argument is for powerless government? Because I don't know anyone of any political stripe who perceives "small, powerless government" as a "liberal" value.
I mean, unless you
Thomas Jefferson (Score:3, Informative)
I finally decided short of taxing 100% of wealth over about 10 million dollars (to keep us a jeffersonian democracy of many tiny wealthy people), that it just isn't going to happen. I'm beginning to think that the corporate structure is fundamentally flawed and will inevitably lead to aristocracy.
What's flawed is government's treatment of corporations. Like Thomas Jefferson warned of a Corporate Aristocracy has arisen which uses government for it's own advantage. Corporations were originally granted
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But the big winner is still microsoft of course, no way the fine undoes the years taking advantage.
I guess the software / IT market is still growing up slowly / steadily & things like this were bound to happen.
Let's hope it never has to come to that again.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe it won't matter a lot in another 10. Microsoft has abandoned its own back compat with Vista in many places and the businesses are denying Vista transition.
In fact I've been in contact and read/heard plenty of opinions of private users, small and big businesses, government employees and they all don't want anything to do with Vista (which is increasing
Re: This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:3, Interesting)
What good is it they fined them nearly a billion. Will this help us somehow.
(To begin with, let me tell you about a friend of mine: Mr. Question Mark [penny-arcade.com]. He's happy to help whenever you have a sentence phrased like a question.)
However, maybe it is good that they fined them nearly a billion. I, too, doubt that that alone will make much of a dent in Microsoft's budget, but maybe it sets a precedent, and other nations may start doing the same. South Korea, for instance, springs to mind. One billion dollar fine might not make much, but if a large enough number other nations start finin
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The EU and US courts say you are wrong. Sorry. The legal definition (which is the only relevant one in this discussion) is not quite the same as the classical dictionary version you hold on to. From a legal standpoint you do NOT need 100% of the market to be a monopoly.
we want the ability to order our machines with XP.
You have that now. You can order XP based machines from every major vendor.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
OMFG, I just can't let this stand. I don't know if you know this or not, but you're full of crap. I almost hope you're being malicious and not just ignorant. I'm running Vista Business X64 on an original pentium d
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You for
Re:This isn't justice: too little, too late (Score:5, Funny)
Wait a second. You're telling me that your OS can handle 17 idle processes and one active one when they all fit in RAM? That's amazing. Or at least it would have been in 1972...
Re: (Score:2)
Offerin
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wait... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's very simple - you pay about USD$8 to distribute a print server [microsoft.com], or you are violating MS's patents and liable to be sued.
The largest monopolist in hi
Least important part of the judgement... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of more significance is the fact that MS will be forced to release more code to allow competitors to compete on a level playing field with MS applications...
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Least important part of the judgement... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Here is the full EC ruling of 2004: Commission Decision of 24.03.2004 relating to a proceeding under Article 82 of the EC Treaty (Case COMP/C-3/37.792 Microsoft) [europa.eu]. It contains all the reasoning behind the decision in surprisingly non-legalese English, as well as the decision itself on page 299--301:
Microsoft lost its appeal? (Score:5, Funny)
Damages, but sanctions? (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean $690 million is almost a rounding error at Microsoft.
Re: (Score:2)
Has Microsoft started bundling monitors and keyboards with their OSes?
Jus' kidding!!
Re:Damages, but sanctions? (Score:5, Informative)
The fines will increase (exponentially I believe) until they pay. The court can freeze and seize their European assets and they have much of their money within the EU in Ireland as a US tax dodge. Also, the EU is by far MS's largest market. Not complying would be a BAD idea.
BTW, the legal detail is over at Groklaw [groklaw.net] (basically the court sided with the EC except a minor point about the EC giving too much power to the MS appointed monitoring trustee) and there is a joint FSFE/Samba press release [fsfeurope.org]. Also, the the court published the full judgement and other court docs [europa.eu].
Re: (Score:2)
Typically there is pre-judgment interest (say, around 4%), and post-judgment interest (say, around 8%) on the judgment.
The court can seize assets as well, but typically in extreme circumstances, for example if there is a risk of flight.
Re: (Score:2)
Go Samba (Score:5, Interesting)
P.S. Shamless plug, I ranted a lot about this on my own site [commandline.org.uk]
Re: (Score:2)
We get it. But how
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Let's just hope that Microsoft doesn't decide to get a little medieval (or litigious) and throw up a bunch of lawsuits to stop Samba's blatant infringement
Where do people get stupid ideas like that from?
... because in order to get a patent one must reveal how an invention works.
Microsoft networking is an obscured version of the SMB protocol. SMB is IBM's invention, not Microsoft's.
Microsoft obscured IBM's SMB protocol into Windows networking after Microsoft had gained a dominant market share. Microsoft has no patent about that obscuration
Samba infringes nothing. Samba is just another implementation of IBM's SMB protocol, obscured in the same trade-secret wa
Court's press realease (Score:5, Informative)
They have not yet paid another fine that was imposed on them for not paying this fine, as the BBC article mentions, although in no great depth:
It's not about fines, it's about Samba and freesw (Score:5, Interesting)
The important thing is that when MS eventually publish their specs, they will not be allowed exclude free software from using them.
This is what FSFE and Samba have been working for since 2001, not fines.
http://fsfeurope.org/projects/ms-vs-eu/ [fsfeurope.org]
Re:It's not about fines, it's about Samba and free (Score:2)
IOW, Microsoft will publish full specifications - just as soon as they're sure that doing so wouldn't cause anyone to choose Samba over Windows for a fileserver because hardly anyone's setting up a Windows box as a straight fileserver any more.
legislating market share? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:legislating market share? (Score:5, Insightful)
You argument seems to stem from the misbelief that Operating System software is a competitive market and that Microsoft got to 90% by competing fairly. If so then you would be very wrong.
If you read today's judgement [europa.eu], you will see that Microsoft has regularly abused its' position by bundling, threats, bribes, agreements with OEMs and so on.
Operating Systems is not a competitive market at all, if you use Linux then you will know that the biggest problem is not Windows itself but the fact that it is so dominant. As soon as you use Linux you find that shops, ISPs, firms, manufacturers and so on treat you as a second class citizen. This needs to be broken for the social good.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Where did you get this information? (Score:2)
Until you do, how are we to regard this claim as anything but random noise at best?
Ok, (Score:2)
An independent link seems to be: http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070917/3/37zv8.html [yahoo.com]
The quote from Neelie Kroes really is extremely dubious at first sight, but the follow-up comment by her spokesman makes more sense. From what I've read on her here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neelie_Kroes), the last thing one could say of mrs. Kroes is that she is a socialist, or even a crypto-socialist who delights in bashing successful companies.
I suspect that this comment is based on ordinary econom
The problem with monetary judgements (Score:2, Insightful)
Fining Microsoft is much the same case, it means nothing. Barely a blip on their radar. You want to really penalize them, start trustbusting. "Oh, I'm sorry Microsoft, you cannot sell your OS withi
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, that's capitalism for you. If you don't like it, move to a different country. I would suggest a communist state, where such problems never occur [wikipedia.org].
<insert "soviet russia" joke here>
Alternatively,
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A more effective deterrent might be to rule that repeat offenders' lawns receive a complementary treatment with Roundup courtesy of the local public works department.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The fines should be large enough to compensate for his waste. If they aren't then they should be increased until they are.
The money from the fines should be used to improve the infrastructure, like waste treatment or desalination plants.
Same goes for MS: The fines should be large enough to compensate for the damage MS is causing and used to repair it. The fines should be large enough that the benefit MS obtains by continuing their behavior is smaller th
Re: (Score:2)
This is taking a very jaded view (Score:2)
That court just upheld the EU commission's view that Microsoft violated EU fair competition laws. It *publicly* told Microsoft that it was dead wrong in its views that it had (a) not violated fair-competition laws, and (b) that it had done enough to comply with the EU Commission's demand for interoperability information.
No international company (like Microsoft) can afford to shrug that off. Why? Because *every* single government out ther
I still don't like it. (Score:5, Interesting)
What I would really like to see is that the customers of MSFT see that it is in their best interest in having an alternative to MSFT in the desktop, server, office documentation products arena that will benefit by perfect 100% compatible interoperability. No customer would buy a Samsung TV that can play only Samsung DVD player. But why these corporations don't demand such compatibility?
One answer is that, MSFT tax is not very big. Just 40 billion dollars a year max. For most companies, payroll, medical insurance, office rent, furniture, liability insurance, transportation, travel etc cost more than office PC/laptop. So they are not looking for savings here.
Second, companies only focus on the differentials with their competitor. Stated differently, Coke does not care how much it spends on pc/laptops and office software as long as its competitor, Pepsi, is not spending a significantly lower amount on the same category. This explains the herd like behavior of the corporations. No body looked to outsource to India till about year 2000. One did. Showed some possible cost savings. Whether or not the savings were real, that first company's investment in India is real. Suddenly every suit is asking, "what if it pays off big time for them? What if we get left behind. Let us play it safe, hedge our bets and let us also have a presence in India."
I don't know when it will happen. But at some point some big company would make it a priority to have a second vendor in the office software arena, and invest a sum to show it is serious. Like a herd every suit who was asking, "What is our India strategy?" would be asking "What is our second vendor for office strategy?". Of course, not without some serious kicking and screaming and "Total cost of ownership" studies funded by MSFT. But when the corporate pendulum swings, it swings inexorably and usually it will go well past what is reasonable reach the other irrational extreme, corporations investing so much on "second vendor" strategy that the saving don't justify the investment. But that won't deter these suits, It never has.
Re: (Score:2)
The difference this time is that the EU is not some puny little nation that the USA can lean on until it gives way - or else launch an invasion and remove the obstructive government and justice system. Of course the USA could threaten to nuke Brussels, but I don't think that would look too good...
As for $690 million being chump change to MS, the solution is obvious. Apply a relative, rather than abso
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is that EU competition law has some restrictions on the size of the fine, it used to be 10% of revenue maximum at the time MS was fined... currently the maximum fine is 25% of revenue. However, it is not common in Europe to go for the maximum punishment on the first offence. While the 500 million
Explain your analogy (Score:2)
Doesn't make sense to me. I'm using Firefox on Windows. I use WinSCP. I use other free and open source tools on a Microsoft platform. I could be using OpenOffice, but I prefer Office 2003.
At a former employer, I worked on authenticating Linux boxes to a Win2k3 domain
So pray tell, how does your analogy work?
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Wishful thinking by EU (Score:2, Insightful)
free to compete on the merits, the logical consequence of that
would be to expect Microsoft's market share to fall," spokesman
Jonathan Todd said.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL1720058720070917?rpc=44 [reuters.com]
I'm no big fan of Microsoft but the statements made by the EU spokes-people are more wishful thinking than reality. Even with "fair" competition Microsoft will still dominate due to the strong network effect inherent in operating systems use
EU vs. USA - MS pending (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's as much a 'global corporation which tries to screw you over'-sentiment than anything else, and that's why a lot of open source people (also in the USA) are rejoicing. But... that sentiment played little to no role in the ruling neither.
Basically, it's quite simple: they went against EU law and were dragging their feet to comply. No judge likes THAT.
Personally, I think they deserve a much higher penalty. The EU commision is way to soft on them - actually softer then on big EU corporations they tried to deal with in the past. And also, the 'provide an XP without the mediaplayer'-thing was outright stupid. *Everyone* with half a brain could see this would have no effect. First of all, it's too limited in scope: what about win-OSses other than XP, what about all those other applications other then the media player? Is the EU going to fight a 10 year struggle over every OS and application that comes along and has the same issues as was now decided on?
And apart from that: it's just suilly. Nobody is going to buy XP without mediaplayer if, for the same price, one can get one *with* it. By now, this obvious deduction has been proven right. No, what they should do is making it obliged that *every* OS MS makes gives the oportunity to install (or not) any application that comes with it (browser, media player, virusscanner, etc.). That way, you let consumers decide, and you give the opportunity to choose other applications instead of the windows-included-ones.
Such a ruling would have made better sense, coppled with opening up their code for compatibility and an even huger fine would make it clear to MS that no corporation is above the law, not even a giant USA one with lots of money and lawyers.
Excellent job, Neelie Kroes !! (Score:2, Insightful)
Personally I think this latest verdict will do little to nothing in the real word, and most of its value lies in the precedent it sets. Microsoft is a huge company, with deep pockets, good lawyers and used to dealing with lawsuits. If they get hammered, get fined, appeal, and lose again, then any company is subject to the same if they break anti-competitive rules. It also re-affirms that EU courts at least have the power to kick ass if need be. For all that, this verdict is very significant.
Other than
the battle has moved on: DRM & BBC iPlayer (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps the obligation to publish interfaces will bear fruit, but only if MS get appropriately punished in a timely manner when what they initially publish turns out to bear no relation to what is actually in 'doze, or does relate to it, but doesn't actually contain sufficient information to get the job done.
In the mean time, the BBC have handed control of their on-line content over to MS in the form of the BBC iPlayer, which relies on MS DRM. By the time that the EU notices that, they'll have killed off the currently vibrant set-top box market, and the bulk of them will be running some form of WinCE. At least that's the danger, which people a need to get excited about now [defectivebydesign.org] if it's not to come to pass.
From the way the article reads... (Score:2)
This seems like a typical tactic they would employ to maintain their dominance and squeeze out competition.
Re: (Score:2)
If it complies with the EU, it could be charged with perjury here in the U.S. and it could also have some interesting effects as it might cause a new browser lawsuit.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The problem MS has is that it claimed in U.S. court and in front of Congress that it could not remove WMP or IE from Windows because they were so tightly integrated. If it complies with the EU, it could be charged with perjury here in the U.S. and it could also have some interesting effects as it might cause a new browser lawsuit.
No. Two different things. The US suit was about IE, not WMP; IE was what Microsoft claimed was too tightly integrated into the OS. The EU suit was the one that was (among other things) about WMP, and MS *did* make an edition of Windows without WMP in back in 2004. (It was sold for the same price as regular Windows, and IIRC, it sold something like seven copies in total worldwide. Go figure.)
What does this actually mean? (Score:2)
Or can Microsoft continue with the status quo and lock free software out? (i.e. the "Microsoft Communications Protocol Program" which is great if you are IBM wanting to make your mainframes talk to the Windows machines in the network but not so great if you are Samba wanting to make a solution that lets you replace a Windows active directory server with a linux machine)
uneven trade (Score:3, Funny)
That smacks of protectionism, and we have to retaliate.
Let's charge Microsoft $690 million to behave that way in the US.
Re: (Score:2)
Better solution? (Score:2)
It's simple; the EC should require that a certain (large) percentage of government computers should run alternate OSes. Microsoft shall be required to supply all docs needed for vendors to create interoperability. The power of the government purchasing vastly exceeds the power of fines.
Ob: Simpsons (Score:2)
Just the price of doing business as a latter-day robber baron. This might affect MS's bottom-line in a non-trivial way, but it won't affect their anti-competitive behavior or ill-gained market dominance. The saddest thing is that MS is clearly afraid to compete on merit. I guess they don't believe their products are superior either.
11 f
Sign of pragmatism? (Score:3, Interesting)
Fear the Ballmer! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A Pittance of a Fine..... (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget the ruling is 152-page long, and therefore, they will have to digest and comply with all the court orders to avoid paying even more fine. That may be difficult for them in a market that becomes more competitive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Please queue the anti EU replies here (Score:5, Informative)
Won't queue anything here. Anyone who knows a bit about the EU, know that this is bollocks. They go after anyone abusing the market. As Volkswagen [wsj.com], for example... Not a US company at all...
Re:who cares.., (Score:4, Funny)
How many had IE uninstalled?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Network effects.... (Score:2)
Re:who cares.., (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Since ford doesn't have a monopoly or near monopoly they aren't affected by antitrust legislation.
It's ironic choice of car analogy (Score:5, Informative)
The fight continues to this day: See the "Right to Repair" act. http://www.aftermarket.org/Government/Government.asp [aftermarket.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Every MS machine I've used quickly had firefox installed.
That would probably be because you're a Linux using /.er. Grandma doesn't know what a firefox is.
anyone heard about Sony suing Nissan for providing cars with a competitive player?
Nissan's evident monopoly Makes such a bundle crippling for a business making CD players. Ok, sarcasm aside, actions must be taken in context. Bundling (without option or exception) is less of a problem when you aren't the ONLY choice available. On top of that, realize that Nissan doesn't make the stereo they choose to bundle, and often cars have stereo upgrade options. You can't order your copy of Window
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:sheeeit. (Score:4, Insightful)
Just like the browser wars any competing media player had to fight against one that was installed on just about every PC anyway. An advantage MS used to sell their WM tech. Unfortunately as somebody already pointed out, it was too little, too late and more of a symbolic gesture. Other parts of the ruling (documenting the APIs) were more important.
XP(N) was just a side effect that MS milked for propaganda purposes (Look at those stupid eurocrats! Noone wants a crippled Windows, they just want to punish a successful company, stupid socialist French, yaddayadda)
Re:Quel surprise! (Score:5, Insightful)
Surprise surprise, a European court punished a company for breaking the law. Don't blame the EU for not slapping them on the wrist like the USA did. Perhaps if the USA enforced its own laws properly then it wouldn't have been necessary for the EU to pursue this case.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think so .. (Score:2)
Open the file formats? Here, have some source code
The file formats are not open when they are owned by a single company, the source isn't open when it is tied to proprietary formats.
"How about we just use XML?"
Microsoft X
Re: (Score:2)
after said company complied with order after absurd order to change its practices.
Untrue. Fines were demanded as a result of non-compliance. More fines were demanded as a result of MS not paying the initial fines and generally ignoring the proceedings. I should stop here, but I like to stop and feed the trolls once in a while.
Gee, no one seems to have bought XP-N
Is that so? Do you have numbers? How many XP box licenses were sold in the EU in the relevant timeframe? Not many at all, I'd say
Re: (Score:2)
This "designed by committee" approach to product development spawned one of the lowest-selling products ever released by the software giant, with the new XP N accounting for only 0.005 percent of all XP sales in Europe. [sfgate.com]
Choice, you say. Have you ever uninstalled IE? Don't
Re:Quel surprise! (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, I know you didn't mean it literally, but only to evoke the emotion of injustice and pitty for the poor victim - which is exactly why I point it out. MS isn't a poor victim, but a legally convicted criminal - btw. in the US as much as in the EU.
Re: (Score:2)
Sadly the EU has very little power to do this as those who really run MS are in the USA under the protection of a friendly governement.
Monopolies are not illegal (Score:4, Informative)
When a company has a monopoly, they get some extra rules to play by. Microsoft has not been following these.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Does AT&T ring a bell, mayhaps?
The company got split up, exactly as you say, and it's monopoly was over, and competition and innovation were abound.
While it may be true that a company strives to become a monopoly, it's equally true the state should strive to *not* let a company become a monopoly (or at least, deal with their abusive because of the
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, GNU/Linux really is so bad that it can't be considered a
Re: (Score:2)
If free software projects don't get that $690,000,000 then all I see is a bunch of lawyers getting rich, and citizens getting zip.
Re: (Score:2)
I propose that you start expecting the GNU/Linux developers and the distro developers to make Linux more user friendly.
You will draw more flies with honey than vinegar.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
que? (Score:3, Informative)
http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cases/index/by_nr_75.html [europa.eu]
We love you Americans really....let's kiss and make-up ok?