Google Planning New Undersea Cable Across Pacific? 144
tregetour writes "Google is planning a multi-terabit undersea communications cable across the Pacific Ocean for launch in 2009, Communications Day reports: 'Google would not strictly confirm or deny the existence of the Unity plan today, with spokesman Barry Schnitt telling our North American correspondent Patrick Neighly that "Additional infrastructure for the Internet is good for users and there are a number of proposals to add a Pacific submarine cable. We're not commenting on any of these plans." However, Communications Day understands that Unity would see Google join with other carriers to build a new multi-terabit cable. Google would get access to a fibre pair at build cost handing it a tremendous cost advantage over rivals such as MSN and Yahoo, and also potentially enabling it to peer with Asia ISPs behind their international gateways — considerably improving the affordability of Internet services across Asia Pacific.'"
evesdropping requirements (Score:4, Insightful)
Because you know there's no way "homeland security" is letting that happen without monitoring.
You know with these kinds of resources, if Google ever did turn evil, we'd never figure it out until it was far too late...
Re:evesdropping requirements (Score:5, Informative)
Re:evesdropping requirements (Score:5, Informative)
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But the NSA probably have spies amongst Google's data centre empoyee's anyway. So it doesn't matter
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The perceived difficulty with tapping fibre seems to be from the assumption that any interruption in data transmission will be noticed and instantly treated as suspicious. I think it's possible that a quick fibre cut and splice on an underwater cable could be perceived as nothing but a temporary and unimportant glitch by Telco's.
It may have been done before [zdnet.com]. And what are they going to do if a tap is detected? Rip up the whole thing and start over or just ignore it?
As the AC points out a repeater is probably a good point to tap. But then what do you do with the connection? You will need to run another cable the same size from the tap to a shore based facility to monitor the traffic. Now that would be noticeable!
Maybe the NSA tells the operators that they have a choice;
1) You can give us access at the end point (like AT&T [wired.com]).
2)
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No choice is available. Federal law requires that all telecom operators make their facilities available to law enforcement for the purpose of wiretapping. Option #1 should read "You will give us access..."
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They can always have the cable come ashore in either Mexico or Canada. Or they can fill any unused capacity with crap, and then encrypt it all.
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"Eventually, something has to cross the US border. That's where the tap goes."
2 words: Quantum Entanglement
2 more words: Laser Transceivers
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2 more words: Federal law.
If ever quantum cryptography is ready for implementation on fiber optic links and as a result the feds cannot monitor telecommunications, it will not be permitted.
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No choice is available. Federal law requires that all telecom operators make their facilities available to law enforcement for the purpose of wiretapping. Option #1 should read "You will give us access..."
In theory the Feds can only temporarily snoop on a case by case basis, with a court order (again in theory). In this case the Telcos control the data flow not the Feds.
What is being speculated is that the NSA would want constant (and covert) access to all communications on the cable much the way they are rumored to do with other forms of communication [world-information.org].
Again, this is mostly tin foil hat stuff but you never know.
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You are thinking about communications within the United States. If Google is installing an "Undersea Cable across the Pacific", Hawaii aside, I'm assuming that means international. The same laws don't apply.
Try driving across the border from Canada or Mexico sometime and asking the Customs agents who are about to tear your car apart for t
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Re:evesdropping requirements (Score:5, Insightful)
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Getting that amount of data out intact without splicing is rather difficult.
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I don't think I saw that eposide?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DvaubDDbss [youtube.com]
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Break the cable in two spots the way a trawler net/earthquake/shark/etc would break it.
Start splicing in the middle. You will finish before the ISPs etc fix the cable in the two broken spots.
Alternatively you can just break the cable in one spot and splice somewhere not too far and not too near. You'd probably finish splicing before they start doing the TDR stuff to figure out where the cable is broken.
But I am not one of those spy people so what do I know.
Re:evesdropping requirements (Score:4, Informative)
NZ, Australia, Japan and now something extra in Hawaii. Asia is now so tapped.
Google is of no interest, the NSA can tap at any point they want.
http://cryptome.org/google/kunia-us.htm [cryptome.org]
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Even with the enormous amounts of data going through it, it shouldn't be difficult.
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Google an NSA front ... (Score:4, Funny)
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So the best way is to get as much of the worlds data moving via NSA friendly countries.
For everything else, there's the USS Jimmy Carter to bend the fiber.
Do no evil .... (Score:3, Interesting)
This may have been a brilliant move on Googles' part. Fully cooperate with the Chinese governments' "Great Firewall" until they could put themselves in a position to undermine that authority.
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Re:Do no evil .... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Google operates at pleasure of Chinese government (Score:3, Insightful)
The Google office, all the data it collected on Chinese individuals, and one end of that cable all exist in Chinese territory. Google operates at the pleasure of the Chinese government. The day Google attempts to move against that government is the day all Google's property and data becomes property of the governmen
Great? (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it is great if it is true. I like the redundancy plan. But, since they don't specify the route, I am very skeptical. On the other hand, who am I to talk. I have never put a job opening on Monster looking for a "submarine cable negotiator." That is frickin' hilarious.
Me? I would go up through Alaska, through Russia via the Bering Sea. Cap'n Sig would do most of the work for me on the Northwestern. I would avoid doing a Portland-to-Tokyo route because of the ring-o-fire thingy.
I fell in to a burning ring of fire, I went down,down,down and the flames went higher. And my mod went lower.
Re:Great? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's amusing that you would mention that, because the first transatlantic telegraph cable (well... the first project - there were a few abortive attempts as well as some attempts that stopped working soon after completion) was in direct competition with a "do it the long way" overland route via Russia that was being built by Western Union. The first long-lasting undersea cable eventually finished the race first in 1866, and the Western Union attempt was abandoned the next year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_telegraph_cable [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Union_Telegraph_Expedition [wikipedia.org]
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Thanks. Very interesting. I think I just saw something on TV regarding the anniversary of the first round-the-world telegraph link. And the Russian thing did eventually work out and was, obviously, a big part of it.
I was able to actually touch some of the fiber cable that they lay undersea these days, and it is some amazing stuff. If the Martians vaporize the planet someday, I'm convinced that this cable will be the only thing left.
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Environmentalists would never allow it ... (Score:2)
Environmentalists would never allow the cable to go through Alaska. I'm sure it would have to touch some sort of pristine wilderness and the lawsuits would never end.
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There are still people who haven't read Neal Stephenson's Mother Earth, Mother Board [wired.com]?
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OK. Sorry. I was being more flip than anything else. But, I do stand by my conclusion.
Undersea cables are notoriously difficult to fix. And hugely expensive to fix. Sometimes, the "fix" is to lay entire new cable. "Fairly" easy in the Phillipines/Australia/Indonesia area (and it happens all the time), but hard when it comes to long distances like Portland to Tokyo.
My point, if I had one, is to keep it close to land. Especially when laying long stretches in the ring-o-fire. "I was modded down, down, down, an
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Afaict there are two reasons why under ocean cables are a PITA.
The first is that power is only availible at the ends. This means that if you want repeaters (all modern undersea cables have them as it is very hard to get a decent data rate over that kind of distance without them). In other words your cable general
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power is only availible at the ends. This means that if you want repeaters (all modern undersea cables have them as it is very hard to get a decent data rate over that kind of distance without them). In other words your cable generally has to contain high voltage DC power wiring as well as the fibers that actually carry your data.
I wonder if the economics would justify development of some kind of undersea thermoelectric plant, mid-ocean? A big engineering challenge obviously, but if it cut the power that has to be carried in the cable by half, just maybe there could be a cost case.
What about the cost of US internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time I checked, Japan and SK had amazing speeds (10-100mbit) for very affordable prices. It's still a matter of government intervention, not corporate meddling.
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Geez. You managed to distill leftist philosophy into one sentence. That's impressive. South Korea and Japan's impressive availability is a matter of advantageous population distribution and relatively low cost of infrastructure because of that distribution. This situation will never, ever happen in the U.S., even if politicians try to wave magic Government-Issued wands.
Re:What about the cost of US internet? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes and no.
The Feds, over the past decade, did wave such a magic card at the Telcos and the billions of dollars that were inside that card that were supposed to be used for such a buildout just vanished. Gone. Never to be seen again. "Information superhighway" my ass.
So the situation could obtain in the U.S. but only if we remove a major stumbling block: the major ISP themselves. Believe me, the investment capital would be available if the people willing to put up the money knew that they would receive a return on that investment. Interestingly, Google is investing heavily in infrastructure, but they're not giving it to the incumbents. They know better than anyone that it would be a waste of money.
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The Feds, over the past decade, did wave such a magic card at the Telcos and the billions of dollars that were inside that card that were supposed to be used for such a buildout just vanished. Gone. Never to be seen again. "Information superhighway" my ass.
Boy, I sure am glad we have that grand and august institution, the US Congress, to investigate such matters and bring justice for the people. Surely this will be at the forefront of their agenda, right after condemning political organizations for exercising their free speech and rubber-stamping war budget requests. Gentlemen, we are in good hands.
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Although it is really entertaining to read all of these conspiracy theories, they really have no basis in fact or common telecom practice. I have been in the telecom business for 15 years, and this is just one of many such deals that happen every few years. For example, check out Global Crossing's international crossings [globalcrossing.com] on their network map.
This deal has nothing to do with making Internet access cheaper for anyone. What it is about is the ability to capture significant revenue by owning the transmission
Sounds good (Score:5, Insightful)
As I understand it, Australia (and probably everyone else, for that matter) has been getting reamed by the USA as regards Internet peering arrangements. Bandwidth costs have always been higher here, and it's not all to do with a lack of local competition, although that used to be a credible story back when Telstra was charging twenty cents a megabyte for permanent dial-up connectivity. These days the economic pressure is mostly conspicuous for the fact that local hosting services are so expensive. If Google busts up that cosy little oligopoly, I'll love them to bits for it. To gigabits, even. (Sorry. Preemptive pun. Someone had to do it.)
Is this a part of Google's answer to the whole carrier sabre-rattling about non-neutrality and wanting a slice of Google's profits? There's no better way to ensure fair treatment than to provide your own infrastructure. Is this Google's way of saying to the carriers, "get over it, guys -- bandwidth is a fricken commodity now, and we're going to compete with you to make it so, so kiss your old monopoly profits goodbye." There's a high barrier to entry in this market, and you'd be mad to buy your way in only to compete all the profits out of it -- unless you happen to be a major consumer of bandwidth yourself, like Google.
Must... not... get... hopes... up...
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it is a price falling commodity, as it should be. The more you use,
the cheaper it should be, like any other commodity. PORN!!! Cool.
The googlopoly (Score:1)
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Africa (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Africa (Score:4, Insightful)
Because businesses function on making money, not just fulfilling "needs."
Undersea cables are hideously expensive and the company putting one in _needs_ to have a reasonable chance of recouping those costs.
While Africa may "need" internet, the fact that companies aren't already in a race to provide Africa with internet is a de-facto signal that multiple companies don't think they have a business case to provide it.
I need a "Ferrari" but the business community isn't in a hurry to provide ME with one either.
Google is setting up in Kenya... (Score:1)
Author mispoke (Score:1)
You mean Firewalls, don't you?
Nice (Score:3, Insightful)
They will just snoop everybodies traffic....
One way to achieve Net Neutrality... (Score:2, Insightful)
They are buying one fiber pair (Score:5, Informative)
As for "considerably improving the affordability of Internet services across Asia Pacific,'" I don't follow that at all. Google doesn't sell transit. The new cable might do that, but not because of Google - because real ISPs will get other fiber pairs and use them to sell transit.
Next, we'll get articles about how Google's corporate jets will revolutionize air transport in North America ! (At least, for Google execs.)
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Actually modern submarine fibre-optic cables usually contain four or less fibres. The massive traffic capacity is provided by multiplexing wavelengths down the same fibres. A modern terminal can typically handle up to 192 wavelengths @ 10Gbps (hence the multiterabit capacity).
Therefire ownership of a complete fibre pair in one of these things is a significant investment!
http://www.alcatel-lucent/submarine [www.alcatel-lucent]
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Google is the NWO (Score:1, Interesting)
I almost want Microsoft to win, because at least they've got part of the fascist aesthetic down. This Nanny Corporate State NWO bullshit is just depressingly silly.
Ill buy it (Score:2)
Lower the cost? (Score:1)
New Google Hire (Score:2, Funny)
FTFA: WTF is a Capacity Bubble? (Score:2)
...What?
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Wikipedia article - Submarine Communications Cable (Score:5, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_communications_cable [wikipedia.org]
I particularly found very interesting the map with all the undersea cables in the world. Pretty cool.
Re:Wikipedia article - Submarine Communications Ca (Score:3, Interesting)
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That anyone can upload an image to Wikipedia?
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Neal Stephenson article on cable laying (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wikipedia article - Submarine Communications Ca (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass_pr.html [wired.com]
It was posted (here I think) on a previous related story, it's very long, and I would not have expected to find the subject interesting, but the article makes it fascinating and very readable.
Why can't the USA get decent Internet (Score:1)
Why am I stuck with 1.5m/384k DSL?
When will FiOS get to Oklahoma!!!
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That said, even if you get the bandwidth you seek, if you're a geek then you still won't be satisfied by the Terms
ZOMG! They're going to do it! (Score:3, Funny)
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I'd totally move to something like Rapture, but I have to admit living in an apartment with big windows on the other side of which is the screaming crushing instant death of the deep sea might be a bit unnerving no matter how much tranparent aluminum is protecting me.
Preempting? (Score:2)
See, if the net does not become neutral (i.e. tiered access), they would be seriously affected and have to pay the ISPs so their sites are in the top tier (think servers where Adsense is served from).
If they now own the pipes, they can avoid this whole debate altogether.
Then again, the net neutrality issue is about the last mile (provider to end user), so that may not be it
Re:why is this better than satellite upload/downlo (Score:1, Informative)
Video surveillance and satellite would work fine together: a 1 second delay usually isn't a concern in such applications. Same thing with batch jobs and large file transfers.
But for short message/interactive applications (games, shells, telephone communications), an undersea cable is, right now, the best communications path. Very high bandwidth and shortest-path. The big downside of a cable is that it is more vulnerable to d
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fibre is currency in this century.
Re:why is this better than satellite upload/downlo (Score:1)
Re:why is this better than satellite upload/downlo (Score:2)
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Well, there's nothing like wired network access for security... ;D
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Submarine means "under water", you subliterate.
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