Iran Builds Supercomputer From Banned AMD Parts 778
Stony Stevenson writes with the news that, despite a ban on US PC hardware, Iranian techs have built an enormously powerful supercomputer from 216 AMD processors. The Linux-cluster machine has a 'theoretical peak performance of 860 gig-flops'. "The disclosure, made in an undated posting on [the University of] Amirkabir's Web site, brought an immediate response Monday from AMD, which said it has never authorized shipments of products either directly or indirectly to Iran or any other embargoed country."
Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Not only can they never be allowed to have nukes but it will be a cold day in hell before they are allowed to get the processing power to run Windows Vista!!!!!
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
No worries - they still don't have enough horsepower for Vista ;)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Interesting)
Essentially, there are two halves of the government, one of which consists of the Majlis (parliament) and the Presidency, which is elected in a straightforward fashion and is responsible for most day to day government work. The other half of the government consists of the Supreme Leader, Guardian Council and Assembly of Experts. That half doesn't so much do things as stop things from happening. It is empowered to interfere in any government or political process, including in extreme cases disqualifying candidates it does not like for standing for the election to the Majlis.
In theory the Supreme Leader is indirectly elected: the people elect the Experts, and the Experts elect the Supreme Leader. However the Supreme Leader appoints the Guardians, who determine who may stand for election as an Expert. Therefore the Supreme Leader is in a position to indirectly disqualify any potential Expert who might vote against him.
The system is much too cumbersome to be despotic, although it has despotic elements. It is certainly more democratic than the old Soviet political system, and there are a number of curious ironies in how it operates. For example, the chairman of the Assembly of Experts, Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani, is relatively speaking a political moderate and compared to the popularly elected president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, he is considered pro-western.
Overall, the term "Islamic Republic" seems apt. A western republic is as democratic as it can be without encroaching on the prerogatives and liberties of the individual. Iran's government is as democratic as possible without encroaching on the prerogatives and authority of authorities in Islamic law.
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's only common courtesy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
"The only way to win is to play"?
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
216 unlicensed copies of Vista--BOMBS AWAY!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
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QED.
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:5, Funny)
A type of root beer.
Re:Bush is relieved... (Score:4, Funny)
Like, "in what month do Australians drink the least beer?"
Karma Pump (Score:3, Funny)
You can't bash Microsoft products on Slashdot and get away with it.
In fact what you've built for yourself is a karma pump. Normal people mod you +1 funny, because your comment IS funny but you don't get mod points for that, just visibility. Microsoft reps then mod you "Redundant" or "Offtopic" to try hide your slur on their product, which costs you karma and knocks your score down. Real people then feed you a few mo
Don't panic (Score:5, Funny)
Intel's new marketing slogan... (Score:5, Funny)
Less than reputable resellers in the world?? (Score:5, Funny)
The Number of the Beast? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Number of the Beast? (Score:5, Funny)
That's right, Satan is a mathematician now...
I guess he got tired of all the paperwork associated with being a lawyer.
"Enormously Powerful" (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure what the story is here...
-Chris
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Seriously, to get that many computers into Iran they might have needed *a second truck*.
Re:"Enormously Powerful" (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure what the story is here...
-Chris
'Banned'? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:'Banned'? (Score:5, Interesting)
The ban on business with Iran goes well beyond military exports. It's a ban on business, period. It's called an embargo. It's to economically punish Iran for being enemies to the US and its allies.
In case anyone hasn't noticed the course of the last 300 years of warfare, it's not the size of your population or the fealty of a few princes in neighboring cities that make a country powerful any longer. It's your economy. The size of your fleet of ships, tanks, planes, subs, helicopters, jeeps, and other vehicles is one key. The logistical support of modern electronics and a worldwide communications network is another these days. A distribution network for troops, equipment, and supplies is a third. The money to keep a standing army well trained is important. The more business you do with enemies or potential enemies, the stronger they can become militarily. All this has been the trend since at least the Industrial Revolution. It became a stark truth nobody could deny in the World Wars, especially WW II.
This is why so many military people are interested in the US's levels of trade with China. We're not in a very friendly state with them, although relations are fairly solid. We send them more money every year, though, and their year-over-year growth in military spending is starting to closely follow the growth in the US/China trade imbalance. American consumers are supporting the Chinese military, and if they ever decide to assert that power against the US, it'll be those DVD players, dolls, lead-painted trains, and TVs that funded it. Relations with China are good enough right now, though, that it's kind of a long view type of mild concern. The Taiwan issue might change that some day, but China hasn't called for the death of the US, the UK, and Israel just yet, nor has their president denied the Holocaust.
Iran, on the other hand, was ruled by a US ally. It was taken over by militant theocrats who held US citizens hostage for well over a year. Many of us still remember the yellow ribbons for those hostages. They have supported terrorists in Israel, and they are believed to be funding and supplying terrorists within Iraq. No, I don't mean insurgent freedom fighters. Insurgent freedom fighters don't blow up women and children at Mosques and in the marketplaces. Insurgent freedom fighters attack military personnel and military targets with minimal collateral damage to their own country's people and property. I believe there are some people in Iraq who really are trying to just fight against the US occupation, but there's something else going on there as well. Don't be fooled for a second into thinking that religiously ruled Shia Iran is keeping any money or weapons it supplies away from death squads killing Aramaic Christians, Sunni Arabs, and Kurds in the streets. If they are indeed placing weapons and supplies into Iraq as is claimed, it's surely to help the Shiite cause more than anything else.
Why would a country so against what the US and our allies represent not be on a banned trading list? Hell, we still don't trade with Castro except for selling Cuba medicine and food. I still can't legally buy a Cuban cigar just because he nationalized a bunch of US-owned nightclubs and hotels and took the country socialist. Sure, Castro's a dictator, but when has that single fact ever stopped the US? I'd remove Cuba from the list long before Iran. Hell, we're even friendly with Libya now, and they blew up a Pam Am flight in the 80's. But Iran? No. Not under Khamenei and Ahmadinejad.
Re:'Banned'? (Score:5, Informative)
More proof (Score:2, Interesting)
Iran and Iranians can get their computers now and always have. You might as well have American companies making the money.
Same thing with Cuba.
Trade and diplomacy work much better than sanctions and war. You want Castro to fall? Flood Cuba with American tourists and artists.
new crunching machine (Score:5, Funny)
Lotsa way of smuggling parts in (Score:2)
Silly Iranians. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do all that work to achieve a theoretical peak performance of 860 GFlops, when a IBM Cell [wikipedia.org] processor has a theoretical peak around 1000 GFlops?
My point is that the theoretical maximum speed rating, all by itself, doesn't fully characterize the relevant performance of a given computer for the computations which it's intended to perform.
Or maybe the Iranians really should just make a trip to Best Buy...
Hawks (Score:2)
Probably would have been better... (Score:3, Interesting)
Good for them (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't make the top 500... (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed, the article mentions at the end that it falls far behind the rest of the world. In fact, to make the Top 500 this year you had to have a supercomputer worthy of 5.9 Teraflops.
I am encouraged by this (Score:5, Interesting)
Largest non-porn computer (Score:5, Funny)
You cannot ban commodities, it just doesn't work (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that you can somehow 'ban' a country from getting ahold of a commodity is ludicrious and stupid. The only way you could really do that would be to effectively seal and close their borders militarily and embargo them to the point that you controlled all of their travel and trade outside of their borders. Good luck with that.
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Those are easier to interdict because they are bulk products. A shipping container of computer parts is small and easy to send most anywhere.
Could someone explain (Score:5, Insightful)
because they are a theocracy (Score:5, Insightful)
that doesn't bother you?
whether pro-usa, or anti-usa, or pro-israel, or anti-israel, this should bother you, regardless
i'm sorry, but in this world, very little concepts frighten me more than a theocracy with nukes
and i'm not talking about the loose propagandistic label of "theocracy" one might apply to say, the usa, because the current president (who will soon be gone) is a conservative southern baptist. i'm talking about an actual, stated, as clearly implied in the constitution, theocracy. as in, our government serves god and those unelected grumpy old men over there interpret what he wants. the real deal, a real genuine clearly stated theocracy
any rational human being should feel threatened by a theocracy with nukes. regardless of any of your other concerns in the middle east, or any of your other politics in general
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution.html [iranonline.com]
"because they are a theocracy" So? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are the leaders of a theocracy any less motivated by desire for wealth and power? Are they more suicidal than a theocrat, or any other politician, ruling a democracy?
I haven't seen anything in your argument showing why a theocracy is more of a danger with nukes beyond using "theocracy" as a magic fearphrase like "think-of-the-children" etc.
israel isn't a theocracy (Score:3, Insightful)
but do it for valid reasons, not propaganda
Cause for concern (Score:4, Insightful)
Were Iran to test a nuclear weapon in real life, they would get noticed pretty quickly (the seismic readings would see to that), and a preemptive strike would soon follow. (Once there is no doubt that the Iranians are working on nuclear weapons, there'd be little resistance to ensure that they don't succeed; it's not only the US, Europe and Israel who are worried, but their Sunni Islamic neighbours, regarded by them as apostates, are none too comfortable with a nuclear-armed Iran. Add to that Ahmadine-Jihad's support of the concept of martyrdom (the Iranian government actually recruits suicide bombers for jihadist attacks against US/Jewish/Sunni interests), and you've got the sort of nuclear power that can't be trusted to do the sensible thing and sit on its nukes as a defensive weapon of last resort.
As such, supercomputing power of this sort would be vitally important in running nuclear simulations and perfecting a bomb.
Before you panic (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Easier to swap out programs (even if it means interrupting a test) than it is hiding a computer.
Just sayin as a counterpoint...
It just doesn't matter (Score:5, Insightful)
Most US nuclear weapons were designed using computers under 1 MIPS. Even the fusion bombs. About 40 years ago, I was visiting a UNIVAC 1105 installation (the biggest all-vacuum-tube computer ever built as a commercial product, designed when Gen. Leslie Groves was at UNIVAC), and they'd done some work on bomb design. It took about two days per run, and they'd run the program at the same time some other location was running it. Every three hours, the console typewriter would print out a checksum, and they'd phone the other location to see if it matched. If not, they had to back up to the last checkpoint tape and restart.
This huge machine was comparable in power to a PC/AT with an FPU chip; a good 1985 desktop.
The silly thing about export controls on computers is that the U.S. Government keeps increasing the control threshold for "supercomputers". The current threshold is 750 gigaflops, which is a few racks of servers. In 1995, it was 2 gigaflops, or about where a low-end PC is today. Back in 1987, there was a big flap when Iran tried to get hold of a VAX 8600, which is about 0.005 gigaflops. But bomb design isn't getting any more difficult.
Any modern laptop can do the calculations necessary for bomb design. Deal with it.
Re:It's not design, it is testing (Score:4, Informative)
However supercomputers have now progressed to the point that you can actually TEST a bomb all in software.
This is inaccurate.
The basic nuclear design tools are finite element modeling and Monte Carlo simulations. With larger and larger number of elements modeled, you can get more and more accurate simulations in the same timeframe, so that the model has closer and closer resemblance to experimental reality. You also need some baseline data; some of that is declassified, some can be obtained experimentally on smaller scale using neutron beams, lasers, and high explosives. But the most important data on the high efficiency yield properties, and the algorithmic optimizations allowing rapid and detailed simulations, remain classified.
Even with a supercomputer design, without an actual test, you can't be sure your extrapolations and simulations will be as good as you hope. Getting a nuclear explosion isn't the real challenge; it's making one that's efficient. (This may have been North Korea's problem; sub-kiloton yields can result if you make a mistake.) However, a good computer lets you get a better idea of the sorts design variants you want to play with before you go risking your very expensively obtained fissionables on a test explosion.
But basic work and a rough model once you have the basic materials data? Two days on the HP-49 calculator, including programming time. A 7x7x7 element model gives you numbers that will be within 10% of the final... which does translate into an order of magnitude difference in possible yield, but anything from 1 to 100 kilotons still gets attention.
iran is a very proud country (Score:3, Insightful)
ok, fine, i respect that independence and fierce pride
however, i don't think i could be very proud of myself if my tech consisted of stuff i stole from my archnemesis. national pride i think must rest on something stronger than "ha ha! i stole your stuff!"
Easy to locate (Score:5, Funny)
Since they're using AMD, this should be an easy target to visit with your basic heat seeking missile.
Unless, of course, the signature overwhelms the sensor.
"Enormously powerful" my butt... (Score:3, Insightful)
So the Iranians strung together 216 previous-gen 2GHz Opterons... Big freaking deal. This is not exactly rocket science; it's all off-the-shelf commodity stuff, both hardware and software. I know several university research groups that have more computing power than that, let alone supercomputer centers.
If they field a machine in the tens of teraflops, *then* there might be some cause for alarm...
Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Funny)
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Actually, I believe the ban is even stronger than that...things like banking and such are banned as well...basically we don't like Iran, so we can't do business with them at all.
Re:Oh well. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Oh well. (Score:4, Informative)
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Of course that doesn't matter here in the USA where we are a "Christian-based" nation. The more you can make the better.... Right?
Oh, and as far as Muslim nations not charging interest???? Yeah right. They caved as well. Though I will say that they generally charge less interest than here in t
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Why would Judaism, with circa 14 million adherents, be considered one of "the 3 major religions" while excluding Hinduism with circa 900 million adherents as a major religion [adherents.com]?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No, simple interest is a rate too. Compound interest is when the interest charged to date is rolled into the principal for the next period, while simple interest is when the interest amount per period is calculated based on the original principal. For example, say you've got a loan for $100 at 10% interest for 5 periods (could be months, years, whatever). With simple interest, you'd be charged ($100 * 10%) = $10 interest for the first period, $10 for the second, $10 for the third, etc. With compound interes
Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Oh well. (Score:5, Funny)
They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously though, Iran is a scapegoat for US politicians. They can't handle, politically, the fact that their foreign policy initiatives fail consistently in the Middle East. They need a shadowy, vageuly evil figure to pit the fear of the electorate against the critical thinking of the electorate, which is the side that says invasions, coups, and exploitation aren't working. If it weren't for the Iran, the Iraq war would have zero political viability. Instead, Iran provides a "threat" so it becomes politically viable to call for indefinite troop deployment.
This is a most bizarre case of symbiotism. Ahmadinejade is pretty much an idiot (see no gays in Iran comment) who doesn't really have all that special of a record. Is he a threat to world civilization, probably not. He does, however, say enough dumb things that he gives political capital to his enemies in the west. His enemies in the west return the favor by imposing sanctions, threatening pre-emptive attacks, etc. It's a twisted quid pro quo kind of thing. He gets to appeal to Iranian nationalism against the threat of American attack, and the White House gets to appeal to Americans' fears of an evil terrorist state with nukes and a supercomputer.
Moral of the story is that fear, uncertainty, and doubt breeds political power. Any time someone tells you to be afraid, take it with a grain of salt.
Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, but our [whitehouse.gov] idiots are better than their idiots!
U-S-A! U-S-A!
Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems he gets mistranslated a lot too, like about the wiping off the map, or about there not being gays like in the US. Maybe he meant as in with their own parades and being in everybody's face... although I hear that the Iranians watching also laughed at that one. I don't know, but it sounds to me like an Al Gore "invented the internet" kind of spin.
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In the top 99.9%, you say? That's a claim you don't hear every day...
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Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if America is basing foreign policy on hypothetical situations that are contradicted by real intelligence reports / common sense, just imagine what Iran could do IF they had enough unicorn poo gold to destabilize the dollar blah blah Amero blah SuperInterstateHighway the width of Manhattan blah blah tin foil hats blah Ron Paul?
They have guns. And yet they don't shoot across the Iraqi border with reckless abandon. And North Korea has the bomb, and yet South Korea still steadfastly refuses to be a glass ashtray.
Hmmmm.
Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, out of curiosity, how is it a discussion of equals right now in the M.E. when Israel has nuclear weapons and no one else does (that we know of)?
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Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Thank you. That "wipe off the map" quote was deliberate translation disinformation, folks.
And the Saddam Hussein régime? (Score:3)
So there you go. Classic disinformation. The difference between today's corporate media and Soviet media, is that in Soviet Russia, people
Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
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ehem, isn't israel "a bunch of religious radicals with nuclear bombs" too? actually... i'd say that a country that even remotely considers discussion of creationist views as part of their science curricula a bunch of religiuos radicals... why is Iran religious radicalness worse than israel's or USA's?
The point is, we do know that Israel has nukes, and they indeed do have a large portion of religious radicals. It is interesting to note that despite this, and despite the considerably hostile atmosphere su
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OOoooh, daily ineffective rocket attacks that have killed maybe 5 people, compared to the rocket attacks by Israel, which usually kill more than 5 each time.
So you're saying Israel should just tolerate having its civilians living under a constant rain of rockets that quite often shock, injure or maim, and only occasionally kill someone?
What a shortsighted moron you are.
No, I'm trying to defend my country from the vile slander occasionally thrown at it around here. And who the fuck are you?
Just to remind you Israel ethnically cleansed millions from its territory from about 1947 on
"The number of Palestinians who fled or were expelled from Palestine during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War is disputed.[...] The final UN estimate was 711,000" (link [wikipedia.org]). Millions? Where did that come from?
and on one occasion assassinated a UN official who moved 8000 refugees back into their homes.
If you
Re:They are the Boogeymen! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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You don't know SHIT! But I will 'try' to educate (Score:5, Interesting)
So sick of this misconception and ignorance, I really want to insult you somehow, but since that probably won't help much, I'll explain:
There are a few religious radicals in Iran in the lower to mid levels of the government, but they are significantly outnumbered by the other group.
Wanna know who this other group is? Please read on, till the end...
I start with someone you are familiar with; do you consider Dick Cheney a radical Christian or a ruthless businessman which uses religion or any other tool as a means to make profit? like when he talks about supporting the troops does he really care about the troops or he has an agenda of his own?
Well, Cheney is one of the members of the "Other Group", the businessmen, except he is American.
In Iran we have our own businessmen. Since the 'Islamic' revolution of 1979, these people have taken over the government in a country where 90%+ of the economy is owned and operated by the government.
A clear example, is the largest of these business entities: Islamic Republic Revolutionary Guards (IRGC), most recent bogeyman on CNN/FOX. While the American media focuses on the 'military' part of IRGC's operation, they neglect to mention the much much bigger side of IRGC.
Revolutionary Guards is the single biggest business entity in Iran, they build all the dams, bridges, tunnels and roads, railroad, they operate civilian airports all across the country, they do the largest mining operations, they own many of the largest and most profit generating financial institutions in Iran and this list goes on forever.
Almost half of the members of the current parliament are former IRGC members, Ahmadinejad himself made his way to being Tehran's Mayor and later, Iran's president through IRGC.
Another example is Mesbah Yazi, a mid-level clergy, known as the mentor of Ahmadinejad, the biggest fucking piece of shit I know in Iran. Plays the same role to Ahmadi Nejad as Dick plays to Bush. But there's another side to this guy, he is also known as "Sultan of Sugar" in Iran. He controls import, distribution and sale of all Sugar in Iran. Believe me, in a country of 70 million population a monopoly on sugar is better than a monopoly on gold mines. He also says that the 'Zionist regime' of Israel is doomed, however nuking them means end of the sweet sugar business for him.
Former president Rafsanjani, former parliament speaker Nategh Noori and many others are businessmen too. They don't give a fuck about religion unless in public when preaching people.
In conclusion, I just want you to think, what benefit does nuking Israel which guarantees a much much harsher reaction from Israel bring to these ruling businessmen? See, that's why Iran, even with nukes is no threat at all to any other country?
All that matters to these people is survival of their business, they are not religious zealots, they don't believe in the second coming or afterlife or crap like what they preach to people. If a day comes where wiping their asses with pages of Quran helps them keep control of their business, then that's what they WILL HAPPILY DO.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
When Iran annexes Poland, I'll support attacking them.
Re:Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
See below for example
Subject: Obligatory
Comment: Nevermind
We'll eventually just shorten it to
Subject: Nevermind
Comment:
Re:Too bad... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Oh noes! (Score:5, Informative)
Google the news on Iran and that latest CIA report that says Iran stopped pursuing nuclear weapons in 2003. Guess what you'll find -- the EU, France, Germany and others basically saying the U.S. intelligence is flawed and Iran is a much greater nuclear threat than that report states.
France and Germany are pushing for harsher sanctions than the U.N. ones. They want separate EU sanctions on Iran, and still call their nuclear program "a threat".
The Middle East nations all are fearful of Iran as is, and terrified of them having nuclear weapons. Arabs != Persians.
No they're not pushing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's one thing to have a supercomputer.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
These bans are utterly unenforceable.
Re:Not too hard (Score:4, Insightful)
From:
The Iranian Consulate
50 Kensington Court
Kensington
London
W8 5DB
To:
PC World
47/53 Kensington High Street
Kensington
London
W8 5ED
0.2 mi - Quite a bit less than a 5 minute walk.
Head east on Kensington Ct (259 ft)
Turn left to stay on Kensington Ct (240 ft)
Turn left at A315/Kensington Rd &
Continue to follow A315 (0.1 mi)
Not really that far, There's even a McDonalds just a little further on after PC World if you need a snack before you head back.
Of course on the downside you would end up paying over the odds for anything you buy....
Should have bought Playstations (Score:5, Interesting)
Getting good performance out of cluster machines requires some work, but that's what open source software and spare grad students are for. You can't use them for every kind of problem, but they're pretty flexible, and they're certainly good enough for most kinds of nuke design or fluid flow.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm pretty damn sure they didn't have supercomputers when they built the Trinity test bomb. In fact, your average cell phone is probably more powerful than the combined computing power of all the computers in existence back in 1945. Hydrogen bombs came not long thereafter (in fact, I believe Teller came up with the basic design while the Manhattan project was still underway), and are therefore similarly non-computationally-expensive to design.
I'm sure there are a few exciting, new
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, what someone else said about being able to simulate tests without actually performing them (thus hiding the fact