Training From America's Army Game Saved a Life 379
russoc4 writes "Most people who play the United States Army's freeware FPS sit through training simulations so that they may be able to get into the action and rack up some kills. The medic skills learned in the training allow you to heal teammates in the game, but it seems that they also apply in real life situations. According to Wired and the America's Army forums, 'a North Carolina man who saw an SUV flip and roll on a highway last November was able to provide medical aid to the victims with skills he learned from the America's Army.'" See? We learn things from videogames! Feign Death works sometimes, too.
Yeah! (Score:5, Funny)
LOOK! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, "this is your rifle..."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
There are many like it, but this one is MINE!
YES!!! (Score:5, Funny)
And yes I am being serious.
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Funny)
(apologies to Roger Waters)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Now they have a valid excuse to ban violent games. I can hear it now: "We've been trying to tell you for years that doing something in a game can teach you how to do it real life. Today it was someone who learned how to save a life. Tomorrow it will be someone who learned how to take it."
The worst part is they kind of have a point. Every time violence in games comes up, our first counter-argument has always been that games and reality are different and the skills don't translate across. So, what do we say now? It seems like we have a choice between claiming that this guy did not learn first aid from a video game, or that people only learn good skills from games. Both of those ring pretty hollow.
Sadly, so am I.
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
It's one thing for the skills to translate to real life-- the whole point of America's Army, after all, is a combat simulator. So you learn some first aid, and you also learn some combat tactics.
The real question isn't whether the game gives you knowledge, but whether the game makes you more likely to do something you wouldn't do otherwise. Do you have more of an inclination to find people to bandage after doing it in game? Probably not, no more than you would be more inclined to shoot somebody.
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
The worst part is they kind of have a point. Every time violence in games comes up, our first counter-argument has always been that games and reality are different and the skills don't translate across. So, what do we say now? It seems like we have a choice between claiming that this guy did not learn first aid from a video game, or that people only learn good skills from games. Both of those ring pretty hollow.
I would disagree with one little bit: skills do translate across. Behaviour needn't.
Any skill you learn in any kind of context will translate across. Behaviour depends on a greater number of factors.
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, we could claim that you only learn stuff applicable in real-life from games that are as anal about realism as America's Army is. Dunno how it is nowadays, but back when I played it (when they still had a Linux version), to get to play as a medic you had to attend an in-game class (which was quite long), and then take a test about what they'd taught you in it. Pretty f'in far from the likes of GTA, which are the usual targets of anti-videogames propaganda.
It wouldn't surprise me either to hear about some guy being able to fly a small plane without formal training if he had played Flight Simulator for years with a specialized controller, whereas I *would* be surprised if he had managed to do so after just a couple of weeks playing Battlefield 1942 and UT2004.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
I spent 15 minutes reading a first aid manual when I was a kid. Amazing how much of the "medical help learned in America's Army" is just common sense and first aid basics. That ANYONE above the age of 12, in a CIVILIZED FIRST WORLD COUNTRY, would LACK THESE SKILLS, tells me all I need to know about how "educated" and "enlightened" westerners truly are as compared to how much they THINK they are.
Sheesh. Keeping wounds above heart level keeps the blood from spurting out as rapidly. That's basic physics mixed with basic anatomy or first aid. These were actually taught in 4th to 7th grade in most of the eastern block commie countries not that long ago. In the meanwhile they've "westernized" also. In other words, they now attend twice as much school and get half as much education. IMHO, its all the more reason to teach your own kids, presuming, of course, that you've got some actual knowledge to impart and can offer them a good start in the experience that is life and didn't just breed pointlessly as most humans today do.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Makes me wonder what part of the core curriculum should be dropped to accommodate it, or how many new days should be added to the school year for this, or how many minutes should be added to the school day for first-aid trai
Re:YES!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
If they can spend a week in gym discussing STDs (at least my high school did), can't see why they can't take one week to teach some first aid. After all, aren't physical education teachers supposedly taught some themselves to hold the position?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
At least that way most of adult population has some idea of first aid. Though most things are soon forgotten, there's a good likelihood that at least someone from passers-by will know what to do.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
DaedalusHKX (660194): Yes... I'm having difficulty controlling THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE.
Re:YES!!! (Score:4, Funny)
He's suing the US Army for undermining his position. And he's including gay soldier porn with the filing.*
-nB
*because it's Jack: The aforementioned statement was not meant to represent that I know or spoke with Jack Thompson (who is known to file gay porn for some weird reason), nor is anything other than the statement that Jack sees some (weird) reason to file gay porn meant to be a statement of fact. It is this posters opinion that Jack is deranged enough to actually sue the US Army, and in his style would file gay porn, in addition I am positing that Jack would try to stay with the theme and make it gay soldier porn in his posting. If Jack is willing to go with Lesbian soldier porn I will consider reading his filing for spelling errors. Also this disclaimer and all of this post is this posters opinion and makes no assertions of fact or prior knowledge. This is because even though I believe my opinions are true, Jack may not. Then he would sue me. Then I would have to go make a violent video game of me dying via Gay Soldier Porn, to prove some weird point to Jack so he would donate to the charity of my choice (Shriners hospital in Sac CA please), then he would renege [joystiq.com] on it and PennyArcade [joystiq.com] would have to step up on it again.
And people say you can't learn anything from games (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And people say you can't learn anything from ga (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Don't try this at home (Score:5, Insightful)
Good Samaritan laws (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Like hospitals? (Score:2, Insightful)
If I were a doctor in America I wouldn't go near a dying patient. I'd be bound to get the blame. It's that old adage, you can do a thousand rights, but one wrong and you are disgraced. Sadly, in todays world, I'd probably just walk on by lest there be a lawsuit if I tried to help and failed.
You know a lot of schools, and workplaces aren't even allowed to stock standard
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
As far as rendering first aid to an accident victim, most states have a Good Samaritan law which exempts the person trying to render first aid from legal recourse. The game maker probably has some extremely small print disclaimer somewhere which states that they can not be held liable for anything in or resulting from participating in the game. It wouldn't suprise me if the disclaimer probably states something along the
Re:Don't try this at home (Score:4, Informative)
There are limits to what a non-certified person can do. At least thats I'm taught when I get re-certified every year, that it will prevent you from being sued under the good samaritan law, in Indiana at least.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People are close on good samaritan laws, but not exact (at least going by what they've told me every time I've taken a first aid course here in California). There are two legal issues to consider.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Don't try this at home (Score:4, Informative)
Yes they do. Your statement is absolutely FALSE. IAAMS (I am a medical student), and this exact question was in one of my Board exam review books. If you drive by a roadside accident, if you are a doctor/nurse/etc then OF COURSE you should be encouraged to help out since you're the one with the knowledge. I mean, this game player did a great thing, but I'm sure an EMS guy driving by would be even better, you know? And Good Samaritan Laws are there to help you do this good deed. You aren't being compensated, and you can't be punished either.
Propaganda (Score:3, Interesting)
All in the name of making an army recruitment tool seem like a benefit to society.
Re: (Score:2)
So... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Propaganda (Score:5, Interesting)
It's almost certainly not propaganda, because it sites a very specific and verifiable incident (and gives the guys name), but either way, it's harmless. No one's playing a game where they get shot all the time and then deciding they want some of that in the real world. The only reason AA is still around is because the Army is essentially the mother of all bureaucracies, and even useless projects frequently don't get cut.
And as an aside, the medic training in the game IS informative. I now know not to give cold water to people suffering from heatstroke (apparently they can go into shock).
Re: (Score:2)
Yes you can learn things (Score:5, Funny)
Basic First Aid (Score:5, Insightful)
At least learn how to control bleeding and perform CPR.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The headline could just have been "man sued for improperly using first aid techniques he learned from a video game".
- RG>
Re: (Score:2)
The headline could just have been "man sued for improperly using first aid techniques he learned from a video game".
Can you be sued for e.g. trying to stop heavy bleeding or doing CPR in the US? And if so, can you be sued if you don't? (e.g. because you're afraid to be sued)
Re:Basic First Aid (Score:4, Informative)
However, if you are going to sue for a stupid reason, your lawyer should be responsible for telling you that you are filing a frivolous case, and not to pursue it. Most lawyers wont take a paper-thin case, but some would rather try for the money. Pursuing frivolous lawsuits is a black mark against them, and if they do it too often they risk being disbarred.
Re: (Score:2)
I believe it (Score:2)
Let's just hope... (Score:5, Funny)
Depends on the state (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Depends on the state (Score:5, Informative)
Not surprising, not as good as a first aid course (Score:4, Insightful)
For example it's easy to learn the wrong thing from a TV show. Try and play MacGyver for instance and things might go pear shaped. More subtley here in Australia the number for emergency services is 000, but we have had critically ill people receive delayed medical care because people have dialed 911 after watching American TV.
Why should games be any different? They're interactive so if the simulation is accurate they should be better at teaching us how to react to a situation.
However like television, usually the primary reason people play games is for entertainment not education. I'm not a betting man but I'd be surprised if you couldn't pick up many many more skills by doing a weekend firstaid course than by playing Americas Army.
Re:Not surprising, not as good as a first aid cour (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes they made some rudimentary attempt but that doesn't mean that doing the things he did won't get you into trouble.
I was watching a couple of episodes with my wife last night. The character fixed a brake canister gasket with a piece of PVC. Not recommended even for a temporary fix
Re: (Score:2)
So maybe there will be a worldwide standard someday!
Re: (Score:2)
Because our government is a bureaucratic mess.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There should be a single International standard. However take responsibility for your own actions. Traveling internationally and assuming that things work the same way overseas as they do in your country is dangerously stupid. Many countries distribute literature at the airports (welcome to such and such country) that outlines
Qualifying as a Medic (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Qualifying as a Medic (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Pong and "both ways in the snow" comments coming in 3, 2, 1...
Re: (Score:2)
BF2 is not so good in this area (Score:5, Funny)
A buddy of mine got knocked out when I threw a first aid kit and it hit him on the head.
And the shock paddles only made things worse.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
One day I was driving down the road when my car turned off. Turned out the timing belt snapped. Good thing I was a squad leader because I just requested a vehicle drop and the commander delivered right away. While I used that car a fellow teammate started to fix my other car with a "magic wrench".
Before Patch 1.3 this was not possible for cars to be dropped. Thank goodness for this new gift from EA.
Well, I think I killed the humor but I'll post this anyway...
Valuable skills (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Valuable skills (Score:5, Funny)
BF2 Encouraged me to become a medic (Score:4, Interesting)
It fostered in me a desire to obtain basic medical skills. Just as it is helpful to be able to revive your comrad in the game, I thought it would be helpful to be able to render real aid to a person in an accident.
So I registered for an EMT-B certification class and after about 120 hours of class time and 24 hours of on-site training, I was qualified to take the exam and am now a certified EMT-B and considering pursing the certification all the way up to paramedic.
I will do it only on a volunteer basis - I already have a profession - but it is a worthwile skill and I am glad I obtained it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
1. Any person trained to render emergency medical care, such as an EMT or paramedic. (Chiefly American.) Probably derives from #2.
2. A soldier trained to render emergency medical care under combat conditions. (Chiefly American.)
3. A physician. (Chiefly British.)
Ah, language!
Leave it to the pros except for immediate danger (Score:5, Informative)
Paxton Galvanek pulled one of the passengers out of the smoking car, then found another bleeding heavily from his hand where his fingers had been lost during the crash.
A very, very VERY important rule regarding assisting someone who is injured, and this applies to bike, pedestrian vs. car, car vs. car, and motorcycle accidents:
Unless someone's life is in IMMEDIATE danger, do not move them, especially if they are unconscious. Immediate danger means the car is on fire, for example, AND unconscious. If the are in immediate danger but conscious, ASSIST them (ie, help open the door or smash the window, cut the belt, etc but let them move themselves. If they are in no danger but conscious, encourage them to LIE STILL; shock keeps them from feeling injuries. Leave everything you can to those trained in what to do.
For example, the first thing bystanders LOVE to do is rip off a motorcyclist's helmet. Helmets are pretty snug and this causes a lot of pull on their neck/spine. If they've' got a neck/back injury, you can turn them from "I'll walk in a few weeks after an operation" to "I'll be in a wheelchair the rest of my life because you ripped apart my spinal cord trying to be a hero." The rule for helmets is simple: if they're breathing, it stays on. If they stop breathing, that takes priority. Some motorcycle riders are now installing inflatable bladders that harmlessly lift the helmet off their head and have a blood-pressure-cuff inflator attachment for the crew to use, and some ambulances are equipping themselves with the version that can be slipped up into the helmet.
Many riders put labels on their helmets that say "DO NOT REMOVE MY HELMET UNLESS I HAVE STOPPED BREATHING" because all of the idiot bystanders who think it's important to do.
Also: fire extinguishers are meant to be used to save people, not save cars. If you have someone trying to get out of a car that has a small fire in the engine compartment and you use up the extinguisher trying to put it out- now you have someone still in the car, a fire, and an empty extinguisher. If you have one, use it to protect people in the car should the fire spread far enough while someone else assists the occupants in getting out.
BAD ADVICE (Score:2, Informative)
This is contrary to my first aid training. The rule I learnt (and this was a first aid course taken less than a year ago) was that if you find someone unconscious, you put them in the recovery position if (or once) they're breathing. The risk of someone suffocating is greater than any potential damage you might do to them in moving them.
I've just looked it up (DK First Aid Manual authorised by the British Red C
advice is for untrained bystanders (Score:2)
This is contrary to my first aid training. The rule I learnt (and this was a first aid course taken less than a year ago) was that if you find someone unconscious, you put them in the recovery position if (or once) they're breathing. The risk of someone suffocating is greater than any potential damage you might do to them in moving them.
The advice is for bystanders, not trained medical personnel.
Context: fun for the whole family!
Re:BAD ADVICE (Score:5, Informative)
A person who is unconscious due to drowning, poisoning (including alcohol overdose), or unknown reasons that do not obviously result from trauma (probably some internal medical condition, cardiovascular or neurological) certainly should be should be placed in the recovery position. But a person who is unconscious due to trauma, such as a motor vehicle accident or a fall or a blow to the head, emphatically should not be moved without proper equipment -- at least a cervical collar, preferably c-collar and backboard -- used by trained medical personnel. It takes a fair amount of trauma to the brain to cause unconsciousness in an otherwise healthy person, and the chance that the trauma involved also caused some spinal injury is very, very high.
I'm speaking here as a former USAF medic and civilian EMT with ten years' experience in emergency response. If you don't believe me, ask any ER/Casualty doctor or nurse -- I guarantee you'll get the same answer.
Re: (Score:2)
Unless someone's life is in IMMEDIATE danger, do not move them, especially if they are unconscious
This is contrary to my first aid training. The rule I learnt (and this was a first aid course taken less than a year ago) was that if you find someone unconscious, you put them in the recovery position if (or once) they're breathing. The risk of someone suffocating is greater than any potential damage you might do to them in moving them.
You may well have learned that. In actuality, the rolling of a person into that position is designed to have the least possible risk of spinal cord injuries. The course did though tell you not to move (as in drag them around, lift them, etc) unless absolutely necessary. (They are in imminent danger, or there is absolutely no possibility of assistance arriving in a useful time frame (for example out hiking in the woods, cell phone cannot connect to 911, and going to find help would result in a high risk of
Re:Leave it to the pros except for immediate dange (Score:2)
On the other hand, if that fire gets to the fuel line, you could have a fuel tank explosion on your hands - it's not the fireball-o-rama that you see on TV, but it will throw the car into the air, and probably kil
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
IF you've been taught proper procedures though, the helmet will come off if the person is unconscious; you need access to the airway whether they're breathing or not.
Why the hell would anyone on the side of the road need "access to someone's airway" if they're breathing, and said bystanders have no medical equipment (unless, of course, there's a Rescue Rodger on the scene.) The only reason you remove a person's helmet if they've been in a motorcycle crash is because you need to perform CPR to keep them
Re: (Score:2)
I used to be a firefighter. Please, if you have the fire extinguisher available and the fire is small enough to knock it out early: use it. Saving it until the end, as the OP is suggesting, won't work as the fire has now grown beyond the capability of your typical 5# dry chem extinguisher to put out.
People aren't trained to know what is 'in capability of a typical 5lb dry chem unit', and they're almost never trained in how to use an extinguisher effectively. What if they try to fight it, and fail? Now
I need training from America's Army like I need... (Score:2)
Does AA have a Cardboard Box? (Score:2, Funny)
You can infiltrate classified military installations by disguising yourself as an innocuous cardboard box. There's nothing more indispensable than a pack of smokes. And nothing in the entire arsenal of the Military-Industrial Complex is as singularly lethal as a ninja.
Sorry, but here come some sour grapes (Score:2)
Great, he elevated the arm, but I hope he had good reason to move that other guy, because that was *really* dangerous (I'm hoping the smoke was in the passenger compartment and it was truly required, otherwise the guy should be smacked, not praised).
But did
From your friendly neighborhood ER doctor (Score:3, Insightful)
Never apply a tourniquet unless the bleeding is 1) immediately life threatening and 2) cannot be controlled in any other way. The best way to control bleeding is direct pressure - which can stop 99% of significant external bleeding. Tourniquets not only cause nerve damage, but if there is an amputation, they can cause ischemic damage to healthy tissue which may decrease the chance of a successful reattachment or make the ultimate amp
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is a reason that Brady Emergency Care actually states that you should not transport a live venomous snake with you in the ambulance. Anyone with common sense woul
In keeping with the modern trend for convergence (Score:2)
I have the best advice of all!!! (Score:5, Informative)
note: +5 informative doesn't mean it's reputable
Nah. (Score:4, Funny)
heal one (Score:2)
What I learned from AA (Score:3, Funny)
Bullshit Puff Piece? (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention that pulling somebody from a car without first figuring out what their injuries are is a fucking bad idea, unless the car is about to explode (hint: it isn't, unless you're in a movie).
Re:Lawsuits? (Score:5, Informative)
The best thing to do is to stop, observe, and call 911. Trying to do anything else in a car accident situation is almost always going to cause more harm than good.
And in the US, most states have good samaritan laws so that if you are acting in good faith, you are not liable. A few places have laws that compel you to render assistance as well, but they are normally only enforced on TV shows like Seinfeld.
Re:Lawsuits? (Score:5, Informative)
The above isn't as much care as a paramedic or hospital can provide, but good initial response is critical for the safety and health of the victim. If your airway is blocked and you are not breathing, you're facing brain damage within 5 minutes. If you get moved improperly when you have a spinal injury, you're more likely to end up in a wheelchair.
I spent 3 years as a volunteer ski patroller, and 3 years as a volunteer firefighter for a department which averaged a few first medical response calls a week. Sure, I've received a lot more training in the past than a one day course can provide - just my spinal management ticket alone took me a weekend. However, anyone with a recent one day first aid training course can be ready to stop a major bleed, apply CPR, and monitor vital signs so that paramedics know if the victim's condition is deteriorating. Most importantly of all, a trained individual can prevent some stupid and misguided untrained know-it-all (and many such idiots exist) from doing something stupid such as improperly moving a patient with a potential spinal injury, etc.
I strongly believe that everyone should at least have a basic level of first aid training, and carry a small first aid kit in their cars. I carry a lot more than a basic kit, but it provides me a higher level of comfort knowing that I'll have both the tools and the training that I need in event of an emergency. There is nothing sadder to hear than the story of parents whose child died from an incident that basic first aid training could have managed, but they either stood by helplessly, or even worse, exacerbated the situation with their improper efforts to help their child.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I also feel that first aid courses that put a serious focus on vehicle accident response should be a mandatory part of obtaining a driver's license. I'd
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not only are you wrong, but you're answer is dangerous.
I strongly believe that everyone should at least have a basic level of first aid training
And almost no one does. And what someone who either doesn't know what they are doing or did know and has forgotten would do more than likely will make the situation worse.
In the event of a car accident, the first thing the professionals do (and I am one, and you are not), is to stabalize the spinal cord. The first thing an untrained person would probably try to do is drag the person from the car, possibly killing them in the process.
The sad thing is that quite a few people with some training would do the same thing, because their training did not cover that. Indeed, the local American Red Cross CPR/First-Aid Instructor mentioned how there where some useful or important things she knew but was not allowed to tell us in the course because the American Red Cross forbids teaching certain things at the lower-level courses because they fear it may confuse the average person (average idiot).
Re: (Score:2)
Ensure that the victim does not move - that can cause more injury, especially in a crash where spinal trauma is expected, such as any vehicle collision. They may also be able to stabilize the person to prevent accidental movement.
That sounds pretty close to what you are saying here:
In the event of a car accident, the first thing the professionals do (and I am one, and you are not), is to stabalize the spinal cord. The first thing an untrained person would probably try to do is drag the person from the car, possibly killing them in the process.
Re: (Score:2)
"Doctor, aren't you going to help?"
"No, ma'am, some guy on slashdot said I didn't have to."
- RG>
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If I'm ever confronted with the profile of a T-34 and mis-recognize it as a T-44, that'll RUIN my day, absolutely RUIN it, I tell you!
Re: (Score:2)