Microsoft Upgrades Vista Kernel in SP1

KrispySausage writes "One of the big features discussed in early speculation of Windows Vista SP1 was the kernel upgrade, which was supposed to bring the operating system into line with the Longhorn kernel used in Windows Server 2008. With Vista SP1 going RTM, there hasn't been so much as a peep from Microsoft about the mooted kernel update. Has it happened? Well the answer is yes it has. Presumably the main reason for Microsoft's silence on the subject is that as they're keen to promote the improvements and enhancements to Vista, rather than placing emphasis on a kernel upgrade, which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

confused

[farkus888]

I thought "improvements and enhancements" was MS marketing speak for "newly-introduced instability".

Re:confused

[hazem]

I've always figured that the period after they declare they'll no longer support the product is that sweet spot when it will finally function predictably.

Re:confused

[wile_e_wonka]

It's interesting you say that--I just installed the release candidate for SP3 on my XP VM, and I'll tell you--it made a huge difference to the performance of XP. It now functions just fine with the meager amount of RAM I allotted to it, and it functions well with Office 2007 (i.e., it doesn't take forever to open or run slow) despite, once again, the meager amount of RAM I allow it to use.

And, of course, as you noted, XP is losing support next year--just as it's running better than ever!

Re:confused

[Joe U]

And, of course, as you noted, XP is losing support next year--just as it's running better than ever!

No, it's not. Microsoft supports all operating systems for 2 years past the last service pack.

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223 [microsoft.com]

Re:confused

[Joe U]

Ok, I don't like replying to myself, but I didn't do enough research.

When a new service pack is released, Microsoft will provide either 12 or 24 months of support for the previous service pack
When support for a product ends, support of the service packs for that product will also end. The product's support lifecycle supersedes the service pack support policy

Windows has a 24 month policy

Mainstream support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/14/2009, which means they're not going to sell it or add new features to the core OS.

Extended support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/8/2014, which means no new updates at all past that point.

Re:

[mrxak]

Well, maybe whatever comes after Vista (if it even comes out in a reasonable amount of time) will replace my Bootcamp XP by 2014.

Re:

[shokk]

Always skip one version of the OS. In my case I went from Win98 to WinXP.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure that's skipping two versions. Skipping one version would have landed you with WinME (98 > 2000 > ME > XP in release date order), and no one would be bragging about that "upgrade"...

Re:

[sconeu]

That skipped 2 versions (depending on upgrade path).

Me and 2000. Though I hesitate to call LoseMe an OS. Win2K on the other hand was (and still is) very good. I'm still running 2KPro on my home box.

Re:confused

[Sancho]

The product lines (not from the beginning, obviously):

Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> Windows ME -> Windows XP
Windows NT 3.51 -> Windows NT 4.0 -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP

Although Windows 2000 was really quite usable for most home users (compared to NT4, especially), it was not considered a home-user OS. That niche was filled by Windows ME. The OSs were even released within the same year (about 6 months apart in 2000, if I remember correctly.) XP came just a year later.

Re:

[miffo.swe]

I skipped all of them and went Linux instead. Do i win something?

Re:

[sonofagunn]

On my old as heck home PC I have Windows 2000 and still receive software updates with security, performance, and stability updates. Pentium III, 500 Mhz, 384 MB RAM and it works fine for MS Office Pro and Opera.

Re:

[afidel]

Well, Windows 2000 is currently in extended support which means technically only security related patches are supposed to be released for it, and that stops Jan 2010 I believe. This was a big problem for many companies as MS refused to issue a standard patch for the DST updates for Windows 2000. They had a convoluted manual/policy based process which didn't allow for easy confirmation that systems were updated. XP will enter this same quasi-supported phase in August of next year.

Re:

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Of course, as a media center (and only as a media center) it's actually the best option right now,

What do you mean, "as a media center"? Can you not use Debian/Ubuntu or something?

Re:confused

[KillerBob]

What do you mean, "as a media center"? Can you not use Debian/Ubuntu or something?

No. I can't.

I'm talking about as an HTPC, and there's hardware in my system that simply doesn't work with Linux. There are absolutely no drivers for NEC-based TV tuner cards, such as my AverMedia M780. It's a gorgeous card... generates *much* less heat than a similar Hauppauge card does *especially when viewing 1080i HDTV*, better picture, and better ATSC reception than anything else I've tried. Absolutely the best TV tuner card I've found. But it's simply not supported by Linux. And switching to Hauppauge or something else isn't an option, because this is a passively cooled silent PC, and having a tuner card with a block temperature 30'C hotter than the M780 is out of the question.

There *are* Linux-based HTPC options. MythTV, for example. But the lack of support for some of the hardware I have in my system is a deal-breaker. What's the point of having a PVR/HTPC that doesn't have a working TV tuner?

So my HTPC/Media Center runs on Vista. Because in that respect, Vista is better than XP: the interface is better laid out and more intuitive. But in my experience, that's the only way in which it's better.

consumer vs. geek

[eck011219]

Not to mention that almost everything they've done to promote Vista has been aimed at the end-user, the joe-blow consumer. That user has no idea what the kernel is or why they should care -- it's just geeky mumbo-jumbo that would scare their target Vista audience.

Re:

[farkus888]

now that I have my joke out of the way, thats right mods it was a joke not a trolling attempt. I really think you are probably right about their motive.

Re:

[daem0n1x]

There's an answer to that. Just promote the word "kernel" until it sounds cool.

"Hey, dude. I just bought a new PC with a fuckin' great kernel, like 100.000 Gigasomething, and all. Yeah, Microsoft rocks!"

Anecdote:
Valves (or tubes) are cool in the music equipment scene, forget that 90% of the buyers have no idea what a valve is, or what's for. In a subway station near me there used to be a shitty little instrument store. One of the items in exhibition was a lousy solid-state guitar amplifier with a

Re:

[octopus72]

Or maybe it just reminds too much of Linux. (i.e. now MS imitates the Linux upgrade model)

Re:consumer vs. geek

[swordgeek]

Honestly, the user SHOULDN'T care!

Back in 'the day', Bill Joy said "Operating systems are like underwear - Nobody really wants to look at them." This was true until Linux started getting attention, and MS turned their efforts to becoming a 10-ton monster by selling OSes. Since then, the word OS has morphed into meaning a feature-rich (feature-laden?) bundles of applications along with the software infrastructure required to run them. (Whereas formally the OS is really just the infrastructure itself.)

Now we're talking about kernels. NOBODY other than developers and support folks should need to care about their kernel. In fact, most people don't know what a kernel actually is, and that's OK. In fact, it's even good--it's pointless knowledge for end users.

I'm not one to support MS, but not blathering on about the kernel in end-user release notes is the right thing to do.

Risky Business

[PrescriptionWarning]

"which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!

Re:Risky Business

[spun]

"which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."

now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!

LOOKOUT! The guy in the back has a CHAIR! It's Ballmer, everybody DUCK!

Risk...

[Khyber]

When adding ANY code, there is risk of security vulnerabilities and potential exploits. Sadly, most people seem to not know this.

Re:

[joeflies]

While any code can introduce risk for security vulnerabilities and exploits, I think the point is that people would rather have patches for KNOWN security vulnerabilities and potential exploits.

Re:

[Tony Hoyle]

I just provided a new exit() function and changed the library search path to find my library first. Your machine is pwned.

What?!

[ledow]

Seriously, you're telling me that a version number jump in the kernel during a Service Pack is somehow news? And not only that but *unconfirmed* reports of that. *With screenshots*. Wow.

And what does it do. What does the new 0.0.1 add to Windows? Dunno. There isn't a word about it in the article, just some screenshots of version numbers.

How the bloody hell does this make the front page?

Re:

[Dada]

What I find most surprising is that Slashdot's headline is quite tame compared to the source "article". Usually it's the opposite.

I've been out of the loop for a while... What's the geek news site that has replaced Slashdot? There must be one... Of course that's a rethorical question: anybody who found it would be there and would've stopped reading /. altogether.

Re:

[calebt3]

What I find most surprising is that Slashdot's headline is quite tame compared to the source "article". Usually it's the opposite.

You aren't implying that the editor read the article and deemed the title too strong? Blasphemy!

Re:

[Jugalator]

I agree. Horrible article. I looked for new info about what the kernel upgrade had, but he didn't know...? WTF?

That Windows Vista SP1 would have a kernel upgrade has been known for almost since the start of SP1, easily for months at least.

Articles have even already been written about what the new kernel contains. Even by Microsoft, something this guy doesn't seem to even know!

Here's the deal, although in some sort of "prerelease" form:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599 [microsoft.com]

Re:

[Jugalator]

Here's the deal, although in some sort of "prerelease" form:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599bac8184a/kernel-en.doc [microsoft.com]

Oops, sorry, that isn't quite it, it's for the SP1-less Vista and Server Longhorn. Well, some parts of it may apply, because Vista SP1 *is* largely the "Windows Server Longhorn" kernel, now named Windows Server 2008.

Here's something that should be a bit more accurate:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/f/4/a/f4a35b2b-2f62-4104-a3e6-5f7bc1318e9f/Notable%20changes%20in%20Windows%20Vista%20SP1.pdf [microsoft.com]

However, it again doesn't separate the changes in the kernel from the rest, but to a reasonably experienced pro

Re:

[dreamchaser]

We get posts that are 'newsworthy' every time the Linux kernel increments, so why not the Vista kernel?

I for one see it as a good thing, but yeah it's not newsworth. Anyone who's been following the development of SP1 even a little bit knew there would be a new kernel. That's good as it means MS is addressing bugs and other issues in the current kernel.

Re:

[SleeknStealthy]

I agree that the article is weak, but I downloaded the leaked rtm and installed it this past Saturday on my laptop. I had originally moved back to xp on the laptop because of the obvious performance problems with vista. However, sp1 makes a massive difference on a few different levels:
1. suspend / resume
2. memory consumption
3. Finally fixes the horrendous performance when copying files
4. Network performance is excellent even when listening to music.

Overall on a laptop that is not my primary computer I am

The Kernel can't be any better...

[the_skywise]

They didn't put any electrolytes in it...

Re:

[misleb]

They didn't put any electrolytes in it...

Please. SP1 has more electrolytes than your body has room for. It'll run so fast they'll think your computer is from Kenya!

Re:

[grcumb]

Please. SP1 has more electrolytes than your body has room for. It'll run so fast they'll think your computer is from Kenya!

Kenya? You mean, collapsing into flaming rubble in the fight for power and resources?

I was kind of hoping to see a performance review..

[ip_freely_2000]

..of SP1 RTM, kind of like what the exo performance/xpnet people did late last year.

I am one of the many who switched back to XP..performance on my tablet stunk with Vista. However, I did like some of the ease-of-use mobility features, but it wasn't worth the grief of performance and drivers.

I would like to run Vista....I just need a compelling reason to do so.

Re:I was kind of hoping to see a performance revie

[afedaken]

Finally, another tablet user!

I occasionally game on my unit, so now I'm running an XP/Vista dual-boot, but msot of my work time is in Vista these days. For my unit, it doesn't seem to be appreciably slower than XP was, (but to be fair, I'm not running Aero Glass since the integrated graphics don't support it) and some of the features work noticeably better.

For me specifically:
- Handwriting Recognition is improved. (In both English, and Japanese.)
- Searching was greatly improved.
- Hibernation to file now restores properly every time.

System specs:
Toshiba R15-s822
1.6GHz Pentium M
160GB HD
2GB RAM
Vista Ultimate.

Would you tell me a bit more about your Vista experience? Specifically, was it the over-all experience that sent you running back to XP, or was it the tablet specific features?

Re:

[corerunner]

I love my ThinkPad X61 tablet :)

It arrived from the factory with Vista Business, but I became so fed up with issues connecting to wifi that I wiped it and installed XP Pro the same day. After a few weeks of struggling to use my new much-anticipated tablet functionality, and then using a friend's tablet that still had Vista Business, I decided to give Vista another shot. I can't believe I battled XP for so long--maybe the XP drivers are just shoddy for my model, but the tablet was practically unusable (eve

I dont get it

[BlowHole666]

I do not get it. On my Suse box I see Linux kernel updates all the time. So Microsoft Updated the kernel to match 2008. How do we not know the only difference between the two kernels was 10 lines of code or something? So the version/build number changed. We do not know what changed. Can a normal user tell exactly what the differences were between Windows 2000 and XP (NOTICE I SAID NORMAL USER!!!) no they can not. I do not think normal people (the majority of Microsoft's user base) will know the difference. Maybe someone working for an anti virus company will notice or maybe a slashdot reader but not the majority of the users. Honestly I think this is just more slashdot fud on the front page to bash Microsoft for doing something that Linux does every few months.

Re:I dont get it

[operagost]

Can a normal user tell exactly what the differences were between Windows 2000 and XP (NOTICE I SAID NORMAL USER!!!) no they can not.

Do "normal" users play games, have wireless networking, use webcams, unzip files, or switch between users?

Re:

[everphilski]

fast user switching?

My wife would notice that missing very quickly if we downgraded to 2000. And she would fall in the category of "normal user"

Re:

[oatworm]

Umm... one comes with the "Classic" theme and one comes with the Windows XP theme? One keeps nagging me about how I don't have anti-virus software or my firewall is disabled and the other one doesn't? One says "Windows XP" when it boots and the other one says "Windows 2000"?

The list kind of goes on like that.

Re:

[iONiUM]

Slashdot isn't for "normal people", thus this is news for "nerds". I think you mistyped fox.com if you were expecting news for "normals".

Re:

[dynamo52]

fox.com is not news for "normals". It is a calculated misrepresentation of facts for people who don't want there opinions challenged.

Or maybe because it doesn't matter much?

[Kjella]

It's long since I got excited about a Linux kernel update. Since I upgrade the kernel along with everything else perhaps it's hard to say, but on the plain non-virtualized desktop running conventional applications there aren't any revolutions going on. There's new drivers but in theory every USB device is already supported by Linux, it's the userland bits that are missing. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there's a lot of important developments going on, I just don't see it affecting me. Or if it does, it's some

Re:

[misleb]

I know Linux kernel devs have been switching up the schedulers lately. Well, last year or so. You could conceivably notice that and even get excited about it depending on how it helps multimedia and such. For any other OS, changing the process scheduler and pager would be a pretty big deal.

Of course, it *is* just the kernel. There is so much more to a modern OS that it is hard to stay focused on the kernel unless you're a developer.

-matthew

0.0001? Are you kidding?

[donutello]

That's how much you rev the version number by when all you are doing is fixing bugs that only required very minor code change.

That's just dumb

[Just Some Guy]

In other news, Linux v2.6.19.3 was released on February 5, 2007 (6 days after Vista). There have been 75 new kernel releases since then. Source: going to ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ [kernel.org] and counting ChangeLogs since then.

I'm not sure why this is news.

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

Look out --> person posts a truth about Linux vs. Windows and gets modded down.

What kind of frustrates me there is that I wasn't saying anything bad about Linux. I only wanted to point out that the Ubuntu desktop I'm using right now gets kernel updates from time to time, and I can't see why that's good for me but bad for Windows users. Maybe I wasn't overly critical enough of Microsoft to satisfy the mod?

Honestly, this really is stupid. There are plenty of legitimate things to hold against Microsoft. Periodically releasing kernel updates isn't one of them. I mean, imagine the

Re:

[_Sprocket_]

What kind of frustrates me there is that I wasn't saying anything bad about Linux. I only wanted to point out that the Ubuntu desktop I'm using right now gets kernel updates from time to time, and I can't see why that's good for me but bad for Windows users. Maybe I wasn't overly critical enough of Microsoft to satisfy the mod?

If I were to guess - I'd say trying to turn this in to a "Windows vs. Linux" thing was the first issue for negative moderation. ;) But now that you're hell bent on this path...

I'm not sure this is even an issue. As you noted, it's not a bad thing. But it does kind of highlight some of the cultural differences between Windows and Linux (or Microsoft and Ubuntu / Canonical in this case). Finding a kernal update in Windows takes sleuthing. A kernel update for your Linux distro is normal business. What y

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

I'd say trying to turn this in to a "Windows vs. Linux" thing was the first issue for negative moderation.

I was actually trying to turn it away from that.

Re:

[kilgortrout]

The difference is that with ubuntu, you, and more importantly, developers, can know exactly what has changed in the new kernel and how that may, or may not, potentially impact performance of other applications. With MS updates you never know and they have a terrible history of breaking things with their updates and doing nothing about it.

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

and every time I've updated the kernel I've had to reconfigure VMware

You can't expect proprietary software to be well integrated into an OS its authors don't control.

What would be the difference?

[jandrese]

What is the difference between the Vista and Longhorn kernels? What advantage would I see from this upgrade? Is it more stable? Are there features (scheduling features I'd guess, better realtime support maybe?) that Vista doesn't currently have? Other than the danger of introducing new and exciting bugs, why do I even care?

Re:What would be the difference?

[cnettel]

This is in the area of Really Bad Analogies, but bear with me anyway: Windows 2003 was the followup to XP. Quite a few users who got their hands (ahem...) on Windows 2003 think that it is a very solid workstation OS, handling a few situations better than XP. If blatantly ignoring the lack of drivers, XP64 (which is derived from the 2003 codebase) is also solid. More polish went into handling high-load cases and simple bugfixing, things that were never justified to backport to XP. (SP2 carried over some things and added a few, so until Windows 2003 SP1 was released, there were two clear forks again with non-overlapping features.)

What does this mean for Vista SP1? Well, there should be very little reason to use Windows 2008 as a desktop OS. One could imagine that some geek/pro user workloads (network/disk I/O, anyone?) might be improved. On the other hand, these changes should already be in the SP release candidates, and the reviews of those haven't shown any big changes. A practical concern would be that the platforms should be similar from now on, like in the W2K days. I guess that will make at least some hardware vendor developers happy. Maybe this will also mean that additional hotfixes more acutely needed for server scenarios will trickle down to Vista.

Desktop Kernel Instability?

[mpapet]

That's some kind of contradiction along the lines of "military intelligence." I kid.

Slightly off topic:
Vista desktop + openldap win32 binaries + apache and bind = GNU Windows Server?

openldap on win32: http://www.openldap.org/lists/openldap-software/200705/msg00152.html [openldap.org]
apache2: http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi [apache.org]
kerberos5: http://web.mit.edu/Kerberos/kfw-3.2/kfw-3.2.2.html [mit.edu]

Granted, the average win32 admin will hit a wall because Microsoft does not design their product, documents and services for an admin

Re:

[RightSaidFred99]

Openldap/kerberos5/apache2 opens many, many more security/identity/authentication possibilities than Microsoft's active directory.

Name them. Seriously. Name just a few, I'm not even going to ask for "many, many more". Just a few, a handful.

I was joking, I know you can't because you were talking out of your ass. Windows 2008+Active Directory is some hard core shit.

Re:

[mpapet]

Name them.
Interoperability.

Windows 2008+Active Directory is some hard core shit.
Not really.

It's clear you really don't understand what you/your employer over-paid for.

Standardize code base

[athloi]

From the article:

So if you look at it one way, the Windows Vista "kernel upgrade" isn't a fundamental update, but rather, an alignment of the two operating systems.

This is a smart move. It's easier to develop one kernel than two, so standardizing the two made sense. They've had more time to beat on Server 2008 and test it, and are incorporating those changes.

The end user won't see this, but the end user doesn't care. Their flashy GUI and UAC (snicker) will run faster as a result.

FAIL

[EddyPearson]

First of all, I don't want to use Vista. I now run a half crippled XP because HP refuse point blank to supply XP drivers for this model.

Vista is a failure. Even though people complained non stop when XP came out, the adoption rate was MASSIVE when compared to Vista.

Microsoft: From the moment the very first Longhorn alpha were leaked to P2P networks, and people got a taste of the new MS vision, Vista was doomed to fail. Even though there was a complete rewrite, it was all downhill from this point.

I suggest y

Re:

[Toreo asesino]

Vista is a failure. Even though people complained non stop when XP came out, the adoption rate was MASSIVE when compared to Vista.

Got any sources for that? I've heard the opposite that's all, or at least it's doing not badly - http://blogs.pcworld.com/techlog/archives/003944.html [pcworld.com]

Re:

[everphilski]

HP notebook?

I'm running a Compaq, recently took over by HP ... look at some of the (slightly) older or (slightly) beefier models of the notebook you are running, and download their XP drivers (they have XP drivers available on other models). 9 times out of 10, it'll work. That's how I got XP running on my Compaq laptop.

That being said ... after a few weeks of tinkering, I deleted the XP partition and stuck with Vista. It really was a comparable experience in the speed and stability department, and offer

Ignore HP...

[TheHawke]

...and go after the reference drivers for your components. Pull the make and model numbers off of your chips that you need drivers for and head after them via Google.

Re:FAIL

[domatic]

First of all, I don't want to use Vista. I now run a half crippled XP because HP refuse point blank to supply XP drivers for this model.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the drivers don't exist. They'll be harder to find though. Here's what you do:

1. Go to Control Panel -> System
2. Click on the Hardware tab
3. Click the Device Manager button
4. For each device with a Red X or Yellow !
        a. Right Click and get Properties
        b. Click the Details tab
        c. Select "Matching Device ID" from the dropdown.

5. Shake Google for those Strings. Sometimes you'll hit paydirt just searching for the part before the ampersand.

You can also use tools like AIDA32 and Unknown Device Identifier to identify the hardware. Once you've identified your hardware, you'll probably do OK with the actual manufacturer's reference drivers. While it's possible that a vendor like HP is using slightly bastardized versions of standard chipsets that thus require custom drivers, that usually isn't the case. You may even be able to get the drivers from HP themselves if there are similar models that were supplied with XP.

"Complete rewrite" a myth

[SEMW]

Even though there was a complete rewrite...

No, there wasn't. The only person who has ever claimed that Vista is a complete rewrite was Twitter. The Vista kernel is just a modified and updated Server 2003 kernel (not, of course, that that's a bad thing). There was originally talk of larger low-level changes, but they were scrapped back in 2004.

If Vista SP1 is based on 2008 Server

[Orion Blastar]

are the 2008 Server changes made to address the incompatibility issues Vista had with older software? If they are, then great.

What I had originally heard was that Windows 2008 Server and Vista SP1 were going to be based on XP code for compatibility issues in order to make the OS more stable and more compatible. I am not sure how much XP code was used on the new kernel.

Since I support many friends and family members who have Vista machines, I am thinking of buying a new PC with Vista preinstalled on it, and hopefully SP1 to see if it fixes the problems that the original Vista had. As I recall the original XP also had instability issues and compatibility issues and XP SP1 fixed those, and then XP SP2 made even more improvements and made XP more stable and more compatible.

What I hope is that Vista SP1 ends up being what the original Vista had promised. The only thing is the hardware requirements for Vista are 3 times or more the requirements that XP had. So of course upgrading an XP machine to Vista is going to run it slower. Vista on a newer machine made in 2007/2008 should run a lot better than Vista on a 2004/2005/2006 machine.

If all else fails, I hope that ReactOS [reactos.org] is developed into a stable build in 2008/2009 some time. People need to keep an eye on that open sourced OS. Once it goes into beta testing, it is in alpha right now, but 0.4 or 0.5 will enter Beta testing and be good enough to use as an alternative to Windows.

Keep in mind that Windows 2008 Server is based on Windows 2003 Server, which was based on Windows XP. Windows Vista was not based on Windows XP, but was a rewrite attempt. Vista and Longhorn are actually too different projects, Vista was a rewrite of Windows, while Longhorn was based on Windows XP. At least that is what I heard.

Re:

[Erwos]

As far as I'm aware, that's not true. Microsoft ditched the "two separate kernel paths" paradigm with Windows XP. Longhorn _should_ be just a derivative of Vista, albeit a much more polished one. The system is pretty obvious at this point - consumer release (XP), server release (Server 2003), consumer release (Vista), server release (Server 2008). All they're doing is putting the newer Server 2008 kernel into Vista, no different than upgrading my kernel in Linux.

I'm definitely open to someone with a source

Re:

[Overzeetop]

I have a relative who does a lot of MS work (server install, maintenance for hire, troubleshooting), and is pretty damned good at it. He put 2008 on his laptop last spring after being completely disappointed with Vista. He told me it was actually very good, with performance and usability bonuses over 2003 on identical hardware. He still runs it as his preferred laptop OS.

You have to wonder

[bogie]

If that was a good idea. Microsoft spent so much time replacing things that worked with XP, for example Networking, that on Vista they were not mature at launch. I'm sure the new kernel is actually a nice piece of work, but IMHO they should wait until Windows Server 2008 SP1 then replace the kernel on Vista with one that is leaner and proven to be stable.

You know it's not that we don't like new features and upgrades, it's just that by 2007-2008 we expected Microsoft to be better at designing OSs. Should they get an automatic pass with every OS release just because "hey, you know they will get it right by SP2". I say phooey to that. Demand more.

Service Pack 1

[kellyb9]

Microsoft Windows Vista SP1:
Codenamed: XP

Kernel Panic?

[ruiner13]

Maybe they didn't tell anyone because they were afraid that people would start to kernel panic about it.

I'll be hiding now.

How about speed?

[miffo.swe]

The thing that intrigues me is how they are going to fix the speed/memory issues without ripping DRM out. I have a hard time seeng other than smaller improvements in isolated areas as to Vistas performance less they rip/replace large parts of it. A new thorough benchmark comparing XP SP2 vs Vista SP1 would be very interesting. Does it still demand 2 GB to run smoothly under moderate load? Had one for testing on my desk a while ago (im a sysadmin) and frankly it was a real dog.

Dont get me started at audio issues in most games and audio applications, EAX? forgedaboutit!

Re:

[cbart387]

In case you haven't noticed ... Vista is a new OS and _not_ an incremental update of XP.

The overall design of it may be good but of course there is going to be bugs at this point in the game. It seems like everyone keeps forgetting how complicated an OS is.

Re:

[howlingmadhowie]

oh boo-hoo!

a company which makes 20 billion profit a year with 100000 employees cannot make a stable operating system, where as a couple of guys in their mother's basement (linux programmers) can.

forgive my incredulity here.

Re:

[Nebu]

a company which makes 20 billion profit a year with 100000 employees cannot make a stable operating system, where as a couple of guys in their mother's basement (linux programmers) can.

There are several problems with your (implied) argument. I'll only address one for now: You seem to be assuming that what most computer users want from their OS is stability, as opposed to, simply being the same as else's (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect [wikipedia.org])

Re:

[geekoid]

"It seems like everyone keeps forgetting how complicated an OS is."

Especially MS.

Changing the kernel is a big deal, And defiantly a reason for any large organization to hold off implementation.

While complicated, they ahve been done many times. It's not new and SHOULD be down to a science, literally.

Re:

[cbart387]

And yet they managed to introduce many of the same bugs that exist in XP.

Even though you're an Anonymous Coward I'll bite. Care to elaborate on these bugs?

Re:

[cbart387]

New OS huh?

Yes.

So they rewrote everything from scratch eh? Completely changed the way we use an operating system?

No and no.

All OSes these days are an evolutionary process. I would argue all software is.
This makes sense since re-inventing the wheel is a waste.

Agreed

Take the old stuff, make some improvements.

Depends.

You're right that a lot of software development is evolutionary. You try not to duplicate work that doesn't need duplicated. Just because don't write (anew) all the code does not imply that it's an update. You may have a good set of libaries that can be used. It's not all solely make improvements to old software. Sometimes the design of the system limits how well you can continue modifying it and then you have to redesign and rewrite it.

I do see where you're coming from,

Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready

[plague3106]

Maybe you should, you know, keep up. Network and sound drivers are both now userland. Network purposefully yields to the sound driver when its playing sound so you don't get choppy sound. There's a bug where it yields too much. And only if you're copying files on a LAN, IIRC. It was missed because they didn't do testing on a gbit network card.

This has been known almost since Vista's release... where have you been?

Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready

[NatasRevol]

"...where have you been?"

Waiting for his download to finish...

Re:

[ratboy666]

Quote
"they" didn't do testing on a gbit network card.

And, this means that *I* am supposed to? The reason I spend money on an OS is to assure that it has been tested; if I do the testing there are plenty of no-cost alternatives.

Quote

Network and sound drivers now userland.

Is this good? Back to the gbit network, that would be 100mbytes/second of data. Passed through kernel (i/o priviledged) layers

Re:

[ChronoReverse]

The reasoning is precisely because we have cheap and fast CPUs we can now sacrifice some performance (it doesn't take much to deal with fast ethernet) in order to get more stability. In the case of network and sound, driver faults, for instance, won't (shouldn't anyways) take down the system anymore. It's all theory of course, but I can see the reasoning at least.

Re:

[plague3106]

And, this means that *I* am supposed to? The reason I spend money on an OS is to assure that it has been tested; if I do the testing there are plenty of no-cost alternatives.

No, nobody said you should either. Yes, they fucked up by not testing this scenario well. It happens though; I know because I develop software for a living. FWIW, I tried the "no-cost" alternative. That only works if you're 1) lucky 2) buy hardware from a list of things known to work and 3) have lots of time to invest. No thanks.

Is

Re:

[koh]

Network purposefully yields to the sound driver when its playing sound so you don't get choppy sound.

Translation: their scheduler is crap.

"Either"???

[Moryath]

This is Micro$oft we're talking about. They fixed 20 exploitable things and put in 30 more exploitable things, but will refuse to admit the 30 in the name of "security through obscurity."

Re:Bias

[misleb]

As much as I hate (detest, revile) to admit that a good Vista is good for everyone in someways (slower viruses, etc.), ... oh wait. I can't get over hoping Vista dies a horrible flaming death. I don't mean to flame/troll... I know I'm biased.

I am similarly conflicted. On one hand I want the spectacle. On the other I know that I'm just going to have to support it over the phone for my parents.

And let me just head off anyone who is going to suggest "install Linux for them" or "get them to buy a mac..." I will say that I live thousands of miles away from them and, quite frankly, they're getting older and the change would probably be more trouble than it is worth.

-matthew

Re:

[caluml]

I live thousands of miles away from them

That's one of the arguments *for* installing Linux. Very easy to support remotely. Just whack Ubuntu on, and tell them it's Windows Vista or something.

Re:

[misleb]

That's one of the arguments *for* installing Linux. Very easy to support remotely. Just whack Ubuntu on, and tell them it's Windows Vista or something.

They're old, not stupid. Besides, supporting Linux isn't the issue. Just getting them to the point where supporting it is the only issue is the issue. My dad runs so much Windows-only crap that it isn't even funny. He's uses the computer for much more than web browsing and email.

OS X would be my first choice for them.

-matthew

Re:

[daem0n1x]

My dad is very conservative. I went to the store to help him buy a new laptop and he didn't follow my suggestion of buying a Mac. I almost convinced him of letting me install Linux but I needed some time and he was in a a hurry to take the laptop home, to the country.

Anyway, he hated Vista so much that he asked me to set it to the Windows 2000 look and feel. Even so, he has a fit every time one of those stupid popups comes up with some badly translated bullshit that he can't understand. I can't wait to

Re:

[zoips]

It's funny, when my mom was buying a new computer I tried to talk her out of buying a Mac, but she insisted. Turns out she hates it, she has trouble figuring out how to do things, nothing is where she expects it, etc. I find it hilarious that the operating system specifically marketed for "dummies" (not literally, but in the sense of computer neophyte) and she can't figure out how to make it do anything but has no problem with Windows XP. Go figure.

One of these times I'll try to get the old beta of Boot C

Re:

[daem0n1x]

Until they invent some machine to read your brain this problem will never be solved. Some guy wants the widgets to be on the left, the other prefers them on the right, etc.

Re:

[dn15]

What you consider to be easy depends somewhat on your learning style, but even more so on whether you learned the concepts or simply memorized some steps to do the task at hand. People who consider it difficult to switch between operating systems are people who have not learned how to use *computers*. They are people who know how to get around the OS they're used to by rote memorization.

No, I'm not saying your mom is dumb because she couldn't figure out Macs. But rather you can't rightly say Macs are confus

Re:

[msuarezalvarez]

did you just call me old?!

Re:

[jd]

Well, the GUI is so cumbersome, it's no wonder that even the viruses are slowed.

Re:good for vista or bad for 2008 server?

[kusanagi374]

What the hell are you talking about? Trollish troll is trollish eh?

Anyway, I'll bite. Windows Server 2008, like any decent server should have, is based on user permissions and if your user can't perform a given task, you can escalate to admin rights (OMG JUST LIEK SU!!) and do your thing. And obviously there won't be the same issues as on Vista because it won't be used as a desktop. At least it shouldn't be.

And the fact it's not a desktop means that the HD videos thing doesn't even matter.

Re:

[jonbryce]

The allow/deny stuff in 2008 server asks for your administrator password in much the same way that Red Hat does. It is an improvement over 2003 server in that you don't have to log out of your user account and log in as administrator to do admin stuff, you just elevate the privileges as you need them.

You won't be watching HD videos on 2008 server, and if 2003 is anything to go by, graphics performance won't be up to much anyway.

Re:

[Osty]

And even quoting Bott's highly controversial claims doesn't make the DRM FUD; it's there, and it does use cycles, and would be detrimental for a server kernel if it is using system resources uselessly.

The only cycles used by any DRM code is when you try to play back DRMed content. What are you doing playing video and audio on a server? Vista is to Win2k8 as Win2k Pro was to Win2k Server products, or Xp was to Win2k3. Win2k8 is not a desktop operating system.

Re:

[KillerBob]

The Vista kernel, is probibly the ONLY thing going good for it. ONLY. Nothing else seems to be some kind of 'improvement' The UI blows, Mabye a smidgen of DX10, interesting, but coming to XP, sureptitiously. BUT not on any production machine, or one that I cannot run multiple OSs on.

Media Center. As an HTPC operating system, Vista is, bar none, the best option right now. There's really no argument that Linux's driver support doesn't come close to Vista's driver support when it comes to support of products l

Re:

[fred fleenblat]

Tivo still uses linux under the hood. And the series 3 has all the HD goodies.
Okay, it's not a full-blown PC but sometimes less is more.

Re:

[ConceptJunkie]

It's funny, I recall at one point when NT4 was the latest version, the calculation for copying files was ridiculously inaccurate and would do all kinds of weird things like say "30 seconds remaining" for 5 minutes, etc. And then with one of the SPs it got a whole lot better. The funny thing is that in the years since, it seems to have gone backwards in actually being able to give me an estimate based on anything other than a guess.