JFK, LAX To Test Millimeter-Wave Scanners 235
Narrative Fallacy writes "The Transportation Security Administration has announced that it's beginning pilot tests of millimeter wave scanning technology at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK) that allow TSA personnel to see concealed weapons and other items that may be hidden beneath clothes. TSA Administrator Kip Hawley says that that the potentially revealing body scans (YouTube) would not be stored and that 90% of passengers subject to secondary screening opt for a millimeter wave scan over a pat-down. The agency added that security officers viewing the scans would do so remotely, where they will not be able to recognize passengers but will be able to trigger an alarm if needed. The agency also said that a blurring algorithm is applied to passengers' faces in scanned images as an additional privacy protection."
Just a Matter of Time... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just a Matter of Time... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Just a Matter of Time... (Score:5, Funny)
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"See Jessica Alba's naked body (as captured by airport security guards)!"
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(spoken in a squeaky high voice)
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Forcing me to submit to scans that can "strip" off my clothes is a violation of that right. (Just as surely as forcing someone to carry a fetus to birth is a violation of their bodily rights.)
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Re:Just a Matter of Time... (Score:5, Funny)
One guy here needs a new sig (Score:2)
Should now read "oh look, my tax dollars at work coming to ogle me!"
There's no limit to the liberty they'll take from you or the indignities they will subject to to in the name of security. But it isn't your security they fear, it's their cushy jobs that the terrorists threaten. And the domestic terrorists putting you through this rank bullshit have no remorse at all. In fact, they may possibly believe their o
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Technically, every time I go to California I'm breaking the law, since I don't stamp a Proposition 65 warning on my forehead.
(everybody has carcinogens and radiation, some natural even, in their body).
Heck, just entering the state probably breaks a few dozen laws.
why? (Score:5, Funny)
Is there a market in black market millimetre waves that I'm not aware of?
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Indecent posing (Score:5, Informative)
To do this I had to stand in a certain posture.
Imagine someone trying to push, with both hands, a wall coming at them from a slight angle above - or, someone doing a Hadouken at a telephone pole.
At the same time they should have their legs like someone doing a "Kungfu Dancing" imitation, with the condition that they have just crapped themself so making sure they keep those cheeks extra spread.
Image from front and back.
Re:Indecent posing (Score:5, Funny)
The best part was that they weren't even scanning you. They pull this joke on all the tourists with American accents...
Re:Indecent posing (Score:4, Informative)
They described the process as an 'X-ray' which I would have questioned but as I was quite keen to be progressed I simply said "okay".
The stances certainly weren't easy, especially as you have to remain still, they had 3 different positions as I remember it.
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Would you be OK with getting a pat-down or a scan to buy something at the store? Then why is everybody OK with this crap at an airport?
"please take off your clothes" (Score:5, Informative)
They'll ask you to take your clothes off, put the clothes through the scanner to find anything "invisible" and then send them down a ramp at high speed getting them all mixed up with other people's clothes.
My current irritation in US airports is the "boarding card" check AFTER the body scanner. So if (like me) you normally put your ticket in your jacket pocket (which of course has to be scanned separately) then you get scolded even though your boarding pass had to be checked to get you into the security queue in the first place. All this check does is slow everyone down for another 10 seconds per person for absolutely ZERO benefit (they don't check that you are the person on the card, just that you have the boarding card).
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One bunch of idiots making rules for another bunch of idiots.
Boarding pass check (Score:5, Informative)
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The only time I got sec
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One way ticket (Score:2)
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Humans make mistakes. Maybe the first human overlooked something on your ticket, so the second hopefully will catch it...
Think of it scientifically. If the humans are 99% effective at catching whatever they catch when looking at your boarding pass, one layer would miss 1 out of 100 evildoers. Two layers makes that number 1 in 10,000. Of course, the effectiveness of one layer is still debatable...
I would like to see personal interviews more commonplace, like how they do with the Israeli airlines. Just a
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A human check of the card is of minor value, the second check is just for secondary screening which would be much better handled either at the gate (most effective) or at the start of the queue.
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OK. Why the heck are you carrying 2 iPods and 2 laptops onto the plane? I could understand one of each, but....
It may not stop terrorists but... (Score:5, Funny)
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bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
How many of those people actually were aware of the pat-down option? I bet it was not 100%. Also, given the fact that even Medical information cannot be reliably kept confidential in most cases, I sincerely doubt this data will. Unless there are strong prison sentences for any employee convicted of disseminating this information, I am not impressed with their statements of security, confidentiality, or purported privacy.
Uh huh. I feel so much better that the pervert checking out my junk is out of sight. Yeah, much better. Ohhh, but I do agree that the blurred faces give additional illusions of privacy. I am certain that all the women feel better that we men aren't looking at their faces.
Re:bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, what is the paranoia of the human body? Who gives a shit if someone see's my penis, if its a guy they have one of similar design in their pants too...
puritian influences (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:puritian influences (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:puritian influences (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Surely we can trust the government in erasing naked photos of our bodies.
Right?
Hello?
Hmmmm. Seems absurd we trust them with taking care of us (like children) in all other facets of life; why not this one too?
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Considering I, like most people...
A) Don't collect Social Security, and have made alternative plans for retirement since SS will be gone by the time I'm 67 (my full-SS retirement age, a whole 42 years from now).
B) Don't utilize government healthcare. Medicare is a farse that will not last until I'm old and gray.
C) I purchased my own house with money I collected working a job, something a growing number of people seem unwilling to do. I also purchase my food with the same money.
D) I went to a private
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I made my comment in jest, because I find it funny to hear people say on one hand, "We can't trust the government to scan our bodies & erase the images," and yet a few hours later wax eloquently about how "I trust the government to provide my healthcare and retirement and education, and will vote for politicians who agree with me."
It's contradictory.
Either you trust the government, or you don't. (I'm one of those who does not, and would like government to remove itself from the education and he
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We don't trust them ... we've entrusted them because we have no other choice.
When it comes right down to it, we don't trust them any more than they trust us.
Cheers
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I disagree. And I'll let one of the Founders explain why: "Government attracts people filled with avarice and ambition. Love of money and love of power." - Benjamin Franklin. The government is not run by ordinary people, but by corrupt people desiring to make themselves richer and/or more powerful.
The only person you can truly trust is yourself, which is why you should have retirement savings and healthcare payouts that are *self-r
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My neighbor has a a beautiful wife with the same similar design as my wife.. or even my mother. Does that mean that she (or her husband for that matter!) would feel comfortable showing her details to others? (nudists are considered an exception here).
Or what about the idea of your wonderful teenage daughter being selected for a scan time after time again?!? Would you 'give a shit' in that case
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Sshhhhhhh..
It's a rare sound that is hard to detect, be quiet!
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They see tons of people every day. Its nothing special to them.
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Strong prison sentences are not enough (Score:2)
There would also need to be internal audits and tracking to make sure that misuse could be pinned down beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine, if you can, a culture so strong that it would stop the guards from sharing passwords.
In use at London Heathrow, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing that really annoyed me is that I wasn't given a choice - simply told to go through this device. There was no explanation of what it was, or what it would do, only that "the amount of radiation is about the same as flying for an additional 5 minutes at altitude in a plane". However, when I asked the simple question "do I have to?", they sheepishly admitted that I did not. I signed a form saying that I didn't accept it, and they walked me to the front of the line for normal security!
So, by saying "no", I actually saved about 20 minutes in line.
My advice - REFUSE to participate in invasive scans like this. If people accept these new intrusions like sheep, it'll just keep getting worse.
MadCow.
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Although it hasn't happened yet, I'm personally waiting for the next news post.. "New scanner shown to cause various cancers, millions of people already scanned".
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Where is the information on studies for this technology relating to Alzheimers, diabetes, melanoma, and well... just about any common diseases. I haven't seen it. All I've seen is radiation dosages for healthy humans.
Sure, some stuff won't kill you and is voluntary such as cellular phones. This is not voluntary. Just because it won't kill you, or cause you to mutate inside the airport does NOT mean that it does no harm. There are no long term studie
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Too bad. Because for most people one encounters in the airport, mutating could only be an improvement.
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Why did you have to sign a form? Was it to state that you agree you weren't being sexually harassed by being pat down, and that it was your choice? That seems really weird, but I can't think of another reason you'd have to sign anything.
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Some other post said that they now have a sign up - but it definately wasn't there when I went through. I sure hope it's a prominent sign...
MadCow.
Think of the children... (Score:2, Insightful)
Tell me next time when there is kiddie porn leaked from the video feed of scanner like this.
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I'm looking for blurs... (Score:2, Insightful)
Good thing I remember
so they'll be checking kids too? (Score:5, Interesting)
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My employer forces me to get naked.. (Score:5, Funny)
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On a non-funny note, why is this such a big deal? If you were ever injured in an accident, would you *prefer* the doctors not operate on you because they might see you (gasp) naked? Guys, as yo
An alarm is still a leaky channel (Score:2)
Sounds expensive (Score:3, Insightful)
The homeland security folks have had a blank cheque to pay for whatever cool toys they want for far too long.
Air travel is expensive enough as it is, and considering just how rarely I do it, the taxpayer subsidies are sickening as well.
Can I get a printout of my scan when I leave? (Score:2)
You know when you go to a theme park, and there's some bozo photographer at the entrance asking to take your photograph, and then you can buy a print of that photograph as you leave? And even though it's a lousy shot, they want $20 for it? It's like that.
Or better yet, they'll sell anonymized scans of other people.
Obvious flaw in system (Score:4, Interesting)
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Alarm bells (Score:2)
Yeah, you can just imagine the sort of alarms they'll be triggering to get all the boys running for a look..
"Big Bazongas" Alert
"Penis shaped like an amusing vegetable" alert
Ben Wa Balls Alarm
and so on...
Metal implants still require a pat down (Score:2, Insightful)
Personally I have to question then how is this an improvement oveer the current magnetometers from a user perspective.
Also I do not for a minute buy the government's assertion this is safe. Plain and simple there isn't enough long term data for them to make that claim.
Medical privacy (Score:5, Interesting)
who watches the watchers? (Score:5, Insightful)
I submit that if a TSA screener should be entitled to such a scan, that I should be entitled to see them do the same. Unfortunately, given the appearance and physical fitness of your average screener, I think I'm getting the short end of the stick even in that case.
In all seriousness, though, these sorts of violations by our governments upon the governed is the intent of terrorism. Civilians are the indirect target. By making them afraid, the government is pressured or motivated to enact increasingly restrictive laws and methods of enforcement to assuage that fear and protect the populace. The terrorists know that full protection is impossible, so they continue until the loss of freedom becomes so intolerable that the people overthrow the government. The politicians and so-called elected officials know this, but play into their hands anyway--in the short term, the power grab is irresistible.
The entire focus on security (and technology to improve such security) is wrongheaded, and is a convenient diversion from the real issue, which is why people become terrorists in the first place. People don't explode themselves for no reason whatsoever. No amount of technology, legislation, or vigilance will ever address the root cause that incites an individual to such fervor that they are willing to DIE to achieve their aims.
But again, the politicians know this--so one must call into question their own motivation for pushing these measures on the public. When I have the ability to subject each and every last one of our elected officials, corporate officers, and whomever is telling me I'm supposed to be OK with being scanned and exposed in such a humiliating fashion, to the exact same treatment, then and only then would I consider accepting such a practice. When I can see Dick Cheney's ugly-ass flaps of man-tits hanging over his oversized belly obscuring his undersized privates (mind you, not that I would ever risk the subsequent psychological scarring), I might reconsider. And if even one scan ever gets leaked or misused in any way, I'd like to see the scans of each and every one of those people involved in promoting this technology released all over the internet for everyone to laugh at as punishment. Otherwise, their promises and reassurances mean nothing.
It is not a question of trust, freedom, modesty, or security. It is a question of accountability; because without that, everything else is meaningless. To the extent that those that watch us do not desire to be watched by us is the precise extent to which we are not a free and just society.
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Seriously, do you get your information from Newsweek?
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1) Suicide bombers are not poor, nor do they tend to be uneducated.
2) Suicide bombers are often not Muslim (e.g. Tamil Tigers, the Christian suicide bombers who operated under Hezbollah)
3) They are not more likely to be from areas known to foster Muslim extremists. In fact the presence of US troops in their home country is a better indicator by a factor of ten.
4) Suicide terrorists are not
More give away to pet contractors (Score:2)
This looks like a machine that is being sold to the government and 10 or 20 times what it should cost with the main purpose of funneling tax money to some political donor.
This whole terrorist thing is way overblown , and the real danger in flying is the cheap airlines getting away with lax maintenance because the money that should be going to FAA inspectors is going to silly stuff like this.
Cheers
Of COURSE they will be stored. (Score:3, Insightful)
The scans have to be stored for criminal prosecution and accident/incident investigation.
I for it if more accurate and faster; Is it safe? (Score:3, Interesting)
As for prudishness, most bodies are boring if anyone has spent more than a few minutes at a nude beach or as a medical professional. Most mature people can easily handle this.
Conflicting reports give the lie. (Score:2)
Sure. Someone has already commented about being in Heathrow and having a guard right there looking at the scans, knowing who was walking though. Obviously Heathrow isn't a US airport, but can we really believe TSA won't do it that way soon enough? If they are
I get it (Score:2)
In other words, they'll post every picture online at am-i-a-terrorist-or-not.com and those who get the highest scores are detained. Thank you, Internet.
Not very graphic... (Score:2, Insightful)
If that's what it really looks like, then I don't understand how there is any real controversy here. You'd have to be a desperate fella to get aroused by that. Any of these technologies, I assume, are going to be very abstract representations of the human body, hardly something comparable to an actual naked photo of you.
In the end, people will always be able to see you naked the old
Screw airport security and the airlines! (Score:2)
There is simply no reason we shouldn't have luxury RV zeppelins by now.
rhY
Re:Option to opt-out (Score:5, Insightful)
People are often afraid of challenging any sort of authority these days - for fear of reprisal. That's unacceptable. You shouldn't be afraid to ask questions, and shouldn't be labeled a terrorist for doing so either!
MadCow.
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Its not about asking questions. Its about if its actually worth it.
Your going to get searched anyway. Best to get it over and done with quickly.
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The easy path is one that leads to losing all your rights. If nobody fights for them, or thinks it's worth fighting for (despite personal inconvenience), then it's game over.
MadCow.
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The easy path is one that leads to losing all your rights.
Point out to me precisely where you derive this "right" to getting on an airplane without being searched? Go on, show me. I'm sure you know exactly what paragraph and clause in the Constitution says you have the right to board an airplane without having to comply with security regulations. You have to know because you're so damned sure you've got this "right."
Of course, you have no such right because the law makes no provision for one. If you do not wish to submit to being scanned/searched/whatever, you
Re:Option to opt-out (Score:5, Informative)
Airports were the first place where it didn't apply. Now you can be frisked before entering a night club, a political rally, or hell, even your local high school.
The way the US has let the Fourth Amendment slip over the years is a disgrace.
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If you do not wish to submit to being scanned/searched/whatever, you can take a bus, a cab, or your own personal transportation. No one is restricting your ability to get from point A to point B, there are no traffic control points with Gestapo'd brownshirts saying "papers please."
Please. How can you travel to anywhere in the US without taking a plane? and how about going to Europe? I remember the story about that guy who wanted to give a talk in the US, and got blocked at the airport for a no-fly-list reason. That way he couldn't give his talk (3 days delay). Gestapo you said?
So, in your eyes, asking someone to submit to a thorough search of their person and belongings in order to guard against the possession of bombs (see Pan Am Flight 103), boxcutters (see 9/11) or guns (more than I can easily cite), is...unreasonable. Yeah...right...Okaaay.
I see you quoted two terrorist events. Could you give a number that will show how it is more likely than winning the lottery? Or remind us why security experts couln't obtain the guards near the plane itslef
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You may as well ask us to point out the place in the US Constitution where it says you can't be required to disrobe in full view of the other passenge
Re:I like your train of thought.... (Score:2)
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Hmm... yes, it's not worth it at the security check-in. However, it damn well is worth making a fuss. Air travel has become an horrific nightmare in the past 7 years. We are all treated like potential terrorists, our laptops etc are randomly taken away from us, often never to be returned. We are treated to indignities that even cattle do not face.
Everyone needs to be making MUCH more fuss. This has got to stop. Even if you believe in the terrorists under the bed nonsense, y
Re:Option to opt-out (Score:4, Interesting)
I -do- mind having my nude photo taken in order to be allowed on a plane.
I mind a lot -MORE- though having to deliver a metric shitload (make that 2.356 imperial shitloads) of personal data in order to be allowed to fly.
Realistically, I look like an average adult. If someone gets off on blurry outlines of average adults, it's not as if such are in short supply anyway, and frankly I kinda doubt it. And I doubt these pictures are even stored at all, past the few seconds the guards spend inspecting them.
On the other hand, to even be allowed to fly into USA, your freedom-loving government insist that my plane-company provide them with a LONG list of personal data, to be stored indefinitely;
My name, sex and age. When I bougth the ticket. If it's a return-ticket or not. How I paid for the ticket. If I bought it directly, or trough a travel-agency. With whom I'm traveling. Age, name and sex of everyone I'm traveling with. What class I'm flying. My complete travel-itinerary for this trip. And so on.
I consider this a -much- worse invasion of privacy than some blurry nudes. And infact I refuse to comply. Which mean that I refuse to visit the USA at all presently (and have since 2001).
A pity. There's friends over there I'd like to see more often, and there's places I'd like to see and experience. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back, you'll regain some measure of privacy, if not, oh well, it's not as if there's a lack of other interesting places to go and things to do.
I liked the way planes worked on the tiny airport near where I grew up. A lot like buses do today. You wait until the plane lands. Stewardess comes out and opens the luggage-hatch. You yourself toss your luggage in and enter the plane. Stewardess comes around and checks that everyone has a ticket. Your name ain't on the ticket and at no point are you even asked who you are. Closes the doors, and off you go. You could drive into the parking-lot and see the plane land -- and make it no problem. Back then. Oh well. Guess I'm getting old.
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