Release Team Proposes Gnome 3.0 Plans 306
benuski writes "Today at GUADEC, the Gnome User and Developer European Conference, the gtk+ team announced their plans for gtk+ 3.0; immediately after, the Gnome release team announced their plans for Gnome 2.30 to be changed into Gnome 3.0. This would mean a release date a year and a half to a year in the future. Details are short at the moment, but the Gnome team seems to be following in KDE's footsteps, but hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."
Screens???? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Screens???? (Score:4, Interesting)
Probably clutter (http://clutter-project.org/)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Woah. That craps all over the iPhone from a substantial height [moblin.org] and makes aero look pretty silly too. Is it actually practical? Who cares!
Speed it up (Score:5, Funny)
Just re-name 2.2 to 3.0 and you've released ahead of schedule!
Will it be backward compatible with Web 2.0? (Score:5, Funny)
I don't want to upgrade to Web 3.0 yet.
All hail letter "g" (Score:2, Funny)
Gwow, this is Great Gnews! Let's Ghope they are Gstill Going to Geep Gusing the Gletter "G".
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:5, Funny)
Gwow, this is Great Gnews! Let's Ghope they are Gstill Going to Geep Gusing the Gletter "G".
A kbit klike kthe kpeople kthen ksince kthey kdo kthis kfar ktoo koften. kmuch kmore koften kthan kthe kGNOME kpeople
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
[quote]kGNOME [/quote]
KGNOME -- A version of GNOME built on the Qt toolkit and compatible with KDE and KParts and such. ;)
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:5, Interesting)
I know people will think I'm crazy, but I have a vision for kGnome.
QT 4 actually has a Clearlooks engine designed to look like Gnome. Dolphin can be configured to operate largely like Natilus (except it works better these days).
If QT 4 actully really does use less memory and runs faster, why not do a test and port a small Gnome app or two over to QT 4?
The app can run with the QT 4 Clearlooks engine, and look largely like Gnome apps, except they can take advantage of many of the KDE features like Phonon, Solid, Sonnet, etc.
As for the people who prefer C to C++, aren't there language bindings for both for QT and GTK?
I'd love to see just a few small apps as a proof of concept. It could demonstrate the feasibility of a Gnome desktop built upon QT, especially considering the annoucement of Gnome 3, and the decision to break API.
If you're going to build anew, shouldn't this concept at least be considered for a moment? Both projects can have their seperate apps, desktops, defaults, window decorations, features, etc. But more common libraries and toolkits are a win for everyone.
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:5, Informative)
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Gtk and Qt are just widgets. You want more than that: for example, KDE3 offers kioslave, with which you can dynamically mount devices without root privileges or rip CD audio to mp3 on-the-fly. The Kpart stuff allows you, for example, to embed text-view widget in Konqueror that looks and acts in the same way as in Kwrite. And so on.
> why aren't they built on a generic library?
Take a look at the X11 API, or at some apps written in it (xcalc, xevil,
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Gnomelibs are currently going out the window to break compatibility. They're going to design a new gnomelibs for Gnome 3.0
A test case would perhaps to port a Gnome app to QT and kdelibs to showcase using all the KDE features like Solid, Phonon, kioslaves, etc. There is even something similiar to GnomeVFS I do believe now.
It would be great if every major app on my Linux desktop could use all these features.
The new gnomelibs could be designed to use many of these features and borrow from kdelibs.
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:5, Interesting)
If that isn't enough, Trolltech will also provide QGtkStyle [trolltech.com] which will draw using native GTK widgets in the same way it uses native Cocoa/Carbon on OS X to make all Qt/KDE 4 applications have a Gnome look and feel, including things like the order of the dialog buttons.
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What you describe sounds suspiciously like KDE exactly as it is, but with a gnome-like skin on top.
Come on. QT isn't "better" than GTK, nor is GTK "better" than QT.
Although it'd be nice to unify the two projects, they have extremely different mindsets. While KDE is set on becoming as feature-rich as possible (sometimes to a fault), the GNOME folks like to keep things as simple as possible (sometimes to a fault).
Also, nobody ever said that GNOME or GTK can't be lightweight [xfce.org]. I'd personally like to see the
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I didn't say the two projects should become one. If they are going to design a new gnomelibs and base for Gnome 3.0, I think many of the core underlying libraries should come together between the two projects.
Gnome can still have all the Gnome apps, and a Gnome desktop configured how they want. However, a proof of concept app might open the door to discusing gnomelibs3.0 being built on QT and maybe even incorporating some KDE features.
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I use GNUSTEP you insensitive clod!
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I know people will think I'm crazy, but I have a vision for kGnome.
You call that vision?
Apple adopted kGnome, and begat ikGnome.
Asus bought Apple, and begat eeeikGnome.
Warren Buffet bought Asus, shuffled the letters, and made a digital surfboard of the product:
MeNoGeekie.
He retired to Hawaii and surfed, like, for real, dude.
Now that's vision.
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This is a noble goal, and I support a unification on top of Qt4, but it's just not going to happen as long as Qt4 is GPL. GNOME deliberately uses the LGPL to allow free proprietary development (think VMWare, or even just GPL-incompatible like SWT/Eclipse).
If GTK was abandoned, a lot of projects would have to change their license or fork the toolkit. A *lot* of the software we use is GPL incompatible. That doesn't make it non-free, it's just the way the licenses work. For me the biggest hit would be Eclipse,
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Seems you have not used KDE4 series, K letter has trowh out of window. It actually does bad things for new comers because they dont know is application for gnome or kde and then they complain that open/save dialog sucks if they use GTK application on kde or they complain that applications does not follow themes when using kde apps on gnome.
It was much better to have G and K somewhere on names so you always seed right away wich enviroment application it was.
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iNTERNET, just as the e on so much stands for eLECTRONIC
I realize this is a backwards capitalization strategy, it was done on purpose.
Re:All hail letter "g" (Score:5, Funny)
I have yet to figure out what the Apple fascination with the prefix i- on absolutely everything is supposed to signify?
The only person that matters to Steve, course.
I run 2.0 (Score:5, Funny)
It gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's how I likes it.
Background (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Background (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Background (Score:5, Informative)
Probably /apps/nautilus/preferences/show_desktop.
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I've looked into this a little, and I've found that there would be a way to do it if the Gnome devels were willing to do what's needed. It's already possible to tell nautilus not to draw any wallpaper but you must specify a background colour and it must be opaque. All they'd have to do is allow the background to be transparent and Bob's your uncle. Granted, I'm not a g
Reverse Position (Score:2, Interesting)
it's all about the mindset (Score:5, Interesting)
In other words, at this stage this is about the development team, not about the technical issues.
Content free article (Score:5, Informative)
let's wait and see (Score:5, Informative)
"but hopefully will avoid the problems that plagued KDE 4.0's release."
instead they're gonna have all sorts of their own problems. it happened before, it'll happen again.
all major projects have this kind of stuff when major releases come out the door. examples ?
MacOS X 10.0
Windows Vista
Gnome 2.0
Netscape 4.0
.
.
.
maybe it'll be a set of completely diferent problems. but they'll be there. murphy is unforgiven.
Re:let's wait and see (Score:5, Funny)
murphy is unforgiven.
Damn straight he is... not one of us would ever forgive that fscker after all the trouble his stupid law has caused for us!
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where are the grammar nazis when i need them ?
s/given/giving/
x.0 releases (Score:2)
Let's hope so, and if
KDE's footsteps? (Score:5, Funny)
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Luckily for Gnome, when 3.0 ships missing a lot of features, nobody will notice.
Maybe this is a slashdot joke I missed out on (or perhaps just a bad joke), but if you're being serious.... why would nobody notice? You can't be suggesting that nobody uses Gnome since it's the desktop of Ubuntu, a rather popular desktop distro that you might have heard about.
Re:KDE's footsteps? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think he's implying that Gnome has no features.
Which, while not entirely true, is not entirely unfair.
Re:KDE's footsteps? (Score:4, Interesting)
KDE3 was bloated to a fault, and had an unhealthy obsession with identical-looking blue toolbar icons. It was also due for an architectural revamp.
GNOME started going down the "less is more" minimalistic path a few years ago, encouraged by Apple's similar philosophy that seemed to go over well with consumers. Unfortunately, many feel that they stripped a bit too much out (still, I prefer this approach, and was a rabid Xfce [xfce.org] user for quite some time).
KDE4 on the other hand, doesn't feel like it was designed with a minimalistic philosophy in mind. Granted, there was a clear and commendable goal to cut out most of the cruft from KDE3, but it currently still feels a bit incomplete
Do you think that's a fair assesment?
Re:KDE's footsteps? (Score:4, Interesting)
KDE4 is still in development, so yes it is incomplete.
That withstanding, I would say it is a fair assessment. Although I like XFCE more for its small footprint than lack-of-features (simple without being, er, simplified). But to be honest, KDE is my favorite and KDE4 is looking to be very nice (for me) once it's 'done'.
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I don't exactly agree with that, but that's the joke.
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It's because each Gnome release seems to provide fewer and fewer features .
Blatant lie or very misinformed.
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Sure, if you only take that one piece of the sentence. You for got the "as it is simplified" part. And I agree with the over-simplified sentiment.
Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (Score:5, Informative)
I made the folly of installing KDE-4 on my mom's new computer (she had KDE-3.5.x before). There were no "problems". There was a total disaster.
The amount of features available in KDE-3 for years, that did not make it into KDE-4 is staggering... Add bugs to that.
And I was not entirely unprepared — I knew better, than to try KDE-4.0, when it came out with the enormous (and Google-sponsored [kde.org]) hoopla. I waited for 4.0.2... You can't even move widgets around on your task-bar yet — that's "scheduled" for version 4.1!
The all-new "plasma"-desktop can't show you the contents of files in ~/Desktop/ — that's still "in the works". Showing the list of files themselves is buggy — every time you login, a new set of icons (one for each of your files) is added to the desktop.
And to think, that I was getting impatient with FreeBSD KDE-team [kde.org] for not upgrading the KDE-ports! These guys were simply protecting me, but no, I wouldn't listen... I installed the much tauted Kubuntu and paid the price (don't even get me started on Ubuntu itself)...
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Yes, as a matter of fact. Although I admit, that most of the frustration was with the switch — for some reason, Ubuntu considers most single-byte encodings (such as KOI8-U [wikipedia.org]) to be "obsolete" and forces UTF8 upon you.
This is a major pain for someone, who already has many files in the "obsolete" encoding and/or whose names contain it. Yes, you can add more encodings, but if you start using them, the GUI breaks and other things get subtly
Re:Problems with KDE4? What problems?.. (Score:4, Informative)
As far as I know KDE4.0 was never meant for the end user but for developers. I tried it once and told myself: "Looks promising but is not ready to use for me.[0]"
So I waited and at times looked a bit a the latest progress with packages from the svn trunk for my distribution. My impression is that the progress, that KDE4.0 to now made, is just amazing. I am currently using the svn packages more often than my old KDE3.5.9 install, simply because it is a very pleasant experience. I would have switched already, if it was not a "unstable"[1] version and I will definitly switch when 4.1 sees the light of the day.
So let's go on to your issues: Moving widgets in the panel (the task bar is only for displaying your applications) should have been added yesterday or so (according to a blog post at planetkde.org).
Showing the contents of ~/Desktop: The folderview can do that, but not only that. It can also display any folder (for instance on a remote machine as well). It will be able to show the results of nepomuk searches, but this is not ready yet. I for my part had never any icons on my old desktop, because, I think, it looks like I still have lot of work to do. Now I can easily display the folder(s) that I am currently working on and hide them when I am done. I must say, it is way better than the old system for me.
For launching applications, I never used icons (Keyboard > mouse for me) but used the old "Run command". Now there is krunner which is way better than the old system.
As another developer to the KDE team: I love what you are doing with KDE4 and I hope that you can keep the good work up.
[0] I am a developer as well.
[1] unstable as in not finished. I have not experienced lots of bugs, but instead it almost never crashes, which is quite impressive for this kind of packages (compiled directly from the latest source code).
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Baseless. Ubuntu will give you Gnome, and Kubuntu gives you KDE3.5.
If you CHOOSE to download the KDE4 'edition' of Kubuntu, or install the relevant metapackages (you have to try, it won't be an accident) you get KDE4.
KDE4 is NOT ready for general-use, contrary to the 'release' statement. It should be considered beta or pre-release quality.
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What exactly are you referring to as "baseless"?
To my complaint, that a piece of software with release number of 4.0.x is woefully incomplete and bug-ridden?
Or to a complaint, that a release of a major distribution packages such incomplete and bug-ridden software?
Oh, yes. Full agreement here. I just wish, this was more obvious — such as from the release name: "4.0-prealpha" or something...
Seriously, Vista must be an engineeri
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that a release of a major distribution
This is not the default. You specifically have to go installing the metapackages or download a specific ISO. It's not like they are throwing it all down your throat...
If you don't like it, deinstall it and stick to KDE3 (or gnome, xfce, whatever).
An Ode to the GNOME dialog box (Score:5, Insightful)
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Please tell me how to navigate on those dialoges. I have tries so many times and everytime it just shows small filter window and does not do things what I have readed people's step-by-step instructions. Mayby I have missed lots of information :-/
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The parent was being sarcastic it appears...
Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (Score:5, Insightful)
Miguel de Icaza may enjoy appeasing Microsoft, but most of the Free World does not.
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That and they should rip out the Mono crap that's already part of the GNOME desktop. If they did that I might go back to GNOME, given the state of KDE 4.1.
(I finally switched from KDE to GNOME just in time for them to add Mono to GNOME, so I switched back.)
Re:Pledge to stick with unencumbered technology? (Score:4, Insightful)
You could, you know, wait for them to finish KDE4. Nobody held a gun to your head and forbade you from using 3.5 did they?
Where's The Story? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Interesting)
In terms of graphic capabilities, it can natively suppport every feature available on OSX and in Vista, besides a few new features that are unique to KDE 4. In theory, it would be possible to create a desktop that looks-and-feels EXACTLY like OSX or Vista.
However, the best features are not those, but rather the platform independence with native API support. This means that, unlike JAVA, you can create one piece of software that compiles in Linux, OSX and Windows, using the OS-specific APIs. So, the same software compiled in OSX and in Windows look completely different and they didn't have a single line of code changed. The platform independence is not available for everything... for now, you can only compile things like Openoffice. However, the multimedia API, as well as other APIs are being developed.
The other thing great about KDE4 is that it is done with SVG instead of bitmaps. This means that scaling to very small devices like smartphones is quite simple to achieve.
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There are many great advantages of KDE, such as platform independence and SVG rendering like you mentioned.
Again, I suggested the problem isn't the features.
As for making KDE 4 operate or look like OS X or Vista, that depends how much control we have over the interface. My fear/concern is that given recent discussions and posts with Aaron suggest we will have less control.
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Have a look at comment 85 from the link you posted.
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535
You say this discussion suggests Aaron is trying to give users less control but he has designed plasma in a way that means it is not possible for him to have this ultimate control and this is intentional.
Plasma is flexible enough that you can implement your own desktop containment without the corner icon but the current default one is being designed with things like touch screens in mind where you can't right click
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Some people suggested removing the animation, which was a problem because it interfered with maximized windows, and he said no.
The "cashew" would cover up a window whether it's animated or not. :P
Some people suggested allowing people to move or relocate the cashew because it interfered with panels at the top, and he said no.
Not according to this email [markmail.org]. Looks to me is that Aaron disagrees with the various methods of removing the cashew that have been proposed so far, and that ways to do so that don't suck haven't been proposed in time for KDE 4.1.
Some people suggested having the cashew disappear when the panel is locked, and he said no.
The panel cashew does disappear when the panel is locked but locking the widgets onto the desktop doesn't get rid of other activities. The way I would think to do that is to have the cashew disappear automatically i
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I've seen him use the term stupid directly repeatedly. Also a recent comment of his was that non-coders on the whole shouldn't be allowed to comment on design issues.
He also repeatedly said that if you don't read the code, you can't understand the UI. That itself is a problem.
Frankly, end users should be able to pick things up and learn them intuitively. Suggesting that if you don't read the source code, you can't understand the project means there is a serious usability issue.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Also a recent comment of his was that non-coders on the whole shouldn't be allowed to comment on design issues.
Well this is not going to make it feel any better but those who do not have experience coding often do not understand why their proposed design change does not or cannot work. Not always, but if you're good enough to design it you're typically good enough to code it. Code is just transferring a design into a language syntax. Designing it in the first place to work correctly (or not... ;) is hard.
He also repeatedly said that if you don't read the code, you can't understand the UI. That itself is a problem.
Again, this is probably actually true. Of course you can *see* the UI and point out what sucks about it but sometimes a "trivial" UI change involves a large code change. This is easier to see if you understand how the UI is actually formed from the code in question (i.e. Containments, Applets, Activities, etc. in Plasma-land).
Frankly, end users should be able to pick things up and learn them intuitively. Suggesting that if you don't read the source code, you can't understand the project means there is a serious usability issue.
Sure, but there's also the type of user (and I don't know if this is true in the case you're talking about but bear with me) that does something to the effect of:
User: Hey I noticed this is going on and it sucks, fix it!
Dev: One of:
User: Why don't you just do something like integrate the frobnitz?
Dev: Because it doesn't work like that.
User: No seriously, just integrate here and you're done.
Dev: No you don't get it. The code does not work like that. It cannot work because of reason foo
Now most bug reports we get are good reports and if the dev is actually here to work on it even get resolved to everyone's satisfaction. But we do get reports like these and when it turns into a pissing match between the user and the developer politeness is usually the first thing to go out the window. I've seen Aaron be ganged up on by multiple users in this fashion and it's really disheartening to see as a developer.
Hey, sometimes the developer is even wrong and it can be implemented somehow but that typically happens with a patch (oh, maybe it does work...), which you're not going to get from the same developers by pissing in his Cheerios and acting like a jerk. And in the end (at least in KDE) those who actually do the work get to decide so if Aaron is holding off on changing something because no one has presented a satisfactory technical solution (i.e. no "evil hacks" for bug fixes) then that's how it'll be.
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I am all for learning a new system, but from what I have seen it looks like a circus show.
LOOK PLASMA!!! It can so so much more....
OK.....w
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KDE 4 with plasma is going to have more features, no less, they are just going to be added in a different way than what you seem to expect.
For example a lot of people have complained about the toolbox and its inability to hide and Aaron has said that he will reject any patch that changes this behavior. however you can still have this option, the only thing that you need to do is to write a different containment where the toolbox is not shown, add this containment to your desktop, drop the default containmen
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The other thing great about KDE4 is that it is done with SVG instead of bitmaps. This means that scaling to very small devices like smartphones is quite simple to achieve.
SVG isn't magic. There's only so far you can scale a given design down before you start to get aliasing.
Vector graphics always look great when scaled up, scaling down is a trickier affair. You have to design your graphics in advance to look good when scaled down, i.e. not using small details or text that would get lost when scaled down.
If
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe KDE uses a bitmap cache of pre-scaled SVG icons.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
I see your $0.02 and raise you a nickel.
My problem with KDE 4 is that I can't drag a box over several desktop to select multiple desktop icons. That drives me nuts!
My problem with Gnome is the fact that I can't adjust the screen saver properties without some ugly hack.
I know, these are minor issues, but annoying nonetheless. And your post was probably the nickel's worth anyway.
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Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.
Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.
I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.
Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.
I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.
The problem is that these don't appear to be bugs, but design choices. I believe that the gnome developers intentionally removed the option to configure each of the different screen savers and that the KDE dev's set up their horrid desktop icon system by design.
What's to file?
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The KDE 4.0 icon fiasco is going out the window. In KDE 4.1, you have a folder view applet on your desktop that operates largely like a file manager window. You can change the folder it views, and even filter it with smart searches, and Nepomuk meta-data.
I hate having the applet on my desktop, but in the future supposedly it will be the desktop, and support themeing/wallpapers, etc.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Informative)
Community software should mean that people can easily post bug reports and get issues like these addressed.
Open a bug for each issue and hopefully they will be addressed.
I think it is beneficial to the entire community when people report these things.
Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:
Comment #1 from William Jon McCann (gnome-screensaver developer, points: 22)
2005-09-19 13:32 UTC [reply]
I don't have any plans to support this. My view is that any screensaver theme
that requires configuration is inherently broken.
Is developer arrogance a bug or a feature?
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Is developer arrogance a bug or a feature?
A bug, outside of the Redmond and Cupertino areas.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Informative)
Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:
Is this a troll or do you suffer from short attention span? This was his first comment, but the discussion on bugzilla was very long, and further down he identified technical issues that prevent this from being done sanely atm, wrote an FAQ on the matter, asked for help from those who see this feature, and so on. Anyone interest in the issue is well-advised not to rely on the parent but read the discussion themselves.
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Here is the GNome developer response [gnome.org] to the screensaver thingie:
Is this a troll or do you suffer from short attention span? This was his first comment, but the discussion on bugzilla was very long, and further down he identified technical issues that prevent this from being done sanely atm, wrote an FAQ on the matter, asked for help from those who see this feature, and so on.
Right, after about 20 posts of people ragging on him. The fact remains that he tried to weasel his way out by saying that it shouldn't have to be done because it was hard to do. I bet it is hard. That's why I'm not a programmer, much less a maintainer. If he has a problem with what the people using the product want, he should hand it off to someone who gives a damn. (not to mean that I don't appreciate his efforts, but he chose to be the maintainer for a reason.)
Anyone interest in the issue is well-advised not to rely on the parent but read the discussion themselves.
Good idea. If only had posted a link or
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, maybe he chose to be the maintainer because nobody else stepped up and it needed one. He was (is?) a volunteer who donated his own time. You have zero right to demand anything of him. If you want a feature implemented badly, pay someone to do it.
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You know, maybe he chose to be the maintainer because nobody else stepped up and it needed one. He was (is?) a volunteer who donated his own time. You have zero right to demand anything of him. If you want a feature implemented badly, pay someone to do it.
I love the way you complete disregard the part where I said
(not to mean that I don't appreciate his efforts..)
Then again, if you have you wouldn't have your strawman if you did.
But to get back on topic, the GP said I should place a bug report and said that everyone should as it helps the maintainers know that there is a problem. I showed him what happens when people do.
I don't have a problem with maintainers. I have a problem with maintainers that don't listen to the users. Regardless of what you think of them or how whiney they are, they are the ones wh
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Whatever, you misrepresented the actual situation with this issue.
You may be right. In the sense of fairness, here is another quote from the same link as above. Also, please notice that six months have past since the previous post:
Comment #22 from William Jon McCann (gnome-screensaver developer, points: 22)
2006-03-03 14:44 UTC [reply]
Take it easy everyone. Please understand that I'm not paid to do this and it
isn't my full time job. Also understand that simply reiterating the issue
doesn't add anything. Also, unless you are motivated enough to actually write
some code or pay/convince someone else to do it for you then you are less
likely to get what you want. That's open source for you. Please try not to
make demands of me.
I've added a stub to the FAQ about directory translation.
Chris Weiss: I'm glad to see that you have actually looked into this. I'm
afraid there is probably something wrong with your system since that should
work fine. Try submitting a bug to your distro.
Miles: Looks like someone upgraded the wiki and it changed the way the URLs are
accepted. Try, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuestions [gnome.org]
I think was is needed here is a product manager or something that acts as a firewall/router to translate between the actual coders and the general public.
Coders are geeks. They don't deal well with people who don't understand what it is that they really do. It doesn't help that they get bombarded with stupid requests from people who don't kn
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Informative)
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Can you prove those 2 statements? Can you provide links to statements where he says that?
From my use of KDE 4.1, I, a user, have the exact same configuration menu in konqueror that I used to have, and I now have dolphin, with simpler configuration, that has been added which I can use standalone, or along konqueror or not.
As a user, it seems I now have more choice.
Plasmoid seems a little raw right now, but I have the feeling they are the equivalent of firefox extensions.
Basically, they are putting the desktop in the hand of the users. You will have extension, sorry, plasmoid, whith little or no configuration, and some some with heavy configuration and you will just choose and build your own personnal desktop. Just like firefox with its extensions.
So your comment about them dumbing down the desktop or removing it from the users hand is pretty much out of the picture, it's quite the opposite.
As for aseigo, I follow his blog and I can't remember him saying users can't comment on UI issues. If you'd give links to that than I might find your comment informative, right now, it seems mostly flamebait.
(My bet is that he said that as long as the underlying technology is not ready, the discussion about with or without 'insert your preferred desktop item or usability issue' are irrelevant.)
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154535 [kde.org]
Read his blog. (Oh wait, you can't. He took it down, but check for archived versions!)
And read dot.kde.org and you'll see a plethora of these comments lately from him.
That bug is a good source of many such comments however.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Informative)
His blog was unavailable for a while but it came back online several days ago.
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you prove those 2 statements? Can you provide links to statements where he says that?
You didn't ask that from me but what kind impression I have had from what Aaron has told, is that KDE4 is coming smarter, so there is no need for configurations, because KDE will notice what user wants and leave more easier working enviroment for user when.
Feature and Configuration are two different things.
KDE has lots of features and lots of configurations. Gnome has few features and even less configurations. Now KDE4 will move kde to direction that there will be lots of features but much less configurations. Default look will be very simple and clean so all "dumb" gnome users can use kde easily but power user who knows what wants, can turn things ON and customize whole enviroment.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Informative)
As for aseigo, I follow his blog and I can't remember him saying users can't comment on UI issues. If you'd give links to that than I might find your comment informative, right now, it seems mostly flamebait.
Bug 154535 is a user request for the ability to optionally remove the toolbox "cashew". 154535 has the second highest number of votes of any plasma bug. Aaron marked it as WONTFIX ("that is the final resolution of this issue as per the maintainer of the project"). Here are two examples of his attitude:
#53
it would be nice, however, if in situations like this you refrained from commenting ... i don't particularly need to open my inbox, go through the bug reports and read this kind of stuff.
#84
please, please, please people: don't try and get involved in discussions of design. if you are technically capable of doing so, read the code and jump on panel-devel and discuss things with the rest of the team in a reasoned and well-informed manner.Re: (Score:2)
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
I agree with the first 1/2 of his statement, but not at all about the last part.. Non coders are the BEST ones to comment about UI usability. Without users, you don't have any UI coding to do.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Informative)
this is one reason why I continue to use gnome or xfce instead of the new KDE. Of all things they removed one feature most important to me:
the ability to change tabs in konsole by pressing alt-# (ie, alt-1 = go to tab 1, alt-2 to tab 2 etc.)
I asked in the #kde-devel channel if it was removed intentionally or just hadn't been re-added. Aaron's first response was to claim I must not use a terminal much (I'm a systems admin and programmer, I spend nearly all day in a terminal.) He then said that terminal programs should bind as few keys as possible because terminal programs have already assumed nearly all possibly combinations.
I offered a patch that would re-insert them as an option -- not enabled by default but there for people that decided they wanted to set it. It was turned down.
Fuck it all, KDE is going the same way GNOME did. I'll stick with vim, mutt, and move back to freaking wmaker or fvwm if it's the only way to have a system that doesn't treat me like I'm five years old.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:5, Interesting)
> I asked in the #kde-devel channel if it
> was removed intentionally or just hadn't
> been re-added.
It just hasn't been re-implemented.
You should have been pointed at me rather than Aaron. Terminal related queries will reach me if they are sent to konsole-devel@kde.org , robertknight on #kde-devel or be filed as bugs against Konsole at http://bugs.kde.org/ [kde.org] . Your patch hasn't crossed my path yet and I cannot comment on it until I see it.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, we are dumb... We want KMail to preserve the HTML-layout of the original [kde.org], when we are replying to or forwarding it. The enlightened developers have been telling us for years, how stupid [kde.org] it is, but we continue to foolishly insist.
If that's not valid grounds for contempt towards users, I don't know, what is.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Citation needed
Re: (Score:2)
Check a few posts up.
Re: (Score:2)
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb.
Would you please stop posting FUD? And for goodness' sake, his last name is Seigo, not Segio.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Interesting)
I have two problems with KDE4, only one of which is due to the KDE people.
First, I believe the development team should have kept it in Beta until it was feature-complete. Feature complete, in my mind, is at minimum the feature set of 3.x. It shouldn't even be a release candidate until "done" and stable.
Second, distros should avoid including immature projects like KDE 4 until they *are* feature complete and stable. Yeah, Kubuntu, I'm looking at you!
Hopefully, the Gnome folks (and Ubuntu) will wait until everything's ready for prime time before releasing 3.0
Re: (Score:2)
Check out openSUSE's builds of KDE 4.1, which are *MUCH* better than any other KDE 4 builds I've seen.
I still won't use it however. I just mix KDE 4 apps into my KDE 3 desktop.
Re:Problem with KDE 4 (Score:4, Informative)
Kubuntu defaults to KDE 3.5 last time I checked. Yup, running Kubuntu 8.04 right here, using KDE 3.5. The remix is KDE4, but hey, they're experimenting with it. You can OPTIONALLY install it, but you don't have to run with it if you don't want to. But they can't get feedback if no one uses it.
What was it you were bitching about again?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
UI and programming are two different things. One is a study of ergonomics. Programmers who don't specifically have a talent or study in UI should not control UI.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet no one knows what the long term design plans for Plasma are. The users keep getting surprised, and they feel that Plasma over-promised and under-delivered.
On top of that you have Aaron Segio now suggesting that users should have less control over configuration, fewer choices, and saying that end users are dumb. He also has suggested repeatedly lately that if you're not a coder, then you can't comment on UI issues.
Why don't you ask the Plasma developer*s* (i.e. more than just Aaron)? In addition the KDE feature plans [kde.org] are linked to from the front page of the KDE TechBase. For things not covered there you could add Planet KDE [planetkde.org] to your news reader or subscribe to the panel-devel [kde.org] mailing list. Want to see all commits made just to plasma? Use the KDE commit filter [kde.org].
As far as Aaron he's been under a constant heap of criticism lately because Plasma in KDE 4 is not *exactly like* kicker+kdesktop in KDE 3 so perhaps you can
Aaron Segio (Score:2, Insightful)
I've been disagreeing with a lot, but I don't like to see people bash him as a person.
Frankly, he seems to be a great coder, and plenty of developers keep prasing Plasma as a framework.
My concerns are more about his philosophy and PR capabilities.
Re: (Score:2)
Check a few posts up and I posted a link.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
With the way Aaron is running the show, every one will have to wait for 4.5 for it to be as good as 3.5.
snip
Aaron is a hell of a developer, but he is no project manager. He can't see the forest through the trees. Anyone who is in charge of a project like he is should not be coding.
Aaron is not in charge of KDE. No one person is anyways but although Aaron is a core developer he does not run KDE or choose its direction.
What he does do is a lot of interaction with the press and presentations at events and such so in that regard he has acted as the face of KDE in person.
He also maintains the Plasma program (he does not run the whole show though, there's more people than just him working on Plasma). Many people see it as the "face" of KDE 4 in that it is the most-prominent GUI in KDE.
Bu