Navajo Nation Losing Internet Access 360
An anonymous reader writes "Due to contracts that are allegedly FUBAR, and associated wrangling, the Navajo Nation is being cut off by its satellite ISP. This is the final stage of the process, which already deprived chapter houses of access last April. While the business mechanisms play themselves into the expected ludicrous snarl, the real question may be: Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
Radios... (Score:5, Funny)
http://xkcd.com/257/ [xkcd.com]
Smoke Signals (Score:5, Funny)
Nations vs. Internet (Score:4, Interesting)
At some point, we are going to realize that a world divided into nations cannot coexist with a world united [metagovernment.org] on one internet.
It's already strange enough having nations like the Navajo trying to exist inside other nations.
What use are nations these days? Don't they just divide us?
Re:Nations vs. Internet (Score:5, Insightful)
The world is full of unimaginable horrors and humans being deprived from basic necessities and rights. The idea of a nation is to divide the world into blocks that are small enough that you could possibly do something about the terrible condition in which you and your fellow citizens exist.
How much more likely are you to be able to uplift the condition of a small nation than a large one? A great deal.
How likely are you to be successful in attempts to uplift the condition of all men in all nations? Not very likely.
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Wrong on at least one point: (Score:3, Insightful)
The more distant and more abstract -- and more powerful -- the enemy is perceived as being, the more potential "unity" against this "enemy" that can be achieved close to home, and thus more central power can be asserted.
The threat of "terrorists of uncertai
Re:Nations vs. Internet (Score:5, Insightful)
By your logic, the US would become a much better place if all the States became sovereign nations. They're already the size of nations. Heck, there's three sovereign nations in Europe that could each fit inside Rhode Island.
The original plan laid down by the Founding Father's had the states as something more than administrative districts, but something less than sovereign nations. So that most of went on within a state's boundaries was governed by the state, and the federal government only dealt with matters that genuinely crossed state lines.
Then we had a Civil War, in which the issue of states' rights became entangled with the issue of slavery. And as a result we now have an all-powerful federal government, and the states *have* been reduced to little more than administrative districts.
I suspect we *would* be better off if the US was more like the EU, with states actually having some degree of independence. Large, central governments are *much* easier for special interests to manipulate, since far fewer people have to be convinced (or bribed).
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Oh Yes!, and a single specie, is much better than millions of differents beings, also!
Don't get fooled, diversity IS the norm, monolithical conceptions are just a one's mind nightmare.
Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
While one worldwide society might SEEM like a worthwhile goal
HAM is right out. (Score:5, Informative)
Not only is amateur radio restricted to non commercial uses - meaning important things like NO ADS ALLOWED more than simply no generation of profit for sending over those frequencies. However, it's also "no vulgarity", and "no encryption" as well.
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Wait, so it's impossible to troll amateur radio?
Unfortunately, it happens all the time. The FCC is nowhere near aggressive enough in enforcing the rules. When they do enforce them, they do so with a huge sledgehammer and a pile of bricks -- but they only do it very rarely.
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That was your buddha moment.
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Not to mention, its what, 9600 baud? Better off with dial-up.
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.
not to mention the geek's blithe ignorance of geography.
the Navajo Nation is 26,000 square miles in size, with a population density of about 7 people per square mile. desert icons like Monument Valley are to be found there.
All the networks belong to the corporations. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
That question is just as relevant for the rest of the world as it is for the Navajo nation. What happens when AOL/Time Warner/Microsoft/CNN/MSNBC/Taco Bell and Carl's Jr. take over the world? There is no Net neutrality anymore. Everything we do is being watched, and reported to the corporations of the world. In the future we won't be able to sneeze or fart without someone knowing about it somewhere.
When are we going to get together to start forming our own backbones? We need a fat pipe that will always remain open and free and that can't be taken over by corporate greed. But, how would you pay for such a thing? How would you create it? How would you maintain it?
I'd be willing to pitch in $80 / month for a truly neutral network. What's your price? How much would you be willing to pay to have access to a FREE (as in speech) Internet connection?
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What happens when AOL/Time Warner/Microsoft/CNN/MSNBC/Taco Bell and Carl's Jr. take over the world?
Have you been living under a rock for 10 years? Yeah, I'm really worried about AOL and CNN taking over. Your list of companies reads like a laundry list of has-been corporations that were big in the 90s.
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Nonsense. Taco Bell is destined to achieve domination after Franchise Wars. I, for one, welcome our new pseudo-Mexican masters.
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How about Fidonet?
what's the long term plan? (Score:2)
I'm wondering what the long term plan is. Do Navajos want to get wired Internet eventually and (more generally) get connected to civilization? Do they want to continue to lead an isolated rural lifestyle and have the US government pay for Internet access? Or what?
I'll be out there in 3 weeks (Score:3, Informative)
I did some volunteer web development for a non-profit that deals with a high school on a navajo reservation. A lot of the students only had access to computers at school, and I was thinking that the OLPC project would be perfect for them... although I'm not so enthusiastic with the direction that OLPC seems to be taking.
But anyway, having a mesh-network with cheap netbooks like the OLPC would be a great way to extend access from some single source, if one could be found or created.
Also, I'll be going out there in 3 weeks with some members of this non-profit that I worked for, so I'll get a first-hand look at their situation.
Ask the Telcos (Score:3, Insightful)
See if the local telco will set something up for them. They can use fixed wireless links from the nearest CO if running fiber costs too much.
The telcos have a vested interest in keeping various local, state and/or federal governments out of the broadband business. Its the old slippery slope argument. First, its just a publicly owned system for the Navajos. Next thing you know, they'll be wiring up _my_ neighborhood. (One can hope.)
This is not a USAC issue. (Score:5, Informative)
This not due to USAC's problems.
This action is being taken because the service provider and the applicant for the services BOTH conspired to break the rules surrounding the ERATE (Federal program that gives discounts on ELEGIBLE technology, at ELIGIBLE locations, to ELIGIBLE entities).
Wireless services were ONLY supposed to be offered at eligible school locations (classrooms, areas where data needed to transit to GET TO classrooms), but instead the wireless services were installed as a generic community service, some of them winding up in admin areas, boarding halls, and bus barns (all NON-ELIGIBLE areas).
Some folks are making this out to be a case of 'the white man screwing over the indian,' where in reality it is a case of 'the white man catching another white man and the indian breaking rules, and making them pay for their actions.'
For more information, go dig up some article from the Funds for Learning website (www.fundsforlearning.com) or eschoolnews.com
Political solution (Score:2, Funny)
John McCain to the rescue.
Seriously. He's the man for this job. It's in his domain. It'll be a good test of his influence and his geek credibility.
And he's advertising on slashdot now. That's so cool.
Moderation abuse? (Score:2)
Ok, so I get how some people have an axe to grind. Partisan politics and all that. I get that. Look, though. Moderation is supposed to be fair. The Navajo Nation is at mostly in Arizona. I have friends on the reservation there. John McCain is the Senator from Arizona. How in the world (to use a nice word) is the parent off topic? I've been to the Navajo Nation. I've been to the Apache Nation. They could both use his help, and all the other help they can get. Does the fact that he's currently a cand
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Because the State of Arizona and the Navajo Nation get along so fantastically well!
Heck, they can't even agree on the time of day for most of the year.
Getting weaned off welfare is hard (Score:2, Interesting)
They complain they have to drive up to 60 miles to Page, AZ to get internet access.
It should be trivial to set up a 60 mile WiFi link for pennies compared to satellite internet.
Also, laying down fiber is cheap. A lot of long valleys with a few hundred residents have fiber laid. A little innovation and community effort here can solve this for the better.
Maybe getting weened of the satellite access paid for by your internet tax may actually do them some good.
Very hard area to serve (Score:5, Informative)
This is definitely not the kind of problem that can be solved by geeks writing code. It's a physical layer issue, one of the hardest "last miles" in the country.
The Navajo Nation sits in hilly desert country. The population density is very low (it's desert, after all) and it's pretty far from anywhere (the AZ/NM/UT border). Most of the telephone service is provided by Frontier Navajo, who I think bought the tribal telephone company. On the NM side, some is now being served by Sacred Wind, a new phone company using WiMAX, with USF funding, to cover areas with an average population density below one person per square mile. Qwest, using old wireline technology, wouldn't go there; Sacred Wind needs to spend something approaching $10k/home using the latest radio technology. That's a fraction of what wireline would cost - and btw, USAC (the FCC's USF subsidiary) might well have spent more (they've funded >$20k/home for FTTH) if asked; that program is totally out of control. See "Sandwich Isles Communications" for a real horror show.
Frontier's network, which covers most of the reservation, is a traditional rural wireline telco, incapable of providing broadband outside of the villages. And if you want to lease a T1 from them, try $75/mile! So satellite, while hardly ideal, is usually the best option. And the bureaucrats should get off their duffs and fix the problem.
I've done some preliminary studies and it looks like some types of high-powered mesh radio network can cover rustic plains at reasonable cost, but this is in the foothills of the Rockies, not flatland, and the hills get in the way, so it would be very costly (as with Sacred Wind).
Piece Of Cake (Score:3, Interesting)
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...you can connect to them wirelessly.
I would hope so!!!
If there were a free solution... (Score:2)
every geek in the world would be getting free internet access from some Wiley Coyote style setup in their back yard. Note: Stealing the next door neighbour's unencrypted WiFi doesn't count. That's just too easy.
Re:If there were a free solution... (Score:4, Funny)
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I was thinking something like a dynamite powered ornithopter for dumping boulders covered in data on the desired destination, but that works too :P
Oh, for... (Score:5, Funny)
"Is there a place for an inexpensive ham/technogeek/FOSS solution that could bypass the antics of the for-pay providers?"
Of course, it's all so simple! We could all build little F/OSS rockets out of plywood, duck tape and bailing wire, putting libre communications satellites based on Pringle's can technology into geosynchronous orbit!
Internet Access Singularity (Score:2, Troll)
Out of all the grief
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the racism cuts both ways.
Native americans have abused anti-discrimination laws to double-cross and interfere with scientific organizations and kept potentially ground breaking archaeological finds tied up in murderous litigation for decades.
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what is religious about dinosaur skeletons.
One particular instance I remember was in the mid 90's.
They found one of the most in tact t-rex skeletons on indian land, worked out a deal with the tribe for millions, paid them, and extracted the skeleton.
after they go through the expense and time of, you know.. extracting, cleaning, cataloguing, and assembling the skeleton, here comes the tribe again wielding some assanine one-sided law. They tie the thing up in litigation, and "legally rob" the institution in q
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Thanks, I appreciate specific feedback more than anonymous score or karma. I too feel a bit queasy about /. posts that bash Mr.Gates frequently, so I thought (perhaps mistakenly) the familiar theme would be well served in what I consider an important moral situation.
As I pointed out, it was his foundation that instigated this situation, th
Why not /technomancer? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because it's
Don't they have a backup network? (Score:2, Funny)
I know it can be tough to go low-baud after having high speed internet, but don't these guys have a working implementation of TCP/IP Over Smoke Signal?
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"I'm getting some pretty severe packet loss."
"Oh, that's just the wind."
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Everybody wants something for free.
Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...? (Score:5, Informative)
It is 60 miles to the nearest town with net access.
So I will venture that town has fiber.
Fiber can be run close to 200 miles without a line amp.
A cpl of Asynchronous Xfer Mode cards for each end are a
few hundred bucks, and some older refurb Cisco gear and
your good to go.
An OC-3 in the town 60 miles away from the local
carrier will cost less than $10,000/mo. and give them
155 Mbps that they can hookup to a Squid Box to
use as caching mechanism to save on xmitting the
same data twice to two different hosts.
Local cable TV companies ran their fiber in aerial protected
cabling with a strength enhancing strand down the center.
When you consider how much aerial fiber the cable companies
ran in major cities, I'd say it is easily doable.
The Navajo should contract it out.
For 2.25 billion I dare say they could do their own Coop ISP
like some other ppl have done around the US.
http://www.coop.net/ [coop.net]
And when they run it run multi-strand in case one fiber pair
has issues at some point in the future.
In fact I bet as a PR stunt Cisco would come out and profile
the whole setup for them.
Just my two cents...
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Correction the OC-3 costs around $40,000/mo.
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For some reason my mind swapped price of T-3 and OC-3.
Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...? (Score:5, Funny)
Worst. Poem. Ever.
Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...? (Score:5, Insightful)
You have alot of interesting stuff here, but off the beaten path of what is being asked I think.
What the Navajo Nation is needing is Tier 1 access, or in the alternative, as suggested by the article, become a Tier 1 provider. I think within the reservation, using high power (50W) access points upon hill and mountain tops to wirelessly distribute to the end points would actually be a worthwhile solution, close to what 802.11 was designed for, then link the access points wirelessly again with a point to multi point backbone as they should all have line of site of each other. Now it is just a matter of getting it connected to the net. And from the geographic location of the reservation, and them needing to be their own provider, a DS3 to San Jose and Dallas or Chicago to peer at the NAPS. I don't think the big boys will be anal about peering with their community at the NAPS like they are with peering with other for-profit providers.
I peered at the Ameritec NAP through most of the 90's in Chicago and was able to pass most of my traffic there, over 50%, as a for profit provider, so MCI/Sprint/UUNet wouldn't peer with our network, but would gladly sell transit over the NAP, which would give the Navajo the option if needed. Reading TFA doesn't make clear if the Navajo or the USAC budget is $2.25b/yr, but I'm going to assume the USAC budget is that, so what I've suggested and what the Navajo budget are still might be within the costs on an ongoing basis of what their contract with OnSat was costing, and much better service, but the initial hardware cost might be out of reach for them
Wouldn't You Need To Run a L-O-T of Cable? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Navajo Nation is larger than a considerable number of states. It is sparsely populated. Many (most?) residences do not have landline telephone service, i.e., there is no landline for them to access. Wouldn't it be necessary to run cable to each of these homes and businesses and schools?
Re:Are you asking for a free internet solution...? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.
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Perhaps they could pay for their own Internet access. Like, ya know, everyone else.
What? You pay for your Internet access?
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Funny)
>deduce the internet connection from taxes
Pray tell, Watson, how would one do that?
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Totally insensitive to the actual reprecussions of their actions, some GS weenie, probably balding and fat and fearful of doing anything constructive to solve problems because it might screw up his/her next stepping increase in the future, consigns thousands of people to being offline.
Government just doesn't really work.
You might want to RTFA a second time.
USAC, which administers billions of dollars in FCC grants every year to provide Internet service to rural areas and low-income consumers, is refusing to continue funding after an audit by the tribal government revealed questions over payments by the Navajos to their Internet provider, OnSat. As a result, another company, SES Americom, which provides satellite services to OnSat, is scheduled to pull the plug today.
USAC says the provider is under investigation, after the audit raised questions about the bidding process and possible overpayment. But the provider rejects the findings and plans to fight them in tribal court.
Surprise surprise, there was a corrupted bidding process overseen by an Native American Tribe.
Unfortunately, many of the Native American Tribes have poor &/or corrupt governance, none of which is the fault of the U.S. Government. If the Tribe was really serious about resolving the issue, they would conduct the quickest inquiry ever and do everything possible to create immediate reforms in order to regain the confidence of the USAC.
BTW - the USAC is a non-profit corporation, so they're not technically part of the US Gov't
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Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?
Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Is tribal governance not handled by some kind of tribal government?
Government screws stuff up. Tribal government, local government, federal government, doesn't really matter. If there's government involved, something is probably being forced to work inefficiently.
True, but...
1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest. We're not talking inefficiency here, we're talking about a (apparently/allegedly) broken bidding process.
2. The OP specifically singled out "some GS weenie".
GS = General Schedule [wikipedia.org] = US Federal Government
This problem is of the Tribe's own making and as I pointed out,
the USAC is not the Federal Government.
http://www.usac.org/about/usac/ [usac.org]
The Universal Service Administrative Company (USAC) is an independent, not-for-profit corporation designated as the administrator of the federal Universal Service Fund by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).
A lot of the Native American Tribes need to join the modern era and create some transparency in their governance. It's one thing when their malfeasance/corruption benefits a minority of members, it's another thing entirely when it publicly harms the entire Tribe. How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process? They could have hired a bonded and insured company that adheres to Federal Standards to do it for them.
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Yes, but with it hidden, and using demogaugory, they can make the US the cause of all their problem.
Re:Government as usual (Score:4, Funny)
Here goes whatever karma I've built up, but oh-fucking-well:
1. Native American Government is much much less transparent about their business than is normal in a 'Western' government, allowing shenanigans that even their own people would protest.
You insensitive White Man! You and your Western style of government and business is evil and corrupt! Don't you realize, Evil White Man, that bribes and corruption are part of our Native American culture?!
The Great Spirit manifests itself in suitcases filled with money!
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Informative)
"How hard is it to run a kosher bidding process?"
I'm posting anonymously, but one of my clients from time to time is a tribal government. It's actually pretty damn hard to run a kosher anything, when there are no trained employees whatsoever.
Consider that only 7% of the Navajo nation over age 25 has a college degree. That includes associates degrees too. Only 56% made it through high school.
Need someone who can e.g. run Excel or quickbooks? And someone who isn't caught up in the various things that occur disproportionately often in extremely poor areas, such as health deterioration, family issues, drug abuse, etc? Good luck with that.
Say you're lucky and land the perfect employee to help with running your government office. Congratulations, they just left for better pay in another division (or off the reservation entirely)!
It's really a rather difficult and sad situation that won't resolve itself for a generation or more, barring drastic change.
Re:Government as usual (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a very simplistic viewpoint and runs counter to historical experience and the majority of accepted non-partisan political theory. It is a viewpoint that mostly goes along with governments that use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) as weapons of political terrorism. The United States does an exceptional job at creating FUD. Indeed, every government created by violence or fear has perpetuated itself through violence and fear, whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear, they survive by consent perfectly well.
(I'm not going to argue over whether or not the war of independence was necessary or not, to me that is irrelevant. What matters is that the war is still going on in the minds of those who run the country, and all is "fair" in love and war - even when the war is a delusionary one.)
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[T]he war of independence... is still going on in the minds of those who run the country...
What? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read all year.
... whereas governments formed by peaceful consent almost never use either violence or fear...
Examples, please. I'm sure you'll find the nations that you're thinking of were born in blood or oppression. Most countries were, unfortunately.
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Iberians [wikipedia.org] for example.
Current Catalonia, ancient people, ancient culture, first european parlament, never imperialistic.
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Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, my theory says NOTHING about success, wealth, power, influence or even freedoms. It states that a system will typically be maintained by the means by which it is created. You can have a violently maintained nation that still has enormous freedoms. In the most trivial sense, the fact that US cops carry guns is all about maintaining law and order through the threat of them shooting you. If that wasn't an effective threat, why would they bother?
You can also have FUD and freedom. Classic example - the raising of the national alert status for the Democratic Convention in 2004. Wonderful example of deliberate scare tactics, but it didn't alter anyone's freedom to attend. Margret Thatcher routinely used scare tactics to frighten people away from voting Labour, superb FUD work, but she never stopped anyone supporting them or voting for them.
My first claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through violence that uses neither FUD nor violence to survive - such methods guarantee real and imagined grievances will make it unsafe for such a nation to ever renounce such methods. Any nation that tries will inevitably get itself replaced. You have shown me no counter-example. All your examples verify this claim.
My second claim is that you cannot have a nation that was founded through peaceful means that uses either FUD or violence to survive - should it try, the backlash will always exceed its capacity to deal with both the rebellion and whatever caused it to adopt such tactics in the first place. There are rather fewer examples of such societies, but they have existed (Skara Brae is a good example, surviving 1,500 until finally being beaten by the environment) and they do exist (Iceland is considered the most peaceful in the world, has been a genuine democracy since 930AD and I don't recall it getting mentioned here for Big Brother tactics).
I make no other claims, although since you brought up America's wealth, I would point out Iceland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. This would indicate to me that any nation is capable of wealth, that wealth is wholly independent of the means to sustain the government.
(Please note: I dislike Iceland's stance on many issues, but I respect them for being honest in their views. I wouldn't want to live there, and I do choose to live in the US freely even though I regard the current regime as a bunch of mindless thugs and don't expect any future regime to improve on that.)
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Hey man. You can't speak badly about the current administration here in America! We are FORWARD thinkers. Go on, with all your listed examples above, name one other country that has managed to put so many of the mentally disadvantaged into such prominent positions.
None?
America == Open.
We put our flaws out there for all the world to see. We don't see China lining the streets with mental midgets when the Olympics goes there but here, in the land where we're all equal, we'll parade 'em out to shake the hands o
Re:Government as usual (Score:4, Interesting)
The irish state was formed after a violent civil war and more rebellions/uprisings than I can count on both hands yet our police don't carry guns on the streets and the joke about our army is "Join the Irish army, see interesting places, get to know the other 2 guys."
A state formed through violence can be quite peaceful.
Australia was formed peacefully yet they get a fair whack of the FUD that americans get about terrorism.
Looking for nations that formed peacefully seems to be a problem since so few are formed that way and it's always debatable since often they came to be as a result of a larger conflict or the violence was limited to a handful of top politicians being bumped off.
Some of the countries which came into being when the soviet union fell apart were formed peacefully but are far from perfect when it comes to oppression/violence.
Re:Government as usual (Score:4, Insightful)
You also forgot:
United States - founded by a combination of violent revolution and violent conquest.
Re:Government as usual (Score:5, Informative)
Please stop saying "Native American" (Score:3, Informative)
Besides, even the T Tex isn't really a native American. They walked here just like the Indians did. Indians just got here earlier than I did.
Please stop saying "liberal" (Score:5, Interesting)
While the theft of the term "liberal" by leftist anti-liberals did take place many decades ago, it is still a term that does not apply to them and should not be used to describe them.
A liberal is someone who believes in liberty and who pursues policies that create, expand, and protect liberty. A leftist is someone who believes in tyranny, and who pursues policies that create, expand and entrench tyranny.
When you allow the left to choose the terminology by which they will be described, you are hand them a victory. You don't call a child molester a "boy lover." You don't call a rapist a "persistent suitor." You don't call a terrorist a "freedom fighter." And you sure as hell don't call a leftist a "liberal." To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.
Re:Please stop saying "liberal" (Score:4, Insightful)
Thank you VERY much for the post. I, personally, have adopted the Gliberals for the leftiest.
The very idea that we're turning more and more into a nanny state makes me want to cram a sharpened stick into my eye but by the time I get said stick ready there will be a law requiring anyone to register their sharpened sticks. "Liberals" my ass.
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To do so tarnishes the good name of the men and women who have fought and died to bring the light of freedom into the world.
Depending on which side you are on, those men and women could be seen as "freedom fighters" or "terrorist" as well as "traitors". Perspective is a hell of a drug.
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By Your "Logic"... (Score:3, Insightful)
By your, umm, logic, hardly anyone on the planet merits a description as a native resident. Unless you live somewhere near the Olduvai Gorge, your ancestors went walkabout.
The word "native" is typically applied to people who appear to be the first, i.e., original, inhabitants of a territory. Today's Indians are descendants of the first people to successfully settle in the Americas. How those folks got here is irrelevant.
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PLease, the FCC is ending it's grant money.
So the Nation is upset it's not getting it's free ride.
But wait,
"New Mexico Sens. Jeff Bingaman (D) and Pete V. Domenici (R) wrote to the FCC two weeks ago. "We are deeply disturbed by this imminent loss of communications service to vital public safety agencies."
So the government wants to help.
The government does work, and in fact if you actually researched it you you find that with almost all it's projects the government is very efficient, more so then any corpora
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Government just doesn't really work.
Government is a reflection of civilization. I don't like this at all.
Landlines, radios, tv signals, cars; no one is getting cut off from the world.
An ugly glitch that needs fixing. They don't deserve your business, and the can't keep you off the net.
Happy Friday
Re:Government as usual (Score:4, Insightful)
If they can't govern themselves, employ themselves, feed themselves, or keep the lights on maybe it's time for them to join the U.S.A.
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Oh please! You've had since 1973 to find an alternative or three. That's 35 years of sitting on your asses yelling "please,sir, may I have another?".
Correction (Score:3, Informative)
Some of the poorest in the nation. The African American population still has the lowest household income.
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Great idea. Too bad no one alive today is responsible for the murders and theft of the past, and the Native Americans alive today only exist because of such interference in the first place.
"We" didn't do it. Quit using that word to further your political agendas, Mr. Noam Chomsky Quote. People did it in the past, yes, but that doesn't mean the sin magically transfers to all the people still alive, like some sort of "original sin" from the bible.
Right... (Score:2, Insightful)
...the concentration of wealth has nothing to do with who controlled the land and resources of this country which were taken by force.
We did it, and we still benefit from the economic prosperity of our forefathers. Stop trying to pretend that you'd be where you are without the trampling of indigenous people. Just because you don't want to feel bad isn't excuse enough.
Of course, this doesn't apply if you are the minority or descendant of the oppressed where you live. But that's doubtful given your opinion on
Re: (Score:2)
yes and tell me all about the bourgeoisie and proletariat while you're at it
Re:Right... (Score:5, Insightful)
We did it, and we still benefit from the economic prosperity of our forefathers.
You may have done it, but I didn't. I moved to the US 6 years ago, so neither I, nor my wife and child owe anything to anyone. Just because I'm a white westerner doesn't mean I'm guilty by association. And just because I'm a white westerner, doesn't mean I'm guilty due to descending from governments who abused the poor native. I'm Irish. I have a good claim to whinge about my ancestors being abused by a rich European government.
In case your sarcasm detector is broken, I'm not claiming anyone owes me anything. I'm just trying to point out the idiocy (and horrendous complexity) in trying to figure out who owes who what.
Do people who's families have been here for 6 generations owe more than people who have only just arrived? What about kids of mixed marriages? In terms of slave reparations, do we just go on skin colour, or do people have to prove that their ancestors were slaves and didn't move here 50 years ago? What about a slave descendant who married a non-slave descendant -- do their kids get less?
What about someone who is half Native American, a quarter German and a quarter English, married to someone who is half Irish, and half Polish-Jewish? How do you settle the English/Irish, German/Jewish, English/Indian, debts there?
It's complicated to the point of being unsolvable, and it's too old. Forget it.
No one gets government handouts due to the particulars of their parentage.
Re:Right... (Score:4, Insightful)
You may have done it, but I didn't
Correct. No one else alive today did it either. All the people who did it are dead. The institutions who did it are still around though, as institutions (governments and companies) outlast people. That's the whole idea of Governments and companies. They provide continuity beyond any one person's death. Think of an institution as an immortal person, whose hands are its employees. Liability doesn't die with the employees but lives on with the institution. Any person can sue another person/government/company for events which cause them disadvantage before they are legally a person [wikipedia.org]. Why single out an indigenous person to be denied that right?
No, you don't owe anything, but your adopted government does. The government existed before you arrived and your arrival doesn't change the government's past actions.
We? (Score:2)
Who is "We" white man?
Do you mean dead people whose skin was a shade not unlike your own?
Crying about the crimes of the long departed and allowing LOSERS and CRYBABIES to trick you into feeling personal guilt and responsibility for those crimes out of superficial resemblance to the perpetrators is RETARDED.
The notion of group responsibility is a leftist canard. You are responsible for your own actions, not for the actions of others, and certainly not for the actions of people who were dead and buried many
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Not only that, but the romantic versions of history like to paint it as if the white man was the only bad person in the situation, when in reality, there's plenty of blame on both sides.
Native Americans and their apologists like to forget that Native Americans did things like ride in, kill people, kidnap women and children, and torture and rape them for years because... they started farming on some land.
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Re:Oh the government works... (Score:4, Interesting)
How many more years are we going to rob Native Americans of livelihood?
Are they prevented from participating in our society? Native Americans are less subject to racism than many other minorities in the US. Anyone can move off the Res and join US society -- at the great expense of losing some of their cultural identity.
Here's an idea: estimate the value of all real estate in the US and start paying some reparations to the surviving family members.
The inheritance tax is specifically intended to prevent the perpetual heredity of vast wealth. At every passing, the majority of a rich family's wealth is transferred to the federal government to be distributed amongst society. Why should they benefit to much from what their distant ancestors once owned? Arguments abound on both sides here.
Or at least give them some decent infrastructure since we destroyed their civilization.
We replaced their civilization with a much more technologically advanced one, against their will. Why should we then provide their remaining lands with the technology that our civilization forced upon them? It's yet another outside force imposing change and diluting their culture. Keep in mind that any native American who wants to partake in modern technology is free to do so of their own accord, without it being thrown upon them.
And if you meet them, they aren't even angry about it
The hell they aren't. The traditional native American societies generally treat visitors quite well. However, the deep resentment for past actions is ingrained in the culture and passed through generations. Rightfully so, perhaps -- but whites are not trusted and never truly a part of the community.
Fuck writing your congressman. If you live near a reservation, call them and ask how you can help.
I doubt they want your help. Their civilizations have existed here with success (by some definitions) and sustainability (by any definition) for so much longer than ours, we have little to offer other than assimilation, which they are fighting hard to avoid. The reservations are supposed to be self-governing, independent nations with full power and authority to do as they please within their borders. Autonomy is the small reward the Nations were given for the great price of being herded into small enclaves. Those who stay on the Res do so by choice -- the choice to place their cultural identity and heritage above the conveniences of non-native life, and the choice to deal with tough conditions (socially, financially, and environmentally) rather than be assimilated. They choose to fight assimilation and cultural dilution rather than accept it. This is a difficult but respectable decision. The internet, and computing technology in general, is a direct pipe for cultural dilution. Most of the world sees this as a great benefit -- we mix and share different customs, memes, and thought processes and in doing so we become more homogeneous. For a small civilization working hard to maintain its differentiation from the vast masses surrounding it, this is a detriment to that goal. The decision, and the means to achieve the desired result, should be up to the tribes themselves -- not well-meaning white folks who want to "help" by making their world more like the surrounding world.
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The only thing we're robbing Native Americans of is a free lunch. And often times, not even that.
Many of them (depending on the tribe) are free to do absolutely nothing, and get paid every month in order to do it. I think that MORE than qualifies for "reparations".
What's more, if any of them actually want to get a college education, guess what! They're all but guaranteed to get full scholarships since they're Native American. They can go to college for free, and not have to work their way through it. T
What book is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just checking.
I'll be laughing my ass of when the Chinese knock you off your land and say, "Look at that white trash. Just sits in his trailer all day and drinks. Can you believe they could only support 300 million people on their land?"
Natives worked less hours, had cleaner air, water, food, and lived sustainably. It's better than we seem capable of. But you probably measure wealth in dollars. How's that been treating you lately? 401K looking good? Oh, and that lack of road thing is probably refuted by every piece of archeology in the western hemisphere, unless your definition of road needs asphalt, in which case there were no roads until the 20th century. Which seems kind of inaccurate.
I imagine your kids are getting some kind of education!
Re:What book is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
That you know about. Period.
Most North American indian cultures were nomadic or semi-nomadic. They therefore had oral cultures because when you move constantly, you don't tend to pack big libraries around, just the tools you need to survive. So no great inventors in North America - I'll give you that one. But authors or musicians? You really have no idea. Were any of the troubadours in the Dark/Middle Age Europe any good? Most of them would have been illiterate so there's no telling is there? If a first millennium musical prodigy hadn't been interested in writing hymns for the church, there would be little trace of his output except in unattributed folk songs that survived hundreds of years to be incorporated into symphonies and pieces by 18th and 19th century composers, or Paul Simon.
Now mind you, if you go south into Mexico and further, the Inca, Aztec, and Maya empires had roads, irrigation, and cities comparable to a lot of Europe, as well as writing, oh and bloodthirsty religions and governments. Now certainly, they stopped evolving technologically after a certain point, but water monopolies have a tendency to suppress research that might upset the status quo. And when your government controls its people through fear, it tends to have a deleterious effect on the production of art.
What I'm getting at is that the lack of the types of artists and creative peoples that you point to as a sign of their savagery is often more due to environmental conditions. There are for instance very strong artistic and cultural traditions in the Pacific Northwest native communities, even though a large number of examples of those artworks were pilfered by missionaries in their zeal to replace the native religions with Christianity. For generations, the government actively worked to suppress native culture by making its core ceremonies illegal. That tends to have a fairly strong negative impact in the transmission of music and myths in a culture with oral traditions.
Note that the same thing happened with native cultures in the Pacific islands like Fiji, Tahiti, etc. because those cultures also had very rich oral and musical traditions. So your statement is only founded on an ignorance of, and ensured by, white missionaries and invaders.
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Affirmative action is the new racism. It is a very effective method of marginalizing non-whites.
"Your ethnicity is a handicap, so here's your cripple check."
But hey, it is just so easy.
What is wrong with saying "Sorry, folks, but the world is a real place and sometimes fucked up shit happens. Deal with it." and letting the chips fall where they may? Oh, no that would be awful! People coming from the bottom would actually have to work hard, and would have to teach their children to va
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That's what happens all over the world.
And that's also a major cause of conflicts around the world, too.
We have similar issues here in NZ. It's about admitting wrong-doings and being diplomatic, rather than this antiquated notion of conquering other countries.
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I'm sorry for what happened to the ancestors of Native Americans, just as i'm sorry what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust, i'm sorry for Rwanda and Bosnia and The Crusades and i'm sorry for what Hussein did to the Kurds and i'm sorry for Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge and i'm
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Don't know much about geography... (Score:4, Informative)
.
allow me to introduce you to the geography of the 26,000 square mile Navajo Nation [lapahie.com]