Bloatware Removal Threatens PC Industry Profits 341
Anti-Globalism sends along a piece on how a consumer-friendly service is not so good for PC manufacturers. "Before they ship PCs to retailers like Best Buy, computer makers load them up with lots of free software. For $30, Best Buy will get rid of it for you. That simple cleanup service is threatening the precarious economics of the personal computer industry. Software companies pay hundreds of millions of dollars to PC makers like Hewlett-Packard to install their photo tools, financial programs, and other products, usually with some tie-in to a paid service or upgrade. With margins growing thinner than most laptops, this critical revenue can make the difference between profit and loss for the computer makers, industry analysts say."
We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Informative)
Thankfully, Linux comes pretty free of bloatware. I guess they don't like that artificially inflated revenues by shoving crapware in people's faces is now heading back towards "realistic revenues by giving people what they actually want"?
I seem to recall a time way back when some company actually installed gator with their pc's bloatware.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Informative)
Other companies already build similar computers without bloatware, but the prices are higher and they have fewer customers.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I know a fair number of people who won't fly particular airlines if there's any reasonable alternative available because of the bad service they've gotten from them. It's obviously not unlimited, for instance they might be willing to pay an extra 10% to avoid the undesirable airline but not an extra 30%, but they will pay a certain amount extra not to have to deal with something they've had problems with before.
Flying (Score:2, Interesting)
bloatware on the Mac (Score:3, Insightful)
You're right in that I'm willing to sacrifice convenience for freedom, but I don't pay to have bloatware removed. I'm a Mac user.
What, you didn't get any bloatware installed on your Mac? I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro, and while I wouldn't exactly call all of them bloatware there are a number of programs installed I don't want. The first, which is bloatware, is MS Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive. Most of the iApps I don't use either, though I admit many others do. Aperture is there along with GarageB
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Everyone want's to maximize their economy. If you're flying for experiance, you want 1st class on hawaiian. FAT reclining leather seats and food that was better than some 5 star restaurants I've been too.
However, if you just want to "get there alive" well no worries, because it's federally regulated, If the "hardware" doesn't work, you die. No one legally makes money when people die. For the best value on a plane, all you need is a seat, a place for luggage, and the lowest price available.
Computers are
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I have flown with Air Hawaii. Twice. There and back. Never again.
This was not long after the roof came off of one of their 737s, back in the mid '80s. They may have improved since but
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Reasonable service is also a factor when buying ticket...
Flying is like sitting on a collective toilet for several hours. And considering all security measures etc. today you start to be willing to pay at least for some comfort in the chair. Maybe the security measures are promoted by the airline industry to make people more willing to pay for comfort?
As for bloatware - I always nuke the standard installation and make a clean installation of Windows whenever necessary. The security risks and performance iss
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Some people have spoken. 9% apparently don't want bloatware. 30% apparently care about money the most. 30% care about quality more than money, but less than bloatware. 5% apparently care for hardware specs above all.
Essentially, bloatware is really adware, and the reason the computers are so cheap is because of the adware. Remove the adware, and PCs go up in price.
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Regular airline travelers who fly more than once or twice a year tend to pick airlines where they know they'll get adequate service. Some airlines treat you so damned poor, or nickle-and-dime you to the point that you'll never fly them, regardless of price.
However, the average home consumer isn't buying tons of computers all the time, so all they care about is price and specs like you said. And most of them don't understand specs.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Insightful)
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not true.. i work for a company that does alot of travel.. and we do pay more for certian airlines because it is a better ride.
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That's mostly because if you upgrade to a more comfortable airline, it's your bum that enjoys the seat, but it's the company's money that pays for it. This is the whole point of 'business class' travel: most people are happy to spend someone else's money on their own comfort, but not their own money.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Funny)
I'm not going to take advice from someone who doesn't know that "douche nugget" is two words, you illiterate douche nugget.
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One could contend that douche-nugget is a compound word best served with a hyphen. I rather prefer douche-nozzle myself.
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In/around Europe there's a big difference between what you get if you fly with a budget airline for £25 or a quality airline for ten times that.
But I wouldn't choose between British Airways and Air France on anything other than price.
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Like Ryanair where you have to pay extra for everything, even the permission to bring luggage - and then they dump you at some rural airport with limited connections which means that you will pay the price anyway, but on the ground.
Air France is a "no go" on my list. Rude behavior, bad timing, sleepover at hotel rooms that looks like they are rented per hour etc.
Iceland Air and Virgin Atlantic are currently on my positive list.
SAS is somewhere in between right now.
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Singapore is above average, Cathay Pacific is da bomb.... so to speak.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Funny)
Air France is a "no go" on my list. Rude behavior [...]
What part of Air France don't you understand?
(No offense intended, it was just too easy...)
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Unfortunately, we don't have anything like that in the US. Our budget airlines are about half the price of the major ones. It's unheard of to buy tickets here for a couple bucks like you can on Ryanair.
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Should and will are different. I will not fly on an Airbus unless there is simply no other way. The chances of something going wrong on an airline are quite small, but if that number comes up I'd much rather be in a Boeing product than Airbus. But I'm not the normal passenger so I have no illusions as to how people actually choose. Cost.
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Should passengers be discrimating based on the technical merits of Boeing versus Airbus planes Should and will are different. I will not fly on an Airbus unless there is simply no other way. The chances of something going wrong on an airline are quite small, but if that number comes up I'd much rather be in a Boeing product than Airbus. But I'm not the normal passenger so I have no illusions as to how people actually choose. Cost.
Agreed. I disagree with Airbus's philosophy that the computer knows more than the pilot (thus the computer overrides the pilot); unlike Boeing's philosophy that the pilot is in complete control (and able to override the computer). So I do try to avoid Airbus planes, even if it costs a little more, when I have a choice.
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Theres no limit in an Airbus aircraft to the pilots level of control. The belief that the computer has more of a say is nothing more than a myth perpetrated by people that don't understand what they are saying.
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Can you give this some backup? Not that I doubt you, I'd just be interested to know what the basis for that opinion is...
Re: g-limits (Score:3, Informative)
Certification standards require that all such aircraft be able to withstand 150% of the highest allowable g-limit without structural failure. This is true for both Boeing and Airbus aircraft--and neither manufacturer is going to significantly overbuild their aircraft, because that adds weight. In fact, if tests show the structure is stronger than that, they will remove some to save weight.
And a properly-designed fly-by-wire system doesn't "trump pilot judgment." It puts in g-limits (so you don't rip the
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the PC has become a revenue stream much like the store shelves at you local retail outlet. Very much of what is on the shelf and where it is on the shelf is paid to the retailer to get the product there. Customer product demands didn't do it, money did. The Windows PC is that way and has been for over 10 years. IMO, this is why you have not seen Open Office loaded on any of these Windows PCs. There is nobody paying to put it there and there is someone paying to put other applications there.
Good for Best Buy
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:4, Interesting)
They're all surprised when they find out it's not rocket science, and they end up with a better pc than they'd get at Best Buy for a fraction of the cost, custom built to their needs and sans bloatware. Many have gone on to build their next generation pc without my help.
I think that's a bigger threat to retail PC sales than removing bloatware, the current generation who are growing up with gadgets and computers will be even more likely to take on building their own computers. It really makes no sense to buy a retail pc, they cost more, they come with stuff you don't need, they're missing stuff you do need, they're little more than marketing in a box. I think the only reason people buy them is because they are intimidated by the prospect of building their own, or don't realize they're being gamed.
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In your geeky dreams. MOST of the people that go to Best Buy don't know a serial cable from a box of Wheaties. Maybe some of your gamer friends have been turned on to DIY and that's great, but the Great Unwashed doesn't want to be bothered.
Not to mention how hard it is to build a laptop from compo
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lol you should be modded funny.
However, the guy is correct actually. There is a growing market due to the disparity between retail price and buying parts individually that is well over the cost of inconvenience.
I am seeing such interest increase actually, likewise I'm seeing an increase in the number of people interested in Linux as games are now being supported more and more (but not flawless, of course)
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Informative)
I used to feel that the same way, but the last time I looked at building a basic box for a family member I found that I basically couldn't beat Dell's prices - maybe $50, but not enough to compensate for the extra effort of buying pieces and assembling them.
At the high end I think you are correct, if only because I can cut back on expensive components I don't care about.
But given the economies of scale that the big operators have, it is hard to beat them significantly on price.
Re:We call this the linux philosophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Xubuntu! HaikuOS! (Score:2)
Xubuntu is a great environment based of XFCE. I use it. It even runs well on QEMU on a simulated Pentium II.
HaikuOS, which was inspired by BeOS, looks quite impressive. The footprint of the full distro is under 100 Meg, and it's very finely architected for responsiveness.
Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the one hand, I think this is a sleazy practice and I'll be happy to see it go.
On the other hand, it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice, so the discount you get on your PC for it is pretty nice.
I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking of Mom and Pops, I for one welcome this change (no memes intended).
I'm getting tired of having my mom and dad (not to mention the other umpteen dozens of people in my life who are in the same boat) call and ask what program xyz does, when I don't have their computer, have never heard of xyz, and can only make broad guesses as to the purpose of the program based on the name. I mean, sure, most are genuinely helpful, but it's not like computers come with big thick welcome guides anymore like they used to.
Anything that helps make life easier for my mom or dad when they get a new computer helps make my life easier as a side effect, and I'm okay with that. Plus, it helps us to figure out what's supposed to be there when we come over and work on their computers. Hopefully it will also be the end of my sister-in-laws complaining that their free game that came with their computer just closed on them and won't re-open... This always leads me to have this fun and exciting conversation
"Did you read the screen or did you just call me instead? ... ... ... ... ... ...
Uh huh, now read me what it says
Uh huh, so when it says you've played for an hour and you should now purchase the game, what does that mean to you?
Well I would guess that it was a free trial, to get you hooked, so that you will give them money. I would suggest that you get up and walk away from the computer though, as you'll need to come up for air instead of playing [the same bakery game with lots of different skins so it looks like a dog salon or whatever]
No, I don't know where to get the full version for free
No, I won't just 'make it work', you'll have to pay the $$$
Okay, well I'm at work, bye!"
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:4, Funny)
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Wait a minute, that's what this entire article is about!
I have had enough trouble getting warranty support for DOA mobos, processors, power supplies, etc. that I generally don't bother building machines anymore.
For most people, it works best and costs least to buy a $300 closeout special from microcenter and if it doesn'
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"I have had enough trouble getting warranty support for DOA mobos, processors, power supplies, etc. that I generally don't bother building machines anymore"
I have had great support from vendors like ASUS and EVGA. Infact I was so thrilled w/ EVGA's support that I will make them my #1 brand for videocards! Though I must say. I haven't had hardware die on me in a long time, and the one time I sent out a video card, it was actually MY fault. (I switched to graphical F@HOME for somereason, and it doesn't pl
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Even footing (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.
I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al: Apple doesn't load down their Macs with a lot of third-party bloatware.
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Please read my post again. (Score:2)
Sorry, the difference between Macs and PCs in price [slashdot.org] is too great to be just subsidized by this extra software.
I'm sorry, but what part of "one of the reasons" did I leave unclear?
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No, they load it up with their own bloatware.
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Apple used to include a bunch of software, especially games. My old PowerMac 6500 came with Marathon 2, Mechwarrior 2, and Al Unser Jr. Arcade Racing; my G3 iMac came with Otto Matic and Deimos Rising; both came with AppleWorks, and a lot of other interesting stuff.
These days, you get... iLife and Front Row.
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice, so the discount you get on your PC for it is pretty nice.
Oh? How's that? I buy a laptop for business use. I am keenly interested in keeping on the safe side of licensing because I don't want the BSA jackboots on my back. I haven't bought a boxed copy of Windows so do not have an installer disk. The OEM media restores my drive to the same state as when I first brought it home.
I'm an IT guy and totally happy with do-it-yourself; I'm typing this on a system I built from Newegg parts. Still, it's not at all obvious to me how I'd clean up that laptop without involving The Pirate Bay or shelling out for official installation disks.
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:4, Informative)
I do Unix. I bought the laptop to run Quickbooks and some industry-specific applications. I appreciate the link, but the point was that you don't have to be a complete babe in the woods to have these sorts of problems.
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You can select what gets removed. If you like the google toolbar, go ahead and clear that checkbox. Wordperfect? I don't see that on the list. If you are talking about the trial version of Microsoft Office that stops working after 30 days, again: Only a retard wants that.
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:5, Funny)
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Companies buy a volume license version of Windows that gives you permission to make copies of the installation media for N number of machines. The fact that you might have license for Windows does not give you permission to download an image for it from the net. Local copyright law might give you that right but YMMV. Also OEM Windows serials wont work on vanilla Windows CDs. You do have (usually) the right to make couple backup copies of the installation media.
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My mom was the sysadmin for the world's second installation of a Xerox Star system (the first commercial WIMP desktop). She can do her own BSD upgrades.
Re:Not sure how I feel about this... (Score:5, Informative)
This isn't always true. My fiancee got a laptop a year or so ago that came with no discs whatsoever. It gave you the option of burning restore discs, which included all the bloatware. There was no way, short of buying a retail copy of Vista or going pirate, to reformat/install without the bloatware. Fortunately most of it uninstalled fairly cleanly, but "just format and reinstall!!" isn't always an option.
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Then I'll give you a hint...
thepiratebay.com
Its all there, XP SP2 corp edition with serials and all. Verifies good vs WGA.
And even having a full "library" of software, I still choose Ubuntu. These days, unless its playing a game with friends (which invariably use Windows), I'm hanging around multimedia apps and stuff in Linux.
It Just Works.
Your failed business model is not my problem (Score:5, Insightful)
The phrase 'Adapt or die' applies to corporations, too. The fact that people will pay $30 to have this crap removed should be telling you something.
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It's pretty appalling that they have to pay at all to get rid of it. "Awfully nice OS you have there... Would be a shame if anything were to happen to it, eh?"
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That's a ridiculous stance. By that stance, every retailer is responsible for every defect in the manufacturer's product, no matter what it may be. If I buy a new microwave from Wal-Mart, and it's nicked? Their fault!
This obviously isn't the case. It's what we have warranties for. If the product is faulty, that's a beef you need to take up with the manufacturer, not the retailer. If you want the retailer to fix the manufacturer's screw-up, there's no reasonable cause for it to be free. It wasn't the retaile
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Does an OEM make more or less than $30 by preinstalling all that junk?
Re:Your failed business model is not my problem (Score:5, Funny)
The phrase 'Adapt or die' applies to corporations, too.
Actually, it's "Adapt or get legislation passed protecting your business model", but thank you for playing.
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My guess is that number 4 is actually something like this: Bloatware makers whine to manufacturers about this, manufacturers require contracts with retailers stating that, if they perform bloatware removal services, they will pay a premium to distribute the manufacturer's PCs.
Alternatively, this is all just a flash in the pan as the average computer buyer doesn't understand why they should pay $30 to remove all that cool free software. People who know why they should remove the crap know how to do it themse
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I know, I can build a PC myself from parts but the next PC I will buy for my wife will come from a retailer. The reasons are:
- Less assle
- Lower cost than building the same myself
- The pleasure to format a Windows partition to put Linux
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1) Because it is for me cheaper to go from Brussels (in Belgium) to Lille (in France) (121km / 75.2miles) to buy my computer in a retail than buy it on a Belgian web site. That could go to 20% cheaper in the French retail than in the Belgian web site without the delivering in account.
2) If I order on a website, I have to take 1 day off to receive my order (if they could deliver on the same day they said they will deliver).
3) I take this trip as an occasion to visit some familly members living near Lille.
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People who know why they should remove the crap know how to do it themselves.
Yes, but once they're out of college, their hour is worth more than $30, so it's still economical to have it done instead of doing it yourself.
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Yes, but once they're out of college, their hour is worth more than $30
In a good economy, and in a high-COL town. Slashdot is in the United States, and the U.S. economy isn't as good as it used to be, so some companies aren't paying $30 per hour for a computer science or software engineering graduate with no prior employment.
Advertising (Score:3, Insightful)
The bloatware construes more advertising & product placement (literally, oddly) than a constructive service. This sounds a lot like getting a TiVo or the like in order to scrub commercials out of your favorite shows.
Do that many people really sign up for the full versions of the software that comes on their computers?
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I know for one vendor it's worth it. Dell and the scumbags at Mcafee give you a 30 day trial for antivirus,firewall, etc on your brand new PC. Soon you start hearing about how your computer will no longer be protected from viruses. My guess is most people don't know any better and simply pay up. They aren't ever aware that there are quality Free alternatives. Year after year they pay up.
You can be sure that for some vendors it is very much worth the price of being able to get their foot in the door first.
Simple solution (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe the computers these days are too cheap. If you're not making enough money and this software is pissing people off, just remove the software and raise the price. It's not like most people are going to start building their own computers.
Remove the crappy software, raise the price, and sell the computer as a "premium" edition. People aren't going to stop buying computers.
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Heck, it is getting to the point where I'd almost rather buy a new keyboard than go through the hassle of cleaning mine. And when I am taking care of family's virus ridden computers, I am always doing the mental calculations and figuring that it would be more expedient to buy them a new PC. Hardware has dropped in price so much, and their capabilities have far exceeded 90% of the population's needs. Consequently companies like Dell are looking to squeeze every last nickle out of it they can.
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Remove the crappy software, raise the price, and sell the computer as a "premium" edition. People aren't going to stop buying computers.
Interesting idea. But it's a marketing nightmare.
Premium edition features:
-Less software
-More expensive
-No preinstalled spyware by us and our.."friends"
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Actually a big part of the problem is that Windows is to expensive.
The reason that a Linux PC costs about the same as a Windows PC is that the manufactures make enough money of the caplets to pay for Windows.
Maybe all PCs should be sold naked and then you have to buy what ever OS you want.
BTW most serves I see are sold that way.
Terminology (Score:2)
They don't load them with lots of free software. They load them up with lots of proprietary software, and pretty nasty stuff it is too. Even if you use 'free' to mean 'free of charge, gratis' that is not really accurate here, since the manufacturer is paid to install it on the PC. It's more like proprietary software that has a negative price.
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And maybe that also explains the unwillingness for PC manufacturers to provide you with uninstalled PC which means that you have to pay the Microsoft tax even if you are going to run Linux, AROS or whatever on it.
And since the M$ tax exists it's no wonder that some people runs "illegal" versions of Windows on their machines - since they have already paid Microsoft.
And yet another issue with the M$ tax is that many large companies buys these PC:s and then have a volume license agreement too, which means that
Sell PCs for the right bloody price then! (Score:3, Insightful)
The current policy is extortion on non-savvy users. It's like a car dealership filling your new car with trash and charging you to take it out again!
Drop the gimmicks, and get into selling PCs as a business. Get the markup right, make a profit, and compete. If people WANT to buy computers that are $30 cheaper and full of crap, that's their decision. Don't regulate it either way - do what the market can stand.
Reduction in Profits for big companies (Score:2)
Hopefully means that maybe Ma/Pa shops, and independants can start building custom PCs again! I can't compete w/ Dell on a (new)build till I hit the 2K+ mark in parts @ pricewatch "wholesale" prices, then I can take 5% max (not counting time). Has a new Alienware or Voodoo hasn't sprung up yet? Though if there is a good botique dealer out there that I don't know about, I'd be interested in looking @ their stuff (for research of course, I build all my own comps).
Oh.....Cry me a River.... (Score:2)
NOTE: After the "Geek Squad" spy camera in the bathroom scandal and bulk copying customer's MP3 and JPG content scandals,
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screw them (Score:2)
If their business model requires annoying customers and squeezing them for every dollar, then fuck them. They deserve to lose profits and die.
A company should never *use* its customers (Score:5, Insightful)
It is abusive for a company to take advantage of their otherwise simple business relationships with their customers.
When a company uses a customer's business relationship to gain even more money by selling that customer's information, by loaded unwanted software (that invariably kills the machine's performance), by inserting ads, or even subscribing them to mailing lists of "their partners," it all amounts to abuse of the business relationship outside of the desired results expected by the customer.
Any time a company annoys a customer, they risk losing that customer. Just because "everyone does it" is no excuse for doing so. Even my preferred vendors do this and while I have learned to live with it by not even powering on the computer in its default configuration in most cases, instead installing the OS from scratch, it is a lot of work that should be needless.
To be clear, the current culture of using or leveraging customers to make additional profits is bad for core business.
PC decrapifyer (Score:3, Informative)
So computer prices rise by $30... (Score:2)
Hmmm... Best Buy charges $30 for the cleanup, customers are willing to pay that $30.
Computer companies are currently getting $30 per computer for bloatware.
If they can't include bloatware, that means... prices will rise by $30, but customers won't have to pay Best Buy $30 to remove it...
Where's the downside?
Well what I want to know is... (Score:2)
How is this going to affect the eternal "Macs are overpriced" debate if they start selling PC's at their "real" cost without all that crap on them? :)
"more expensive" != "overpriced" (Score:3, Informative)
Mac's aren't "overpriced". Macs do cost more, but OS X is worth more than Windows Vista (if you don't agree, don't get a Mac, sheesh).
And a $30 change in the cost of a PC isn't going to make much difference.
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I consider Macs to be well worth their price, I'm typing this on a $3000 Macbook Pro. :) $30 is what Best Buy charges to remove the bloatware, who knows the actual amount OEM's receive from these companies per PC. It could be significantly higher than $30.
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sigh. (Score:2)
Most pc buyers hate that crapware that is installed on new computers. We all have our preference for apps unless we're completely new to computers, then Linux is for you.
I say stop pushing crapware down our throats to begin with.
I'm not sure I like this change... (Score:2)
Preloaded software is a huge advantage ... (Score:3, Interesting)
... to people still stuck with dialup speed access (to the internet or a BBS) or who need to have media mailed to them. Of course the reality today is that those with broadband access no longer need to have everything preloaded. The vendors adopted that model back when it was helpful to consumers. But like most big corporations, they are now stuck on something that no longer makes any sense.
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And there are still things that you can't do with a laptop.
A desktop is always ahead of a laptop when it comes to performance and extendability. Few laptops are able to support 3 monitors (as I use at home) at the same time.
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Actually, the only real economic response is to raise prices to match costs. If the adware is removed, so too is the income from the adware.
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$30 is about 30 minutes work for an ordinary consultant. For a Geek Squad it may be an hour's work worth, all depending on the salary of that person.
Just do the math and see if it's worth it to provide the service. It may be that it's a bit subsidized, but not much. They probably have automated a lot of the cleaning so it should be a cost that's reasonable for that service.
What they really want is to sell things. Returning customers with problems is a cost, returning customers that buys more devices like an
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because then it becomes "pay us $30 or 'Knuckles' Dave and 'Formatter' John will install Roxio CD Burner Starter Edition on your computer, and you wouldn't want us to do that now would you".
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Yeah, I feel your pain.
I bought a Thinkpad T61 a year ago, to find out that it was chock full of crapware [microsoft.com]. Thankfully, I had a removal tool [ubuntu.com] handy ...
In all seriousness, I didn't want it, but the manufacturer insisted on installing it, otherwise they wouldn't sell it to me.