Windows 7 Trades Email and Photo Apps For Downloadable Ones 496
arcticstoat writes "Microsoft has said that it plans to remove a lot of the standard apps from Windows 7 in order to make the new OS 'cleaner.' Among the apps for the chop are Windows Mail, Windows Photo Gallery and Windows Movie Maker, which will no longer be included with the operating system as standard.
Instead, equivalent versions of the apps will be available from Microsoft's Windows Live download service as optional free downloads, much like the new BETA versions of the apps that Windows Live offers today." Meanwhile, jammag writes that "tech pundit Mike Elgan posits that the rushed-to-market Windows 7 — due in 2010, now being beta released this October — may in fact merely be Vista with new packaging.
Windows 7 (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Funny)
That is what Microsoft Malicious Software Removal Tool does .... maliciously removes software.
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Funny)
yeah, and you can download a free copy of a malicious software removal live CD at http://www.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com]
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Interesting)
it's Vista Service Pack 2.
It's true, you know (though it will probably be Vista SP3, as they'll need to roll a new desktop GUI). Microsoft has recognized that the corporate customer base didn't warm to Vista and is "waiting for Windows 7". No dummy, Microsoft will release *something* branded "Windows 7" ASAP.
Of course, this may blow up big time if the fundamental issues with Vista aren't resolved. Since one fundamentel issue seems to be "it doesn't add anything important over XP", MS may be in trouble here. Big companies skip one release of Windows all the time, but MS really doesn't companies to stop and ask "wait a minute, why do we do these upgrades again?".
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Microsoft has plenty of options for making this release interesting to business. Really, they just need to say "it is boring, it is a bit more secure, it has a few more Palladium-style paranoia features, your willy is big enough already, it will work on your existing hardware, nobody will need retraining." Sure, that marketing won't be interesting to the geeks, nor will it entice the home users to upgrade.
My theory is that Microsoft has accepted that lots of people skip a version, and is going to adjust
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"stop and ask "wait a minute, why do we do these upgrades again?"."
In a large networked environment basing your desktops on a version of windows that no longer gets security updates does not seem sensible to me. Also as a release gets older finding suitable hardware/software/drivers for it will get harder and harder.
So you either have to let new machines have the newest as they come in (meaning you support a mixture of releases) or you do a mass upgrade at some point in the release cycle.
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Microsoft has recognized that the corporate customer base didn't warm to Vista and is "waiting for Windows 7". No dummy, Microsoft will release *something* branded "Windows 7" ASAP.
You know, you say that, and it would totally make sense, and I'd agree with you, but why is it going to take until 2010 to reskin the OS? Apple will come out with a completely new version before then, Linux should have some awesome stuff for sandboxing and virtualization by then, heck even Novell will have a new OS by that time.
So what exactly is Microsoft doing? Are they truly that incompetent that they can't get a cleanup of their operation system done by the middle of next year (despite Vista being
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeesh, I'd rather they repackage XP with a new look and SP4 and sell me the stack as Windows Mohave. Just guarantee support for another 5 years and I might actually pay!
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Funny)
Also known as the "Avoid Further EU Fines" edition.
Abort, Retry, Fail? (Score:5, Funny)
I think the old error message ABORT, RETRY, FAIL? pretty much sums up Vista.
But it's not vista Beta 3 as much as it named after the movie SEVEN.
it's got the seven deadly sins including sloth and gluttony.
And at the end, you'll with it was your head in the box.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Secretly, that project was an internal code for "impromptu office party." We let the press think what they want ;).
I mean, really, why would we name our product after a fruity (okay, mediciny) alcohol?
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Re:Simple test of worthiness - trust me, it works (Score:4, Informative)
The problem with Vista was that it wouldn't run decently on the computers it was being sold on .
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Interesting)
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Nope, the author is a hack who is just trying to evoke anti-MS feelings to get people to read his story. Who takes statements like "I presented ____ a public challenge" seriously? It's like the group doing the data recovery challenge - there's no incentive to take the challenge, and plenty of reason not to.
Among those reasons: what happens when someone promises a feature that is canceled or modified for quality control purposes? Does it suddenly become a failure to deliver, or is it delivering a skillfully
Re:Windows 7 (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay - jokes over. Everyone can go now.
Seriously - why are we making this so difficult?
We have Windows like this:
Windows 3 (pre-9x?)
Windows 3.11 for Workgroups (NT3)
Windows NT (NT4)
Windows 95 (Win9x)
Windows 98 (Win9x - 95 with actual USB support)
Windows ME (Win9x - 98, but broken out of the box)
Windows 2000 (NT5)
Windows XP (NT5 - 2000 but with Fisher-Price lickable interface)
Windows Vista (NT6)
So - that brings us to Windows 7, presumably NT7. What we're really speculating is that despite the labelling, Windows 7 is actually still NT6, but possibly the latest version of ME. Since 98, you notice a trend?
98, ME (9x)
2000, XP (NT5)
Vista, ? (NT6)
? (NT7)
Looks to me like he's onto something.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
3.11 and prior are DOS. ME/98/95..also DOS.
NT started at version 3.1. Don't confuse with windows 3.11/3/2/1.
XP is available in 64 bit, and is a tiny bit cleaner the 2000. Not the huge jump they hyped, but it was an improvement.
For example CD burning was made a lot easier, and USB works a lot better.
Re:Windows 7 (Score:4, Informative)
Windows NT shipped as Windows NT with versions 3.1, 3.5, 3.51, and 4.0. Windows 2000 would actually say "Windows NT (Version 5.0.xxxx)" in response to the VER command. Windows XP, prior to Service Pack 1, would also say "Windows NT (Version 5.1.xxxx)". XP's VER command now says it's XP, but we know what's really in there.
One could argue that Windows NT 2.0 was sold as OS/2; the low-level APIs are very similar in semantics, though the names and calling convention are different between OS/2 and NT. And, of course, they pulled the OS/2 GUI and file manager and put the Windows ones on it. This argument is helped by the fact that "OS/2 Warp 3" is versioned as "2.3", and "OS/2 Warp 4" is "2.4". Microsoft got the V3-and-up rights, and IBM kept the V1-and-V2 rights in the OS/2 break-up.
(For a time, NT even included enough stuff to run 16-bit OS/2 programs. *shudder* Maybe it still does, I'm happy to say I haven't seen a 16-bit OS/2 program in 12 years.)
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Just a few corrections...
One could argue that Windows NT 2.0 was sold as OS/2; the low-level APIs are very similar in semantics, though the names and calling convention are different between OS/2 and NT. And, of course, they pulled the OS/2 GUI and file manager and put the Windows ones on it.
The OS/2 GUI you speak of, at that time, was the Win3.x style GUI on OS/2 (OS/2 v1.3), retooled for NT from the joint OS/2 code.
This argument is helped by the fact that "OS/2 Warp 3" is versioned as "2.3", and "OS/2 Warp 4" is "2.4". Microsoft got the V3-and-up rights, and IBM kept the V1-and-V2 rights in the OS/2 break-up.
IBM's versioning conventions seem to follow this path...
v1 = MS/IBM joint venture (they both wrote code, IBM fixed MS's so a product could be released)... the numbers corresponded to vX.Z meaning X=version, Z=subversion.
v2 = IBM's OS/2 releases, where much of the MS code was thrown out (and we saw IBM's GUI instead of MS's GUI).
Thus a 2.xz release is
While this may not please some... (Score:5, Insightful)
I rather like the idea of having an OS with as little on it as possible.
That way I can add what I see fit, much like the Server OS.
Hey it's a step in the right direction.
Re:While this may not please some... (Score:5, Insightful)
I rather like the idea of having an OS with as little on it as possible.
Exactly! I know from a marketing standpoint you want to cram in as much of your own products as possible, in order to keep your brand in front of the customer, but having a truly modular OS would be very nice indeed.
As a "non-technical user" there are a lot of Windows services that I don't use that would be nice to remove without having to worry about undermining the stability and underlying structure of the OS.
Re:While this may not please some... (Score:4, Insightful)
I rather like the idea of having an OS with as little on it as possible.
Exactly! I know from a marketing standpoint you want to cram in as much of your own products as possible, in order to keep your brand in front of the customer, but having a truly modular OS would be very nice indeed.
It still works ok from a marketing standpoint. This pretty much forces(makes it easier than the alternatives anyway) users to go to Microsoft for simple software. It gets people into the habit of using the MS Live Repository, or whatever, which will help to lock people into using MS software.
It also takes some of the wind from the FOSS folks sails, by creating something similar to the package systems for various distros and quiets some of the anti-trust bundling issues--without really giving up market share for their Apps, because they will be the first found by the average user.
It probably will improve the user experience, but Microsoft will surely find ways to benefit from the new(for them) model. Microsoft benefiting from something does not necessarily mean it is evil.
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Re:While this may not please some... (Score:5, Funny)
I rather like the idea of having an OS with as little on it as possible.
That way I can add what I see fit, much like the Server OS.
Hey it's a step in the right direction.
Next, they should create some kind of ... I don't know, package or application manager maybe, which would allow users to easily add/remove programs ... might have to wait until Windows 8 or 9 for that, though. But, never fear, Microsoft can innovate it. :-)
Re:While this may not please some... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know you were just kidding, but I'd like to contribute.
The Windows Add/Remove Programs menu doesn't even begin to cover what should be removable from the Operating System. Internet Explorer is the back end for a number of programs and cannot be fully removed, a few programs even rely on MSN Messenger and will not allow you to remove it if they are installed. There are all sorts of extra services running, like one for office that waits for it to be installed so it can clean it up. There's Alexa, a never ending assortment of drivers for ancient equipment. The system restore and hibernation services are installed and running whether you want them or not. And even in XP (although this is worse in Vista) the indexing service.
There are replacements for every single one of these applications that are better than the original, yet there is no way to easily remove them. You should check out the nLite program for making your own Windows image to get an idea of all of the cruft that is built into Windows (and isn't anywhere in the add/remove programs menu). With Linux, everything outside of the Kernel can be removed, usually without even restarting. With Windows you need to reinstall just to remove most of this junk, and that's assuming you have the administrative knowledge to make your own custom image.
Re:While this may not please some... (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, nLite is a great option for techies who want to customize their systems - and it's a great tool to have for those folks who wish to dabble in it.
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Unless you happen to have a wireless card that isn't based on one of the 4 supported chipsets.
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But, never fear, Microsoft can innovate it.
And patent it!
Redmond Package Manager... (Score:5, Funny)
has a good ring to it.
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I agree that a leaner OS is a good thing -- however that is accomplished. I also think that separating these apps from the OS would allow them to be updated and improved independently (and presumably more often).
But I think that when most people describe Windows as "bloated", they are referring not to applications (which consume resources when run and then go away when closed), but to startup processes and services which the average user has little control over. What would be really nice would be a fool-pr
I'm a little confused actually (Score:5, Insightful)
When I recommend the Linux distribution I use, one of the things I promote is that:
By this, I mean that you can get set up and ideally have a complete working system right away. Browse the web with a strong browser, set up your email right away, view PDFs (with a fast PDF viewer), listen to music, write documents, spreadsheets, etc. Now, in practice some things don't work right away, but for that I blame general difficulty of installing any operating system (driver issues etc.) and licensing issues (goddamn MP3 license). I think installing an OS will always be a PITA, just on varying levels. Licensing is getting better with more distros offering paid legal licenses for MP3.
Anyway, what I'm getting to is that I feel a complete OS offers a solid platform on which to build. From my experience, casual users are satisfied with the included apps in a modern Linux distro save for maybe a better music player for the music buffs or better photo management for digital camera users. I think a minimal OS translates more to a Slack or Gentoo approach, which I doubt the everyday user wants. This also encourages OEMs to put their crap into EVEN MORE basic uses.
I think the association of Windows and bloat comes not from included MS apps (maybe not including Movie Maker), but instead from OEMs putting their shit on these computers. Good for Microsoft for making ANY change, but I think the real reduction in bloat happens at the installer level, not the OS producer. Let me know when a pig sprouts wings and the OEMs start putting less shit on their builds.
Re:While this may not please some... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't be tricked. It's just a ploy to promote Microsoft's Windows Live download service.
As an MSN messenger user who uses a 3rd party MSN client, I'm not sure I like this.
Why not let me download from Microsoft's site like everything else?
As long... (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as they make sure that OEMs include some. Any, doesn't matter if its Outlook, Windows Live Mail, or whatever third party or open source app you want... Else customers will not be too happy out of the box.
However, historically, with other things that were not included (like, let say, anti-virus for a while), the total trash that OEMs put on it (because they're paid to) really sucks ass, even if there are free alternatives that are really, really good.
Customers are not going to be happy...
Re:As long... (Score:4, Insightful)
When it comes to apps like Windows Mail, I doubt the average person will notice. My impression is that most non-geek, people use webmail.
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I've only known one non-geek person who doesn't use webmail; and he's in his fifties. Everyone else I know in the non-geek crowd uses Yahoo or doesn't use the internet at all.
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Most non-slashdotters use Internet Explorer for their email which is still shipping with Windows, or Outlook, which has never shipped with it.
standard apps? (Score:2)
Windows Movie Maker
What version of Windows did that ship with? I don't recall seeing that as a standard feature before... To say nothing of whether or not I think such a program deserves to be categorized as a "standard application" for an operating system.
Re:standard apps? (Score:5, Informative)
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Not that I've had Windows as my main install for ages (it's now relegated to a virtual machine) but I read "Movie Maker" in the list and went "Huzzah! They've finally decided to ditch that crappy app they install in XP that I've never wanted to use and that I'd find a better alternative of if I did want to make movies". I've never understood why it was one of the core apps.
Re:standard apps? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not only did this ship with XP, as others have noted, but you couldn't remove it.
When I found it on a work computer I had inherited, I tried to remove it. Uninstall? Not listed. Windows Setup? Not listed. Ok, Delete the directory. Success! Five minutes later when I was looking for other things to clear off, I found the directory had been recreated in C:\Program Files\, complete with files! I have no idea where they came from, either, as the computer was not on the network and did not have the Windows CD in (or the install files on the hard drive).
IIRC, when Movie Maker 2 was available on the Windows Update site, there was a note that you wouldn't be able to uninstall it.
Re:standard apps? (Score:5, Informative)
Not only did this ship with XP, as others have noted, but you couldn't remove it.
Well, actually you can, but you have to fiddle with some obscure (and hidden) inf file in order to do so.
As i'm a really nice guy, i found a ms kb about it: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/223182 [microsoft.com]
Talk about informative (nudge, nudge)...
Stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Among the apps for the chop are Windows Mail...
Er... I guess you don't see it this way, Microsoft, but I sure as hell always thought that checking your e-mail was basic computer functionality in this day and age. But hey, what do I know?
Microsoft can talk about a "cleaner" OS all they want, but watch them change their tune when people scream about not being able to check their e-mail on a new PC.
Re:Stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
The majority of people are just fine using web mail via gmail, hotmail, yahoo etc...
It's not going to be an issue.
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Those people are NEVER smart enough to enter an smtp/imap address anyway.
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Re:Stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, normal users use webmail. They don't even know how to set up pop to download their email.
Will they take MSIE out as well? (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be newsworthy!
Re:Will they take MSIE out as well? (Score:5, Insightful)
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They should just include cURL, then people can download whatever they want. (sarcasm)
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User installs Windows, only to find no browser installed by default. "That's okay," says the user, "I'll just download one... from the Internet... without a browser..."
Easily removable and decoupled from the system I could see. But let's not get silly.
The "Internet" does not start with "E" (Score:2)
Not only would it appease various legal observers by following the instructions given to them by courts, it would be the right thing to do.
All that would be needed in its place would be "select the browser of your choice" followed by a menu which would include MSIE, Firefox, Opera, Safari or any of the others that don't come to mind.
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> In other words, place an arbitrary and unnecessary choice barrier between the user and the Internet
Great bit of Newspeak there.
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So what you're saying is... (Score:2, Insightful)
Excellent idea.
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So after years of... (Score:2)
It' not about the apps (Score:5, Insightful)
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This does not sound like a subscription issue to me. Download once does not imply subscription.
What it does sound like is more apps/functionality being secured by Genuine Advantage. I wonder if these apps will also become part of the top pricing tier SKUs after MS failed to deliver much of interest to Vista Ultimate users.
Idiotic move (Score:2)
I think the motivation there is to stuff the OS with download links so that people go to Live.com and download this crud from there instead. This is typical for people who have never offered any software for download and install from their web site. The harsh reality is that only a few percent of users will download, and out of those who do, not all will install. So they'll see a very temporary blip followed by people just going to Google instead. If I have to download, I might as well download Picasa and T
Wow, really. (Score:2)
If the final product of a redesign of an unfavorably viewed operating system has it's e-mail client be written in such a way that it's seen as bloat, you need to seriously reconsider your design philosophy. How hard could it be Microsoft, make the applications in a way that does NOT mix their files and settings into the operating system, has all the files stored in one folder (per application), and uses no registry settings what so ever. Then it won't be bloat, because it's merely existence on the system
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New Vista? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if it's Vista minus the bloatware, DRM and huge resource requirements... it might be actually a decent operating system.
Interesting that Microsoft appears to be actually listening to their users over Vista. That, or they're panicking and being forced to...
Auto-Update (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm a slashdot user.... (Score:5, Funny)
as long as they keep minesweeper and freecell (Score:2)
Sure, when you're stuck on a windows box with time to kill, there's always web games if it's got an internet connection and a browser, but I like being able to assume that I'll always have Minesweeper and FreeCell to waste my time.
Vista or 7? (Score:2, Informative)
You can call it repackaging if you want, and it may not even be worth an upgr
One component I'd like to see made optional (Score:2)
Suits me just fine (Score:2)
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You can't just remove it from Add/Remove Programs? What version of Windows are you running? I don't even install it with my nlite stuff. Sure there are some extra files left over but you're not running them.
Outlook Express was crap so I can understand wanting to remove it. Windows Mail is a decent and well streamlined app though.
Windows 95-Windows 98 anyone? (Score:2)
I'd be surprised if Windows 7 really was a huge re-working of the OS. It seems like they are following the same path they did when they released Windows 98. 98 looked and felt almost identical to 95, but had enough improvements that it made people want to switch.
Telnet? (Score:2)
How about putting in some more useful utilities and maybe a truly powerful CLI that can rival bash?
Captain Obvious strikes again (Score:2)
"tech pundit Mike Elgan posits that the rushed-to-market Windows 7 -- due in 2010, now being beta released this October -- may in fact merely be Vista with new packaging.
Well, duh! It was either that or simply reissue XP as-is and call it Windows Classic.
Re:This webification has gone too far. (Score:5, Funny)
I can do better than that (Score:5, Funny)
I didn't even read the *title, so I'll just cover all my bases:
Steve Ballmer, the RIAA, Sarah Palin, and software patents are evil and must be *stopped!
"All my bases"? (Score:5, Funny)
I didn't even read the *title, so I'll just cover all my bases
You can cover them all you want, but you can't cover the fact that they are belong to us.
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I'm only be rated as off topic because this board is filled with Linux zealots... you know, a bunch of free speech types that just want to censor everything that they disagree with.
Keep that attitude and you'll be labeled as a Troll too. Now get off my bridge. ;)
When I used Windows though, Outlook Express was my favored email client until I found Thunderbird. As a "Linux Zealot" I will assure you that I don't dislike the supporters of closed software, just anyone spreading fud about it or its supporters.
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I'm only be rated as off topic because this board is filled with Linux zealots...
People might be nicer to you (and mod you higher) if you didn't call people morons.
You misunderstood the summary and article. They are not replacing them with web apps, but leaving them off of the install disk for you to install optionally.
THAT, along with your name-calling, is why you were modded down.
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Re:This webification has gone too far. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, web-based email has the benefit of being accessible from wherever you're at. That's a huge advantage -- when I'm visiting my family, it's nice to be able to check my email.
Plus, it's not like you can't use your favorite POP client to connect to gmail and read your mail in whatever client you like.
Cheers
Re:Yes, let's remove the two most-used programs (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Yes, let's remove the two most-used programs (Score:5, Informative)
Partly right. Microsoft didn't get prosecuted for merely being a monopoly or for bundling apps with their OS. They were prosecuted for abusing their monopoly to force competitors out of the market with unsavory tactics including threatening their own hardware partners. Intel wanted to develop a faster, cleaner Java compiler. Microsoft called a meeting insinuating that they were going to favor AMD in their development if they did. The made sure that their OEMs understood that to keep their OEMs prices, the OEMs would not pre-load Netscape onto their machines, etc.
For Apple to do the same thing, they would have to threaten BestBuy and Fry's that loading Picasa2 would be not tolerated and the like. Also Apple would make it nearly impossible to uninstall Mail or iPhoto. Right now to do that is the same as any other app: delete it. Now you can't fully uninstall QuickTime as some of the basic libraries of QuickTime are used in their Quartz rendering engine. But nothing stops you from using another movie player.
Revisionist or Selective, take your pick (Score:3, Insightful)
What planet are you from? The EU Commission's primary arguments were: 1) Bundled Media player hurts competition and 2) the monopoly of Windows on the desktop requires full documentation of proprietary server protocols, regardless of server market share.
In other words, bundling and monopoly position are precisely why they've been prosecuted recently!
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It's not just that they included functionality, but how they went about doing it. MS not only used their power to bully hardware manufacturers (as another comment reply noted), but they also tend to intertwine their apps so thoroughly with the OS that even a savvy user would have a hard time removing them.
Apple ships OSX with a web browser and a mail client, but if you never want to see them again, it's a simple matter of going into your apps folder and dragging them to the garbage. During the MS anti-trust
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OSX is a lot like Windows in the web browser aspect. Safari depends on Webkit, and Webkit is closely tied into the operating system. You can certainly delete Safari, just as you can delete iexplore.exe and its associated icons, but in both cases the underlying rendering engine remains on the comuter.
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Re:Honestly, what's a "research" (Score:5, Informative)
Except minwin was chopped from Windows 7-- and instead they're going with an 'evolution' of the NT-series Vista kernel.
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In fact, Slashdot ran a story on it [slashdot.org] a while back. It's the same thing they did with Vista: announce some huge redesign, then progressively scale it back until the only thing changed is the UI.
Interestingly, every other OS except Windows 7 includes all of these programs and more by default. Basically, Microsoft is trading a lack of functionality for not having to implement a decent uninstall feature (or, even better, a package manager).
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NT6 *IS* MinWin. Why is it so hard to understand??
http://shippingseven.blogspot.com/2008/05/windows-7-wont-have-compact-minwin.html
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Comparing Lotus Notes to Mail.app is like comparing a multitool to a pocket knife. Yes, Notes is insanely bloated, but it's mail, groupware, an office suite, and app framework all rolled together.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)