Jason Fried On Focus and Avoiding Interruptions 102
BigTimOBrien writes "Jason Fried, founder of 37signals, talks about the day-to-day operations of 37signals. How does the company work, and what are the guiding principles behind the design of Basecamp and Campfire? He talks about the importance of avoiding interruptions and the relative unimportance of both physical space and mandatory meetings."
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Informative)
They are also the guys behind Ruby on Rails. Considering that topic is brought up quite often on Slashdot, I'm sure most people here have heard of it.
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I said heard of Rails, not 37signals. Since you know that Ruby on Rails is for web developers, obviously you have heard of it.
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And I have no interest in Java and Sun, so I think they should not be covered on Slashdot either.
If we followed your logic, there would be nothing on slashdot. If you don't care, don't read.
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That information should be included in the article. I'm a developer (not Ruby/RoR obviously) and I had never heard of Jason Fried or 37signals
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Web developer? Any decent website developer should have heard of them. A non-web developer might not have had any reason to heard of, though.
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:4, Insightful)
> Any decent website developer should have heard of them
I've been a web developer for 10 years and I've never heard of them. Why should I have done if I've not used Ruby on Rails? What else have they done for example, in the ASP.NET world? Probably nothing.
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What is "ASP.NET"?
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Why the hell would I waste time exploring Ruby and Python when I work for a company who's business *IS* ASP.NET? .NET is hard enough to keep on top of on it's own, without trying to keep on top of evolutions on all the other platforms. It would be a total waste of my time. It would be as useful to me as exploring what's new in the world of agricultural harvesting machinery.
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Because you might think of new, better ways of doing old things. Just being educated by other viewpoints can improve your approach to problems and give you a more comprehensive outlook on your craft. If your entire universe is your job right now, then that's all you'll be able to do.
I used ASP.NET full time for a few years, and then did a couple of projects in Ruby on Rails, then Django. When I came back to ASP.NET there were a couple of things I did differently, and quite successfully, that were more si
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Because most of what they talk about hasn't anything to do with a specific platform or language.
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What else have they done for example, in the ASP.NET world? Probably nothing.
Of course not, why would they? They bloody invented Ruby on Rails.
If you've never had a meeting with them (Score:2)
Physical space and mandatory meeting. The bane of all geeks but just how necessary are they and in what situations?
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If I were a moderately evil boss, I'd expect people to be able to be in say 5 meetings at once via "instant messaging" conferences, and then get them to put the chat logs on an intranet site so I can see what they've been up to.
You could in fact chair one conference while being pa
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Funny)
These are the guys who say: "Get Real"
meaning: Release your software with less features than your customers want. Users who ask for features are assholes. We know what you need. You don't. //Why we stopped using basecamp
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Insightful)
You have just helped demonstrate their point.
If you don't like their product then you are free to use something else, a huge number of people are very happy with their products. If they tried to provide everything that you, and everyone, else wants (which will of course be different things), then the end result would be a mess. There are *always* people who don't like a product. 37s are just honest about this and don't try to make out that their products will be right for everyone.
Out of curiosity, what did you move to? Basecamp is too expensive for me, so I'm on the lookout for something that that does that kind of job.
Paul
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Stick a wiki up on a webserver. That's pretty much 90% of Basecamp anyway. Hell, that's pretty much 90% of all 37signals apps.
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Basecamp is closer to being a forum than a wiki.
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If you really think that, then I think you have missed what makes them so successful. They pay a lot of attention to the interface and usability of their products..
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Yeah, that's the 10%
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Excellent point and response!
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It's that kind of attitude which is why they are doing so much better than the average small web company. You really think that 10% is the easy part or that it doesn't make much of a difference to the user?
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Not really. To truly emulate the 37 signals apps, you'd need to install mod_throttle or some other way of inducing latency to make each page of the wiki take 10-15 seconds to load.
I can't say if it's improved since we stopped using it, but my main memory of the experience of using Basecamp was how slow it was. Like 37 signals, my company sells a SaaS web application, though we have a
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Sorry about that redundant - I forfeit my points by answering, I meant to add insightful but not enough coffee yet so my finger slipped.
Yes - it is insightful!
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You're (possibly deliberately) misinterpreting they're approach to feature requests.
In general, they're very receptive to feature requests, but they don't implement things for one specific customer. If they get the same request repeatedly, from different customers though, they'll probably do it.
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Maybe they know better what users can use in a right way. Hey! It's simply possible. They do it for years, users don't
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Yeah, they should just add every feature that users ask for, like Microsoft Office, because that's a really lean, intuitive application to use.
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We use Basecamp at our small consultancy, and it is just great. We get daily turnaround times for any bugs/issues with the product, and having client exposure and notification on our todo lists and other project planning saves us a mountain of "status check" emails from our more neurotic clients.
These guys have nailed the "do one thing, and do it well" philosophy of designing a product, and we have benefited greatly from decreased interruptions and happier, more informed clients.
Meetings Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure that Fried's philosophy will continue to hold up if 37signals grows much more, but I like his point-of-view about meetings and work flow.
I have found meetings to be an extraordinary waste of time in most cases, and often the result of lack of leadership and/or organizational ability on the part of those in charge. I was recently on the board of a very small non-for-profit charity that had weekly two-hour meetings. The "leader" of the organization claimed that he needed the two hours every week to "vision-cast," but--being a typical political flack--what he really wanted to do was hear himself talk and also to run every little matter past the board so that he could cover his ass instead of just making the decisions he was paid to make.
I quit after about ten months of that. The organization folded soon thereafter when donors stopped giving due to a ridiculous administrative overhead.
Re:Meetings Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Not all meetings.
I work for a company that has very few meetings -- basically, we do a Scrum-style meeting every day, and that's it. The rest is just impromptu discussions -- we're all close enough that if there's an urgent question, or something which can't be communicated well via Trac or email, we walk over and talk about it.
Now, the Scrum alone might add up to an hour a week, but I think it's worth it -- makes it a lot easier to figure out who's stuck, and who can help, that kind of thing. And if it sucked, hey, it's over in 10 minutes.
It sounds like what you had wasn't a meeting, it was a lecture. Lectures do suck.
Probably not lecture (Score:5, Insightful)
While I'll aggree with your main point, actually, it doesn't sound to me like he was having a lecture kind of meeting. A lecture at least involves someone, essentially, telling you, "I know how it's done, I decided it's done this way, I'll tell you in detail how." YMMV, but that's the basic idea. The meetings he's talking about, if I understood him right, are more the kind where someone doesn't want to be personally responsible for taking any decision. Quite the opposite. If he can't back out in dumbly applying some semi-irrelevant regulation or rule, he'll back out into, basically, "we all talked about it until everyone was too bored to give a shit any more, therefore we _all_ took that decision, therefore _I_ am not to blame." That is, if a decision is taken at all. Some end without anything being achieved whatsoever.
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While I'll aggree with your main point, actually, it doesn't sound to me like he was having a lecture kind of meeting. A lecture at least involves someone, essentially, telling you, "I know how it's done, I decided it's done this way, I'll tell you in detail how." YMMV, but that's the basic idea. The meetings he's talking about, if I understood him right, are more the kind where someone doesn't want to be personally responsible for taking any decision. Quite the opposite. If he can't back out in dumbly applying some semi-irrelevant regulation or rule, he'll back out into, basically, "we all talked about it until everyone was too bored to give a shit any more, therefore we _all_ took that decision, therefore _I_ am not to blame." That is, if a decision is taken at all. Some end without anything being achieved whatsoever.
Bingo! Damn, you said it better than I did.
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Without our daily scrum meeting our flexible schedules and priorities would never be dealt with in a useful time frame. It seems silly, but teammembers really notice the lost productivity and direction when we can't coordinate with EVERYONE at some point during the day without IM'ing each other saying "what are YOU working on?" when the sprint plan just doesnt cover priority and there is interdependence.
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I used to work in a company like that before "Scrum" was even a word. 10 minutes, even the sales dropped in, helped a lot. We had several large customer projects going, too few people and still managed it. The difference - not scheduled Scrum meetings but it came a habit - couldn't be scheduled, we were just too busy to have meetings but somehow happened every day!
Now - every and each project started with "brain storming", two days to two weeks depending on size of the project, always far away from office,
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Also, all agile, no titles, no managers, no leaders, etc - everyone was a resource!
Not quite the case here -- there are titles. Not really "seniority", but titles based on skills people have, and who to go to when you have a problem, or a question. I think it helps.
But "everyone a resource" is absolutely true. A few days ago, I set up a dev environment for the CEO -- I suppose he has a bit more time, or it's just that more urgent to get it done, but he's actually doing some coding now.
And this isn't him trying to show that he's "part of the team", or micromanaging -- there's nothing fake
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I have found meetings to be an extraordinary waste of time in most cases, and often the result of lack of leadership and/or organizational ability on the part of those in charge.
Such meetings are a waste of time and indicative of poor management. However, meetings can also be productive and useful tool - as long as they have a defined purpose, and someone who ensures that purpose gets met.
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I have been to many many meetings, but never any like you describe.
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In my college time, I was treasurer of a study association. The meetings were quite long and I requested to let me chair one of the meetings.
I ran it like a nazi. I stuck to the agenda, requested to discuss things outside the meeting, gave everybody a fair but limited talk time. Closed the meeting on time, cleanly lobbed off at the hour.
People were very enthousiastic, "if only all meetings could be like that".
However it was never requested to be chaired that way again. Maybe I was too blunt or something. Bu
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Re:Meetings Suck (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you're right that with the right kind of leadership and organization, a company can keep formal internal meetings to a minimum and everyone will be happier because of it.
If that works well all the time for 37Signals, then good for them. But it's important to realize that it works for them to a large degree because of the nature of their work. The "product" that they're producing is fairly simple in the sense that it can be done with a small in-house team. It's feasible for one individual to completely wrap their head around every aspect of a project if needed. That's not possible in every industry.
There are many lines of work where you just need way more people. There are consultants, and engineers, and manufacturers, and code officials, etc.
I know these guys are working hard, but I think they should step back and make sure they appreciate the relative freedom that exists in much of the software industry. It's far less accountable than most jobs and far less regulated. I have many days where I wish I didn't have to constantly deal with safety codes and governmental reviews.
And why should we care? (Score:1, Insightful)
And wtf is Basecamp and Campfire?
You could actually post some useful info in the summary, like what does the company do and what do they sell...
So basically.... (Score:1, Insightful)
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They do have a message [37signals.com] about software development that you can read without purchasing any of their product. I have endorsed their book, Getting Real, and you can read my endorsement here [transitionchoices.com] without purchasing any of my product.
Seriously, where is the line between information and advertising? IMHO, if the link takes you to a page where there is no possible way to part with your cash without going someplace else, then it is information. Have you been so betrayed by capitalism that you can't tolerate any exch
Re:So basically.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This thread will be nothing but one big slashvertisement for some company that nobody would otherwise know or care about.
You mean, apart from the several hundred thousand readers of their blogs on management and software development.
Or indeed many people who use Ruby on Rails? They are the guys behind that. Whether you use/like it, you have probably heard of it.
Just because you don't know who they are, doesn't mean that others don't, and it doesn't stop what they have to say being interesting.
Perhaps we should have no more articles that mention any companies, just in case you don't know who they are?
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Considering how much effort 37signals put into often neglected areas in the web development industry, such as interface and usability, it's no surprise that many of the Slashdot crowd haven't heard of them before.
Who was fried? (Score:4, Funny)
Okay.... That title is just wrong, it immediately made me wonder what sort of talkshow this 'Focus' was where Jason was fried.
I guess that goes a long way towards Fried's philosophy as well :)
Jason Voorhees was fried? (Score:4, Funny)
I thought it was another Friday 13th sequel. They've done everything else to Jason without any permanent effect.
And really, "37signals" "Basecamp", "Campfire"? They could have been rap groups for all I knew.
But... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But... (Score:5, Interesting)
Dude, like seriously man - if getting high is not the answer, then you're asking the wrong question...
It's true! (Score:4, Funny)
Self-fulfilling assertions strike again (Score:1)
Thanks - I was hoping someone would start this thread. Now I can ponder causality and a cat that belonged to Schrodinger.
but his "campfire" sessions are just meetings (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems that he says one thing and then instantly contradicts himself. Yes, too many meetings are bad - as are interruptions (at least for the interruptee, presumably the interrupter achieves their goals). However, having someone continually IM'ing you (or whatever - all these things are basically as bad as each other) is just as much a distraction and source of interruptions.
Oh yes, and making dumb statements like
It's really hard to change that organization if you don't have the power to change it
doesn't make him sound like he knows what he's talking about - either
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IMs can be ignored, or postponed. Physical meetings cannot, unless you're the boss.
Having not actually seen a 37signals app in action, I have no idea what a campfire session ends up being.
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As someone who has spent a lot of time in 'meetings' on IRC, I can tell you without a doubt that collaboration in a chatroom is much less disruptive to workflow than a real life meeting, and certainly not nearly as distracting,
Also, his 'dumb statement' taken out of context like that does certainly sound pretty dumb, but it's a transcript of a live interview and sometimes people say things without having thought their exact wording out, (Which he states earlier in the interview, is why he prefers text mediu
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Are you kidding? It sounds like he has a good grasp of basic logic. Based on that statement alone, I'd feel confident consulting him for questions like "If it's raining and I'm outside without cover, will I get wet?" and "If my front door is locked and I don't have the key and nobody's home, can I get in?"
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"doesn't make him sound like he knows what he's talking about - either"
The other clues were the "I don't know" comments interspersed throughout the transcript.
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This allows us to indicate general status, and leave 'deferred feedback' communications with other house members, because they have a channel history. If one of my housemates is out, then he'll still see me suggsting going to our favourite noodle bar tomorrow, or that there's a bill pending for electricity, and I can't afford it this month.
We basically have a day long 'meeting'
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IMs don't have to be as distracting as meetings since you can choose when to give them your attention. Perhaps they are interrupting to you, or in your particular company, but that doesn't make it the case for everyone.
37signals only uses Apple (Score:3, Funny)
Which really guts down on interruptions from employees running games and applications.
Keeps em focused.
Most Confusing Headline Ever (Score:1)
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Wrong. The number one way to stay interested is for the work to be interesting.
When slashdot becomes more interesting than the work, there's something seriously wrong with the interestingness of the work.
The article is too long! (Score:2)
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Despite the inflamatory tone of the parent article, Ruby is pretty immature and rough around the edges in many ways, so I feel your pain. However, since Rails will run under JRuby, you can always use that to avoid buffer overflows.
Considering it's all stolen tech... (Score:1, Interesting)
Both systems are web-based, multi-user, project management software.
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Pure theft. I know, I worked for the start-up that got put out of business.
Perhaps that might have held more weight if it hadn't been posted anonymously.
Besides, it hardly seems like a real idea to steal, unless you also think that Amazon's one-click patent should be upheld. Did he steal any code? Why didn't the original business succeed?
I need to get my eyes checked (Score:4, Funny)
I thought Jason was FIRED.
Basic Philosophy.... (Score:3)
The basic philosophy here is:
1. Cut the bullshit.
2. Do the work, and focus on it.
3. Make your product reflect your vision.
4. Sell to users who want simple "just works" apps.
5. Minimize overhead relentlessly, eliminate buracracy. (See #1)
6. Avoid expensive outside PR and other overhead (See #1 and #5)
7. Keep the vulture capitalists at bay. (See #1, #3, #5, and #6)
8. Start small and assemble team sharing common basic vision. (See #1, #3, #5, #7)
9. Profit.
It all makes sense, at least at a small scale. Overhead, indecision, and excessive levels of non-productive activity hurt productivity. Without productivity, you end up without a product, or end up with a poor one. With too much overhead, you need higher revenues just to break even.
Some organization and rules are necessary, but keep them minimal and focused on the end result. Push decisions as close to the actual work as possible to avoid paralysis, but keep a feedback loop in place to correct bad decisions.
Really, it all boils down to two words: "Work Efficiently".
I'm fried (Score:1)
Wow, focussing and avoiding interruptions was too much for this Jason person.
Or was he given the chair on a television show called Focus?
Tom DeMarco (Score:2)
It is remarkable how much he sounds like Tom DeMarco. If you like what Jason's saying, run out and buy a couple of books by Tom DeMarco.
Peopleware, Managing Programming People, etc.
What a tool. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sigh. The guy is about 30 years old. His company has 10 people after having existed through one of the biggest economic booms of all time, and they make software and sell it.
I ask you: how could you NOT run a company like that in the way he is describing? Nobody would attempt to run a whelk stall like IBM, so how is this news?
Be that as it may, he says they are about to become 12 people. Let's hope they're all as good at doing their jobs as they think they are, because pretty soon they will know the answer. Personally, I would not want to be Jason Fried, and I certainly wouldn't want his name.
10 people? (Score:5, Funny)
37signals is a 10 man shop. Why is this guy considered an organizational guru given that he runs such a tiny organization? Your average World of Warcraft raid beats the organizational challenges he is facing.
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Mission Statement: "Let's re-invent the wheel!" (Score:1)
Does nobody in IT have any sort of long term memory?
Why is it, like, 3 people in total have called them out for producing junk? Campfire is irc in a web page!
For the past ten years I have seen group after group re-invent the wheel in the language du jour. Remember jThis and jThat followed by pyThis and pyThat? Well now we have This and That implemented in Ruby. Genius!
Did anyone else misread the headline? (Score:1)