HP's Fury At Vista Capable Downgrade 499
More documents are coming out in court proceedings over the Vista Capable debacle. Internetnews.com has good coverage of HP's fury over Microsoft lowering the requirements for a Vista Capable sticker, at Intel's request. "Intel officials may have been pleased that Microsoft lowered standards for obtaining the company's Windows Vista Capable logo program sticker, but the same can't be said about HP's execs. 'I can't be more clear than to say you not only let us down by reneging on your commitment to stand behind the [device driver model] requirement, you have demonstrated a complete lack of commitment to HP as a strategic partner and cost us a lot of money in the process,' said one e-mail from Richard Walker, the senior vice president of HP's consumer business unit, to [Microsoft executives]." PCPro.co.uk follows the trail of accusatory emails inside Microsoft from there: "HP's email prompted then Microsoft co-President, Jim Allchin, to send a furious email of his own to company CEO Steve Ballmer. Allchin's email suggests the decision to lower the requirements was made in his absence by Ballmer, following 'a call between you and Paul [Otellini, Intel CEO].' 'I am beyond being upset here,' Allchin wrote to Ballmer. 'What a mess. Now we have an upset partner, Microsoft destroyed credibility [sic], as well as my own credibility shot.' Ballmer, in turn, blamed another Microsoft executive, Will Poole, in a rather erratically typed reply to Allchin."
SUSE laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
Many users don't feel comfortable doing an OS install themselves. HP in the past used to sell laptops with SUSE preinstalled. If you're pissed at Microsoft, a letter won't do anything. You're still preinstalling Vista on every computer.
Offer a new line of openSUSE laptops with all the hardware configured and working out of the box (wireless, webcam, etc) and that will send a message to Microsoft.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I am more interested in changing attitudes of consumers than how a company easily manipulates them.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're pissed at Microsoft, a letter won't do anything. You're still preinstalling Vista on every computer.
I totally agree. HP sells more Windows boxes than any other single vendor, and MS still fucked them they like they do all of their business partners. HP was neutered by Carly, they need to grow a pair back start getting self-sufficient again. They've clearly been fooled (at least) once now, will they let themselves be fooled twice?
What really fucking sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
When the vendors are starting to play the "Vista yay" games while everyone else is rolling back Vista to XP at first opportunity.
Example: NVidia fucked over the consumer by making their newest stereo3D drivers not just Vista-only, but also by removing LCD shutter support (meaning you're limited to color-distorting anaglyph red/blue glasses, or really crapass zalman monitors).
check it out [nvidia.com].
Next time I upgrade, unless they fix this, NVidia will not even be considered.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Ironically, that's not what I was saying at all, you insufferable little troll.
I don't consider Vista a "disaster" due to this. If you'll notice, Vista is getting the support instead of Windows XP all of a sudden.
THAT is what I consider to be a disaster.
Now, if you want to know why you shouldn't use Vista, I'm sure a million Slashdot readers will be happy to help you understand.
Re:What really fucking sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
It's next in line. What did you expect?
Microsoft can and will make you move forward. Forward being a relative term when we're talking Microsoft.
And I'm perfectly aware of the reasons not to use Vista. Which is why I removed it from my computer.
Re:What really fucking sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
A non-OpenSource operating system of any origin or maker is prone to being end-of-life'd leaving people very much obsoleted out of the use of otherwise very good hardware. To some degree this is also true of OpenSource software, but not nearly to the same degree.
In terms of sheep numbers, Linux supports more hardware than any one Windows version. But starting with Windows and every closed-source-only vendor out there, it is at their individual discretion to decide whether or not they want to continue to support any given OS at any time of their choosing ultimately making their old hardware unusable at a moment's notice. If every hardware vendor who does not publish their specs or have open source drivers available decided to pull driver support for WindowsXP, you could whine and complain all day long but there is little you can do about it while you are under their control and influence due to the closed source nature of their drivers and software. "But they would never do that!" you say? Yeah they would at the very moment they believe it would be to their advantage to do so. They don't exist for your pleasure, they exist for your cash. It really is as simple as that.
Open Source is more about being free from a single vendor than anything else as far as I am concerned. I don't compile tarballs... not any more. I pretty much get all binaries and use those as they are these days. But in the event that one Linux distro displeases me too much, there is always another out there.
Microsoft on the brink (Score:5, Interesting)
Year after year, I maintain the feeling that Windows is teetering on the brink. The immense army of Microsoft's R&D organisation is employed to add "differentiators", i.e. more features, rather than less, so you'll always have planned obsolesence. This is inconsistent with getting the price per unit down to where it's competitive in the TCO equation they're selling to. At the Enterprise back office, it's still perceived by most of our customers that a Windows server solution is easier to plug together in a scalable way with the fewest possible high-end engineers. Because of this perception (aided by a very good single-source support portal in MSDN with a lot of expensive polish) many of our Enterprise customers see a Windows desktop -- at whatever level of evolution -- is the client of least resistance. This amounts to a lot of technology knitted together with a glue consisting of 1 part content, 1 part support, and 1 part marketing polish.
As far as overall quality and ease, well, you and I know different.
To make Linux prevail across the Enterprise will require a differentiator, something that can compensate for the immense marketing engine that is MSFT. This will have to be not just a convincing alternative, but a convincing argument that is driven home.
A couple of holdouts keep MSFT on the cliff instead of off it. A diminishing yet prevalent feeling of product consistency across the board (reinforced by their consistent portal graphics, I kid you not), the immense momentum of the installed product base and the fact that the users' home devices can run World of Warcraft on that platform and no other.
The cost equation is at present very much in favour of a Linux desktop + **Nix back end. Unless we somehow counter that marketing engine, however, we'll never be able to give the beast that last push over the cliff. And we'll need to do it in some other way than they do -- remember, it took a year-after-year consistency for Volkswagen to break the tailfin aristocracy of the 1950's car makers. Of course by that time planned obsolescence had reached absurd levels and people were ready for the change.
Maybe that's our marketing message -- "Do you really need the tailfins? Or would a simple, economical desktop do the job?"
If any marketing types out there have the links, it would be great to see some of the old VW beetle adverts. Inspirational simplicity.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well... World of Warcraft isn't the greatest example here.
It runs JUST FINE on Linux!
I'm sure it's partially because I had a lot of services running in Windows which I've since moved off onto a separate Linux box. But WoW seems snappier for me in Linux. But then, I was running via OpenGL on Windows as well. Your mileage may vary.
Linux vs. Windows is still a difficult question of tradeoffs for many. I've finally switched from multi-booting primarily in Windows to staying on Linux most of the time. Still
Re:Microsoft on the brink (Score:5, Funny)
Year after year, I maintain the feeling that Windows is teetering on the brink.
Reading a lot of Slashdot will do that to you :D
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"In terms of sheep numbers, Linux supports more hardware than any one Windows version."
This metric is new to me.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"In terms of sheep numbers, Linux supports more hardware than any one Windows version."
This metric is new to me.
It refers to the number of units you can count before falling asleep.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
RedHat beats that. Learn about what you are speaking before committing your assertion to print.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It is a frigging disaster. I want monsters, bullets, and landscapes jumping out of my flat monitor in Windows XP. It is not longer possible. That sucks.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Funny)
They've clearly been fooled (at least) once now, will they let themselves be fooled twice?
There's an old saying in Redmond - I know it's in Palo Alto, probably in Redmond - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - I can't get fooled again.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I like this version:
Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice shame on me
Only the folks in Palo Alto will fall for number three.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That could just come right back to bite them on the ass, because it might just piss off Microsoft, and the thing is, Microsoft holds all the cards.
HP needs Microsoft because, Slashdot horde notwithstanding, HP's customers are generally not in the market for a Linux computer, they're in the market for a Windows computer. Offering a Linux option is all well and good, but most customers simply aren't interested.
Most Linux users are happy to install it themselves, and most people who want a pre-built computer c
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
That could just come right back to bite them on the ass, because it might just piss off Microsoft, and the thing is, Microsoft holds all the cards.
Only because companies like HP voluntarily hand their cards over to MS.
Somebody has to take the lead, and while they may suffer for it in the short term, the long term looks a whole lot brighter without being beholden to one company that holds are the cards.
Most Linux users are happy to install it themselves, and most people who want a pre-built computer complete with OS and software want one that works just like their old one,
You are definitely describing yesterday's market. Nowadays many, many users are happy with a fully functional web browser. Not a majority, yet, but a significant minority. Look at just how well the linux-based netbooks have been selling as just one example.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to be the one to bring reality into this little discussion, but for HP to dump Windows and start selling Linux (or any other OS) instead is really, really stupid.
I admit, I'd buy one. You'd probably buy one, too. But almost everyone else in the known universe wants Windows on their computer. Those that don't are buying Macs. This means that if HP wants to stay alive, they need to sell Vista.
I especially like this piece:
I'd like to see the company that could actually look that far ahead. Investors demand short term profits, and especially in the computer world, a couple of bad years might be enough to kill HP altogether.
It's the unfair result of Microsoft's lock-in, but for the foreseeable future it seems to be pretty much an all or nothing Windows vs. Linux (OK, Dell has Windows vs. [hidden on the back page behind a sign reading "beware of the penguin"], but you get the idea).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'd buy one. You'd probably buy one, too. But almost everyone else in the known universe wants Windows on their computer.
I have installed Linux for other people. I think an earlier comment was right - Linux's biggest problem is lack of consumer awareness, which comes down to lack of marketing.
Look at the reasons Mac owners say they prefer Macs. No malware is one of them. Linux is at least as good on that count. I actually think Linux GUI's are pretty good and better than Windows: but that is a matter of opinion. The examples here work for me (Mandriva 2008.1 KDE).
Of course having said that marketing is the problem, I do no
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're right, but the big name hardware makers all wanted that "symbiotic relationship" with Microsoft. EG. You supply the OS/software, and we'll supply the hardware. Together, we'll both PROFIT!
It may not be all "love and roses" these days, with Vista not living up to its promises and all. But can you really imagine HP, Dell, or any of that lot suddenly coming out with their OWN operating system, this late in the game, and doing a decent job of it? You know the ONE company who had a shot at it, right? That was IBM, with OS/2, but they blew it too - out of greed, and the attraction of the "simplicity" of just letting Microsoft handle it for them instead.
Say what you will about Apple, but they're the last standing hold-out from the era when all "personal computers" ran operating systems designed by and supported solely by the same companies that made the hardware. (Commodore, Atari, Tandy/TRS-80, etc. etc.)
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:4, Insightful)
I hate to be the one to bring reality into this little discussion, but for HP to dump Windows and start selling Linux (or any other OS) instead is really, really stupid.
Who said that? You are just making up a strawman argument.
People are saying that if HP had the cojones, they would push to sell good consumer-grade linux systems. But they are not saying to "dump Windows."
They're equivalent, since if HP started pushing quality consumer-grade Linux systems, MS can respond by simply no longer providing HP with OEM Windows to pre-install. After all, there are many other computer manufacturers that can fill the market space; there's only one MS to get Windows from.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That could just come right back to bite them on the ass, because it might just piss off Microsoft, and the thing is, Microsoft holds all the cards.
MS will not cut off their #2 OS customer.
HP's customers are generally not in the market for a Linux computer, they're in the market for a Windows computer.
Let's say MS were to cut HP off such that HP would have to buy OEM copies of Vista/XP at full price. HP is one of the few companies that could actually make a non-geek oriented Linux PC. They could offer it as a whole new line, and make a huge push, and sell both Linux PCs and Windows PCs.
In fact, you can be sure that HP is considering this very thing (among many other scenarios), and with distributions like Ubuntu becoming very user-friendly, and the Mac weaning peo
Re: (Score:2)
But being "upset" doesn't require any action beyond a temper tantrum, or a nasty email, or some other inconsequential pseudo action.
Only when people TIRE of the WINTEL Cabal enough to SEARCH for a replacement will the stranglehold they have be broken. Not before. Too many people aren't "there" yet.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
That won't just send a message to Microsoft, it would also send a message to the population in general. That message being: Microsoft is fucked, and we have your solution right here. No need to pay the MS tax, we have Linux pre-installed for just a few dollars more, you can sign up for our Linux class. It takes 4 hours for orientation, you get a free training CD, and 3 months support for $75.00
If they do any two or more of the things I've just hinted at, MS might have a really bad year. Redmond is blowing it. They have no back-out strategy from the strong-arm tactics they have been using on manufacturers and retailers. If those deals go sour Redmond will not be an easy place to get a job in IT.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
With Ubuntu, and with netbooks, Linux is gaining some recognition with the public. A big name like HP offers a Linux laptop that you can buy on Amazon.com and in BestBuy, and then suddenly the public will see Linux in a very different light.
HP is in the best position to push a Linux laptop since HP also offers very good Linux printer drivers. One product purchase can drive a complimentary sale.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
TTY practice (Score:5, Funny)
[...]MS's anticompetitive^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H incentive[...]
Are you aware that you can erase an entire word with ^W instead?
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
So get on the horn with Dell and Gateway, and talk about how much money they lost, and how if they all went the same route on this, they could reduce their dependence on a vendor that clearly has no regard for their welfare.
Surely you're aware that what you're suggesting is a violation of antitrust laws?
I know, it'd be weird for Microsoft to be on the winning side of an antitrust suit for once, but is that what you really want?
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:4, Interesting)
Any lawyers want to call BS?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"The average consumer doesn't want to take a Linux class or sit down and watch a training CD."
You need training on any system. My mom called and asks how to copy stuff to a CD. I guess having Windblows didn't save her from needing any training.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
Bingo. The main problem with proclaiming that Linux isn't ready for the desktop is that it misses the fact that Windows isn't ready for the desktop either. The technically literate can use both, and the technically illiterate can't use either.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
I nominate this post for the "Most Insightful Post Ever Made in an 'Is Linux Ready For the Desktop?' Topic" award.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
And when they shift from XP to Vista? What's the difference? Both Vista and Linux (assuming either GNOME or KDE) do things differently from XP. Why does Vista get a pass, while Linux doesn't?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe since one can change vista to look like XP? The classic interface.
I have deployed over 20 vista machines with the classic start menu and only one person asked why the log on screen was different. They did not ask for any other question. These people have already seen office 2007 on XP so that was the same. these are not major computer programmers or engineers. these are regular secretaries. They use the computer, as long as they have their email, web browser, and can open the documents they are happy.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, where to begin. I'll just stick with graphics since that is the heart of this debacle, anyway.
Vista Basic is a software context, just like XP, XWindows on UNIX + likes, or non-Quartz Compositor (formerly Quartz Extreme) accelerated MacOSX contexts. Gnome and KDE are traditionally software based, but there has been some effort to add hardware acceleration on both fronts and I haven't kept up on where exactly they are at (I have Ubuntu and SuSE and neither are hardware accelerated AFAIK).
Vista Aero uses Desktop Window Manager (DWM) hardware context (specifically a DirectX 9 context) and offloads much of rendering responsibility to hardware. This is actually the root of the hardware issue where MS eased up on requirements for Vista. From what I've read, the story is something like this: originally, Vista Capable machines had to have graphics acceleration, but not necessarily hardware transformation and lighting (T&L), so Intel continued to develop software T&L in their GMA 3000 series of chips released in 2006. However, Microsoft failed to disclose that Vista would also require a hardware accelerated timer and because T&L on these Intel chips was in software, the timer also needed to be in software. Intel believed they had met all the requirements and suddenly had millions of chips they wouldn't be able to sell because MS didn't disclose one piece of necessary info and was pissed at MS, MS couldn't believe anyone was still making software T&L in 2006, and everyone was pissed at everyone else.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
No kidding. I work with people who can efficiently use AutoCAD, which has one of the most complicated and poorly designed interfaces I've ever seen. But at the same time they can't even change their desktop background without help.
An understanding of how a tool actually works is not always important to being able to use that tool well enough to get their job done. To use the dreaded car analogy, understanding how a manual transmission is built and functions might help you use one more effectively and squeeze some extra performance out of your car, but even someone with absolutely no idea of the actual mechanics of a transmission can learn to use one pretty well.
Getting people like this to change their routine is sometimes difficult, and they'll resist it. But once you get them to accept that the change is going to happen (Either because their boss forced them, or their old option is no longer available, or the new choice is 30% cheaper, etc.) They can learn the new stuff.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Most importantly however is the fact that most computer users don't actually know how to use their PCs for anything beyond 2 or 3 basic tasks, and they find learning how to do new tasks too tedious to be bothered.
Sitting those people in front of Linux, I find they more quickly grasp how to do things than they do with Vista, and feel more comfortable doing things because most everything acts the way they expect it to when they experiment.
The best part about sitting a Windows user in front of my Linux desktop
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a Linux fan and yes I do agree for the most part but I would go with your granny test if you let me set some of the tasks.
Go to BestCircutMartDepot and.
1. Buy an all in one printer.
2. Buy a webcam.
3. Buy a Game.
4. Buy Tax Software.
The problem is a lack of over the counter software and the lack of a stable binary driver interface.
The whole document it and they will write it is a good idea but having the option to stick in on a CD in the box is very handy.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1 - I'm going to go on a limb and guess HP is still the number one printer seller. HP printers are easier to install in Linux than in Windows. My mom just bought a new all-in-one and hplips got everything installed right away. No driver downloads, no fuss. It just worked in under 60 seconds, including fax, scan and copy functionality.
2 - I personally have yet to come across any major webcam that doesn't work in Linux. I buy HP laptops, and every webcam in an HP laptop has worked for me in Linux. Regar
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
with linux the odds of complete success are lower, but the odds of complete disaster (computer no longer working) are much much lower also. Failure on linux, is take back the new device it didn't work. Failure on windows is, PC no longer reboots, so she sticks in the recovery CD, and everything is gone. (linux need recovery from this unlikely, but also data in a different partition with no default re-format.)
EG most have no idea if its 98/XP/XP SP1/2/Vista. Wrong choice could be very bad for the compute
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Really? I've checked my oil and changed flat tires, but I learned both of those things by reading the owners manual for my car, not from the driver's education classes that I was required to take to get my license.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell pays to license codecs and such and includes them in their Ubuntu install. I'm sure HP would do the same.
For a traditional openSUSE install you are literally a one-click installer away from having all the codecs and packages you need for every major "restricted" format.
And while a retailer dealing with an Asus netbook can't provide technical support, when it comes to a big name like HP, they can provide technical support for their products.
Re: (Score:2)
Offer a new line of openSUSE laptops with all the hardware configured and working out of the box (wireless, webcam, etc) and that will send a message to Microsoft.
MS's overwhelming dominance (if not monopoly) in the desktop market means that they can force companies to dance to their tune by- for example- threatening to charge those who do such things more for Windows. Which would of course damage HP's competitiveness and/or profitability since- like it or not- most people will still want Windows on their computer.
Whether such behaviour is legal or not is highly questionable. No doubt they'd weasel it such that HP simply weren't given a "discount" that all the othe
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Insightful)
HP is still responsible for technical support and drivers for every OS they want to support. If HP offered Linux, it would likely be one distro. They went with SUSE in the past, and I happen to dig on openSUSE so that is why I suggested it.
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Informative)
Re:SUSE laptops (Score:5, Interesting)
Dell already offers Ubuntu, and HP historically has supported SUSE.
SUSE in the past has had package manager issues, but seriously check out openSUSE 11, or the openSUSE 11.1 beta 5. The package manager is GREATLY improved. It searches and resolves packages considerably better, packages are smaller files (LZMA compression), and dependency issues are solved much better now.
The thing I really like about Novell/openSUSE is the development efforts to make improvements themselves and push them upstream. They also backport features. openSUSE packages are just good packages. I could find a decent KDE desktop in Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, etc. but alongside the Arch KDEMod team, openSUSE arguably puts out the single best KDE desktop I've seen.
Email from Steve (Score:5, Funny)
Jim,
I most certainly did not... *picks up chair*
It was *throws chair* Will Poole who made the decision. Blame him.
Sorry I have to run. My anger management class starts in 5 minutes.
Steve
DRA-MA (Score:5, Funny)
This sounds more like high school than execs and CEOs... Sounds like you guys lost credibility a long time ago.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's supposed to be a major plot point in High School Musical V(ista)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
haha! (Score:2)
This will haunt them.
I suspect they will get little sympathy from the
Credibility? (Score:3, Funny)
Balmer could have gone another route... (Score:3, Funny)
And thrown a chair at Allchin.
At least he's emailing now.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Somebody help me understand this . . . (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Somebody help me understand this . . . (Score:5, Informative)
Because HP had already made an investment in a more expensive (capable) product line based on the promises of MS. Now HP would have to compete against vendors offering less-powerful systems that could be also advertised as "Vista Capable", even though not actually capable according to the original definition.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
HP made one of the classic blunders and believed something that Microsoft had promised them. They then spent all sorts of money to engineer all their low end systems so they would be get the vista capable sticker. After HP had spent all the money, then Microsoft lowered the requirements so all of HP's competitors would also get the vista capable sticker with out having spent all of the money.
The moral of the story is never believe anything anyone who currently works for Microsoft says to you. It might be
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Suppose Dell offers a i915-based system for $500, but HP offers a i945-based system for $550. Both have a Vista-capable logo - which one is the unenlightened customer gonna buy?
Re: (Score:2)
I don't run Vista but I'm going on a limb and guessing the graphics card struggles with the Aero interface. Otherwise I don't know why the chipset would be a big factor.
i915 = No hardware scheduler = no WDDM (Score:5, Informative)
I reckon it is actually possible to have full WDDM on i915, but the performance would be absolutely horrible because the scheduling would have to be done in the driver - and we all know how zippy Intel drivers are
Heh (Score:2)
Sorry, Jim, that train left the station back in the 90's, if not earlier.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ring around the blame game... (Score:5, Interesting)
MS was in a lousy position there, with no way to please everybody; but their handling of the situation was surprisingly inelegant. Lots of confusion and behind-one-another's-back talking to partners. I wonder if they messed up, or if they figure that HP et al. will just have to suck it up. One also wonders, at this point, if it wouldn't have been better for MS to just pay Intel to dump the 915s(either literally, or into low-end "emerging markets" products).
Re:Ring around the blame game... (Score:5, Insightful)
It sure is looking to me like Microsoft was in panic mode, different managers and departments were all over the place. The whole thing obviously turned into a feeding frenzy. What this shows you is just how vile and inept the unholy alliances between Microsoft, Intel and the big-name PC manufacturers are. But you know what, these guys long ago sold their souls to Microsoft, basically letting the tail wag the dog, so it's hard to feel sorry for HP. If HP had some serious balls it would simply have said "If you don't step on this shitty Intel chipset, we're going to start pushing in a big way Ubuntu and OpenOffice, and maybe we're even going to throw some R&D dollars at it." HP is a large enough PC maker to make a threat like that quake Redmond's boots.
Instead, while they may have privately bitched, at the end of the day, John Q Consumer was still buying equipment with "Vista Ready" stickers on it, unaware that, whatever the reason, a fair chunk of those computers were anything but.
20/20 hindsight (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ring around the blame game... (Score:5, Insightful)
In a slightly more emotionally distanced view, you have to admit that MS's position kinda sucked. They had to make a call, and whichever way they made it, some of their partners stood to lose big. In the end, I think they fucked up and make the wrong(and unethical) call, for which they are being sued. Your level of sympathy for HP depends largely on how much you see them as a willfully blind, idiotic enabler of MS vs. how much you see them as a victim of MS. As for heroes, none available. Everybody here was just grubbing at the money trough. Some were more unethical about it than others; but that is about all you can say.
Popcorn anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
it was somewhat gratifying to learn (Score:3, Funny)
That Ballmer is close to illiterate. Unsurprising, though.
Microsoft has no strategic partners (Score:5, Insightful)
Would have stuck with XP. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Would have stuck with XP. (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately, most people didn't know Vista (especially vista basic) stunk at the original launch. I know quite a few people who looked at laptops and specifically went for vista ones because they were being advertised heavily and were the 'new shiny thing'. Putting XP on those underpowered laptops would have been the right thing for everyone involved, but vendors who did lost out to those sellers who had lower scruples.
Note to ballmer: (Score:5, Insightful)
The person at the top is ultimately responsible.
Ballmer is the Ringo star of the software industry.
MS Execs taking a beating (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212100310 [informationweek.com]
In another e-mail, Microsoft Windows product manager Mike Nash said even he was fooled by the campaign: "I personally got burned by the Intel 915 chipset issue on a laptop that I personally" bought "with my own $$$." Nash said he purchased the Sony laptop "because it had the Vista logo and was pretty disappointed."
"I now have a $2,100 e-mail machine," Nash complained.
Nothing new here. Another day. Another episode demonstrating that there are no ethics or leadership at the top of this company. Just a bunch of ignorant whores.
I don't care about MS passing the buck internally (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't care about Microsoft passing the buck internally, and I doubt HP does either. What's important is that it's HP's buck that MS is passing.
Intel and Microsoft both got more cash by selling out companies trying to sell computers that were actually Vista-ready in favor of more and cheaper units from other vendors whose boxes weren't.
Steves... (Score:4, Funny)
I've noticed there are an awful lot of Steves in the industry. Ballmer, Wozniak and Jobs, plus a handful of others that I probably don't know about. I think Jobs and Wozniak (and others) should hold a vote to make Ballmer change his first name to something else. I'm sure he embarrasses them.
Which is precisely why... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They could have shipped XP instead.
Ooh, MS won't sell them? Fine, sell them with Linux or FreeDos (that's what Lenovo does, or did, btw)
Re:Ooh for pete's sake (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you should have stuck for what you believe and refused to sell underpowered vista machines.
You don't seem to understand what HP "believes in" -- it is making a profit.
When all the other vendors are able to sell underpowered and consequently underpriced vista machines with the same labeling as yours, then hardly anyone is going to buy your comparatively overpriced system. The majority of consumers are not capable of distinguishing between the intel 915 and 935 motherboard chipsets at the retail level. But they are able to recognize a $50 price difference.
Re:Ooh for pete's sake (Score:4, Informative)
Then you should have stuck for what you believe and refused to sell underpowered vista machines.
I believe that's what they did. Problem being, MS lowered the bar at the last moment after HP was already selling their machines, and everyone else undercut them with less-than-adequate machines. And being as Joe 40oz doesn't know the difference between the systems, he's likely to go with the latter, thus HP loses a ton of money.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It wasn't that, but (paraphrasing TFA) MS had promised that a higher graphics capability was required for Vista and HP structured their offering around this. Then MS backpedaled for Intel and said the lower-powered 915 chipset (w/integrated graphic) would quality as "Vista Capable" allowing other vendors to sell cheaper systems advertised as such (that could really only run Vista Basic) which would compete aga
Re:Marketing rules technology (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you under the impression that MS is the only place where this happens? Personal experience tells me that absurd requests for features from high-profile customers, and sales guys who over promise is a problem most anywhere else.
I just don't think most places have the luxury of having a well planned, development driven process.
As much as I'm usually pretty down on MS, I'm just not convinced they're any different in this case.
Cheers
Re:What does this all mean? (Score:4, Informative)
It's not sales that were hurt, it was the bottom line. HP clearly is indicating that they were following an earlier, more rigorous set of hardware requirements as they pushed out their new lines, and then suddenly Microsoft changes the rules and a low-end video chipset is given the thumb's up, meaning HP's competitors can push out cheaper computers with that precious "Vista Ready" sticker on them, undercutting HP (not that HP didn't push out some pretty crappy notebooks that perform underwhelmingly under Vista).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hot dog, OH DADDY! (Score:4, Funny)
How did you fail THIS badly?
I'm guessing lots of practice
Re:Eating Their Own (Score:4, Insightful)
Uhhh... I believe there was a contractual agreement. I don't know how much you know about contract law, but even verbal agreements are contracts; they are simply more difficult to nail down if there is a problem than written contracts. That's why verbal agreements are usually just a few words and a handshake, something along the lines of "HP promises to use Vista, and Microsoft promises to not lower the requirements for the Vista Capable logo." shake hands, and done. It's completely binding, but chances are it was done in written form anyway.
Hence the reason they are in friggin court dude.
Re:Eating Their Own (Score:4, Informative)
HP is angry that they listened to MS on hardware specs initially, and then MS changed it's mind in backroom deals with Intel, which ultimately convinced people to buy computers that weren't actually ready for Vista. HP got bit hard because they invested in a higher level of hardware than Intel was providing, and all the other manufacturers could undercut it by going with the cheaper stuff leaving HP to scramble.
Just because it wasn't necessarily illegal to screw over HP like that doesn't mean HP has any less right to be angry at backroom deals.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It has [sic] after it because the fragment is unclear. Who's credibility did Microsoft destroy; it's own, it's partner's, or someone else's? The fragment should have an object such as "Now we have an upset partner, Microsoft destroyed their credibility." or "Now we have an upset partner, Microsoft has destroyed it's credibility, as well as my own credibility is shot."
Basically, that sentence has a number of grammar issues.
Re:Remember folks;... (Score:4, Interesting)
Windows 7 is built on top of the Server 2003 codebase, same as Vista, so don't expect a miracle.
Vista Basic can run on fairly low specced machines if you don't have too many services running - I bet it would run on my 8 year old desktop PC (which does have a gig of RAM and a $25 DX9 capable card, so it probably could even run Aero). The requirements skyrocket is if you want to run everything and want Aero.
Windows 7 will likely have a smaller base memory footprint unless you run older applications on it because they plan to move to the virtual machine paradigm (like how OSX machines could run OS9) to support legacy applications. Legacy libraries won't be hogging memory unless they're needed and there should be less compatibility issues because developers will be forced to work with the same API functions rather than falling back on legacy ones when writing new code.
The performance of XP vs Vista is not really that huge of difference - maybe 2%-5% for most things (I get about an 80% hit for OpenGL in a Window, however, which is odd because context switches should only give about a 20% hit at most, but I haven't checked recently and it's possible new drivers and/or SP1 fixed this). Part of that is likely more services running or tuning that needs to be done on the OS. I don't think it's that big of deal. My main problem with Vista is other issues (it nags too much, I've had to reinstall Vista 5x now due to it not liking updates, some things like network shares are painful to configure, some things that shouldn't have been changed or renamed were, etc - I have not had driver issues, but some people have).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
so in a group of free thinkers someone that doesnt think like the rest is not a free thinker? That is rather limited thinking.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it's fair to criticise people for believing something entirely because other people happen to believe it, but isn't this also exactly how organised religion works? Why do you believe in God i
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Since we're waaaaay off topic anyways... You probably mean evolution through natural selection. Hopefully you'll reproduce in sufficient quantity to prove this theory is right.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No, it is a scientific theory.