The Commodore 64 vs. the iPhone 3G S 238
Harry writes "The unfortunate news about Apple rejecting a Commodore 64 emulator from the iPhone App Store inspired me to compare the C64 to the new iPhone 3G S, in more detail than any rational person is likely to compare them, ever again. If nothing else, it's a snapshot of just how far technology has come since the C64's release in August of 1982."
Oh well... (Score:5, Funny)
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One better? Surely that's at least 63 better.
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Then it's settled. I'm getting a Commodore instead.
ill go you one better ill get a Commodore 64.
If you want to go one better ill, then you'd better get not only the Commodore 64 but also the ill peripheral.
The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
It's quite clear what Apple approved was selling individual C64 games or apps individually that used an emulator underneath. Not a full fledged emulator that would let you program your own games, or play whatever C64 software you have.
Apple probably read their website and realized their goal was quite different then what they were told earlier.
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
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I do wonder about Apple's policy there. Ostensibly, it's to stop you running an unapproved app by running it in an emulator, but they're perfectly happy to approve apps which pull down arbitrary and equally unapproved content from the web.
Is it really any different than the Hot Coffee fiasco? For every person of age X who downloaded the mod, a dozen of the same age were probably downloading hardcore zebu porn MPGs but that isn't directly tied to a game, so is business as usual.
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Funny)
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Well... you can check this [wikipedia.org] and then answer that yourself...
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It could be worse. It could be Xenu [wikipedia.org] porn.
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Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Informative)
It's quite clear that an emulator is OK as long as it can only run the app sold with it, and not arbitrary code.
It's okay to use this device that you've bought for running Apple-approved software, but not for running arbitrary code. That's not FUD, it's Apple's policy. If you're happy with a device that has this kind of restriction, then that's great, enjoy yourself.
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Flash and Java (Score:2)
isn't the C64 emulator a sandbox?
ActionScript and Java run in a sandbox, but they're rejected too.
Re:Flash and Java (Score:4, Insightful)
isn't the C64 emulator a sandbox?
ActionScript and Java run in a sandbox, but they're rejected too.
Javascript or Brainfuck also run arbitrary code in a sandbox, but they're not rejected.
Welcome to the topsy-turvy world of the Apple app store, where any app could be removed at any time, because they could all be interpretted as infringing some part of the SDK rules.
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Javascript or Brainfuck also run arbitrary code in a sandbox, but they're not rejected.
I can't speak for Brainfuck, but the developer agreement mentions JavaScript inside Safari as the only approved way to execute arbitrary code.
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But what code does the policy prohibit? Obviously, arbitrary native code is right out, but isn't the C64 emulator a sandbox?
Its not about sandbox or any performance issues or any other excuse they throw out. Its simple - any code that did not get bit for bit approved by Big Brother Steve is out. So any sort of interpreter or emulator is out. Flash is out. Palm emulator (there was one written a year or so back, would be nice to have it) is out. Anything that may run anything that is not completely controlled by Apple is out.
What is interesting is that web based apps are still allowed, but I would not be surprised that slowly they
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I would agree with you if it wasn't for the SID player that does the same thing but for C64 music.
Apple are shooting themselves in the foot with their rules. I know what they're trying to do, prevent unlocking of the phone.
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I would agree with you if it wasn't for the SID player that does the same thing but for C64 music.
I bet most people don't realize that a SID player playing C64 music is actually executing the extracted music routines. People think of music files as being either sheet music with only the most rudimentary control structure (MIDI, MOD) or a recording (MP3, WMA, etc.). SID files are a fairly rare beast in that they're straight code. While enthustiasts grok it, everyone else (including the sort of people who approve or reject apps for the iPhone) will just wonder why there's no rewind button and go no futher
Re:The developers are spreading FUD (Score:5, Informative)
Except it's not clear. There's a Brainfuck interpreter [apple.com], as well as a Z-machine interpreter [apple.com]. Both execute arbitrary code which can be downloaded from a remote source, or entered right on the device itself.
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It's quite clear what Apple approved was selling individual C64 games or apps individually that used an emulator underneath. Not a full fledged emulator that would let you program your own games, or play whatever C64 software you have.
Which is why smart developers create "Easter Eggs" [wired.com] in their iPhone apps.
Nice Shapshot! (Score:5, Informative)
Good overview of the two technologies.
One point of correction the iPhone has successful run Apache so it can be used as a web server (for what it's worth). Here's a related article -
http://www.modmyi.com/forums/native-iphone-ipod-touch-app-launches/2665-apache-iphone-how-cool.html [modmyi.com]
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According to the comments on TFA:
So yes
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So has the Commodore 64:
http://www.c64web.com/ [c64web.com]
Posting that on Slashdot is just cruel...
It would be like someone posting the ZX81 web server [endoftheinternet.org]...
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Are we bad people?
Re:Nice Shapshot! (Score:4, Interesting)
3D acceleration is just the new 2D acceleration (Score:5, Informative)
True, but at the time, 2D hardware features were as much a bullet-point as 3D acceleration today, and the C64 had some quite impressive 2D tricks up its sleeve.
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True, but at the time, 2D hardware features were as much a bullet-point as 3D acceleration today, and the C64 had some quite impressive 2D tricks up its sleeve.
Indeed - the C64 had some impressive graphics and truly amazing sound capabilities for it's time. One has to keep in mind that the C=64 appears just a little after dinosaurs first roamed the earth [lcurtisboyle.com].
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Well, wasn't there a version of Space Harrier for the C-64? Plus some flight simulators I'm sure...
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The only thing missing in there, is a virtual CPU, emulated in Emacs.
Try CTRL+[+P+X+1.
-dZ.
C64 didn't use a 6502 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:C64 didn't use a 6502 (Score:4, Informative)
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Vic 20 was 1 MHz, BBC micro was 2. (Otherwise the Vic 20 would have been faster than the C64....) Finally C128 had 2MHz
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Vic 20 was 1 MHz, BBC micro was 2. (Otherwise the Vic 20 would have been faster than the C64....) Finally C128 had 2MHz
You are correct. My mistake. However, the C128 was an 8502 (fast version of the 6510).
Nice comparison (Score:2)
Of course, the AT&T contract was only required in the USA; in parts of the rest of the world dial-up access was available without a contract from a phone company in the '80s. The price comparison doesn't include the contract for the iPhone. Comparing it to one on a pre-pay contract would be more fair, which brings the C-64 a lot closer (until you account for inflation).
The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
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The iPhone wins on portability, although the C-64 could drive an external display including a large TV (no HD support though).
It did have s-video though. While the plug was nothing like the current standard, a Commodore 64 monitor used the same luminance and chrominance setup. To make the slashdotting of a frontpage-linked site a tiny bit worse:
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/Commodore_C128/C64C_Video [allpinouts.org]
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Wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare the iPhone 3GS to the Apple IIgs?
Price comparison (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
Re:Price comparison (Score:5, Funny)
The iPhone 3G S has 4,000 times the RAM (256MB) for one-third the price (with an AT&T contract)
Your price comparison is not really good. You should compare an uncontracted iphone price (500 or 600) to that of a c64. The contract lock is worth money - especially considering how much you buy to maintain your service. THen again you get more from the contract (phone service, access to the internet, etc). So a better comparison is the straight phone price to the c64 price.
Don't forget to correct for 27 years of inflation! Incidentally, this brings the C64 price to $1,318.59. Beat that, Apple Elitists.
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We'd probably also point out that the price of the C64 went down a lot. I remember them being around £50 in Argos and shops carrying a lot of games for under £5.
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It looks like you're trying to draw a contrast here. However, the developer tools for the iPhone are also free [apple.com].
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Well... some items in his list he uses 1982 analogies (Toys R Us, Phone Monopoly, etc), and some he lists things available for C64 now (Twitter client). He could list either the equivalent price today ($1,318.59 2009 dollars), or the ebay price today (~$20 shipped).
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I also don't recall if he mentioned having adjusted the C64 price for inflation.
Progress (Score:3, Interesting)
At least this time Apple rejected something that was actually forbidden by the app store's rules.
Flash emulator (Score:2)
The iPhone might have hardware 3D graphics, but only the C64 had hardware sprites.
This Flash C64 emulator [codeazur.com.br] is pretty nifty. It still needs some work though. I guess the iPhone doesn't support flash, but other phones might be able to run it.
If you want to run a little C64 basic on that emulator, be aware that the key for the double quote character is SHIFT-2. (I can't believe I remembered that!)
10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
20 GOTO 10
RUN
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Well, the Atari 8-bit machines had sprites in hardware too, and had it before the C-64 came out.
But that's not why I'm following up. When I read your shift-2 comment, my first thought was "well, of COURSE! Where else would it be? That's not changed in the last 20 years or...
(looking down at my keyboard)
Huh. I guess I've retrained my fingers."
I don't have any problems typing them, but if you asked me, I'd probably say "shift-2" is the location of double quotes.
Sprites (Score:2)
Well, the Atari 8-bit machines had sprites in hardware too, and had it before the C-64 came out.
The first machine with sprites was the TI-99. Hardware sprites were the master's thesis project of Danny Hillis [wikipedia.org].
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What's so odd about pressing " oh, I mean shift+2 to get a "?
It's a pretty standard way to type that character on a lot of non-US keyboard layouts.
/Mikael
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In US keyboards, there's an @ there now.
The funny thing is, just like the other commenters, it seems like second nature to me too. I mean, I type normally on an modern US keyboard, but when I fired up a C=64 emulator for the very first time a few years ago, one of the first things I typed was:
LOAD"$",8
without missing a beat.
It was only a few minutes later that I noticed that there was no quotation-mark over the "2" key and that due to some freakish mental glitch, my fingers kne
Joystick + RS232 Bluetooth (Score:2)
Unfair comparison -- didn't include FREEDOM (Score:5, Insightful)
They forgot to include FREEDOM. You were free on the C64, no one could stop you from making applications, running them and distributing them freely to friends, who in turn, without big brother watching, could distribute your creations as well. You're not even allowed ot run a python interpreter on the iphone.
And don't tell me about jailbreaking, jailbreaking is a DMCA violation and if AT&T catches you, you will be kicked off their network. You don't have control of your device, with the C64 you did.
Re:Unfair comparison -- didn't include FREEDOM (Score:5, Insightful)
Calm down.
I agree not only could you write any code you wanted for free but Commodore included the scematics of the C-64! At least they did with mine but I had an early one.
Not only that people disassembled the kernel and wrote books that included the listing and nobody sent them a take down notice!
That was simpler time full of Compute and Byte magazine and taking your best girl to see ET and WarGames.
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That is true. The indispensable "C=64 Advanced Programmer's Guide" included not only a complete Assembly Language reference and detailed memory and bus maps, but a fold-in schematic diagram of the entire machine.
-dZ.
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Could imagine any company doing that how?
Of course I think Apple did the same back then as well.
Woz was the true Steve.
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IBM included schematics and a BIOS listing for the PC, XT, and the AT (through the AT 339).
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I'm not sure I understand your point.
Many companies may have done this in the past, that is true; but the point is that you'd be hard pressed to find this kind of official tinkering support from a hardware company nowadays.
-dZ.
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That was simpler time full of Compute and Byte magazine and taking your best girl to see ET and WarGames.
"Best girl" I take it meaning the most complete and functional of your robot companions.
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That's ridiculous, you can do all that today as well, except you don't want to because you have an iphone. And anyway, the iphone is probably powerful enough to run an ...
Oh. Never mind.
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They forgot to include FREEDOM. You were free on the C64, no one could stop you from making applications, running them and distributing them freely to friends, who in turn, without big brother watching, could distribute your creations as well. You're not even allowed ot run a python interpreter on the iphone.
And don't tell me about jailbreaking, jailbreaking is a DMCA violation and if AT&T catches you, you will be kicked off their network. You don't have control of your device, with the C64 you did.
So get a G1 phone. It has a keyboard. And with the developer (unsubsidized) version you get to choose your network.
I don't understand why everybody plays Apple's game and gives them publicity about, for Pete's sake, turning down applications!
Just abandon them.
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Bollocks. AT&T could give a rat's ass what you do with your phone, as long as they're getting their $90/month from you. Apple, on the other hand, loses a lot of money if people start getting their apps from somewhere else. If AT&T kicks you off their network, they lose a customer who they had managed to lock in for 2 years of overpriced service.
(Actually, AT&T might care if a whole bunch of people started tethering their iPhones wit
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You know, since the C64 is so free, why aren't you still using it? You are STILL free on it. Not sure why you keep putting it in the past tense.
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So you continued to do it tomorrow. Or buy a C64 yourself.
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Sorry, in the Palm world, or the Windows Mobile world, the cost of entry, aside from the phone itself, is exactly $0.
It strikes me that the value of
a) The highest quality mobile development toolchain available, supported by the device developer
b) Multiple direct development support incidents for your own coding problems from the same engineers that develop the OS
c) Distribution directly to every single device capable of running your application through all worldwide carriers with a single route of direct pa
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It strikes me that the value of
a) The highest quality mobile development toolchain available, supported by the device developer
b) Multiple direct development support incidents for your own coding problems from the same engineers that develop the OS
c) Distribution directly to every single device capable of running your application through all worldwide carriers with a single route of direct payment
is vastly greater than $99.
Sure, but the negative value of
d) Inability to allow people from accessing your application without going through a third-party's approval process
is vastly greater than $99.
Also, VS.NET > XCode, so it could easily be argued that the platform you can't get a) is Apple's, not Microsoft's.
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There is no apparent limit on the number of people that can be added to a team.
However, the practical limit is that you can only provision for 100 devices from a single account.
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modded Troll?? I love my C64! That was a comment of endearment!
Obviously these young whippersnapper moderators never had to load a file off an audiotape before. Man, if there's one thing that can make a 1541 floppy drive look fast, it's a Commodore datasette!
The only comparison that matters (Score:4, Insightful)
The only comparison that matters is you could write and run your own code on the C64 and you cannot on the iPhone.
You *can* write & run your own code on the iPh (Score:4, Informative)
I think you have to buy the development key ($99) to deploy to a physical phone, but you can write whatever you like and deploy it to your phone. You can deploy to as many as 50 different phones without going through the app store or buying a site license.
I don't remember for sure - you might even be able to deploy to a phone that's physically connected to your Mac without paying anything.
I agree that you're nowhere near as free on the iPhone as we were on the C64, but it's just wrong to say that we can't run any code we like on our phone.
I think it's also worth pointing out that there are huge potential exploits on a phone that weren't there on a C64. E.g. I could distribute a free app that eventually calls a 1-900 number I own, with no modem sticking out the back for you to disconnect.
I have written and distributed an iPhone app [pharceapp.com] (and written C64 apps), so I'm not just spouting BS.
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I'm trying to image a C64 developer proudly crowing, "We're allowed to sell 50 copies!"
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I don't remember for sure - you might even be able to deploy to a phone that's physically connected to your Mac without paying anything.
You can, but only if you jailbreak. Build the app in Xcode without code signing, scp it to /Applications on the iPhone, then run ldid (available in Cydia) to give it a fake signature that will allow it to run. Yes, this is very stupid.
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You can. You just need to either jailbreak it, or become an iPhone developer, which is ridiculously easy.
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The only comparison that matters is you could write and run your own code on the C64 and you cannot on the iPhone.
Hmm, I would have thought another important distinction would be that one of them fits in your pocket, and the other is the size of a breadbox, not including the monitor.
Not to dismiss the calls for greater openness on the iPhone, which I fully support, but I can't help but imagine what a typical C64 user back in the day would think about this conversation. "Wait, you want to run a program on y
Yes, but... (Score:2, Funny)
Darned work computer... (Score:2)
I just realized yesterday that my phone (Motorola i776) has as much memory as the computer at work which they refuse to upgrade. The first computer I had that would run DOS was a used IBM-XT, with 1/5 the drive space my phone has memory (unless I'm screwing up the math, I think I'm getting heat stroke from foolishly going outside). The XT had 175k IIRC.
I just read TFA, what are the respective clock speeds? The XP was 4 mz, I have no idea how fast my phone's (or the iPhone's) processor is.
Price is wrong (Score:4, Interesting)
The article compares the current price of the iPhone with the introductory price of the C=64. A few years in (circa 1984), you could buy a C=64 from K-mart at $90.00 USD. This was convenience, since the cheap power supply tended to burn up and die, and it was sometimes easier and cheaper to just buy a replacement machine. I went through three of the things back then!
-dZ.
You think your Commodore 64 is really neat-o? (Score:5, Funny)
What kinda chip you got in there, a Dorito?
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RIAA violation, "Weird" Al Yankovic wants his royalty check for you ripping off his song lyrics. :)
pocket-size computer/communicator of 2035? (Score:2)
I'll use my perspective as having been an experienced computer engineer back in 1982 (same age as Steve J).
Some aspects will evolve at Moore's Law. Some aspects may reach saturation where new features dont make design or engineering sense (e.g. stagnant pocket calculators). And the things that much slower than Moore's, e.g energy sources.
First, will the pocket-to-palm size video screen form factor still make sense? Yes it feels natural. Perhaps thinner
Apple][e (Score:3, Interesting)
Inaccurate (Score:2)
Nonsense. I have around 17000 C64 games in my collection, and at least 7000 demos. I don't how many applications there are in total, but I bet two sacks of gold it's at least 100.000.
And what's that about "Major Hollywood releases available for download same date as DVD"? No, but a lot of titles hit the shops the same day as the movie they were based on premiered at the cinema.
On the one hand it's nice to see stuff about the C64 on Slashdot, but it's kinda silly
Will this set the standard for emulator support (Score:2)
on the iPhone?
So no Apple //, Mac OS 9-, Commodore Amiga, Atari ST, Atari 400/800, or even TRS-80 and MS-DOS emulators on the iPhone?
They forgot one benchmark (Score:2)
Time to load Slashdot 2.0: [still waiting] [still waiting]
Though there's a 50-50 chance the C64 would render it better. [pixelcity.com]
10000 apps? I don't think so. (Score:5, Informative)
put it on Android (Score:3, Informative)
Apple rejects anything they think will turn them away from the phone's operation or make changes to it.
PUT IT ON ANDROID and WM. You Won't be rejected there.
No Flash
No competitive Browsers
No File Exploring
No downloading to the phone
and people say I should get an iPhone, there's a couple of reasons NOT to.
I LUV MY C64! (Score:3, Insightful)
I saved and saved to get my C64. Way better than that stupid VIC 20.
I have hundreds games for it. About a dozen or so game that I enjoy so much I keep my C64 around and 'load' it up so I can play them. A emulator for the Iphone/touch would be something I would love to have and pay for it - provided it had the games I love to play.
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Attached Physical Keyboard
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You mean a reset switch?
It wasn't hard, there's a reset pin on many of the C64 ports, just connect that to GND and the C64 resets.
Of course there were many games that managed to prevent this somehow. They also managed to prevent copy cartridges like Datel's Action Replay and Trilogic's Freeze Frame from taking control.
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I seem to remember that IcePick was relentless, and I was able to freeze any game and snap its memory.
-dZ.
Re:Couldn't find the size? (Score:4, Funny)
1820g... 404 mm * 216mm * 75mm
And how does that exactly relate to size? It just looks like a bunch of gibberish mixed with random numbers to my imperialist eyes.!!!
I want pounds and inches you insensitive clod!!!
Bill
Re:Couldn't find the size? (Score:4, Funny)
And how does that exactly relate to size? It just looks like a bunch of gibberish mixed with random numbers to my imperialist eyes.!!!
I want pounds and inches you insensitive clod!!!
You don't recognize the traditional Imperial unit of length, the Manchester mule? Defined in 1621 as the length of the Duke of Manchester's prize mule, Jebediah, and equal to exactly 29 handspans, it's the only unit of length a gentleman should use.
Now I should say that at 404mm long, and at a total of 1820 greasemonkeys in weight, that this Commodore 64 is quite the small electronic computer!
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Hear where?
Re:Units... sigh. (Score:4, Informative)
Well if you really want to nitpick, the 300 bits per second should be 300 baud. But hey, I guess all nitpickers aren't perfect.
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Uh to be fair that was a ROM boot. Try loading software on a C64 verses loading software on an iPhone and see how the times differ. Gotta remember those 1541 floppy drives.