US Has Secret Tools To Force Internet On Dictatorships 282
4phun found a Wired story that talks about the military options when a dictatorship decides to cut off internet access to its population.
"The American military does have a second set of options if it ever wants to force connectivity on a country against its ruler’s wishes. There’s just one wrinkle. 'It could be considered an act of war.'"
Hopefully the same options will be available for us when our government gets around to implementing our own kill switch.
Can we please have this in the US? (Score:2, Insightful)
Anything to break the usual Comcast/whatever monopoly for ISP service would be welcomed.
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Having the fiber wholesaled would be the next best thing to sliced bread for me. Doesn't matter if the state owned it, or if it were well regulated and privately owned.
There is one thing I miss about the days about the old dialup times. There were tons of ISPs, and a lot of them were actually just plain cool. The Eden Matrix [1], and Illuminati Online come to mind. I'd love to see mom and pop ISPs come back, especially ISPs run by sysadmins for sysadmins, and offered services such as local (to the ISP)
We assume that... (Score:3)
...the access would be for the people to communicate and keep it real, that we're the white hats. But of course the access would only be granted to advance a military objective, such as continuing and fanning an uprising perceived beneficial to our interests.
Why stop there? Why not seed blogs, twitter and facebook and initiate a misinformation campaign?
Re:We assume that... (Score:4, Funny)
Why stop there? Why not seed blogs, twitter and facebook and initiate a misinformation campaign?
Patience, Grasshopper.
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Why stop there? Why not seed blogs, twitter and facebook and initiate a misinformation campaign?
You mean like the news story I saw Sunday morning interviewing a "protester" that said (paraphrase) We Need you Obama, do something, people are dying!. This is from an "Egyptian" in the square no less.
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I don't see why you think that it was disingenuous to expect that a real person on the street might plead to us to stop the violence.
All good propaganda starts out being perfectly plausible.
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Generally, has it ever been not about our interests [chomsky.info]?...
Re:We assume that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not seed blogs, twitter and facebook...
Because by Executive Order (http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-05-30.pdf, page 19), "U.S. PSYOP forces will not target U.S. citizens at any time, in any location globally, or under any circumstances"
The internet causes a problem in this regard, as obviously it's designed so that all of it accessible from everyplace else (generally speaking). So while it's possible to put a server someplace that is firewalled to only send/relay info from a range of IP addresses, the military can't do that with Twitter; if they started putting PSYOPS on Twitter, it'd be accessible to US citizens, would could then be considered 'targeted'.
Of course, these restrictions are by executive order, not US law, and they apply to the US Military only.
Side note: on the next page, it spells out copyright issues as an area of concern... don't want to get sued by the MPAA in the middle of WW III because you broadcast a video of Mickey Mouse without permission...
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I've seen US military propaganda all over the place, targeted at US citizens...
Drop Satellite phones (Score:2)
That would work, although it'd be rather expensive - http://www.thuraya.com/ [thuraya.com]
444 kbit/s. I guess that's better than what most citizens have even when the internet is working.
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444 kbit/s. I guess that's better than what most citizens have even when the internet is working.
Yeah, that's pretty much what my Verizon DSL tops out at.
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Huh? italics don't work anymore in either "Plain Old Text" or "HTML Formatted"? bold still works in both though.
Wonder if this is Taco's way of nudging users towards the non-classic Slashdot format (which AFAIK makes it impossible to directly go to your comment from your comments page.)
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Full story here [dslreports.com].
I've been putting off ordering a new modem since I have a feeling it won't solve anything and will just cost money.
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Good in a sense, but I guess just having a sat phone will be enough to send you to a dark prison somewhere.
It's nice that the newer generation of sat phones seem to vaguely resemble cell phones, though.
internet access an inviolable human right? (Score:4, Interesting)
If anything this dilutes the idea of real human rights - if every country in the world doesn't provide "human rights" to someone or other it becomes meaningless to criticise counties on this ground. Human rights should be confined to life, liberty, and essentials that we would all agree on.
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The thing about rights is that they are NEVER given or granted by a government. Rights are inherent. A government may protect or make exercising rights easier. More commonly they restrict, prohibit, and block exercising rights.
Human rights should be confined to life, liberty, and essentials that we would all agree on.
Good luck with that. I respect your utopian idea that we can all agree on basic, inherent, and fundamental rights but it won't happen. The best thing you can do to protect rights for yourself and others is to exercise them regularly and often and always stop and think if something you
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always stop and think if something you're doing will be infringing on the rights of someone else
But a straightforward ability to ignore such violations, to convince oneself in being oh so good and having higher moral ground, is one of the nicest things about the export of suffering [chomsky.info]...
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So are do you argue that there should not be natural rights (I realize your post wasn't normative) since there are no sky fairies?
Or the reverse? There are no rights without sky fairies, therefore we should believe in some or another $DEITY.
Also, since you seem to be Phil major, is the above line of reasoning basically Nietzsche's, or have there been other developments before or after?
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What are these natural rights? Got a list of them? Are you sure there aren't any more than those on that list?
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"So are do you argue that there should not be natural rights (I realize your post wasn't normative) since there are no sky fairies?"
The question is not whether they should exist, but whether they do exist. He said, rights are social constructs (even human rights) so there are no inherent/natural/objective rights. And if human rights are social constructs, then they can differ from culture to culture. (Ok, there was a UN decision about that, but that only applies to those participating.)
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There is no such thing as an "inherent" right, despite flowery language.
If you believe there is a right to life, feel free to wander thru a wild area with carnivores and debate your "right". Or drop off in the middle of the ocean and scream about your "right" to life as you drown.
If a "right" was granted by God, no mere mortal could take it away, even if they tried.
Rights are granted by society. Society is who will punish you if you try to exercise a "right" they say you don't have.
Re:internet access an inviolable human right? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think he meant "internet is a right" in the same way that "freedom of the press" is a right. It doesn't mean the government has to give you a printing press.
Re:internet access an inviolable human right? (Score:4, Insightful)
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"Human rights should be confined to life, liberty, and essentials that we would all agree on."
I definitely would have a problem with that. In fact the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution precisely for the reason that the Founders were concerned about the "tyranny of the majority" resulting in the limitation of rights by the voting population. The States, at the time the Constitution was written did after all permit slavery. And we have all seen opinion polls where voters were shown one of the first
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My point is that invocation of "natural law" means nothing, since the natural social laws that two people ascribe to may be very different. The reason I cited physics is to point out that these are the only objective natural laws, and that talking about social natural law is absurd.
In Saudi Arabia, people will tell you that natural law includes the fact that it is in woman's nature to make babies and stay at home, and man's nature to do work. In Europe people will tell you that it is natural law that men an
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Nonsense. This is the 21st century!
Everything I want is a human right, guaranteed by that Constitution I read last week in high school. I can say anything to anybody, and they can't complain because I have free speech. Freedom of religion means that anything contradicting my religion should be prohibited from being within the same state as me, and right to bear arms means I can have keep a cruise missile in my bedroom.
There's some other stuff too, but I got bored reading. Lawyers ned 2 lern 2 rite, u no? I
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...and right to bear arms means I can have keep a cruise missile in my bedroom.
That's what I tell my wife, anyway. :-)
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I think it's not that you're obligated to provide Internet access (though social democracies like in Scandinavia do believe that).
It's more that you can't (or ought not) restrict Internet access (privately paid for).
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I was listening to TWIL and they had a Libertarian lawyer on who said he agrees with the sentiment that people have about the internet being a right, however, he disagrees with how it is being portrayed as a positive right rather than a negative right.
He would rather see it described as something akin to the freedom of speech (which access to the internet can be considered a subset of) for example:
"The government shall not interferer with the ability of a person to use the internet to communicate in a free
Simpler, low-tech internet (Score:5, Funny)
People who want internet access write down the URL on a piece of paper, smuggle the piece of paper to a CIA operative, and the response is broadcast in the form of printouts of the requested web page dumped out of a Hercules C130.
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Good luck with that, even if you manage to smuggle fast enough for your amazon session not to expire, all your neighbours in a 100m radius will be able to read your order in the printout-drops, never mind that hardcore porn...
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the response is broadcast in the form of printouts of the requested web page dumped out of a Hercules C130.
Why use a plane? Theres already an RFC for carrier pidgeons.
Satphones (Score:5, Interesting)
progress! (Score:2)
i remember when people said the way to defeat totalitarian/hard-line islamic countries was not to drop bombs, but to drop TVs and fridges filled with coke...
Now we are talking about dropping smartphones with free pron subscriptions, progress!
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Could the Afghanistan war could have been averted simply by giving the Taliban rulers free stuff in exchange for giving up their overstaying guests, OBL's crew?
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I've been looking out from my balcony since I read this article, looking for the drone that will drop my satphone for free, fast Internet access. I haven't seen one yet.
Oh, wait. The country where I live is not at war with the USA. Does anyone know how to start a war? Maybe we need a dictator or something.
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If you've never seen the movie 'The Mouse that Roared', go find it.
Basically, a microscopic European country of a few thousand people, after a economic disaster, realizes that countries that the US defeats in battle are actually better off than countries that it did not fight, thanks to all the aid it gives out.
So this tiny country, armed with pikes and swords, declares war on the US and invades New York, and already have their surrender prepared.
And, because this is a movie, they accidentally win the wa
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Usable data rates would require a dish antenna and, depending where in the world we're talking about, putting new satellites in orbit.
deploy this in the US (Score:2)
Physical disconnect (Score:2)
A severed fibre or disconnected plug has little in the way of backdoors.
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(As for wifi, an access point isn't much good if personal devices are confiscated.)
ah, the joys of false equivalency (Score:5, Insightful)
the american president is not going to cut off the internet and start goose stepping around the white house. this ranks right up there with other paranoid schizophrenic fantasies like rednecks with guns in the woods are going to save us from fascism. please stop mentioning the american internet kill switch in the same sentence as egypt, china, or iran. its just... dumb
we live in an abused, yes, compromised, yes, but still functioning democracy. meaning rule is by consent, not force and fear. any president who cuts off the internet is going to have to explain his or herself to the people who elected him or her. and the american people are still electing presidents (now comes the part where some genius complains about liberal media and propagandized morons or conservative media and propagandized morons... snore... thank you for thinking so lowly of your fellow citizens. oh where is your nonexistent utopia where every citizen is perfectly ideologically in tune with you as only an "educated" person would be?)
in egypt or china or iran the kill switch can be invoked, and then: you got a problem with that? there's no accountability to the people of those countries. if the people get angry, crack skulls until they cower again in fear (until blessedly, as the people in egypt show us, the people just aren't afraid anymore, and it is revealed to the world exactly why democracy, as messy as it is, is still so superior to despotism: its simply more stable because it manufactures legitimacy by consulting the people)
but fear is not how it works in the usa. really, mr. snarky teenager. do you feel afraid criticizing the us government on slashdot? oh, why not? maybe because you have that right AND THAT RIGHT IS RESPECTED. aka: you do not live in a society ruled by fear. want to test that? ok: try criticizing the chinese government in china or the iranian government in iran as vocally and as vociferously and as loudly and as repeatedly as some of you false equivalency geniuses, who think your democracy is just as bad as despotism. go ahead, go on with your bad self. what happens to squeaky wheels like you in iran, china, or egypt?
now that you understand the difference, please understand that the reasons for the use of an internet kill switch are for entirely different criteria in democracies versus despotic countries. a valid use: some armageddeon level ddos or a warhol virus, versus an invalid use: preventing the people from coordinating and rising up against their oppressors
look: there are many problems with the american government. i repeat: there are many problems with the american government. i am not an american apologist. but making snark about the american internet kill switch in the same breath as the policies of egypt, or iran, or china, governments clearly far, far worse in terms of the rights of its citizens, that doesn't advance any cause you believe in. it just makes you look stupid and either ungrateful for how well you have it, or simply naive and uneducated about how little rights people have in other countries
teenage level snark might get snickers from other snarky teenagers, but its not the path to valid commentary on your government or any other government in the world
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Great post. I do find it amusing that people worry about the US government cutting off the Internet. If any kill switch is invoked it would tend to be a boarder kill switch. AKA cut the US from the rest of the world not the internal networks. Just as the US cut off telephone, telex, and telegraph access to Japan, Germany, and Italy during WWII. Even that would take a something horrific to trip.
Yes this fear is right up there with the nut cases that read the Turner Diaries and feel that it is important.
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If any kill switch is invoked it would tend to be a boarder kill switch.
Phew! That makes me feel better knowing that the government only has the power to cut us off from the rest of the world internet-wise. That power is necessary and they should totally have it.
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(why do you think "rule by consent" precludes fear and, partly, force from being elements of it?)
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this shit is a legacy of the cold war. the ussr did the same
that doesn't excuse this disgusting behavior. i agree with you: this shit better stop. it does no good anymore to get in bed with strongmen. the usa might be inclined to continue to do so in the middle east, but that only increases the people's hartred of the usa and makes the usa a valid target in their eyes
the only valid foreign policy for the usa is: spread democracy with soft power. its the only way to not appear a hypocrite. it might cost the
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(I know perfectly what they did BTW, having intimate experience with one place formerly behind the Iron Curtain; it's just how the very successful PR of one side - demonstrated also
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I don't think I would worry about Obama or any other president in the near future cutting off Internet access to the country. There would be tons of lawsuits and our country is too legal-based for this to stand for long. What I would be concerned about, though, is our government shutting down websites/seizing domain names of companies that it decrees are illegal without any previous due process. (Fighting a lengthy court battle to recover your domain name while you are down or online under a lesser-known
Re:ah, the joys of false equivalency (Score:5, Interesting)
We live in an abused, yes, compromised, yes, but still functioning democracy, meaning rule is by consent, not force and fear.
... unless you're Muslim or involved in any way in Wikileaks, in which case most bets are off. You can have your property seized, be searched and harassed at airports, and of course be labeled an enemy combatant and sent to Gitmo or maybe sent to our good friends to be tortured. Julian Assange has been very clear that the reason he's fighting extradition is because he doesn't trust the Swedes to not hand him over to the United States, and he doesn't trust the United States to follow its own laws right now.
Maybe because you have that right AND THAT RIGHT IS RESPECTED.
An example of how this is being undermined: A good friend of Bradley Manning visited him in prison regularly, and reported on the conditions Manning was being held under, conditions which were very different from what the US military said they were in public statements. This eventually got national attention by the mainstream media. Shortly afterwords, when this friend went back for another visit, most of what he took with him, including his laptop, was seized. No charges, no due process, no probable cause.
Or when a foreigner who had done some work defending Wikileaks went to visit the US, upon arrival at US customs all his electronics were seized, again without any kind of charges or judicial review. The foreigner had anticipated this and had a representative of the ACLU meet him there to argue his case, to no avail. He'd also had the good sense to ensure that the electronics in question just had a copy of the US Bill of Rights on them.
That's even ignoring issues like "Free Speech Zones", police aggression against protesters and reporters at events like party conventions or pro-immigration rallies, and the occasional lethal penalty for Driving/Walking While Not White.
So no, that right isn't really respected. There exists a classified list of actions that will cause you to be mistreated by the US government. Right now, that appears to be a fairly small list, but we have no idea really what's on it.
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It's the Plebian Laws of Rome all over again.
The aristocracy created laws for the Plebs to adhere to, except the Plebs had no idea what those laws were.
You found out when the lictors were beating you in the streets with cudgels.
The methodology has changed but as long as countries have secret laws no citizens are safe.
Re:ah, the joys of false equivalency (Score:4, Insightful)
No charges, no due process, no probable cause.
Of course! He endangered national security, was a terrorist, and failed to think of the children! How could you seemingly support such a person?
So no, that right isn't really respected.
Well, there's a good excuse for that! In some places, people have it far worse than us. Therefore, as long as we aren't as bad off as them, our government should be able to abuse us as they please. Don't you dare complain about this...
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look i said it twice: "there are many problems with the american government"
do you want me to say it four more times?
i get the impression you read my words and thought "this jerkwad is saying that since china does something bad, it's ok the usa does something bad. well let me remind this jerkwad how much the usa really sucks"
no
what i am saying is: when china does something really bad, don't dismiss it because the usa does bad things too
THAT'S my point. i am not an apologist for the usa, i am not deflecting
Re:ah, the joys of false equivalency (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason for all those liberties is that someone, somewhere, sometime, was vigilant in either having them recognized, or conserving them.
So when people talk about kill switches, they're just being vigilant, thereby preserving those liberties.
And if the President isn't going to (or shouldn't) kill the Internet, why bring it up at all (as some Senators did)?
Don't forget Joe Lieberman killed Wikileaks' access to the Internet with just a phone call.
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And if the President isn't going to (or shouldn't) kill the Internet, why bring it up at all (as some Senators did)?
Because some people think he should have the power to protect critical computer systems across the country from compromise. But hey, let's just pretend for a moment that people aren't once again talking out of their asses for political purposes when they talk about the Internet kill switch. The Communications Act of 1934 *already gives* the President the power to close or take control over "any facility or station for wire communication" when the U.S. is at war. Go ahead, read 47 U.S.C. 606, I'll wait.
If
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Is your shift key broken?
I couldn't read your text, I was distracted by that. Sorry.
Nobody is creating a false equivalence (Score:3)
the american president is not going to cut off the internet and start goose stepping around the white house. this ranks right up there with other paranoid schizophrenic fantasies like rednecks with guns in the woods are going to save us from fascism. please stop mentioning the american internet kill switch in the same sentence as egypt, china, or iran. its just... dumb
we live in an abused, yes, compromised, yes, but still functioning democracy. meaning rule is by consent, not force and fear...
Goddamnit, dude. Way to miss the point. Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, is saying the US is as bad as Egypt or China. What we do say when we compare the proposal for the kill switch in the US with what happened in Egypt is that we don't want to move in that direction. It's not that we fear tomorrow the President is going to go dictator on us...it's that we don't want to make it any easier for this to one day happen, even 200 or 400 years from now.
but fear is not how it works in the usa. really, mr. snarky teenager. do you feel afraid criticizing the us government on slashdot? oh, why not? maybe because you have that right AND THAT RIGHT IS RESPECTED.
Exactly. So now is the time to use those rights.
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you know, people actually voted, and their votes were tallied, and the tally determined the president. sorry about that, i guess?
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The lack of internet didn't stop the American Revolution
Yes, but there wasn't much technology on the government side either. You may not need a completely level playing field for revolution, but it has to be in the same ballpark. If the government has modern high-speed communication and automatic weapons, and you just have a few muzzleloader rifles and some lanterns in a church steeple for communication, you are not going to have a successful revolution no matter how passionate you are. Modern communication is necessary for a modern revolution.
"Classified" (Score:3)
Wow this article is full of "Well we would , but we don't want to go into those military secrets."
> operatives could smuggle small satellite dishes into a country
Seriously?
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Actually this is all just guess work. It is public knowledge that the US has flying TV and radio stations. It is also public knowledge that the US has flying cell sites. I mean think about it. Put two and to together and you have a way to put up internet and cell service in an area.
It could be used to provide communications during a natural disaster or to broadcast information to a populace you want to provide information and news too. One man's news is another propaganda. Think of Voice of America and Radi
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I think there are better ways to provide access to the internet to people in a hostile country than invading their airspace!
I know you guys like to interfere but.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Has the Voice of America gone dark? (Score:5, Informative)
I ask that rhetorically, but has VOA become so neutered and politically correct that it could not at least broadcast current events to the Egyptian people? It wasn't that long ago that VOA was jammed regularly in the former Soviet Union.
Carpet-bombing the country with 'cheap' sat phones or wireless routers for use with a foreign-sponsored offshore Internet service sounds like fun, though. All we need to do is figure out how to set up the link so aircraft don't need to overfly the target nation, and set these up as mesh nodes to extend the network into the interior. And keep the airborne links far enough outside the target's borders to pretend they are in 'international' airspace. Battery power is not a good idea, but it may be the simplest thing. Imagine a national ban on batteries... USB-powered devices would be ideal, but that's a tall order technilogically...
These flying access points better be remotely piloted, though. Hosni in particular knows his way around air defense, and has good equipment.
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You overfly some cheap drones, you drop some solar-powered access point lawn darts, done. We already have ample overhead communications options to provide the rest of the system.
plausible deniability (Score:2)
Dictator: Shut down your satellite access
US: Oh were really sorry those wascally hackers keep breaking our pass codes! Were trying really hard to lock them out (changes password to fred ) there that should do it.
One could construe their satellite hacking problems in Brazil [wired.com] to be laying ground work for this position.
Transmission of IP Datagrams on Avian Carriers (Score:2)
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1149.html [faqs.org]
Knowing this is viable (Score:2)
I think it would be nice/responsible if the U.N. had this technology and could deploy it whenever ANY country uses its kill switch. (Including freakin America.)
Unfortunately, I don't believe the current U.N. would act in a timely fashion for the tech to do them any good.
several things possible (Score:2)
Trojan Boot Loaders in all routers ( and maybe switches ) overriding configured settings - this does not prevent disruption of communication if the Internet providers really have to pull the plug - literally the fibre patch cables.
How would this work? (Score:2)
The cellphone provider would have to fly in a tight circle to serve a small area on the ground (otherwise you'd lose connection). This makes it impractical to serve a large area (you'd need too many aircraft).
Wifi is even more difficult, since the range of standard wifi is not enough.
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Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:3)
Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:5, Insightful)
So unilateral action and nation-building is ok when we use it to benefit the 'right' people?
Throwing Mubarek under the bus and openly supporting a revolution would have been disastrous for US relations with the middle east. It would have been perceived as yet another example of the US overthrowing an uncooperative government because that government was no longer convenient for us.
An act of war against a falling dictator that very well might have had a huge amount of pull with his very powerful military would have been extremely risky.
Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:4, Insightful)
Throwing Mubarek under the bus and openly supporting a revolution would have been disastrous for US relations with the middle east. It would have been perceived as yet another example of the US overthrowing an uncooperative government because that government was no longer convenient for us.
What the fuck? Are you even reading the news?
We have given Mubarak and his jackbooted murderers 60 billion dollars over 30 years. We are one of the main reasons he's stayed in power. Helping to throw him out would have finally signaled that the United States gave a damn about democracy in the middle east, but it's the same old story that it's been for a hundred years: we don't want Arabs to be able to vote, because they might prefer using their resources for their own benefit instead of ours.
That's not meddling in the Middle East. It's stopping meddling in the Middle East.
Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:4, Insightful)
That country has been a jack-booted dictatorship for 5,000+ years now. If you think it was the fault of the U.S. that they aren't a democracy, you don't know anything about history.
Would you have considered it "meddling" when the United States forced France and Britain to give the Suez Canal back to the Egyptians after Nassar nationalized it back in 1956?
Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:5, Insightful)
That country has been a jack-booted dictatorship for 5,000+ years now. If you think it was the fault of the U.S. that they aren't a democracy, you don't know anything about history.
Nice strawman herring.
Would you have considered it "meddling" when the United States forced France and Britain to give the Suez Canal back to the Egyptians after Nassar nationalized it back in 1956?
Oh, back in the day [wikipedia.org] when the United States wasn't an entirely hypocritical pile of shit. It's cool though. We have been holding it down for US business interests since we bribed Sadat with enough cash in the 70s to keep the Suez in operation, while aiding Israel with destroying Palestinian nationalism. Brilliant geopolitics with zero moral value, as usual.
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Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope, that's still meddling.
The best the US can do is to simply leave Egypt alone. If they throw their weight on either side they are meddling with a country's internal affairs and simply planting the seed for the next revolution.
If the US drops support for Mubarak it will show to other supported dictators (Pakistan, SA etc) that US-support is limited when it comes to popular uprisings. Anti-government groups will use this weakness to topple their governments and dictators will have to choose between force or surrender.
If the US openly supports anti-government groups in Egypt this will bolster numerous groups even further and the US will be seen as a very untrustworthy ally at best. How would you see China if they openly backed revolutionary groups in the US? Even if those groups might be morally right, it still is meddling.
Alas, US interests are everywhere and not meddling will harm those interests. The reality is that Egypt is most likely a lose/lose/lose situation for the US.
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That worked so well with Iran and the overthrow of the Shah. Sometimes it's better to stick with the devil you know.
Don't conveniently begin that story with the Shah. The Shah was our jackbooted thug who replaced the democratically elected government of Mossadegh, whom we overthrew in a CIA/MI6 coup in 1953 in Operation AJAX [wikipedia.org]. The Shah's SAVAK forces also regularly tortured and killed political dissidents for about thirty years before the revolution. The crime of that democratic government? It leaned left and wanted a fairer share of oil revenues.
So fuck your revisionist history, asshole. You can impress the rubes who iro
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That worked so well with Iran and the overthrow of the Shah. Sometimes it's better to stick with the devil you know.
The Shah was yet another dictator installed by the US and UK after deposing a democratic government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d [wikipedia.org]'état
Sometimes it's better not to back devils - the US is not obliged to send huge amounts of military aid to Pakistan, Egypt, Israel, Uzbekistan etc etc. and probably a lot of covert funding for guerrilla groups that we don't know about (see numerous examples from past decades). Maybe that seemed like a good idea at some point, but we've reached the point
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So if the US is seen overthrowing Mubarak and a government we have aid and defense treaties with (Camp David isn't just about Egypt and Israeli relations) then what power or moral authority does the US have
If you think thirty years of funding murder and dictatorship in Egypt makes the United States some sort of moral authority, well, you're probably an American.
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Yeah. The Palestinians are as dumb as those stupid Iroquois. If only they had made a treaty with the people stealing their land.
I know if the Chinese invaded, you'd be johnny on the spot at the treaty table, right? "Yes, sir, we'd love to keep just a little bit of Los Angeles. Okay, how about Orange County? No, too close to LA for your security needs? Oh look, you blew up another innocent family on accident. Hey, no big deal... back to these peaceful negotiations..."
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So unilateral action and nation-building is ok when we use it to benefit the 'right' people?
Forcing unilateraly a free uncensored internet access into a nation is okay for me. There are no wrong or right people regarding this action. I am willing to see pro and anti-Mubarak benefiting from this, I am willing to see Talebans benefit from this, North koreans, and so on. There is no one I want to see blocked from internet.
Authoritarians dont overthrow dictators (Score:2, Insightful)
Or in other words: the problem isn't internet connectivity, the problem isn't dictators, the problem is governments.
The US government is better than a dictatorship, but only by degree. The US is not democracy: your vote in elections doesnt matter, and more importantly you have no voice in Congress, the executive, or the military. The US government is owned by the people who pay for it.
The solution isnt to get the government/military to protect the internet, it is to get the internet to overcome the need for
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It's always less risky to only attack people who are weak.
OTOH, in this age where we put (perhaps misplaced) value on "nation", that can often be the single thing that would reunite the people behind him. Attack from outside, real or staged, is a very old tactic to unite a nation. On 9/10, most people in the US knew Bush Jr. was a moron and was flying the economy into the ground (though they didn't yet know he had a penchant for thinki
Re:Hashtags don't overthrow dictators. (Score:5, Insightful)
Any support of people would be seen as US meddling. Under no circumstances should we say 'Yeah, this guy would be a nice leader', or supply any specific people support.
Providing internet and cell service probably would be okay, though. Pressuring Mubarak to step down would probably be okay too, as long as we aren't attempting to replace him. (Which, sadly, we are, with our very own torturer.)
We have threatened to cut off military aid if the military is used against protesters, which a) helps keep protesters from being killed,and b) keeps open the possibility of some sort of orderly transition under the military. No matter how much we dislike military coups, a military coup is nicer than one with violence against the military, and the military is amazingly professional and seems willing to make sure that democracy 'returns'. (Or, rather, shows up in fact and not just fiction.)
We cannot choose the people leading the middle east, period, and we need to stop. If we want middle east countries to like us, we have to, you know, do things they like.
Of course, the elephant in the room at this point is Israel.
Re:Imagine that... (Score:4, Funny)
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How exactly are backdoors going to work in countries in which the local dictator/dear leader/thug has pulled the plug on the internet?
The only kind of "internet bypass" I can think of is either by modem (with CIA-controlled modem banks as ISP I suppose), or packet radio if the dear leader cut telephone access too. Speaking as a ham, the latter isn't very likely to happen in countries undergoing a revolution methinks.
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Re:Imagine that... (Score:5, Insightful)
"may still has"
Ugh. Engrish fail. Need more caffeine.
English is a fault tolerant language, so don't sweat it. You can make all kinds of errors in English, and everyone will still understand what you meant to say, nonetheless. At a lab from my employer, in Austin, Texas, a guy from Taiwan was speaking English with a guy from India. Their English would have made my 7th grade English teacher commit Seppuku (aka, Harakiri), but they were able to communicate with it.
In my opinion this is why English is so dominant on the Internet: you don't need to know much to communicate. Unless some sesquipedalian like me starts using terms like obsequious and innocuous.
This is why dictators are scared of the Internet: Folks can get across what is going on in their country to a wide audience.
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Are you saying that grammar nazis have a language compiler with limited fault tolerance?
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Two-way communications are much harder, and can quite often require physical presence in the airspace of the defender.
Getting signals into Egypt is easy. Getting them out is hard.