Advocacy Group For the Blind Slams Google Apps 287
angry tapir writes "The National Federation of the Blind claims that Google Apps lacks required features for blind people and wants the US government to investigate whether schools that adopt the e-mail and collaboration suite run afoul of civil rights laws. The NFB is asking the US Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division to probe whether New York University and Northwestern University are discriminating against blind employees and students through their use of Google Apps' Education edition."
Disabled people (Score:4, Interesting)
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well it says it's Gmail etc... are they saying that sighted people are not allowed to use a superior product even though, last time I checked, you can use a pop or imap client with Gmail as I do. /var/spool/mail/myemail > /dev/espeak
I've been told their are even free ones and text only ones like elm or cat
or what-have you.. (I seem to remember festival or espeak or something along those lines producing a device for the job)
festival /var/spool/mail/myemail (with some args) may also work!
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I also think that Google does voice to text and TTS, well I've heard it's on voice and TTS on my mandroid, if only I could see where I've put it down.
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Re:Disabled people (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe your an astroturfer, since these are you only two comments.
Gmail supports imap, and their other products support many other standards. All of these standards are inter-operable with normal software the disabled use.
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Blind friendly photo viewing website ... fucking brilliant really, whats it do, read off the pixel colors pixel by pixel?
Re:Disabled people (Score:4, Informative)
I have a bit of a vision impairment, and I can tell you, it's hard for even partially sighted people to use Google tools. It pisses me off every time there's non-speaking text, and what the heck is up with gmail? Android still has major problems, too, with the web browser and e-mail not talking. It's not illegal to make tools that don't work well with screen readers, but no public institution should require people to use these tools.
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Google Docs, calendar, and several other products. Can't IMAP a Google Doc.
Re:Disabled people (Score:4, Interesting)
Google docs can surely be used with a browser designed for the blind. Calendar uses caldav, that again surely has client software that is blind friendly.
Re:Disabled people (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly my first though. The second thought would be is Google taking the basic steps necessary to ensure that their sites are compatible with standard screen-reader browsers for the blind.
I attended a lecture a while back on how to make applications and websites accessible to the blind. The text to speech requirements are on the client side, but they do require adherence to certain standards to work. That includes simple things such as naming all divider (div) tags, providing alt text for all images. There was some mention about certain JS/AJAX techniques being incompatible if not done correctly, though I don't recall the details.
The question then, which TFA does not address, is does Google take these necessary steps? Or is the problem that the current crop of screen readers are unable to process elements created using the JS methods Google employs?
I also wonder whether they actually brought the issue up with Google privately to address these concerns, or if they just jumped straight into the press release.
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The issue is not specifically with Google, even if TFHeadline is somewhat ambiguous.
They are suing workplaces/institutions that are not adapted to blind users. These entities are the ones that must chose the tools useful for such people. The only implication of Google in this would be if they (implicitly or explicitly) said that their app was compliant with those standards and it happens that it is not. And even in the app is compliant, it does not mean that there is a good setup for using the accessibility
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Wait, maybe I don't understand correctly, but are you saying that some disability "advocates" are saying that schools can't use headphones because that would mean fully-abled students can experience something that the disabled (deaf) can't?
While I support disability access where that wouldn't cost much more than standard access, it's not possible to provide the range of sensory experience to a disabled student that's available to a fully-abled student.
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Not only that but some schools use a single sign on for their gmail service, and you don't actually have a password to use should you want to use IMAP or POP. Stuck with the web interface, which brings in the ADA compliance stuff.
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that sounds like the schools problem, not google's google has ways/methods in place to handle these use cases. What percent of users need them? Not that i would like being left out, but sometimes these people seem to want some way for blind people to be able to become competitive shooters, or race car drivers, or fighter pilots, all of which really need you to use your vision and i start lumping them in with the crazies over at peta and greenpeace.
Re:Disabled people (Score:5, Informative)
that sounds like the schools problem, not google's
Hence the reason NFB has asked the DOJ to investigate New York University and Northwestern University.
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What distros have an espeak device? Or is it set up when you install festival?
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This proprietary software is free, or do you pay for it?
Have you considered offering the same amount of money to the open source people to add these features?
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This proprietary software is free, or do you pay for it?
Have you considered offering the same amount of money to the open source people to add these features?
I don't know about you but I don't think the cost of a license is going to cover a developer's time to implement such features.
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I would imagine if this advocacy group bought licenses for all its members that would cover it.
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I would imagine if this advocacy group bought licenses for all its members that would cover it.
What are you on about? This 'advocacy group' isn't buying licenses of anything for anyone.
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This proprietary software is free, or do you pay for it?
Have you considered offering the same amount of money to the open source people to add these features?
Have you considered that open source coders are not mainly motivated by money but rather "scratching their itch"? If an issue does not occur to the developer then they are likely to not tackle it.
Open source software known for creating good backend software but not front end UIs as usability is a specialized skill that few developers possess be they open source or not.
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Most larger projects would probably be happy to work with you to add something if you pay them for it, and allow them to be the unconditional owners of said product when it was done(so they can release and update the open source software in the future).
As for the UI usability, hire a consultant to work with the project. I'm betting most would be open to that as well.
Re:Disabled people (Score:5, Informative)
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Apple is also one of the big notable companies which has support for the disabled at the forefront of its products.
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Apple is also one of the big notable companies which has support for the disabled at the forefront of its products.
Unless you have limited vision, and require a very sharp contrast on the screen - like my father-in-law. He's been an Apple fan for as long as I've known him, but complains bitterly about MacOSX and dropshadows everywhere. You can't turn off dropshadows in MacOSX, apparently. He says it makes things very hard to see. Even to do basic thinks like locate the mouse pointer, because it's too "blobby".
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Your father-in-law might want to see if these help with some of OS X's odd "features":
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/12850/macpilot [macupdate.com]
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/5721/tinkertool [macupdate.com]
I don't know if any of these apps will help, but they both allow for the customization of OS X that Apple never intended. :)
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Open source produces the best command line oriented applications. There are several open source screen readers available. There's even a Braille terminal. What more do you want?
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"...but no one is interested adding such features."
The weakness of open-source is not that the developers have any less desire to support accessibility (I would guess that they have more), but rather that the nature of open-source sometimes means that the applications are less closely tied to a framework or OS that can easily provide those features.
After all, individual apps don't usually provide their own accessibility support, whether open-source or not - they must gain support for accessibility through t
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This is also problem with so many open source projects. They all forget about disabilities and blind people. I've tried to get them to support them, but no one is interested adding such features. That's what proprietary software has done a lot better - they actually do account for disabled and blind people too. It's a major obstacle with open source software, but for example Microsoft and other big companies have generally supported such features.
So what if google doesn't want to put in disablilty crap in their software. They shouldn't have to. Of course, they competitors do, so they will get the business, but then, thats what capitilism is all about?
I'm disabled, but i don't want to company doing shit for me because it has to. I want them to do it because they support the disabled, not because they are forced to.
If they want my business, they'd be smart to. If they don't, I go else where. It's simple and easy, and yet we have laws to force
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It sounds like the open source community is very.... ...short sighted.
harharhar
"They"? (Score:2)
Who is "they"?
Roll up your sleeves and pitch in or STFU.
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Isn't it because of money and laws? Opensource doesn't seem to have those for the teams to bother with. :/
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This is also problem with so many open source projects. They all forget about disabilities and blind people.
If it's open source, why couldn't people with said disabilities adapt it to their own unique needs?
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If it's open source, why couldn't people with said disabilities adapt it to their own unique needs?
simple. Because the act of writing code is one of the most handicap hostile acts in computer science. Pump your favorite language through a text-to-speech engine. What comes out is complete and total gibberish. It usually sounds like something the old gods would speak if they wanted to assure their own destruction. Since code is neither speakable nor listenable, how would a blind person or a person with an upper extremity disability write code? If it was easy, we would see at least an order of magnitude
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I've tried to get them to support them
The beauty of it being open source is that if someone feels strongly about this feature (like you), they can make the change themselves and offer the project a patch, or fork it.
Unless of course you aren't a developer and/or just want to use software, in that case you're boned.
Re:Disabled people (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope, you can pay someone to work on it in that case.
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Nope, you can pay someone to work on it in that case.
If you have the money.
Services for the blind and disabled are not exactly swimming in cash right now.
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Then maybe they can solicit volunteers. I am not swimming in cash either, so you don't see me demanding people tailer their FREE software to my needs.
I fail to see why someone who is already providing FREE software should be catering to your needs. Either do it yourself, or pay to have it done. Just like everything else in this life. Using proprietary software is just paying to have it done anyway. No free lunch or software customization.
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I fail to see why someone who is already providing FREE software should be catering to your needs.
They shouldn't, that's not the issue.
Using proprietary software is just paying to have it done anyway. No free lunch or software customization.
But proprietary software companies are targeting a market, and that market very often includes people with disabilities.
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Nope, you can pay someone to work on it in that case.
Nope? It said 'someone could make the change themselves', read it.
So now you're suggesting someone who wants a change funds the development process? That works in corporate environments, not end-user ones.
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The beauty of it being open source is that if someone feels strongly about this feature (like you), they can make the change themselves and offer the project a patch, or fork it.
Unless of course you aren't a developer and/or just want to use software, in that case you're boned.
Well, yeah. I'd say that in most cases if someone is providing you with software and the rights to adapt it to your own needs, the burden is and should be on you to adapt it to your own needs rather than them.
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Well, yeah. I'd say that in most cases if someone is providing you with software and the rights to adapt it to your own needs, the burden is and should be on you to adapt it to your own needs rather than them.
I'm not arguing that, just that it's not as easy as he makes out with the 'you can just do it yourself' attitude, because the vast majority of people can't.
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You're quite right. Instead they're a corrupt group of bastards taking money from Microsoft in return for attacking Microsoft's competition. Not astroturfers at all, but collaborators.
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These guys have been around since 1940,
And ISO used to be a widely respected standards organisation. What's your point?
Re:Disabled people (Score:4, Informative)
Why is it bloat to support disabled users in your application?
1. Red/green colour blindness is very common and is about choosing the right colour palette for your icons, etc. No bloat.
2. Adding keyboard accelerators to your menus and dialogs means that power users and people who predominantly use the keyboard over the mouse can be faster and more productive. Adding this is an extra '&' character per menu / dialog label string. Minimal bloat. There is also finger memory -- if you support something other than Ctrl+P for printing your users are going to make mistakes (Lotus notes is bad at this, using F5 (usually refresh or presentation on Windows) for log out!). Same goes for radio button group cycling, tab stops, etc.
3. Showing all text as text controls/elements helps when diagnosing problems (can be copied & pasted) and allows for better localisation support.
4. Adhering to colour schemes for background and text elements is useful for people who do not use white background/black text (e.g. having a black background to reduce screen glare). This is a matter of using the correct APIs when drawing special/custom elements. Minimal bloat.
5. Adhering to font sizes has benefits for people using high-DPI/HD displays or are projecting the display. This is a matter of using the correct APIs when drawing special UI.
6. Following the defined metrics on a system will mean that it should work at different DPI settings (e.g. 96DPI vs 120DPI on Windows), different themes (e.g. on GNOME and KDE desktops) and on touch-based devices such as tablets and phones where the hit-test area is important.
7. Adding a fallback alt="..." for images on web pages is not difficult and does not add that much bloat. It also means that if a user has a slow internet connection, they can disable images to reduce bandwidth and still understand the pages they are viewing.
8. By making your program/website accessibility aware means that it is also easier to automate the testing (i.e. through the acessibility APIs like MSAA/IAutomation2/UIAutomation on Windows and Gail on GNOME).
If you follow the Windows/GNOME/Qt/KDE/Web guidelines and use the standard provided controls you will get most of the accessibility for free. Also, more often than not accessibility support improves the application for other users as well.
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Unless I go for the least common denominator, that means one palette for the red-green colorblind, one for the blue-yellow colorbind, one monochrome, and one for those who have normal color vision. This is at least two palettes, maybe more -- red and green are far too useful to ignore for those who can see them. That doubles the user interface effort, though it probably doesn't significa
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Why would you think that? Do you have any particular problems, or do you just assume that Microsoft can't do anything right. Given Microsoft's history on developing software which could not rely on having a mouse, they had a natural tendency to allow for accessibility all the way back to 16 bit Windows. I will say that their latest changes in their accessibility subsystem made things a bit harder to use.
I haven't tried the Mac's features in this regard, but the iPhone was a mixed bag. Some apps are surprisi
What about tablets and touchscreen smart phones? (Score:2)
From the title I was initially thinking of Android apps since that's more in the news, but that made me think how it's going to be almost impossible for the blind or partially sighted to move to current touch screen technology.
Anyone know of any research in that field?
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iOS has many features for blind people - apparently it's one of the best machines out there to use.
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iOS has many features for blind people - apparently it's one of the best machines out there to use.
Yup. From the first "enable" to the last "write", although "show run" gets a bit boring through a text-to-speech device.
That's unfair (Score:3)
They've got it backwards (Score:3, Funny)
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That's new (Score:2)
I suppose the NFB's going rate is lower than your average anti-trust congressman's office.
Great savings for Microsoft. ;-)
Er... IMAP perhaps? (Score:2)
Google provides an IMAP gateway for all of its mail, including Google Apps.
These people can use any email client under the sun to access their mail, including the vaunted Outlook.
This whole thing seems like a money grab to me.
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Also before anyone comments the above also applies to Google Docs and Calendar. Google provides open access to *ALL* of it's apps.
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Yeah, the university does not allow access through those. It can only be accessed through the university's single sign in system, thus the reason why the universities are being sued, not google.
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Read TFS. They are not suing Google, they are suing the University or whatever.
Google Apps can be the most accessible system in the world. But if the University IT block the POP3 and SMTP port, or forbids attaching headphones or speakers to the computers, it does not help. So, they require the University to provide accessibility, then the University will chose the tools that suit them better to get that done (google apps or not).
accesibility standard: no javascript (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm currently working on a couple of government projects that must adhere to the latest accessibility standards, and they include this little doozy: no javascript.
Think about that. No javascript.
HTML was never designed for applications. We have javascript to get around this. No matter how sophisticated the "toolkit" or "framework", it's all still a stupid, ugly hack. But it works.
HTML alone though? Someone needs to pull these people aside and tell them that they've gone batshit insane.
Re:accesibility standard: no javascript (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want applications stop fucking doing them in a web browser. Write a real application. Otherwise use HTML to make a web page. If we could outlaw web 2.0 it would be wonderful.
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This. My kingdom for a mod point.
Been there, done that ... (Score:5, Informative)
I have worked with the NFB on projects before, and prior to that when I was contracting at IBM, I was the section 508 guy for my group. I have a decent bit of insight into accessible software development, and push for it's inclusion at my current workplace.
However, realize that the NFB is an advocacy group. They do not care about business needs, or the cost of adding support for screen readers to your application. They could care less that you need to spend 40% of the project costs retooling, or increase the work effort by 20%, in order to support approximately .3% of the population. They simply want it to work for them - as it should be, and the rest is your problem.
So, what's is that problem?
Well, businesses have roadblocks in realizing that providing accessibility standards for your software is a losing proposition - the NBT actively attempts to cloud this viewpoint or strike it down as morally objectionable. However, it is unlikely that the level of effort that goes into producing an accessible application or website will ever show any reasonable return. Additionally, as with all software, the later in the game is is added, the more expensive it is - so retooling an app is worse than the cost of folding it in from the beginning. So we're looking at a big expense with no return - low ROI.
Beyond all this, non-sighted or otherwise impaired individuals are already coping with non-accessible interfaces on a daily basis. They have specialty software that helps them cope with this, and in other cases, there are learned workarounds. Just like a Microsoft product user, they are conditioned to accept the failures, and while aggravating, they can usually accomplish their goals regardless.
So, what are my points?
1) Never agree to retool an existing app (though you can accept submissions)
2) While in the planning stages decide what level of accessibility support you're going to aim for. It's increasingly expensive, especially the QA side where there's a severe demand for accessibility testers. Make a rational cost-based analysis. Some things you get for free just by adhering to strict HTML standards (like providing alt text for your images AND LINKS, or properly labeling your tables with a summary attribute, and column descriptions) for webapps.
3) Don't ever sweat the compliance if it's hard to do at any one point - it's simply not financially worth it. Go for as much as you can. All the rich "web 2.0" features which make the difference between a sale or a miss don't translate well in the accessibility world. It won't help your product if it's accessible if no one is going to use it. Remember - unless the laws change, compliance is usually a 'good to have feature' - not a 'must have'. Prioritize it well.
4) Harsh though it may seem, you can rely on your disabled users to provide their own solutions. Your software is unlikely to be a required resource - worse comes to worse, they can always use something else willing to lose money by supporting specialty groups.
I don't see what the problem is (Score:2)
harharhar
A little skeptical (Score:2)
Looking at those Video, it seems that the problem is more to do with the functionality of the screen reader, which seems unsuited to interactive web apps. I suppose the only real way to avoid this is to have the functionality interface with desktop software that the user is used to. But Google actually does this remarkably well. Gmail can be accessed via IMAP and POP3, Docs can be shared easily via links and downloaded as in standard formats, you can use Google groups with plain old email and Google calenda
How about blind developers add this? (Score:2)
If it is open source, then let them add this functionality themselves.
there's nothing unreasonable about accessibility (Score:2)
Has anyone participating in this discussion actually done web design for accessibility? I've been looking at it for our course management system. It's not trivial, but it's also not difficult. In increases development time / cost, but probably not more than 10%. It's perfectly possible to design reasonable visual interfaces that work fine with common screen readers. A sighted user won't even be aware that it's been done. It's a combination of avoiding some standard pitfalls that a screen reader can't reason
Didn't they do this same thing to OpenDocument? (Score:2)
Re:Is blind people able to go on to slashdot? (Score:5, Funny)
Blind people designed Slashdot's look you insensitive clod.
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Blind people designed Slashdot's look you insensitive clod.
OMG! Ponies!
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What I think would be interesting is if a blind person were to put forth the effort to create applications friendly to blind people.
I'm trans, you know, the minority of people who are so small and misunderstood that we're not even allowed to have sob stories the way most minorities have, much less sob stories that high school kids are indoctrinated with (not saying it's a good thing, just stating a fact). Somehow trans people find ways of navigating a cis gendered world, often at great expense to themse
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> I don't see why the blind or any other group should escape that harshness.
They don't escape it.
That society and current law have some compassion for some groups could mean we're on our way to having compassion for more groups. The LG part of the LGBT world seems to be slowly gaining some acceptance, perhaps the T part will also increasingly benefit from societal attitude shifts.
And blind programmers do put forth effort to create applications, for sighted and not.
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I want to ask the following seemingly silly question, and you seem to be well informed about this;
Why is it LGBT? Is it coincidence that they are ordered from most to least societally acceptable? Why not alphabetical?
Also why L and G? Seems to me they are the same thing. The attraction to the same sex as opposed to the attraction to the opposite.
As old people die off I believe all of the above will gain more acceptance.
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I guess that for "trans" you meant transexual. My excuses if it means something else.
I'm trans, you know, the minority of people who are so small and misunderstood that we're not even allowed to have sob stories the way most minorities have, much less sob stories that high school kids are indoctrinated with (not saying it's a good thing, just stating a fact). Somehow trans people find ways of navigating a cis gendered world, often at great expense to themselves. I'd give up my sight any day to be cis gendered (better be careful what I wish for lol), so I guess I really have no sympathy for blind people despite their enormous hardships.
When you're in my minority, the world looks at you and says, "Figure it out on your own damned time at your own damned expense." When you're blind, the world looks at you and says, "Damn, that sucks. (And it does, having interacted with blind people on the bus, again, not saying it's a cake-walk just stating facts.) Here, have a government check every month. Here, have free care. Here, ride the bus for free. Here, have a free education. And if you don't get a job, don't worry, we'll keep sending you a check so you can eat."
Bullshit. You may be a trans, but that does not mean:
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Actually, according to the Americans with Disabilites Act [wikipedia.org], they are "violating your 'rights' should they fail to make accommodations for your demographic," if it's a place of public accomodation, educational facilities included.
I find it pretty ridiculous that minority groups act like they have a right to any convenient piece of technology that comes down the pipes being tailored to their particular needs.
Well, it's your right to think that way, but I'm sure you'd feel differently if you were blind, and your computer's screen-reader program was unable to parse important emails from your professor.
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if it's a place of public accomodation
Huh?
Well, it's your right to think that way, but I'm sure you'd feel differently if you were blind, and your computer's screen-reader program was unable to parse important emails from your professor.
Yes. The people affected do tend to have biased opinions (far more so than usual) on the matter more than not. What's your point?
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if it's a place of public accomodation
Huh?
I'm sorry, I guess I made a typo. I meant "accommodation".
What's your point?
I was providing an example for AC so that he may empathize with people dissimilar from him.
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I'm sorry, I guess I made a typo. I meant "accommodation".
Well, I meant to ask what that has to do with Google Apps.
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The universities in question switched their systems over to google apps, which does not provide suitable access for the blind, therefore, the universities are being sued over it under the Americans with Disabilites Act.
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if it's a place of public accomodation
Huh?
Well, it's your right to think that way, but I'm sure you'd feel differently if you were blind, and your computer's screen-reader program was unable to parse important emails from your professor.
Yes. The people affected do tend to have biased opinions (far more so than usual) on the matter more than not. What's your point?
I don't follow your reasoning... blind people is biased and non-blind people not?
Unless you can point me to an objective statement that you and me know to be truth (i.e. "God says blind people are so by His design and you must not help them to overcome their disabilities"), then there is no "fixed point" to claim that some opinion (the one you are against) is biased while your opinion is not biased.
To me, your post translates into: "I am not blind so I do not share the opinion most blind people have, so my
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I don't follow your reasoning
What I tried to convey was that the arguments of "if you were in this situation, you'd have a different opinion" are rather pointless. It is more likely that you will not be able to take an objective standpoint if you are in the situation yourself (not that anyone who is in the situation is wrong, but that's not the point). The fact that someone would change their opinion if they were put into the situation is essentially irrelevant and does not mean that what they were incorrect.
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It wouldn't be Google violating your rights in that case - it would be the organization providing "a place of public accommodation" etc using Google's software.
Coincidentally, that is why Microsoft and others have good accessibility support - not because they're required, but because they want to sell to public sector and various private businesses where ADA compliance is necessary. No compliance, no sale.
You miss the point. (Score:2)
If the government (in the form of publicly funded schools) requires you to use specific software then you can't just go and "spend your money elsewhere". You have to use that software, even though it is physically impossible for you to do so, and despite the fact that there are alternatives you could use if allowed. That is what the accusations of violating civil rights are about.
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If the government (in the form of publicly funded schools) requires you to use specific software then you can't just go and "spend your money elsewhere". You have to use that software, even though it is physically impossible for you to do so, and despite the fact that there are alternatives you could use if allowed. That is what the accusations of violating civil rights are about.
The government does not require specific software. They require the software to meet certain criteria. That is a very different meaning.
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No the allegation is that schools (aka the government) are requiring students/employees to use specific software as part of their job/class, and that this software isn't accessible.
ADA compliance is quite a bit more strict for government entities than it is for businesses.
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Let's say you came to work one day and all the stairs and elevators had been replaced with climbing ropes. You'd still be a perfectly competent WHATEVER_YOU_DO_FOR_A_LIVING, but you'd never be able to reach your third-floor office, and all because you can't climb thirty-foot ropes--boo hoo, you whiner!
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Remember, some of these blind folk may have been working, studying, and paying tuition there for years, and now everything's been changed, for maybe not much reason. "Clean out your desk, Perkins--a man who can't throw a javelin better than that has no business in sh
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are you kidding me? FOSS can't even come up with decent UIs for the sighted...
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Here at the college I work at, yes it is outsourced.
Students access it via a single sign on link from within our home grown SIS, and are redirected to gmail.
Students only have their password to the SIS - the pw for the actual gmail account (on a subdomain of my.educationalinstitution.edu) is not known, so even if the students knew they could use POP or IMAP to access it, they don't have a working password to access it with.
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Here at the college I work at, yes it is outsourced.
Students access it via a single sign on link from within our home grown SIS, and are redirected to gmail.
Students only have their password to the SIS - the pw for the actual gmail account (on a subdomain of my.educationalinstitution.edu) is not known, so even if the students knew they could use POP or IMAP to access it, they don't have a working password to access it with.
That is the fault of the college of course. There is nothing preventing the school from enabling POP access, and providing some password for login (either the SIS password, or some random password that can be seen in the SIS, and perhaps changes when the SIS password changes).
If the college does not want to put in the effort to do that then it can and should be sued for violating the ADA and/or equivalent state/local laws. Simple as that.
Re:GMail HTML version (Score:4, Interesting)
At least gmail have an HTML mode. But I think the problem is that we need better screenreaders more suitable to modern Internet.
Yes, we use Jaws at work. The accessability team came round last week to see how our video editing system was progressing with accessibility. We got critisised for a variety of reasons, the chief ones being:
1) it didn't work with IE7
2) The screen reader software (Jaws), presented hidden divs to the user
If I have a div with "style=display: hidden;", a display device should not display it.
Re: (Score:3)
A display device sure should have the option to display it. This is interpreted by a device you do not own, or do you think things like greasemonkey are evil?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Unless you're only into games and Photoshop, for most people computers are primarily a textual medium. The visual bits around it are just there to make the text more accessible, but you can can generally use computers without the eye candy. Most normal software can be easily navigated using only the keyboard, and there's software that reads the captions of windows and the text in controls.
But the web has been a great step backwards for blind people, and for no good reason other than that most of the people
Re: (Score:2)
so genuine discrimination is the kind that you yourself personally notice, or what? isn't being required to use a form of service which depends on a faculty one does not have, but is not intrinsic to the service itself, a form of discrimination?
it seems sort of like a continuum to me, and since you're not making a pure libertarian argument that private parties should be free to discriminate, i'm just wondering where you draw the line.
Re: (Score:2)
Read the laws yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990 [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADA_Amendments_Act_of_2008 [wikipedia.org]
It doesn't say "shouldn't expect limitations", it does say "can't be discriminated against", saying "I know this sounds very un-PC but damn, when you have a disability, deal with it, there are going to be some things closed off to you. You'll just have to do what you can." That's discrimination. Replace "you have a disability, deal with it with "you are black, dea
Re: (Score:2)
I don't understand. Are you saying people who are black shouldn't have to deal with whatever occurs in their life as a result? Before you answer - realise there are also black-only scholarships and black-only sports events, etc.
If you're saying there should be no consequence to being black, you're also saying that there should be no black-only scholarships. Unless you're saying "oh, no - only the 'bad' things are discrimination.. there's no such thing as reverse discrimination" which would just show you to