Microsoft Details Windows 8 for ARM 372
MrSeb writes "In an 8,000-word treatise, Steven Sinofksy himself has taken up pen and paper to describe Windows 8 on ARM (WOA) in great detail. There's a lot of good stuff in there, but one point is particularly troubling. Quoting Sinofsky: 'WOA does not support running, emulating, or porting existing x86/64 desktop apps. Code that uses only system or OS services from WinRT can be used within an app and distributed through the Windows Store for both WOA and x86/64. Consumers obtain all [WOA] software, including device drivers, through the Windows Store and Microsoft Update or Windows Update.' It's hard to under-emphasize just how huge a change that is. It's one thing to say that ARM CPUs won't support x86 emulation; something else entirely to split software delivery and installation. Up until now, one of the biggest differences between desktop and mobile operating systems has been the ability to install software. It's true that Microsoft's decision to wall off unapproved software installation is similar to the approach of Android and iOS — but iOS isn't the same thing as OS X. Combining both of these decisions under the 'Windows' brand could be disastrous, not because Microsoft is evil, but because it creates two entirely different user experiences on the basis of which ISA your CPU supports."
Please, (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Please, (Score:5, Funny)
Sorry, the Borg only operates on x86/64 machines
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Why? So far t his is just the ARM version. It sounds more like they just are going the cheap route, and not fulling integrating the ARM version with their Intel version.
Basically to my thinking:
A) Other Win8 versions have these features, then this is laziness. No borg icon warrented.
B) All Win8 versions lack these features (then why the big deal about the ARM version?), then this is a closing of the walls intentionally for a purpose. Borg icon deserved.
Re:Please, (Score:5, Funny)
...this is laziness. No borg icon warrented.
Maybe a slacker borg with an arm replaced by a bong: "Dude, where's my cube?"
Re:Please, (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? So far t his is just the ARM version. It sounds more like they just are going the cheap route, and not fulling integrating the ARM version with their Intel version.
Basically to my thinking: A) Other Win8 versions have these features, then this is laziness. No borg icon warrented. B) All Win8 versions lack these features (then why the big deal about the ARM version?), then this is a closing of the walls intentionally for a purpose. Borg icon deserved.
There is another possibility: Microsoft has massive legacy commitments. Practically all the world's boring corporate stuff that isn't old, specialized, or hip, enough to be running on some sort of intimidating big iron or linux/web/cloud/thingamawhatsit. Most of that software is absolute dreck, and rather boring, but much of it is also quite critical to a variety of high value operations and impossible or uneconomic to port or even modify very much. For this reason, Microsoft's walled-garden options on x86/64 are pretty minimal. Architecturally they could roll it out tomorrow(Software Restriction Policies are basically that, but under the control of your domain admin); but the customers that matter would scream like nobody's business.
However, since there isn't any legacy Windows software or legacy Windows device drivers, on ARM, since it has never run on ARM before, there is no legacy market to worry about. Microsoft has a free hand, more or less. As with the xbox, the other recent situation where MS started clean, without legacy impediments, they apparently see a walled garden as their best option.
It remains to be seen how long the momentum of more-or-less-open x86 IBM compatibles will carry them into the future; but so long as the legacy/in-house/custom demand is there, they'll be hard to kill entirely. However, I'd say that it is "outlook not so good" for open platforms any time somebody starts a new one from scratch...
Re:Please, (Score:5, Insightful)
They also have an entrenched open competitor: Android.
Windows on ARM is just Microsoft's PS/2 like attempt to recreate its monopoly on the new platform where all the excitement and momentum already is. It's not that Microsoft's existing Windows platform doesn't also have momentum, but that is already in a very long slow decline and Microsoft knows it. (I hope they know it, since the decline of PC sales and thus Windows sales was in their quarterly report.)
Re:Please, (Score:5, Interesting)
It remains to be seen how long the momentum of more-or-less-open x86 IBM compatibles will carry them into the future; but so long as the legacy/in-house/custom demand is there, they'll be hard to kill entirely. However, I'd say that it is "outlook not so good" for open platforms any time somebody starts a new one from scratch...
I don't think the in-house and custom software is going to save anything, because the large majority of new business applications have the application itself running in the data center and the users access it through a web interface. And legacy software is replaced by new stuff the more time passes.
But I don't think the future is as bleak as all that, for different reasons. The largest impetus for closed platforms comes from the wireless carriers who want to make sure you aren't doing anything as unscrupulous as making a VOIP phone call over WiFi without paying them for minutes, and who subsidize your phone and in so doing become the "customer" of the device who gets to decide how open it is.
Here's the thing: I expect that inside of five years, flip phones are going to be almost completely dead. Tomorrow's top end Android handsets will still be ~$500, but today's will be $50. Some handset maker who still has a tooled factory churning out "obsolete" phones will realize that with nothing more than a software patch, they can sell them retail as WiFi-only devices that still make phone calls and browse the 'net as long as you're at work, at home, at school or anywhere else that has WiFi. The poorest customers will quickly realize that $50 or $100 once is much less expensive than $50/month indefinitely, even if it means they can't make calls in their cars, and many will do that. The carriers will then realize they're getting $0/month from these customers and that if they offered a cheap bring-your-own-device plan, they could be making $20 or $30/month from customers who by and large don't actually tax the cellular network because they use WiFi 90% of the time, and a big chunk of those people will pay that so their phones will work in their cars etc. And so will a big chunk of the people who had been buying subsidized phones, who realize that $500 once + $30/month is a lot cheaper than $200 once + $100/month. (The savings for everyone comes from the fact that you're taking a massive load off of the cell towers and putting it on DSL and cable lines where adding bandwidth doesn't require outbidding everyone else for finite wireless spectrum.)
With any luck that will be the end of carrier device subsidies and with it the end of locked boot loaders etc. Even the carriers seem to be looking for a way out [slashdot.org] of subsidizing premium devices for most of their customers. But do that and you open the door back up for innovation: Once people no longer need carrier approval to sell Android and other Linux-based devices that work away from home, you have the possibility of things like the Spark tablet or whatever Canonical feels like producing start to take hold, which can easily be made to run both Android apps and Linux native apps, and you can see the possibility of an open platform gaining a sigificant foothold. Not to mention whatever products come out of Google buying Motorola Mobility.
If that happens then Microsoft will have to decide whether to go the Apple route and try to keep their ARM platform closed, or stick with their traditional forte and open it up. And I kind of feel like there isn't any room in the market for more than one Apple.
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I say no borg icon, because Microsoft is irrelevant.
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Technically, all of the world runs on linux and not sun - why the misleading? This actually hasn't changed very much - linux was always on the backend, and now it's simply surging for the end users too.
Suns' engineers have confirmed that android is not java [googleusercontent.com] - yet android and not ios is heading towards the largest marketshare in the world (see india custom tablet for example). Windows has been on a gigantic decline but has pushed hard to not have studies that mix mobile and desktop OS marketshare as windows
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Talking about Linux on desktop again, are we.
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Much like a chicken after the axe has fallen, the body is still temporarily alive but the brain is dead. Just give it a minute to catch up to reality.
The same could have easily been said of Apple in the 90s. I think we can all agree that chicken stitched a new and improved head back on.
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This is a feel sorry for Windows developers article not a Microsoft is screwing people article. Not to say Microsoft developers aren't people. When Microsoft's ARM products come out locked down to only allow Windows to be installed I'm sure /. will post that article with the borge icon.
Re:Please, (Score:4, Informative)
May we have the old Borg icon back for this story?
No, the old borg icon had the Bill Gates face, a guy that since then has saved millons of lives. He deserve a better icon.
Re:Please, (Score:4, Insightful)
While that may be true, he still got that money in incredibly shady ways.
His new efforts should be praised, but they don't necessarily erase what he's done in the past.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
there are other ARM options.. (Score:5, Interesting)
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/01/new-kde-tablet-to-liberate-linux-enthusiasts-from-walled-garden.ars [arstechnica.com]
Suddenly one of these is looking tempting for my tablet needs.
I did have an ASUS transformer for a few months but I sold it to a friend as I was unhappy with the way Android does things. I have an iPhone and whilst I think iOS is very clever I'm not convinced I would want it in a larger form factor. I want to be able to write code, play with software and be the master of my own system to a level that Android and iOS does not seem to happy with. I was wondering is an ARM Win8 tablet was the way forward - but this seems to rule of that option :(
I admit some Linux bias as I only use it at home and coding on it (armel linux) forms a large part of my job as well.
Re:there are other ARM options.. (Score:5, Funny)
So, Spark ships with Plasma Active pre-installed, which is nice.
Can't Plasma Active be installed on any number of tablets? I'm thinking of the RockBox / DD-WRT experience for tablets instead of Music players / Routers.
As for Win8 Arm gaining the walled garden "feature" of iOS... good luck with that. I'll write code for Win8 on Arm when I can do it using the Qt API.
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http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/01/new-kde-tablet-to-liberate-linux-enthusiasts-from-walled-garden.ars [arstechnica.com]
Suddenly one of these is looking tempting for my tablet needs.
I did have an ASUS transformer for a few months but I sold it to a friend as I was unhappy with the way Android does things.
As the owner of an Asus Transformer currently running Kubuntu, I find this somewhat ironic.
Obvious problem is the drivers (Score:4, Insightful)
It's scary that you have to get drivers through the windows store. That means you could never get some new arm hardware running with windows as a hobbyist or try some third party driver when the default crashes. It also means that it might be harder to upgrade windows on some devices as microsoft could block you from getting drivers for the current windows release.
The ARM port is truly a hardware lock-in. I hope it fails.
Re:Obvious *benefit* is the drivers (Score:5, Interesting)
Drivers are also the largest security hole there is - a kernel module has full and complete access to your system. People claim to be concerned about security, but then install third party drivers without a second thought.
Overall, it looks like Microsoft is doing exactly what people have been asking for - a more secure Windows environment. Locking down software to approved sources only, and getting rid of creakingly old APIs that date back to Windows 3.1, will make it faster, more stable, and more secure - but now people are complaining.
Note that for the hardware/software developers - hobbyist or professional - there will be a developer switch, to turn off security and allow you to load unsigned/unapproved programs and drivers.
User-mode drivers (Score:2)
Drivers are also the largest security hole there is - a kernel module has full and complete access to your system.
Then perhaps Microsoft should expand its own user-mode driver framework instead of running all drivers in kernel mode and monopolizing their distribution. At least under Linux, device classes with user-mode drivers include printers (CUPS), scanners (SANE), video (X), and even installable file systems (FUSE).
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> At least under Linux, device classes with user-mode drivers include printers (CUPS), scanners (SANE), video (X), and even installable file systems (FUSE).
Imagine that, most of this is also running in user-mode in Windows.
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Agreed. It is a light at the end of a tunnel playing the evil Windows start up jingle.
I've heard that before... (Score:2)
I've heard that phrase before, from MS. Last times they've said that, they couldn't release and the product flopped.
When is their release date again?
Fracturing (Score:5, Insightful)
Y'know, for all I hear about Linux being so fractured, I'd expect to see more coherence from Microsoft and Apple.
The vast majority of distros differ in small ways, but they all work with mostly the same paradigms. To install software, you usually install a package from a repository. To add something not in the repositories, it's usually "./configure; make; make install".
Looking at the Windows world, there's worse fracturing, but because it's all under one brand, it's somehow okay. Inter-process communication is done with DDE - no, wait - OLE. I mean sockets. Really .NET has its own IPC and you should use that now. On one system, you install with an executable file obtained from the vendor. On another system, you install through a storefront.
At least Linux accepts that it's fractured, and each distro often learns from the others.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Inter-process communication is done with DDE - no, wait - OLE. I mean sockets. Really .NET has its own IPC and you should use that now.
So should a UNIX program use pipes, X11 Inter-Client Exchange (basis for DCOP), Bonobo, or DBUS?
Chicken and Egg problem (Score:5, Insightful)
A "windows" platform that cannot run that software base is basically a new platform. Starting from scratch. Sort of like a new version of Linux, or Hurd, or something new.
Microsoft may port their own apps. Great. But what about third parties?
There is
Other apps may be wedded to legacy languages that may not get ported. Will Microsoft be porting Visual Basic 6? Visual FoxPro? What about Delphi? Etc.
Even if a developer can fairly trivially build their app for WOA, why would they if there is not a large user base on that platform ready to fork over money? The developer has to expend effort (eg cost) today on a platform where customer demand may not materialize. If WOA doesn't run an end user's favorite legacy applications, then why would the user want to migrate to WOA? It's cheap and easy to buy a desktop or laptop running legacy Windows that is familiar and runs your legacy apps.
WOA has a chicken and egg problem. Which came first? The large number of third party apps / developers supporting WOA? Or the large end user base running WOA?
Furthermore, a developer who expends effort to port their product to WOA, even if "porting" is little more than a trivial recompile and repackaging, and tracking new SKU's, that developer will want to be compensated for that additional effort. You can bet that developer will want top dollar (eg price gouging) for that new WOA edition of their product. Do you really think you'll see a $99 Photoshop on WOA? Also don't expect a free upgrade to the WOA edition of your current application.
WOA may be Microsoft's counterpart of the PS/2 moment. The market may "just say no" (as they say in the '80's). The problem with PS/2 was that it was nothing more than an attempt to recapture IBM's monopoly using a new platform. That is what WOA is. Microsoft wants their legacy monopoly on these new mobile ARM platforms, just as IBM wanted their legacy mainframe monopoly in the PC market.
Another problem is that these new platforms are fundamentally different. They bring things that legacy PC's don't have deeply baked into the system and applications. Android for example can support both the legacy keyboard / mouse setup as well as touchscreen and voice commands. Those pesky new PC's offered a lot more than a mainframe terminal had, such as mouse and GUI. Oh, and cheap software, just as the new platform app stores offer pretty cheap apps.
Want to see WOA go exactly nowhere? There's an app for that!
Base it on x64 (Score:2)
The only way OEMs who are making Windows 8 phones and tablets can save themselves - and in the process Microsoft as well - is build their phones around Fusion, Medfield and any other x86 compabible CPUs that anyone might make. That way, ISVs can at least make an attempt to allow their Wintel titles to be installed on tablets, and as far as phones go, ISVs might allow client sides of client-server apps to be supported on Windows 8 phones.
For instance, lets say a company has SharePoint running on its serve
Re: (Score:2)
The basic problem is that Microsoft has recognized that the world is, in fact, really, changing. But they have recognized it far, far too late.
Re: (Score:3)
Both iOS and Android are already entrenched. WOA is starting out with zilch third party software. Android has 200 million installed base and 700,000 activations per day (or 8.1 per second). WOA isn't even reality yet.
As others point out, what about drivers? How are you going to get third party device drivers for WOA? (Of course, in fairness, this question could be asked for Android and iOS as well. But I think expectations of an iOS /
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WOA has a chicken and egg problem. Which came first? The large number of third party apps / developers supporting WOA? Or the large end user base running WOA?
I think WOA is actually an attempt to avoid a future chicken-and-egg problem. As I said in another post, the current trend in computing is heading towards convergence of personal computing and mobile computing. No smartphones or smartphone-derived tablets currently have any real quantities of desktop-replacement apps. When the convergence comes, whichever OS has the most productivity software (as it was referred to way-back-when) will have a massive advantage.
In order for this to work, Microsoft don't ne
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No smartphones or smartphone-derived tablets currently have any real quantities of desktop-replacement apps.
I totally want to run Word on my phone.
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I already run google docs.
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Your point is well made about lack of significant numbers of desktop-replacement apps. But then, neither does WOA. If Microsoft is making developers have to re-think their app, their UI, and perhaps their development tools, and how they even get their product marketed and delivered to the consumer, then maybe those developers will recognize that they can equally re-think all
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If Microsoft is making developers have to re-think their app, their UI, and perhaps their development tools
The app and UI can be completely the same. WOA supports the Windows Explorer and thus the Desktop, so it's not always metro. You can application can look exactly as it does on x86. In terms of developer tools, I don't know. Many .Net developers might just be able to select the ARM compiler flag and go. There are a lot of apps that would instantly be available for WOA if this is the case.
and how they even get their product marketed and delivered to the consumer
They can market their product same as always. Distribution has to be through the Windows Store so that would be the only b
Don't see the big deal (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't like these new terms? Well then don't fucking buy it then. I fail to see the outrage here... Sounds exactly like the Apple walled garden approach.
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You don't like these new terms? Well then don't fucking buy it then.
So what should one buy instead of this product if Microsoft starts suing Android tablet makers for patent infringement?
Let it begin... (Score:5, Interesting)
Whenever the first tidbits of the UEFI secure boot cropped up that many people immediately cried foul over, I was one of the people who stood up and said "Not so fast, everyone - it's mandated that it be enabled by default, but there's nothing to say you can't customise it or disable it". Many people were quick to jump on MS, stating that it's just to stop Linux adoption and such and still I persisted in saying that MS wasn't the bad guy, if you didn't have an option to disable UEFI secure boot, it was the OEM or motherboard manufacturer at fault, not MS. I got into many heated debates about this point.
However, that was regarding Windows 8 x86/64.
Windows on ARM will demand that UEFI secure boot be enabled and that there is no way to disable it. Any Windows ARM tablets or PCs that come out will not be capable of running anything other than Windows - not Linux, not Android, nothing. Since Windows ARM won't be sold directly, it means there will be absolutely no way to buy a Windows ARM machine that runs other OS's - not even if you built one yourself.
It is with this that I retract any previous objections to people crying foul over the UEFI Secure boot malarkey. Even though Windows 8 x86/64 is still "fine", the issue of the ARM version is too great to ignore. So by all means, commence flaming.
Re: (Score:2)
vote with your cash.
I will.
honestly though I'm surprised they're even going to allow regular "desktop" and programs on the arm windows, I genuinely thought they would just go through shitty windows phone/zune type of system there to avoid fucking up the windows brand.
now back to installing virtualbox to run some legacy os to run some obscure modelling program..
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Sure, it's foul. It's Microsoft, what do you expect? However since this product is highly likely just to wither and die with a wimper I do not think the damage from Microsoft's latest insult to you, me and the rule of law will be extensive or long lasting.
Re: (Score:3)
The problem, which is what separates the ARM and x86/64 side of things, is that Microsoft allows the x86/64 vendors to do whatever they want as long as certain defaults are met, i.e. UEFI secure boot is enabled by default, but they don't say anything about disabling it or giving the user the option to. In that instance, you very much get a full working PC and if the OEM is nice enough, you'll be able to do whatever you like to the UEFI system - including disabling Secure Boot and inserting your own keys.
How
Software distribution (Score:2)
I have some serious issues with their software distribution method. I'm seriously considering boycotting Windows 8 entirely - unless forced to use it.
The new metro interface is useless for desktops and laptops, and the one area where it would shine - tablets - is going to be crippled from my perspective.
Simple solution for X86 apps (Score:3)
Install Windows/ARM on a RiscPC [wikipedia.org].
Acorn's machine had a 486 or 586 as a co-processor, so that RiscOS could host DOS apps running on their native processor.
Like NT/RISC before it... (Score:3)
Re:Like NT/RISC before it... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll predict that Windows 8 on ARM will simply kill Windows, since there will be no way for Joe Q Public (i.e. NOT your average /. reader) to tell which box will run their accumulated Windows apps, and which ones won't.
Why, it's easy: here's a desktop box, it can run all your crufty Win32 stuff written in 1998 like it ever did (but we gently encourage you to switch to the new apps which are oh so much more shiny). Here's a sleek tablet, now this runs Windows 8 "Tablet Edition" or whatever they'll call it, and you only install apps from the walled garden.
As to getting enough apps in the garden, it's hard to tell. There is already a growing marketplace of applications for Windows Phone, and that's reportedly going to converge with WinRT by Win8/WP8, becoming effectively a subset of the APIs available for the "big" Windows. I got a Nokia Lumia 800, and I was astonished to find high-quality apps provided by my bank, the local newspaper I read, and my IPTV provider. This being in Finland, perhaps they consider Nokia's large presence on the home market inevitable. But it shows that given enough confidence in the new platform, getting useful applications written for it is no big deal really.
Re:Like NT/RISC before it... (Score:4, Informative)
Why are uninformed FUD comments like this getting modded up? The blogpost clearly states that WOA devices will be unequivocally labelled to strongly distinguish them from traditional x86/64 devices.
WOA is not an attempt to replace Windows with a gimped version of itself. It's meant to be another member of the Windows family, like Windows Server, Windows Phone, etc., that extends the basic Windows paradigm to devices where it does not have significant market share. It is basically a rearchitected Windows CE that takes into account the rise of iOS.
iOS is derived from OSX, but you wouldn't expect to run an OSX application on iOS. So Joe Q Public is already primed to the idea that top-tier desktop applications won't run on WOA, and from reading the article, it seems that the marketing of the tablet devices will make that abundantly clear. Windows 8 Desktop is the successor to Windows 7 and WOA is something different, a competitor to iOS that has a Windows-esque look and feel.
Where WOA claims to have an advantage over iOS is, first, that it will allow users interact with the device with a traditional desktop paradigm, if they choose. Secondly, WOA apps, unlike iOS apps, will be also able to be run on your traditional desktop/laptop, making for a much more integrated total experience. And thirdly and most importantly, MS Office.
However, if the concept of being able to "up-run" your tablet apps on your desktop proves fruitful, there's no engineering reason why Apple couldn't do the same thing. And of course, once Apple did do it, suddenly up-running your apps would be the most awesomeish thing ever.
Re: (Score:2)
No, attempting to emulate x86 on RISC was a disaster.
I used to run Word on a 40MHz SPARC. It was not a problem.
CPU-intensive apps will suck in an emulator, but many desktop apps spend 99% of the time waiting for user input, so it doesn't matter if that app that uses 1% of the CPU on a 3GHz i5 requires 20% of the CPU on a 1GHz ARM.
Don't see the problem here (Score:2)
People don't buy an iPad expecting to be able to run Mac OS software (okay, some might), so it's just a matter for Microsoft's marketing division to come up with a brand that identifies WOA as being related to Windows but not quite the same thing. That's their problem though.
There'll always be an x86 Windows that can run x86 software. The introduction of a separate branch of Windows doesn't change that.
I DO see the problem here (Score:3)
I'm not holding funeral services for the PC just yet.
Eventually the traditional PC will be gone. Not that we won't have comfortable workstations with big screens, keyboard and a mouse. It's just that the platform, and especially its OS will be different. And that screen will be a touchscreen. And it will also have voice recognition.
In particular, look at those graphs in the article. They tell quite a story. Consider that
Re: (Score:2)
iPad is not called MacBook. People will read Tablet with Windows 8 for ARM and will think perfectly a Windows version I can run on my arm an not on my desktop, now I can run all my applications on the move with a trendy tablet. Do you plan to train all those people in what is a microprocessor architecture and why one can not run applications for the other ones. MS should use another or fail, If the XBox was called Windows Gaming Console it could have failed
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Some steps toward the mass-market ARM desktop are being taken. First, stick out your tongue, close your lips gently over it, and blow. Second, load this page [ytmnd.com] and sing along. You just made a raspberry and sang an approximation of pi [wikipedia.org].
But more seriously, as Google TV and Android merge, there won't really be a difference between a "smart TV" and an ARM powered all-in-one PC.
This is micsoroft iOS. (Score:4)
The difference between Win8-ARM on a device/appliance is to Windows on a laptop/desktop what iOS on an iPad is to MacOS on a macintosh laptop. All this talk about walled gardens aside, I can see the point of having a very protected environment for computers that are appliances more related to my toaster than they are to my old desktop computer. I don't want to care about device drivers when Win8 runs in my TV, phone or tablet. It must just work, even if it means I can't install my old applications. If I want a computer where I can do anything I want, I get a computer. In this case that happens to mean my computer has to be x86 and my appliances have to be ARM. So be it. It almost certainly was going to be that way for the foreseeable future anyway.
I can't really blame microsoft for making this decision. They don't want to wall in windows users, they want to win over some iOS users with iPad. Maybe on Win9 or Win10 we'll do all our computing in the walled garden. But lets cross that bridge when we get ther.
Android has an OOM killer (Score:2)
Except for you'll still havehave the 256MB+ hulking-gorilla of a kernel
I thought WinRT had been made smaller than that.
Oh yeah, and we've disabled being able to close programs.
Why should one need to close a program instead of relying on an OOM killer like Android's [android.com]? First, processes with no visible windows and no "services" (background tasks that have registered themselves to handle requests from other apps or the system) go. Then those with services go.
Ah, (Score:3)
So it's Windows CE then?
Thanks for the clarification but I'd suspected that all along. Windows is only "Windows" on your PC. No change at all, to anything, then.
Windows 8 & Unity (Score:3)
I could be wrong, but the preview shot I saw of Windows 8 with the missing "start" button makes it look like Microsoft is trying to do the same thing as Canonical.
I'm guessing neither org wants to look like it has the same old frumpy desktop.
If that doesn't work, Canonical is only 1 6 month release away from going back to something more PC and keyboard friendly. Microsoft on the other hand will have a much harder mess to clean up from.
The War on General Purpose Computing (Score:2)
This is part of an emerging pattern in which consumers are sold restricted systems with enforced toll collection. Cory Doctorow refers to this as "the coming war on general-purpose computing" [boingboing.net]. His analysis is thought provoking. It is disheartening to consider how may technologies with security benefits can also be used to restrict the rights of customers.
well you can't go to far as lot's of old software (Score:2)
well you can't go to far as lot's of old software is still out there and locked down app stores may end up with 1st amendment issues.
Now it's on thing to lock down carp apps that just crash all the time but it's a other to do content bans.
Also there may need to be more then 1 app store / a 100% free for dev's way to push out free app's.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong... (Score:4, Insightful)
But if you develop your apps in WinRT, the same code will be able to compile into ARM or x86. I don't see a big deal, honestly. It's not like it will take developers extra work, since .NET and the JIT compiler should handle that workload. In fact, it makes Windows a more appealing development environment because you're hitting multiple platforms, form factors, etc... all with a single set of code.
But correct me if I misread.
how is this different (Score:2)
WOA will likely be for iPad knockoffs and the like. MS is just making a "AppStore" for those types of users. Heck Win 8 will have access to the "AppStore" on windows 8 as well making it an identical experience as the appstore on the OS X Lion. MS is really really trying to push apps so they can catch up to Apple on cool factor, can skim a percentage of everything and can have all the joy of being a gatekeeper for the platform. Their trying to make the arguement "why wouldn't you target WinRT and get everyon
under-emphasize? You mean it's not important? (Score:2)
It's hard to under-emphasize just how huge a change that is.
This literally means it's difficult to describe this change to make it sound less important than it actually is.
I believe you mean the opposite, that it's hard to over-emphasise (ie: make it sound more important than it is; because it's so important)
Why Go ARM when there is Medfield? (Score:5, Informative)
I am failing to see why anyone would get an WOA tablet.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5365/intels-medfield-atom-z2460-arrive-for-smartphones [anandtech.com]
Summary Medfield is running in similar power envelope to an ARM SoC, but with faster benchmarks.
ARM might get you marginally more battery life, but Medfield gives you full backward compatibility.
WOA is the Windows "Kindle Fire" consumption tab (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyone who's been paying attention realizes that MSFT was engaging it's traditional Apple-envy by trying to create a MSFT iOS tablet experience (we create, you consume and buy) with WOA. Despite (at least on boot) laying Metro on both, REAL Windows (x86) is very different and can be used to do creative tasks.
MSFT wants what Apple has:
APPLE: OS/X on x86 (general purpose computers) to create apps for ARM iOS (device OS) phones and tabs
MSFT: Win on x86 to (general purpose computers) create apps for ARM Win8 (device OS) tabs (phones later)
The money is in the consumption devices, so you focus on making sure the general purpose devices (computers running a real OS) have the tools to rapidly build app product for the devices.
Imagining the ARM ver of Windows be a thriving creative equal of x86 is typical Slashdot wishful thinking. A new, CHEAP fast, open platform that doesn't drive additional revenue isn't in any major player's interest and isn't going to happen.
You've got amazingly cheap and powerful x86 architecture that acquired a gigantic open ecosystem in spite of what the big players have wanted. Appreciate and protect this anomaly while you can.
Re:Why is this relevant? (Score:5, Insightful)
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The new, more identifiable 800 & 900 models aren't even for sale yet...
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The 800 has been on sale in Nokia's strongest smartphone markets since november. The 900 is the exact same phone with a larger screen and FFC. It will change nothing.
Zune. (Score:2)
Zune.
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You are wrong sir. There are Windows fanboys who will use Windows on ARM because, of, um, er..., well, because it is from Microsoft! That's why!
But seriously, see my Chicken and Egg post I wrote a few minutes ago here. I agree. WOA is not going anywhere. Nobody will use it.
Hint: it's the third party apps! Lots of very important legacy business applications are written in languages, tools
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Hint: it's the third party apps! Lots of very important legacy business applications are written in languages, tools and technologies that may never be ported to WOA. For example, do you expect Visual Basic 6, Visual FoxPro or Delphi to be on WOA?
No VB 6 & FP emulator on WOA? That's gotta be a deal breaker for some of us.
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Don't know if you're being sarcastic. It is a deal breaker for some. While VB6, VFP etc may not be sexy, a lot of legacy software are written in those.
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A hybrid device, like an Asus Transformer, that allows me to run a full version of Office that works well with a mouse and keyboard on a portable device that has the media consumption abilities I use a tablet for (video, music, books, comics) and has battery sufficient for 8 to 12 hours use? Yes, please.
It remains to be seen if MS and the hardware providers can deliver that, but there are significant professional use cases for such a device, in addition to the obvious consumer ones. Especially if document f
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Platforms like Android and iOS, which are already entrenched (and have actual devices today like the Asus Transformer), are suddenly at a huge competitive advantage in attracting third party developers. If Microsoft is making you re-think your application for WOA, then why not also re-think it for Android / iOS which already
Re:Why is this relevant? (Score:5, Interesting)
No to AutoCAD and Maya, probably no to full versions of ACS (but maybe a lighter suite). If this works for Microsoft, I think it will work like this: some people who want to travel light but want full Office productivity will buy WOA devices. This popularity will spur app development, including some enterprise integration. Developers will start releasing more apps for Win8 (which, remember, will also work on new Intel/AMD Win8 machines, so there will quickly be a large installed base).
Android and iOs have had years to get a decent office app out; they haven't done it yet. And a big part of this is good mouse/keyboard interface - drag and drop, mouse-click-popup menus, consistent highlighting/copy/paste, etc. So if MS gets a 12 month lead on real Office software, it might overcome the iOs/Android head start for a certain class of users.
Note the "If" at the start of my speculation. I don't know if this will happen, but it seems more than just possible.
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Re:More! (Score:4, Insightful)
He wasn't saying that Microsoft isn't evil, only that their evilness or lack thereof is irrelevant to the point he is currently trying to make.
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WOA is starting out as the new guy on the block with no software base. How much third party software will be available for WOA? How much legacy software will be available? The entire value proposition of Windows is the huge important legacy software base it runs. (I don't mean games. I mean business applications.) W
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Android doesn't have Microsoft's office suite. Those Android activations are mainly for smartphones and not tablets. So Android is beating WP7 for certain.
And Kindle Fire (Score:2)
Those Android activations are mainly for smartphones and not tablets.
Shouldn't you be including Kindle Fire tablets in your tally, even if they can't run Market-exclusive applications? Or by "activations" should one read only "cellular activations"?
Re:Well (Score:5, Interesting)
At some point (Windows 9? Windows 10??) Microsoft is going to need to leave older applications behind to fully transition to the 'Metro' platform/paradigm. This probably will include the desktop
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
That is why I believe WOA will fail.
Leaving the legacy applications behind means WOA is a new platform. Starting basically from scratch. Competing with already entrenched players (iOS and Android). It starts off with little third party software where iOS and Android already have a huge base of developers.
Re:Well (Score:5, Informative)
For the people that absolutely cannot live without legacy Win32 code, there will be x86 devices in similar form factors as the ARM devices. There was a whole pile of them unveiled at CES this year.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
It's possible that this is the first step toward leaving 'Windows legacy applications' behind. They are going to have to do it sometime, and ARM isn't similar to x86 like Atom is, so this may be a logical starting point.
Exactly. It's legacy software that's tied mainstream computing to the x86 architecture for two decades. Tthe x86 is a power-hungry architecture best suited for desktop and rack computing, but recent trends are towards mobile computing. Laptops started to outsell desktops. Netbooks hit the market. Smartphones reached a level where they could be used as complete computers. And the Tablet PC concept, which had been bubbling under for over a decade, finally found it's niche as a "maxi-smartphone". x86 is dead, and MS need to encourage people to produce standardised, architecture-neutral code if they're going to migrate to another architecture.
If they don't migrate to another architecture, what happens? Smartphones with HDMI out (and a built-in focus-free laset picoprojector) and Bluetooth or USB for keyboards and mice displace the traditional computer. If Windows is still split between phone and desktop, Windows dies.
So why the separation between desktop and phone OS? Why WOA an not just maintain their ARM version as Windows Phone? Because right now, phone apps are phone apps, and desktop apps are desktop apps. An OS lives and dies on its third party software, and this move is calculated to ensure that there is a back catalogue of desktop software available when the two paradigms merge.
It's a smart move, and shows a lot of foresight. Google should take note, and start working on standardised compatibility layers that encourage Linux app developers to produce software that can be easily migrated to Android.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. It's legacy software that's tied mainstream computing to the x86 architecture for two decades.
It's legacy software that's tied people to Windows for two decades. Break the compatibility and no-one needs Windows any more.
Re:Well (Score:5, Insightful)
It's API compatible minus features not physically available on a tablet. A quick recompile and voila, instant port.
You're not a software developer, are you? Because I wouldn't want to work with someone who thinks that they can just do a 'quick recompile' and ship a product out the door.
And, in any case, that wouldn't help the bazillions of old, unsupported Windows programs that keep people tied to Windows.
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Point is all Debian apps - everything in the Debian collection - is FOSS, or in other words, the source code is already there. So of course, it'll be an identical experience. Let's say you use Debian on your ARM PC, and you happen to get hold of a SunBlade 150 workstation. Guess what - you can install the Sparc version of Debian, then all the apps you were running on your PC to the unixstation, and you're off to the races. Since all the source code is w/ you.
Not the case w/ Windows, as WrongSizeGlass
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There hasn't been as big a legacy apps issue w/ Macs the way there has been w/ Windows, probably due to the fact that Apple has undergone some major transitions in the same time that Wintel apps have just been accumulating. First they had 68k -> PPC, then they had MacOS -> OS-X, then they had PPC -> x64. Also, the people who came to the iPhone and iPad were not necessarily Mac users - I'll doubt that even the majority are - but came from other places. I can easily see that people who were users
Point of no return (Score:4, Interesting)
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They'll just rename them and you won't realise that Windows Generations is actually Windows 10.
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They never had much of a clue about marketing either. Remember their MSN marketing campaign about people running around in blue butterfly suits?
.NET Framework and .NET Passport (Score:3)
Microsoft has never had a clue about branding. Look at .NET, they stuck that meaningless label on everything from IDEs to websites to chat clients.
Really there were only two things that were ever called .NET: the .NET Framework and .NET Passport authentication. The ".NET" IDEs were IDEs supporting the CLR languages that work with the .NET Framework. The ".NET" web sites and chat client supported Passport and have since been renamed to "Windows Live".
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This is not much different than what Apple is doing.
Technically no, but Apple is making a clear distinctions: iOS is not OS X. The two share the same parent code base but are intended for different platforms with different APIs. With MS, everything must be "Windows" regardless of differences. This is likely to create mass consumer confusion. "But I bought this application for my PC, why doesn't it work on my Windows tablet? It says compatible with Windows 8."