Can Windows 8 Succeed In a Cloud-Based World? 213
New submitter Nerval's Lobster writes "To say that Microsoft has a lot riding on Windows 8 is a bit of an understatement. The upcoming OS needs to prove that Windows can stay relevant in a world where desktop-based programs are increasingly giving way to cloud apps, and mobile devices are eclipsing PCs as the center of people's computing lives. Can Windows 8 succeed in that mission? The real answer will have to wait, but in the meantime I've laid out some potential success-or-failure factors over at SlashCloud."
I challenge! (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'd also throw in that for computing privacy, desktop-based software still leads the way. Web traffic is data mined and sold as is the personal data we put out there on the net. But I can still edit a photo on my desktop in private.
Re:I challenge! (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Cloud based systems are a cachet that finds itself most useful for people who are highly mobile, even a low range laptop or netbook these days has vastly more computing power than is needed to operate every application most people might need. Data storage on USB drives and other mini systems are also well capable of absorbing a lot more data than most people produce. I mean any computer capable of playing a modern computer game can do almost any other task with ease, and cloud computing isn't useful for most of those other tasks.
The "cloud" is being heavily promoted for a variety of fairly obvious reasons, but to me its a solution looking for a problem, with as much value as thin client systems have.
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I would say it is not even a solution looking for a problem.. it is an old solution solving the same problems it did before, only rebranded and getting a lot more attention by consumers. Once the type settles down, I am guessing, not much will change. Use cases that lend themselves to this type of client/server system will continue to use them, while use cases that lend themselves to local computing will continue to use them.
Christ. Does this mean we will have to go though all of this again? Maybe by that time I'll be senile enough to not notice.
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Given that you can take your virtual desktop offline and on the road with you I'm not so sure it'll swing back. From a corporate perspective it's a no brainer. When you abstract the work from the hardware a lot of options that never existed before gain traction. My favorite example is fully 3d capable Autocad running on an iPad. I hate the iPad but it's pretty cool to take the tablet to the meeting, mark-up your changes, then connect to your virtual desktop from your workstation and continue where you left
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He's always got his desktop with fast local access to network resources
The key word here is local resources. That's where the cloud tends to fall down, especially for the sorts of live action personal productivity apps that are common in the workplace. This category would include general office productivity (document editor, spreadsheet, presentation builder, etc), engineering and drafting (AutoCAD et al), video editing and graphics (Adobe Suite), or software development (Eclipse, Visual Studio, X-Code, etc). The losses as cloud apps lag and try to keep up are especially notic
Re:I challenge! (Score:4, Interesting)
*some* desktop applications are going cloud ish, especially things that can be done on the web, and new technologies (that are mostly built from the ground up to be web products) are OS independent.
And sure, for those solutions windows is no better and no worse than its competitors. Even if that becomes 99% of computer use time. It's still the rest of the time that is the differentiating factor that Windows competes in. To give an extreme contrived example: imagine 99% of my computer use can be done in a webbrowser, in the cloud. the other 1% is diablo 3. Now, I can run diablo 3 on mac or windows and linux. If I just spent 600 or 700 dollars in computing hardware 'extra' to play diablo 3 am I going to now avoid spending another 100 or so on an operating system if that makes it perform better? That's where windows has to compete. They have to do all of the stuff you can't do in the cloud better than everyone else. Better can mean a lot of different things to different people of course.
Admittedly, the question sort of implies a connection with Office and Windows, which is fair enough, if not all that clear in the summary. How office will survive, when there are cloud document systems that are much more reliable than traditional office on a desktop ever can be might be fair question, but that's why windows 8 is integrating skydrive and all that stuff, and office is as well.
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Back in the pre-Web Days. We bought PC's and we ran important business software on them. These software for the most part did the following...
There is a form you needed to fill out, based on you answers it would bring you do a different form, and at some point save the data... These apps were the majority of the apps. These are now pushed to Web based interfaces, because you are wasting your time trying to deploy across many systems, having a shared location, or open the firewall more so you can access th
What's a "cloud-based world"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like bullshit world to me...
Tell you what: the "cloud" hype will come crashing down the minute some big company that invested massively in off-site services and storage loses internet connection for a few hours...
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Big companies make private clouds for their mission critical server needs. Public cloud services are for, well, the public and their consumer level devices.
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Those are called datacenters. Yep, big companies are using them for a long, long time. They also like to keep their private cloud local, to not depend on internet conectivity.
Re:What's a "cloud-based world"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Even a "private cloud" can cause troubles.
I used to work for a place with manufacturing facilities in Oregon and California. All of production (stupidly) relied on a BI cluster located in OR. In spite of numerous demands to have it made redundant, the dumbass IT head insisted that dual connections (through two differing carriers) would supply sufficient redundancy.
What he didn't count on was a (IMHO drunk) CAL-TRANS worker accidentally digging up a few fibers, which in turn knocked all of Ventura County into the dark for almost a day - including both carriers. When that went down, so did production. 17+ hours at ~$4500/minute downtime gets awful expensive. A backup/replicated cluster at the CA site would have only cost about 3-4 hours of that time at most, but would have saved them a whole lot more.
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In fairness, people said the exact same thing about outsourcing of things like your IT infrastructure.
There's loads of companies that farm out their storage and a few other things like that.
That doom and gloom didn't come true either.
Companies are more interested in saving money than incurring a small amount of downtime (depe
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The whole 'cloud computing' thing seems to me to depend on three things: First, do you trust that the server(s) for your apps are going to have both 100% uptime and 100% connectivity, second, do you trust that your data is going to be secure both stored in the cloud and in transit to/from the app server(s), and third, what is the cost of moving your data between cloud storage, the app servers, and your local machines compared with having both the data and apps local?
Now, I can see where cloud computing coul
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I think the 'will the cloud guarantee 100% uptime for your apps' thing is a bit of a red herring. I can't guarantee 100% even if it's inhouse. Though, obviously, I know the failure modes a bit more.
I think there's a huge subset of IT departments out there that are not as technically skilled as {Amazon,Google,Azure,etc.}. For them, they won't worry about this part as much.
Granted, there are a lot of other things to worry about once your data hits "the cloud" but for uptime only, I'd trust a Google engineer m
Re:What's a "cloud-based world"? (Score:4, Interesting)
That is completely wrong. The server owner has as much claim on the data on the servers as you do - specifically, none. In the event of a liquidation sale, the liquidator would wipe the drives, and if they fail to do so, releasing confidential info from the drives is a criminal offense. Absolutely not "free and clear" and definitely not "public domain".
Re:What's a "cloud-based world"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds like bullshit world to me...
Tell you what: the "cloud" hype will come crashing down the minute some big company that invested massively in off-site services and storage loses internet connection for a few hours...
For some reason, I'm not seeing Windows8 to be oriented towards business. I'm sure MS will try to force it, but I just don't see that tablet interface running on a typical workstation and certainly not a server.
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I give you Windows 8 Server.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/windows-server/v8-default.aspx [microsoft.com]
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I give you Windows 8 Server.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/windows-server/v8-default.aspx [microsoft.com]
I really hope it doesn't have that tablet interface. There were no desktop screenshots in the videos I saw. The last thing I need is to work in an office administered by an sysadmin that needs a touchscreen to do his job.
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Agreed.
mobile devices are eclipsing PCs as the center of people's computing lives
"eclipsing"? Oh please. Quick poll: How many of you are posting your comments from a smartphone, tablet?
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Where mobile devices like phones and tablets shine is during a commute on a train or bus. How true it is I don't know, but I heard that in Japan many people just don't have a home computer or laptop, since they spend so much time commuting. In most western countries driving is a lot more common, to and from work and home, both of which have more useful machines available.
This is of course the weakness of mass consumer cloud adoption - if you have a machine capable of doing useful work, you already have a ma
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> What's a "cloud-based world"?
Bespin?
What does that even mean? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Cloud-based world"? Did the marketing team write that up?
Anyway, Windows 8 will do just fine, especially because Microsoft is falling all over itself trying to be tablet-friendly and all of the other bollocks that'll generally make it a pain in the ass.
But, as in many things related to the traditional desktop PC, the reports of its demise have been greatly exaggerated.
On a related note, Windows 8 will be just as relevant to the business market as they ever were once you disable the terrible new UI, and that's all that matters anyway (whether businesses choose to skip Windows 8 in favor of waiting for the next iteration is another possibility, but unrelated to all the tablet nonsense).
Re:What does that even mean? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the business market will largely skip Windows 8 like it did Vista. It's more likely Windows 8 will be akin to a botched beta to try new features (IE: Metro) and see how the market reacts - similar to how Vista was. Then Windows 9 (like Windows 7) will take the good and strip out the bad from its predecessor and be the next Big Thing like Windows 7 was. It's not the first time MS has launched a product that will likely fail just so they can use the data to make the following product a blockbuster.
Re:What does that even mean? (Score:5, Informative)
I would tend to agree ... but not because they're "avoiding" it (though that might be the case), but because people are really still in the middle of deploying Win 7.
Where I work, rolling out Win 7 has been in the planning stage for well over a year. We're going to start rolling it out fairly soon to users.
Which means at an enterprise level, Vista got skipped because people were waiting for it to get sorted out. Win 7 is ramping up, but not everybody has gotten there yet. And all of the organizations who are just in the middle of putting out Win 7 will end up skipping Win 8 because Win 9 (or whatever) will be out by the time they're ready to change anyway.
The reality is, corporate stuff happens on a *long* timeline, and it isn't something you can change direction mid-stream on.
Though, for my own personal machine (which is also due for an upgrade), I will likely opt for Win 7 because Win 8 is a fresh steaming release which I don't trust. (Actually, I don't thin it's fully out yet anyway.)
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>>>Then Windows 9 (like Windows 7) will take the good and strip out the bad from its predecessor and be the next Big Thing like Windows 7 was
So it's the Star Trek effect. Only odd-numbered ones are good: NT 3, 5 (XP), 7, and 9.
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Windows 2000 falls under "NT 5" so the claim still holds :)
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I just wonder, why isn't it the development model for Microsoft anyway? As I recall, there was always the iteration between a "beta" Windows and the "stable" Windows. Win 3.11 (stable), then Win 95 (beta), Win Mil (beta), and then Windows 2000, Windows XP (stable), then Vista (beta), then Windows 7 (stable).
Ubuntu's model would be much better for Microsoft and the businesses that rely on Windows. Two versions of "beta" or "experimental" versions, then one LTS version. The first version is like a "vision" t
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Anyway, Windows 8 will do just fine, especially because Microsoft is falling all over itself trying to be tablet-friendly and all of the other bollocks that'll generally make it a pain in the ass.
After trying the Win8 customer preview, I think it *won't* do 'just fine', precisely because they are *trying* to be tablet-friendly with a horridly awkward UI concept for desktop. Hell, I don't see how pure touch even works particularly well with Metro.
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Windows 8 will be just as relevant to the business market as they ever were once you disable the terrible new UI, and that's all that matters anyway (whether businesses choose to skip Windows 8 in favor of waiting for the next iteration is another possibility, but unrelated to all the tablet nonsense).
Atleast in the consumer preview, there is no way to disable metro, there is no start menu to fallback to..
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Windows 8 will be just as relevant to the business market as they ever were once you disable the terrible new UI, and that's all that matters anyway (whether businesses choose to skip Windows 8 in favor of waiting for the next iteration is another possibility, but unrelated to all the tablet nonsense).
Atleast in the consumer preview, there is no way to disable metro, there is no start menu to fallback to..
Until Microsoft gets their act together, I'd suggest this as a fix for the problem: http://sourceforge.net/projects/classicshell/files/ [sourceforge.net]
Enough of this cloud BS (Score:5, Informative)
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Likewise phones. Even what I would call the baseline in computing tasks, word processing (typing words and seeing them appear on screen) is basically impossible on a phone.
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'The cloud' as MS imagines and Windows 8 facilitates is, however, MS' wet dream.... if they can win. Suddenly, not only does MS have a monopoly on your application platform, they get a monopoly on the data you manage with it. Suddenly they not only have more stuff to mine for revenue, but in addition to worrying about if you can find a calendar app in a competing OS that can manage your schedule, now your schedule itself is stuck in MS servers.
I doubt it will flame out though. I think it should fail in m
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Sorry, but I can't get any coding done on anything without a physical keyboard. My current Android tablet is awesome to have around, but it's not a "workstation" by any stretch. Even my smallest laptop is infinitely more productive. Part of it is architecture (x86/x64 vs ARM), most of it is interface and applications. No, not "apps", those are useless for production because they're limited by physical interface -- no one's going to do any serious coding on a touch-based thumb keyboard.
'Real work' is not the exclusive domain of workstations.
It will be until ta
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Do you think coding is the gold standard for what is considered "real work"? LOL.
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In terms of form factor, most any 'real work' is unsuitable for a tablet or phone device. Among the people who do indeed use it for 'real' work, probably more than half do it out of blind zealous devotion to the device rather than of practical considerations. If you have to do any significant amount of text/data entry, you are doing yourself a disservice by using touchscreen-only devices. Also, fitting your work into sub-10-inch display territory when it is perfectly reasonable to let it be more than tw
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You forget that computing is often an adjunct to the real work, rather than the real work itself. e.g. you're a doctor going around the hospital and you need something to carry around with your work. Portability is more important to the real work than having a full sized keyboard and monitor.
Really? (Score:2)
Will Best Buy continue to sell Windows desktops? Yes. Will enterprise shops still buy Windows desktops and servers almost exclusively? Yes. It doesn't matter. As much as Windows ME was a disaster, it didn't affect market share. As much as Vista was a turd, it didn't affect market share.
Even if people started replacing desktop apps with web apps, they still need an OS on their desktop/laptop.
Furthermore, as much as I don't care for Microsoft's business tactics, and as much as I love Linux, I think Microsoft
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I think Microsoft will actually GAIN market share with the new Window Server 2012
Why? I can see it keeping some 2k8r2 shops from jumping ship because 2012 does a few things like ReFS mitigating the advantages of ZFS and (future) btrfs, but I don't see anything to induce non-Windows shops to jump aboard all of a sudden. 2k8r2 already has virtualization, so maybe 2012 gets some capability to be more competitive, but those vmware shops that are willing to jump ship have largely already done so (to KVM either in Free or RedHat backed configurations mostly). The overwhelmingly large base
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Windows Server 2012 is the name of the new server product that will ship at the end of the year.
Windows 7 has pretty good adoption in the enterprise market. And while most shops didn't deploy Vista on the desktop, they were buying Vista licenses with a downgrade to XP. Microsoft didn't lose money or market share. I imagine that many shops will purchase Windows 8 licenses as soon as it ships, with a Windows 7 downgrade and actually deploy 7 on the desktop.
For years people have said the PC market is dead and
Stupid Question (Score:2)
A 'Cloud-Based' world? WTF??? The real question should be simply .. will Windows 8 succeed. I think not. It is Microsoft's latest 'Vista' disaster.
After this fails and Microsoft can no longer give their versions names because of 'Vista', and cannot give them numbers because of Windows 8 ... Can we switch to Linux or Mac???
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The answer to news questions is No. (Score:2)
Except in this case.
YES of course Windows 8 will succeed, just as Blurays have succeeded, despite rampant claims that discs are no longer needed. You can't just pull everything off the net, when you either have slow connections (Dialup or Economy cable) or data limits (250GB). That means you need a base OS to run the programs offline. Or for privacy.
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That's how I am..... except when it's something I love like Star Trek or Babylon 5. Then I want the HD and that's only available (for me) through Bluray.
Of and I disagree the adoption is slow. DVD took almost ten years to outsell VHS. Bluray's only been the "official" HD standard for 3-4 years now. In ten years I'm sure it will outsell the older standard
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Selling a lot of copies is not enough to be considered success. Blurays are not a success even though quite a few are sold. To be a success in Microsoft's world, it has to maintain Microsoft's dominance. That's a big ask.
Forget about the cloud (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft's biggest challenge would be to convince people that Windows 7 is somehow not good enough anymore and they can't just use their current computer until its harddrive gives out. How many years until there's software that won't run on Windows 7? Or XP for that matter.
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Well that's only for DirectX. And there are hacks to get DX10/11 to run under XP.
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Well, there's no DirectX 12 yet... and it will obviously use some new technology that Windows 7 could never handle.
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probably when IE 11 won't run on windows 7....
No. (Score:2)
When enough people get tired of their "Cloud" documents being inaccessible because Internet connection has problems/dies/they can't link to the wireless?
The people will be revolting.
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The people will be revolting.
People have always been revolting.
Oh, were you meaning that as a verb?
Do you want dumb terminals and remote mainframes? (Score:5, Informative)
Every time a game or program requires remote authentication, the reviews are scathing; yet somehow there is still a push to a paradigm of remote *everything*. This is completely inconsistent with the observed preferences of knowledgeable users. Of course, business management loves the idea - they see the control of centralization without even needing an in-house IT department. For anybody else, it means giving up the rights to your own computer.
The cloud fills a nitche (Score:3)
It does things the desktop apps didn't do before or didn't do very well. There are a lot of things desktop apps do a lot better then the cloud.
Neither one has to displace the other. It's like music and movies. You don't really consume one to the exclusion of the other. Ideally the cloud and desktop apps should learn to get along because in that way they can both play to the other's strengths and cover the other's weaknesses.
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Neither one has to displace the other. It's like music and movies. You don't really consume one to the exclusion of the other.
I watch movies and listen to music. I don't "consume" them.
The only time music would be "consumed" is if you adopt Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night" metaphor as literal - "If music be the food of love, play on"
Native apps will always be better. (Score:2)
Any cloud app requires a round-trip to the server and back in order to do anything which requires saving what you have right now as an intereim step. Usually that's something like 200ms, which any gamer will tell you is extremely perceptible.
On the flip side, any desktop app with more than about 200ms lag between clicking a button and obviously doing something is frustrating and ought to be supplanted by THE CLOUD.
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Cloud-based apps doesn't mean they have to do the equivalent of X-forwarding. In most cases, you can do the majority of the manipulation on the device itself, and only go out to the 'cloud' for opening files, saving them, and checking for updates (or downloading the app each time you run it, as is often the case with javascript apps).
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The trend is towards invisible background saving rather than pressing some menu item to save. Apple's iWork apps on ipad you never explicitly save, and you are never aware of when it is going to the cloud.
Wrong questions (Score:4, Insightful)
As a decades-long desktop- (and now laptop- and tablet-) user, I do not want "cloud based solutions". If the cloud-based bullshit goes down, or if the power goes out locally, or my ISP decides to take a crap, my shit better still be there... or rather, HERE. Locally. On a disk. It can be one of my hard drives, or my USB SSD drive, or my LAN-accessible network drive, whatever, but if I don't have direct access and control of my shit, then something is WRONG, and all the "cloud" solutions in the world won't help me at that point.
My second Android tablet, an Asus Transformer, came with some kind of cloud storage service. I've never touched it; never felt the need to. I'm not paying someone else to store my own stuff, especially when most of it won't even run on ARM devices anyway.
Yeah, I use Dropbox to keep files synchronized across devices. The difference? I still have access to my shit when I can't access the "cloud" for any reason.
Honestly, this "cloud" nonsense has to stop. The marketing bullshit has to stop. Just call it what it is: Internet-based storage. Which means, if you can't access the Internet, you can't access Your Stuff. It's off-limits to you. WTF is the point? As a remote backup? Ok, I can see that. But as real-time storage that you can't control? Screw that.
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quick summary of post:
I hate the cloud and everything it stands for.
I use the cloud in the way it's suppose to be used.
The cloud has to stop.
Yes! (Score:2)
Of course, it can! If it doesn't matter what is on the client, it can just as well be the worst OS in the history of makind!
Yes, duh (Score:2)
The marketeers koolaid is actually poison (Score:3)
It is really sad we have all this technology only to see it wasted on nonsensical bullshit designed to extract every penny from every imaginable sale channel rather than provide value to the paying customer.
The EE guys are taking names and kicking ass while software finds new ways to waste every new transistor and radio tower thay are given.
I am ashamed of myself and my industry.
Yes (Score:2)
Fuck The Cloud (Score:2)
Fuck the cloud.
You can pry my native installations and data I actually own from my cold, dead boxen.
data network will need to be better (Score:2)
and going full cloud aka on-live is a BIG data HOG and it add's a lot of control lag as well.
Is the cloud really going to edit 4K films? (Score:2)
The cloud isnt going to replace desktop applications. Holy fuck you idiots, stop spreading this horseshit.
The Desktop isn't going away (Score:2)
Better question: (Score:3)
Can Windows 8 succeed in a cloud-based world where ISP/carrier bandwidth caps are becoming prevalent?
Re:even better question: (Score:5, Insightful)
Can Windows 8 succeed in a cloud-based world where ISP/carrier bandwidth caps are becoming prevalent?
Can the cloud-based world succeed in a world where ISP/carrier bandwidth caps/overages are become prevalent?
Re:even better question: (Score:5, Interesting)
Oooh I live in Australia: no!
Seriously, how anyone uses any of the cloud-based services I know about was a mystery still I started realizing what type of internet you could get for $70 a month in the US.
Re:even better question: (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, here in the US I don't know of any individuals using cloud based services, it seems to be mostly a pipe dream for corporations hoping to unload some of their infrastructure costs. It's a silly idea that's being hyped to death, and this article is just one more example of the hype (ie, by assuming that cloud based world will exist it prompts the reader into accepting that premise).
Re:even better question: (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree. Cloud based services exist for the short sighted few who see IT as a cost center when in fact IT should be considered a key factor in driving up enterprise competitiveness through increased efficiency.
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You might have a point if you assume that everyone is using the same cloud and not their own private clouds. As someone deploying Virtual Desktops far and wide I can safely say that cloud services make a huge difference on end-point costs as well as reducing downtime associated with pouring coffee on a laptop.
I like the idea that hardware failure isn't going to stop me in my tracks. Windows 8 cloud integration doesn't strike me as anything special, same goes with SQL 2012 cloud hooks which I feel are both
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I don't know of any individuals using cloud based services
the fuck?. Gmail, Google Apps / Docs, Dropbox, BaseCamp, Flickr, Spotify, Netflix. Most individuals I know do almost everything they use a computer for "in the cloud". The corporations are the ones that seem to be holding on to legacy standalone apps.
None of those things are really relevant to the business world. You don't share DVDRips or ISOs over a network for your buddies at work, you don't have any need to watch movies or upload 100 pictures from that Canon of yours at a workplace, the only semi-useful thing in there are Google Docs (don't count Gmail since any e-mail is just as efficient in sending and receiving e-mails) but then again, most corporations already have volume licenses so that's not even that big a hassle.
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Oooh I live in Australia: no!
What's the problem?
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No. And Windows 8 can't survive in any world. Metro is going to sink Windows.
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No. And Windows 8 can't survive in any world. Metro is going to sink Windows.
Aside from "a train" and "a cellphone company" what is this Metro which you think is going to sink windows?
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No. And Windows 8 can't survive in any world. Metro is going to sink Windows.
Aside from "a train" and "a cellphone company" what is this Metro which you think is going to sink windows?
It's basically just the start screen instead of the start menu, i don't particularly like it and i'd prefer an option to default to the desktop with a start menu but i hardly see this as 'sinking Windows', we've seen plenty of fairly drastic changes over the years and all the set-in-their-ways geeks decry every change as the death knell of whatever product but it very rarely is.
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And also in a world where major ISPs have a monopoly/duopoly and refuse to build out there infrastructure to have decent speeds. Seriously, even in large population centers, you often can't get decent speeds.
I feel like a lot of talk about "the cloud" is hype until you can get a >1mbps upload rate for less than $100/month.
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Vista was a "failure" yet made the company millions in profit.
I always thought the "fail fast and often" spiel had a different point to it, but this works too.
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at lvl 57 and I haven't seen this issue other than launch day...
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Exactly!
Whats the current status of vi vs emacs?
How's the latest build of NetBSD doing?
Is this the month were Dvorak says Apple is beleaguered or is it even numbered months?
goolge? linux? apple is too locked down (Score:2)
goolge? linux? apple is too locked down.
And in a more mobile setup the least thing you want is carrier lock in with very high roaming fees and small data caps.
also apple why no battery swapping or SD / USB slots on mobile systems.
what about Dual-SIM phones? nice to keep business and private use on the same phone with there own plans or have your main sim + one for lower cost roaming.
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There are loads of things you can do on a computer without an internet connection. And quite a few which you would prefer not to have an internet connection. (Can you say "stuxnet"?)
I am shocked that software suppliers cannot understand the concept of a freestanding PC. I am not sure Win7 can even be used without Internet. I still have machines running Win98 in the lab. I believe my sewing machine run