Nexus Q Stretches "Made in USA" Label 241
sl4shd0rk writes "Among the much ballyhooed tech at Google I/O last week was the Google Nexus Q. Google made an effort to proudly point out the device was "Made in the USA" and even had it stamped on the back of it. A tear-down at ifixit.com however, reveals the guts of the thing are mostly manufactured overseas at the expected locations (China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, et al). Wired also posted a tear-down in which they reveal a die-casting shop in Wisconsin is the source of the zinc housing, but certainly not the entire device as some news sources reported. It's great that Google decided to utilize the struggling U.S. manufacturing sector for this, but claiming the device is USA made, and being blatantly vague about its origins is quite misleading." How struggling the U.S. manufacturing sector is depends on who you ask and how you measure, remember.
"Blatantly vague"? (Score:4, Funny)
Slashdot should really consider hiring an editor.
No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
The housing and assembly is done in the US.
The article is from someone who will go to pedantic lengths to justify their hate.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, even with shit that's made in China you can claim the oil required for the plastics came from Iran or wherever the fuck.
Normally "Made in" refers to the final assembled products, not necessarily every constituent component. America may not even have the facilities to produce every single last component but fundamentally even bringing assembly to the US is a step more than most other companies are doing.
This story is just another desperate clutching at straws troll.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, even with shit that's made in China you can claim the oil required for the plastics came from Iran or wherever the fuck.
Quite obviously the heavy elements in the chemical compounds were not created by fusing lighter elements in a lab in Mountain View. Those lying bastards, "made in the USA" my ass. More like "made in the collapse of RX J185635-3754."
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Do you similarly object to computers saying they're "made in China" but using chips made in the USA and Israel [wikipedia.org]?
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Yes. "Made in" labels are stupid. They might mean something if you're manufacturing pencils and all the raw materials are made and processed in the same country. For electronics they're silly.
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You can swap around the nationalities any way you like, same problem IMO.
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There's a significant difference between the people needed to do what Google is having done in the US, essentially operating a screwdriver - a job that doesn't require literacy, skill, or really even sight - and other types of manufacturing that resemble skilled labor more closely.
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Manufacturing ICs isn't all that menial.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
All manufacturing is menial work.
A statement made by someone who clearly has no understanding of manufacturing.
We spent years transitioning manufacturing offshore. Building factories, transferring knowledge, and building the skill of the workforce. Now we complain we can't manufacture anything.
I really wish you were right about manufacturing being menial. That would mean it is a trivial task to start making things here. Unfortunately you are quite mistaken.
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Informative)
Speaking as someone who's worked with Customs for years, once you have a product broken down and the parts identified, it can be quite easy to tell if it's made in the USA... from a legal standpoint:
http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/nafta-alena/texte/anx401a.aspx?lang=en&view=d
Annex 401 specific rules of origin. To summarize, there's various methods by which you can determine the country of origin of something if the parts are all made elsewhere. If all of the parts qualify for Annex 401, or the value of all non-US origin parts is less than say... 40% of the total value (can't remember the exact percentage, can't be bothered to look it up, but you get the general idea), then that there is a made in USA product.
Technically, you can have an item with absolutely zero individual pieces of it made in the USA, but if the final product is assembled here, and it qualifies in having the right tariff code changes, then that just became made in the USA.
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And it is the same for devices made in China. The final assembly is done there since they beat everyone in this with low wages and small profit margins. The expensive parts that require specialists and experience are often made somewhere else.
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Informative)
The FTC standard [ftc.gov] is that "all or virtually all" the components are made in the USA. And if you look at iFixit, you find that virtually all the major components were or could have been made in the USA; they didn't check the lot numbers to see if the parts which are made in multiple countries were, in fact, made in the US. While in general if you order a bunch of parts from a supplier you get them from wherever the supplier chooses to send them from, I'm sure that's negotiable.
(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not on the Nexus Q)
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"could have been made" in the USA? Isn't that setting the bar rather low?
I "could have" found a $20 bill on my way to work. I didn't; but it "could have" happened.
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That's not a standard, that's a true statement. If you claimed your nymsake car was "Made in the USA" and I opened the hood and found that the fuel injection system was of a model made in two factories, one in Germany and one in the US, wouldn't it make sense for me to check which of those two it was made in before claiming the car was not, in fact, "Made in the USA"
And that is what is required (Score:5, Informative)
Those labels are required by law, and what they require is that the country of final assembly is where things are labeled. Now you can argue if that is stupid or not, but that is how it is done, and has been for a long time (back when it was implemented it made more sense).
Almost all tech devices are a hodge podge of components from different places. Even a single component can have many places. Like say you get a 22nm Ivy Bridge Intel processor. Well it was fabricated in the USA, in Chandler Arizona. That's where Intel's 22nm fab is (though I understand they are bringing up 22nm at their fab in Israel soon here). However once it is fabbed, it is shipped off to another site for testing and packing. There is one in the US, but also one in Costa Rica, Singapore, and other places. So your processor may well be stamped "Costa Rica" even though the fabrication was done in the US.
Of course that then goes on a motherboard almost certainly made in China, they are pretty much the only place that makes them. However on that motherboard is components from all over. The capacitors are often from Japan, they are really big in that market. The southbridge chipset is probably from the US, other incidental chips often from Taiwan. The memory that goes on there then depends on the brand. A lot of it is made in Taiwan, some in Germany, some in the US, just depends on who you get it from it is a lot more world wide. The harddrive is probably from Malaysia, that is where most are made, though there are other places and of course the harddrive itself has a bunch of components from different places.
This just continues. We live in a global economy and most things are built of components from all over. In some cases, you discover that only one country really does a given thing. They've gotten good at it, so nobody else really competes.
The "made in" labels always specify the place of final assembly. If you want that changed, well you can work on that, but it is pretty entrenched and I doubt it is going anywhere. No way we are going to list every place. Otherwise you are going to have a device that says "Made of components from the US, Canada, Mexico, China, Taiwan, Japan, Malaysia, Germany, France, and oh fuck it about 20 other nations."
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Ok, and then should they also be required to track that? That can change day-to-day on most electronic components. They order transistors to spec, not from a specific country. So, they want a component that meets spec, they don't care who made it.
Also, should they keep track of where the original sub-components came from? The raw material? The ore for that raw material? No one keeps track of that? Fungibility is a bitch
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The automobile industry reports their percentages now. So I don't know what your point is other than being reactionary.
Origins of raw materials are not taken into consideration just the finished parts. Parts would include the CPU, Speakers, anything in a plastic package (ICs, RAM, etc.), chassis, light pipes, and surface mounted semiconductors.
This isn't that big a deal to track and as far as I can tell the chassis and circuit boards are manufactured and assembled in the US with foreign components. Believ
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Better solution:
"Made on Sol 3" ("Made on Earth", if you want to be less pedantic).
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I know mostly we don't like attributed facts on this site but maybe a link to the FTC would be in order since they, you know, actually enforce this stuff.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard [ftc.gov]
It looks to me like this might not qualify for an unqualified made in the USA label especially if a considerable amount of the electronics assembly is done in another country.
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Of course that then goes on a motherboard almost certainly made in China, they are pretty much the only place that makes them.
The main board on the Nexus Q clearly says "Made in the USA" on it. The power supply says the same thing (which surprised me even more). Designing, manufacturing, and stuffing the PCBs in the US, casting the case and base, and final assembly are the bulk of the manufacturing Google has any control over. I'd say that's a pretty damn honest effort to source US parts and labor.
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Of course! By the same token, you'll see Google "fans" go through the same exercise when an article mentions their "nemesis".
Every thread that mentions Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc will generate comments from both fans and foes. This is why websites gravitate to articles that mention these brands despite its newsworthiness.
Anyway this article is one of those "no shit sherlock" articles that points out the obvious that Googl
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The fact that only the final assembly is being done in the US
I suggest reading the iFixIt article. It seems only two components are definitely non-US in origin.
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That would depend on whether you were trying to sell the trophy for significantly more than the value of the legos used to make it. If the legos cost $100 and you sell the trophy for $500 then clearly the more valuable part of the trophy is the labor and artistic expression that went into making the trophy from the legos. In that case it would make sense to say it was made wherever you made it.
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Which would make it more right to state "Assembled in the US from domestic and foreign parts."
But it's interesting that the foreign parts are the high-tech parts and the domestic parts are the low tech parts.
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The housing and assembly is done in the US.
So if I took bananas out of a crate and put them into a bag for retail sale in the US and the bag and the label was made in the US, would you be okay with a Made in the USA label on the bag?
For the record, there are a few chips inside that are likely to have been made in the US, although they could have chosen some of the other high value chips to be so as well, but apparently didn't. They used an Elpida*** (fabs in japan/taiwan) DDR2 dram which might have been substituted with a Micron (fabs in Idaho) mob
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Informative)
It might have been obvious, but it was also wrong. The majority of it is made in the USA. Even the power supply and the PCB.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Funny)
They should put "Designed by Google in California."
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This is what Nokia does - my N900 says "Designed in Finland" on the back. It was made in South Korea (but that's not written anywhere on the outside of it).
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LOL. Yeah, right. "Finland"? Dude if you're going to make up fake placenames, make them a little more believable. Pfft, "Finland" indeed.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
There is an implied meaning in the "Made in the USA" label that they're trying to take advantage of.
Nobody who knows anything about electronics thinks that the entire Q is made from raw minerals in the USA.
Heck, the Q is more 'Made in the USA' than many automobiles advertised as such.
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you similarly object to computers "made in China" but using chips made in the USA and Israel [wikipedia.org]?
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Informative)
Google taking 90% Chinese work and slapping it inside a US case and calling it American made
90%? Really, do you have a citation for that or just talking out of your ass? Did you read any of the articles linked? Honestly their tone was more or less impressed with the percentages, the only negative spin was the really biased /. summary. Besides the die cast case, the molded base, PCBs *and* power supply were also made in the USA, which IMO was pretty damn surprising. Additionally, so were several of the sensors and chips. And the two most time consuming (and labor intensive) manufacturing steps, PCB stuffing and final assembly, were also done in the USA.
So, basically, a few chips (some of which were US companies with fabs all over the world) and maybe a few stock nuts and bolts (but who knows as those aren't labeled) were made somewhere else. Honestly it appears they tried to source US parts and labor wherever they had a choice. Just because the US doesn't even make RAM any more doesn't mean the device can't be called "Made in the USA", jeez.
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Counterexample: Me. If I see "Made in the USA", I wouldn't expect to find out it had been made in China.
So, you expect all parts, pieces, components, and processes materials to be made, from raw materials, in the USA if it has that label?
Do the raw materials have to be mined or grown here as well?
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Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Informative)
The FTC requires that country-of-origin claims be assessed by portioning the manufacturing costs of the final product. A couple of dollars worth of foreign components/costs in an otherwise domestically sourced product that costs $300 is not considered to be an issue. If, on the other hand, the final product cost $5, then it's not acceptable to make a "Made in the USA" claim.
Here is a link to the FTC page which describes the situation a bit more clearly, if not nearly so briefly.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard [ftc.gov]
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The FTC requires that country-of-origin claims be assessed by portioning the manufacturing costs of the final product. A couple of dollars worth of foreign components/costs in an otherwise domestically sourced product that costs $300 is not considered to be an issue. If, on the other hand, the final product cost $5, then it's not acceptable to make a "Made in the USA" claim.
Here is a link to the FTC page which describes the situation a bit more clearly, if not nearly so briefly.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard [ftc.gov]
If I had points, I'd mod you up! Unfortunately, I don't.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
If you go through the whole teardown, only 2 parts (the Ethernet connector and an oscillator) were definitively shown to be made in China - that's probably less than 20 cents in parts for the whole device. Sure, there are a few chips and parts made in S. Korea or Thailand, and a few more from companies with fabs all over the world. The PCBs, PSU, case, base, chip stuffing, and assembly were apparently all done in the US. That's probably better than 90% of the other products labeled "Made in the USA" these days, so give it a rest...
Now, can we stop confusing the debate and making shit up that wasn't even in any of the articles cited by this really misleading summary?
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:5, Interesting)
Heck, the Q is more 'Made in the USA' than many automobiles advertised as such.
I bought a new car earlier this year. I wanted to "buy American", so I looked into where the cars were made, and were the components were made. Of the cars I considered, the "most American" was a Honda.
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Nice research. I wonder if anybody published such a metric?
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the statistics are available. Here are a couple articles about those statistics.
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/is-your-car-american-made.aspx
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/american-cars/story?id=13801165
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Anybody who knows anything about electronics bought a Roku already.
Oooh, please point me to instructions on how do do an XBMC install on a Roku.
The one I've had for the past three years is getting long in the tooth, so it would be great to repurpose it and upgrade.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe the "Made in the USA" on the label just meant the label itself.
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To be fair the average Joe won't know to take that into account when considering how much of this thing is actually made in the US.
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:4, Informative)
Re:No, it isn't misleading (Score:4, Informative)
"Made in the USA" and "Assembled in the USA from foreign and domestic parts" have substantially different meanings, and Google is using the wrong one of these phrases in order to fool fools.
Actually they are not. The FTC has very specific regulations as to what constitutes Made in the USA and the Nexus Q meets those regulations.
"Assembled in the USA" (Score:2)
Would be more appropriate for most items that claim to be made here.
Perhaps if you have a % of US sourced parts to go along with being assembled here, but until then its not really made here by any stretch of the imagination.
Besides, why is this wrong? (Score:2)
I can understand why people dislike misleading marketing but why is it a positive thing if something is made in the USA? Humans are humans everywhere and companies are not more evil if they employ 100 people in Korea than if they employ 100 people in the USA (especially when they can probably employ 200 people in Korea instead of 100 people in the USA) I guess you could make a point about it being wrong because of the financial support (tax credits, etc.) that companies receive for staying in the states but
Support Your Hood (Score:3)
If you are living in the US then buying stuff MADE IN THE USA is buying stuff made by "your fellow citizens".
In fact i would bet that many folks here would pay a bit extra for something if they knew that it was "Made By Fred Rogers #586-23-6431D" and they could in fact Meet Mr Rogers"
so if you are living in %other country% you might prefer an item made in %other country% unless you knew that %other country% was absolute rubbish in making %item%
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So do 31% of the manufacture in the USA and 30%, 30% and 9% in China, India and Taiwan? "Manufactured in the USA."
Like cars.. (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps they have never disassembled an "american car" with all the parts stamped "made in Canda" or "made in mexico".
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I've always wondered if this is why my last two "American made" cars had a weird mix of imperial and metric bolts. My current car is a Hyundai that was built in Alabama and it also has a mix of Imperial and metric bolts, although mostly metric.
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Well, that's what we get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, what do you expect? The USA has outsourced just about all of its high-tech manufacturing overseas. There are a lot of parts that Google probably can't even get domestically. I think the point is that they're making more of the thing in the USA than most electronic gizmos. If they're successful and there's a lot of demand for the Nexus Q, and more importantly, if other companies follow suit and the demand for electronics supply to be close-at-hand increases, then you'll see a ripple effect for more things like chips being manufactured in the USA.
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Really? Google's going "out of their way"? I checked the Nexus Q web site, and funny enough, I don't see any stars and stripes plastered on it. There's a notation on the Q itself, but it's inset on the back of the unit without any kind of painted letters or anything; even less obvious than the "Made in China" stickers I see plastered on most other things I buy.
As far as I can tell, the "Made in the USA" thing originated from a tech reporter asking someone who worked on the project why it's more expensive
WSJ Link (Score:3, Informative)
Re:WSJ Link (Score:4, Informative)
But you can get eight weeks free! All WSJ asks for is some personal information ...
Fortunately the good professors school posts the article for free: http://www.umflint.edu/som/images/Perry_WSJ_022511.pdf [umflint.edu]
I see a business opportunity (Score:3)
Making stickers in the USA, that have "Made in the USA" printed on them....
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You could do it cheaper if you used Chinese glue, paper and ink!
You're paying for jobs, and you're getting them... (Score:4, Informative)
Many of the parts listed in the article had multiple possible source countries, and several of them listed US plants as potential sources. Conceivably Google could have requested those plants be used as much as possible.
Even if that's not the case, we're talking chips here. The housing was made in the USA, several of the chips were as well. It's reasonable to assume that the boards were made in a US plant, that the work of mounting chips to boards, of attaching connectors, of assembling the units, of doing QA, etc. etc. was done in a factory in the USA.
Most of the human labor (in other words the actual jobs) was performed in the USA. The foreign-sourced components are small enough that there was likely a lot more robot labor than human labor involved.
I'd say what you're really paying for in buying that Made in the USA label is employment for Americans, and you're getting it.
If you have a problem, file a complaint. (Score:5, Informative)
Even if it is a bit fuzzy, the FTC regulates the use of express claims like "Made in the USA" See this webpage for details:
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard [ftc.gov]
In short, not every part of the device needs to be from the US for the device to be "Made in the USA". Here is a relevent exerpt for people who are interested, but not THAT interested:
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What factors does the Commission consider to determine whether a product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.?
The product’s final assembly or processing must take place in the U.S. The Commission then considers other factors, including how much of the product’s total manufacturing costs can be assigned to U.S. parts and processing, and how far removed any foreign content is from the finished product. In some instances, only a small portion of the total manufacturing costs are attributable to foreign processing, but that processing represents a significant amount of the product’s overall processing. The same could be true for some foreign parts. In these cases, the foreign content (processing or parts) is more than negligible, and, as a result, unqualified claims are inappropriate.
Example: A company produces propane barbecue grills at a plant in Nevada. The product’s major components include the gas valve, burner and aluminum housing, each of which is made in the U.S. The grill’s knobs and tubing are imported from Mexico. An unqualified Made in USA claim is not likely to be deceptive because the knobs and tubing make up a negligible portion of the product’s total manufacturing costs and are insignificant parts of the final product.
Example: A table lamp is assembled in the U.S. from American-made brass, an American-made Tiffany-style lampshade, and an imported base. The base accounts for a small percent of the total cost of making the lamp. An unqualified Made in USA claim is deceptive for two reasons: The base is not far enough removed in the manufacturing process from the finished product to be of little consequence and it is a significant part of the final product.
Actually... (Score:4, Informative)
The teardown lists the chips and *potential* points of origin, a few which could not have been produced domestically. The proportion of chips that actually might have been sourced from US is actually pretty significant (more than I thought would have been possible). Of the components that might have been sourced from overseas or domestically, they have no idea how those parts were fulfilled (though at least for DIMMs, the SPD reveals the manufacturing plant if you understand the manufacturer specific location codes).
He's Holding a Thermal Detonator! (Score:2)
Maybe they OEM'd parts from Bosch.
Where is the circuit board built/populated? (Score:2)
That is really the key element to me, and the most significant assembly work. The actual components actually need to come from the suppliers where-ever they may be.
If they are actually doing the circuit board building population in the USA, I think that warrants a made in USA kudos.
If they are putting the assembled circuit board in a case, that is just lame BS.
Surprise Surprise (Score:2)
Buried Lede (Score:2)
This is another Google experiment they will kill sometime next year after the hype of embarrasing Apple for building just about everythi
The sticker (Score:3)
I heard that the 'Made in the USA' sticker was made in Mexico.
Tax cheats want to appear patriotic (Score:2)
"Google made an effort to proudly point out..." (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, the suit making the statement went to great lengths to play-down the "Made in the USA" point, going so far as to say that it would not be a significant part of their marketing strategy. Don't let things like facts get in the way of a good hate, though...
Slashdot story stretches "News" Label (Score:2, Insightful)
OMFG! Some of the ICs are only made in foreign countries! Some might be made in foreign countries, but are also made in the US! They only make most of the parts and assemble it in the US!
I read the tear down at Fix-it link, but it doesn't match the headline here. Neither does the CNN article linked claim that the entire device is made in the US.
"A tear-down at ifixit.com however, reveals the guts of the thing are mostly manufactured overseas at the expected locations (China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, et al)."
Made in the US of foreign and domestic content (Score:2)
That would be the technically accurate claim and for a number of hardware products that my employer manufactures.
In our example we assemble in the US, design in the US, program the firmware in the US, program the chips in the US but source a number of the raw parts from TAA compliant countries. I'm pretty sure the Nexus Q can claim pretty much the same manufacturing mix minus the TAA compliance, not that that matters for a consumer device.
That said I'm going to buy one... I don't care if it ends up being a
As 30rock would say: (Score:2)
"It's not hand-made in USA, it's Hand-made in Usa. The Hand people are a vietnamese slave-tribe, and Usa is their island prison."
(very bad screencap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm3TepXcD8A [youtube.com])
(Jack Donnaghy)
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Oh, and Google is owned by Halliburton !
Sometimes it's realistically impossible (Score:4, Insightful)
I read a story on the people who make Mag flashlights. They are very proud of "made in the USA" and wanted a 100% USA-manufactured product. Even for something as simple as a flashlight, turned out that one part could not be sourced from the USA, and gearing op manufacturing themselves would have been prohibitively expensive.
I'm not saying Google's in this exact boat, but it is hard to expect 100% made in the USA from any product of reasonable complexity if something as simple as a flashlight can't do it.
Re:Timothy's anus stretches "Goatse" label (Score:5, Interesting)
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Place holders for threadjacking when it gets crowded..
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Serious question. On some stories (there are certain patterns but I won't bore you), I notice a lot of the kinds of comments I am replying to right now. These comments have blatant racist/vulgar/nsfw word-spewings and are almost always from AC's. Is this some kind of coordinated effort to keep people at work or anywhere else there may be filters for this kind of stuff from reading this content? I notice it a lot on anything that praises open source or even tangentially like this Android running device. Just curious about people's thoughts.
The problem is that Slashdot's "4Chan and Mutant Repellant" shield works as well as the rest of Slashcode. That is, it's pretty buggy. Sometimes it gets the job done, other times not so much.
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A somewhat valid point. At what point do we consider something "made"? Google is going with the final assembly. However, if we go a step back to all of the final parts, just before they're put together as one, then they're from all over. And I'm sure those individual parts have smaller parts that were either partially made elsewhere yet, or else the raw materials are from all over the place.
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We actually have some laws and rules [wikipedia.org] about it. I suggest we start there.
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Made in America means that it can be made in Chile or Canada too.
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It's still B.S. It's a tech product, and the circuit board isn't even stuffed with imported parts in the U.S. Having the case or frame here might as well be called a marketing expense instead of a manufacturing expense. It's done for marketing reasons, and isn't the meat of the product. They might as well throw a can of spaghetti sauce in a pot and call it homemade after adding a pinch of salt.
It would be funny to see this used as precedence in an immigration case.
"Yes, I'm made in U.S.A., it says so ri
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Designed in California, Assembled in Wisconsin, Parts from Asia, Raw Materials from All Over The Fscking Place
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