OpenGL Becoming a Requirement For the Linux Desktop 229
An anonymous reader writes "Modern Linux desktops like Ubuntu's Unity and the GNOME Shell have placed a requirement on OpenGL 2.0+ support for handling their compositing window managers and desktop effects. Wayland's Weston also needs OpenGL ES 2.0 support. Now with modern Linux distributions like Ubuntu 12.10, rather than falling back to a 2D unaccelerated desktop if you don't have a sufficient GPU or graphics driver, users are being forced to run LLVMpipe as a CPU-based software rasterizer. LLVMpipe works fine if you are on a new PC with a fast x86-64 CPU, but the OpenGL-based Linux desktops are causing growing pains for ARM hardware, virtual machines, servers, multi-seat computers, and of course all older hardware. LLVMpipe is a Mesa Gallium3D driver that uses LLVM for run-time code generation as an attempt at accelerating graphics faster on the CPU. So much for Linux being good for old computers?"
The KMS based graphics stack is already effectively unusable on AGP systems (if you have SMP + AGP, there are race conditions somewhere leading to really hard crashes that appeared a couple of years ago and dozens of years old open bugs with no resolution other than "use PCI mode" which cuts bus bandwidth by 4 or 8 times, and still doesn't work with SMP), but for those with older PCIe/IGP systems you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor. Of course then you lose compositing, and there aren't any usable external compositors for some reason. The flipside to this is that moving to OpenGL as the primary interface to the GPU means one fewer driver that has to be written, and will probably lead to an overall improved experience for those with supported hardware given the limited resources Free Software drivers authors have.
Fluxbox (Score:5, Informative)
Still no OpenGL required for Fluxbox. Still snappy on old hardware too.
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Or KDE 3.x, XFCE, or Gnome 2.x
You don't need to have the latest and best, as long as it does what you need.
Re:Fluxbox (Score:5, Informative)
Let's keep people educated. KDE 4.x (Kwin) doesn't require GL either, it's completely optional and can be disabled, "live", via a keyboard shortcut or setting an automatic window property (like launching a game > disable compositing".
It's important that people knows KDE doesn't require GL to run, so they:
A) Keep maintaining it.
B) Others see it as an example of how to do things right.
openbox+xcompmgr (Score:2)
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Maybe it is time to switch back to Debian. Ah, the eternal tradeoff between stale packages and instability :)
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What he is saying is KDE and Gnome and their associated stacks are starting to be designed in ways that are unusable if you can't support OpenGL 2. OpenGL 2 requires semi beefy CPU or hardware graphics acceleration. So the lowest end systems won't be able to run KDE or Gnome.
Why anyone would want to run a heavy GUI on very low end hardware wasn't explained.
Re:openbox+xcompmgr (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't lump KDE in with the others. It's just Gnome and Unity doing this.
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Thank you, I stand corrected. I would have figured the article would just say Gnome 3 moves from OpenGL 2 being highly recommend to mandatory if that was the only change.
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How often do you need to read what's behind your console? And how often does what's behind your console interfere with reading what's on it? I can't imagine any circumstance where the former would happen more often than the latter.
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konsole transparency? why? Don't you read the console?
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Servers? (Score:2, Insightful)
This ain't Windows, boy.
go back to your remote desktop, everything-has-to-interact-with-the-GUI-scripting, and other such nonsense...
Wtf? (Score:2)
"Both Linux and windows servers I administrate involve (a) GUI management applications for the services/daemons "
You need to improve your unix CLI skills if you have to use a GUI to manage system daemons.
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I doubt that. I sadly am in the same boat as the above user. I administrate several applications who's configuration has to be done by a GUI (and a very poorly designed one at that). They have a batch automation tool for some features, if you want to go through their horribly inefficient configuration file language, but that makes the GUI look like a well written tool. Sadly, others at my organization are even worse off - they only have GUI tools for the Linux stuff they need to administrate.
Linux does a lo
alt+shift+F12 (Score:5, Informative)
KDE (Kwin) has one of the most advanced compositing window managers around. You can toggle compositive off with alt+shift+F12 and go back to a 2D desktop. If it detects that it cannot run with compositing due to hardware limitations, it will do that by default, or you can configure it not to if you just don't like that.
There is no requirement for OpenGL in any reasonable window manager.
Re:alt+shift+F12 (Score:4, Informative)
As long as you don't attempt to apply bilinear/trilinear filtering, Kwin's compositing even works reasonably well in pure software mode.
Re:alt+shift+F12 (Score:5, Informative)
And remember you can add window rules to disable compositing dynamically, for example when launching a game or other GL-intensive tool. It's the only (linux) desktop that allows that.
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Mesa? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mesa? (Score:5, Informative)
From what I understand, there hasn't been a single piece of graphics hardware ever that implemented every single OpenGL call in hardware. The point of Mesa was to provide reference code that driver implementers could build on, replacing calls that their hardware did support with the appropriate driver hooks, and leaving the rest as is, while providing a consistent ABI (at least per-distro) to applications that need to link against libGL. It serves the same purpose today as when it was first written.
But it is very out of date (Score:2)
New nVidia cards fully support OpenGL 4.2 either in hardware or in their drivers (if there's something they are missing, let me know I've not encountered it). Mesa is only up to 3.1. So what does Mesa get you, over a regular video card driver?
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Probably your old SGI machine can run GL correctly, but openGL 4.3 ? I doubt it.
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Because it's an open GL -reference- implementation.
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Isn't LLVM a backend for the Mesa3d library? Without Mesa, there is no interface to the LLVM pipe engine.
Compton (Score:2)
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This is why I keep reading slashdot.
Thanks for this info. Better than xcompmgr and proves the point I was trying to make in another thread that tear-free window dragging works just fine with a compositor.
Now, mack to uncomposited FVWM :)
KDE? (Score:5, Interesting)
Does KDE requires OpenGL support now as well?
you could always runs Window Maker, Sawfish, Enlightenment, Open Box, or one of many other window managers without a compositor.
I think I can just disable the compositor on KDE and re-enable it if I wish. Or does the author have a bias against KDE that he/she is not mentioned one of the most used Linux desktops?
Re:KDE? (Score:5, Informative)
KDE doesn't require a compositor, and you can toggle compositing on and off pretty easily if you want.
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Alt+Shift+F12, I believe. Works pretty damn well for me. Screw Gnome.
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You can see most of the comments here neglect to tell about that kwin feature, apparently slashdot as a whole is biased against KDE as well. I can kind of understand because of things like akonadi and activities...., but the window manager is way too good to be ignored, and someone should show a minimum of praise for a work well done. (and remember kids, you can use kwin without all of kde4)
Unity? GNOME? Wayland? Who uses these? (Score:4, Insightful)
No reason to use what some distros (that apparently have gone off the deep end) offer as defaults. Stay with x.org, use a sane window manager like fvwm, xfce, etc. where the developers actually remember what the role of a window manager is, and this stupid discussion does not need to concern you at all.
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I use Unity. When it works, I like it. It was always a bit flaky for me in 12.04, as was nVidia and Firefox. Now these problems are solved. However, update-manager crashes when I click the icon, and ubuntu-bug crashes when I try to submit a bug report. Maybe they just got tired of hearing from me.
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Samba works a hell of a lot better than Window's native sharing ever did.
Ubuntu != Linux and Gnome != Linux desktop (Score:3)
There are plenty of other choices - both for Linux distros and desktops, many specifically targeted towards the old hardware. Furthermore, if you are running so old hw that has AGP or some ARM devices, you probably don't want to run a full-blown Gnome/Unity on that anyway.
Really? (Score:5, Funny)
Ah! Have you ever heard about KDE, LXDE, XFCE etc. etc.? They seems not to require OpenGL at all! You insensitive Gtk-clod!
And nothing of value was lost (Score:2)
Of course then you lose compositing
Oh the humanity! Think Of The Children!
Seriously though, no non-technical end users whom the desktop is being aimed at (why?) know what compositing is. Need to describe it in terms of what it looks like. You need to explain that its, um, well, you know those useless decorations that make the computer seem slower than it really is? Yeah its them. Oh you mean my computer will run faster? Cool!
Fuck that (Score:2)
One of the main reasons I switched to Linux was to avoid having to buy a bloody gaming computer just to render the desktop animations while working.
LXDE/XFCE all the way. Compositing was invented for people with more spare GPU cycles than they can reasonably use.
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As lots of people already said here, KDE does not need it.
Also, it is indeed getting harder and harder to find (or build) a computer that doesn't come with 3D acceleration.
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So now any system with an Intel GPU is a gaming computer? Well fuck, you might as well just go into hiding now.
Yes, so what should they do? Be forced to give it up and do things The Right Way, As Determined By True Linux Users?
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One of the main reasons I switched to Linux was to avoid having to buy a bloody gaming computer just to render the desktop animations while working.
LXDE/XFCE all the way. Compositing was invented for people with more spare GPU cycles than they can reasonably use.
Amusingly, Canonical provides not just Ubuntu, with its snazzy composited-only desktop, but also Xubuntu with your beloved XFCE, and Lubuntu with the even slenderer LXDE. And you can get to any of them starting by debootstrapping ubuntu-minimal, which is how I generally perform a new install of Ubuntu. Or for that matter, you can build a GUIless server from that point, too, or you can just install matchbox and a couple of other packages which I've also done before, for the ultra-super-minimal install.
This is really easy to solve... (Score:3, Informative)
$20 can get a decent PCI-e video card that can be used for accelerating desktop compositing. Resourceful people can probably even find suitable cards for free if they look around.
We are way beyond the point where a 3D accelerated video card is a luxury item in a PC.
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Any modern card with AMD or Nvidia chips will work.
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True, but I don't think you'll find any expansion cards with an Intel video chip. That's been integrated into their chipsets since forever, and now it's being integrated right into the CPU.
The last (and only, so far as I know) Intel-based video cards used the old i740 chip, which was current in the Win98 days and had crap drivers. I had one of these that was made by IIRC Diamond.
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Nope (Score:3)
Kwin can work without OpenGL and it's damn snappy. Not everything is gnome.
Seriously, Identity Crisis (Score:2)
Your WM is just one software package in your Linux distro. Your Linux distro is just one of many. Pretty much any Linux distro can be re-installed completely from source (and necessary binary blobs) to -BE- another
Linux not "good" for old computers???? (Score:2)
So much for Linux being good for old computers?
No. Slackware. Gentoo. You Name It.
Old hardware is affordable and enviro-friendly (Score:2)
Windows 7??? (Score:2)
It's really weird to say this, but Windows 7 seems to be friendlier to older hardware now; I've certainly run into less trouble putting Windows 7 on older machines; that includes an old PIII Dell C610 I used to have, albeit without Aero support but with general 3D. I wonder how a modern Linux distro would have treated it?
The kids use an ancient Dell P4 with Nvidia 5200 AGP card and 2GB RAM which runs Win7 just fine, perfectly well for the kids schoolwork (incl MS Office) and simpler games (including Flash w
"Of course then you lose compositing..." (Score:2)
So what? I can think of no reason I would want it, let alone need it.
Re:Windows Server (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a simple solution - install Windows Server 2003/2008. It doesn't need fancy graphics card to operate. That is, if you are looking for server/virtual server OS. Otherwise you can just go with Windows XP or Windows 7.
A headless windows server doesn't need a fancy graphics card... but neither does a headless linux server.
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Just one issue:
$1,099.99 Microsoft Windows Server 2008 R2 Standard 64-bit 1 Server 10 CAL
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116853&name=Server-Software [newegg.com]
I'll keep my thousand dollars and you can keep your buggy, virus ridden, proprietary OS.
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And a snickers.
DX9/10 requirements (Score:2)
Let's not forget that Windows has it's own set of requirements, that in XP DX9 compliant hardware is required and in later versions more advanced DX hardware is required for certification.
So Windows has requirements. Also, there *should* be a GL implementation that works as well. Only the lamest manufacturers and newest hardware would be lacking these.
has openGL too! (Score:2)
Windows Server 2003 also has a working OpenGL implementation. Best of both worlds.
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Get real, the world runs on whatever the fuck it needs to run. That means Linux, Windows, BSD, HPUX, what-the-hell gets the job done (or, does approximately so, and makes the business-goons-who-make decisions happy).
Leave your fantasy idealism world and look at reality some time.
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If Windows is the answer, then it must have been a really stupid question.
Re:Windows Server (Score:5, Funny)
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Lets face it, slashdot has zealots on both sides of the fence here.
Hey it's perfectly fine here on the Amiga side of the fence, it's just the *other* side of the fence that's the problem!
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Your 'Solution' isn't even close. The 'problem' the OP raised is about /linux/ *desktops*
If you need a server with a graphical desktop, his solution is close.
Re:Dear OP (Score:5, Informative)
you are out of date. Unity 2d is now dropped.
Re:Dear OP (Score:4, Interesting)
While Unity 2D may have been dropped, Ubuntu Precise (which is as you probably know a LTS) offers the "Gnome Classic (no effects)" option, which uses Metacity and no Compiz (install gnome-session-fallback). There are some small differences from older "pure" Gnome 2 (and there are plenty of tutorials on the web describing how to close the gap) but I haven't found anything critical, overall it's close enough to the Gnome 2 experience.
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I just installed gnome-session-fallback on Quantal. Haven't tried it yet, but it installed... OK, I tried it. It works great. And my Unity3D desktop is still here working after trying it, too.
Re:Dear OP (Score:5, Informative)
Too many comments forget Kwin. Which kind of shows nobody really uses KDE4, apparently, because it's a killer feature nobody knows about: It doesn't require GL and can enable and disable it on the fly without losing anything you are doing at the time. Even with automated rules!
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Too many comments forget Kwin. Which kind of shows nobody really uses KDE4, apparently...
If peoples' KDE4 desktops actually work then why would they be bothered?
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Because it's a "major" desktop that doesn't ask for GL, so I think it's relevant to mention here. Only two of the major players require GL, and that makes the article pretty much invalid.
The "live" enable/disable is incredibly handy too. I can be using compositing to manage a lot of codedev/image editing/music editing/reference windows and disable it when I am trying out the results of that code, automagically, so I get full unhindered FPS in whatever I am making without losing the advantages of compositing
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Too many comments forget Kwin. Which kind of shows nobody really uses KDE4, apparently, because it's a killer feature nobody knows about: It doesn't require GL and can enable and disable it on the fly without losing anything you are doing at the time. Even with automated rules!
KWin's Martin is making KWin leverage OpenGL ES 2.0 out of the box.
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2012/09/splitting-up-kwins-opengl-compositor/ [martin-graesslin.com]
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People aren't complaining about this with KDE because it works. It's only Gnome and Unity pushing this on people, but articles like this are par for the course when working out why the Linux desktop has utterly failed. OpenGL is a requirement for Gnome and Unity where they are collectively called the 'Linux desktop' and a G
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What about XFCE stifles your productivity? I rarely hear a remark against it so I'm interested to know.
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Admittedly, it's a fairly beefy machine (i7-2600K, 16GB RAM, GeForce GTX 560 Ti, 3 TB disc) but I haven't run into anything I can't do on it. What am I missing out on by using XFCE?
Re:Dear OP (Score:5, Interesting)
But precisely its strong point is what invalidates TFA. I don't love KDE for failures like akonadi or nepomuk, but because it has the best mainstream window manager out of the niche alternatives like Ratpoison or Awesome. It's compliant with modern standards, has automatic window rules set from a nice, handy GUI, has per-window keybindings, and is very fast on mediocre hardware like mine. It allows to maintain complex layouts without effort and without being limited by a tiled system (although that ALSO exists in Kwin, if that's your thing!).
If I need the compositing features I turn them on, if I need speed I turn compositing off, it's as simple as that, all your windows remain the same, you don't need to log out. You can even automate it with windows rules (3 clicks, literally). All your settings are kept, from theming to effects to thumbnailing or whatever.
So, because of that, I think kwin is pretty much worth mentioning in this news story. Sorry if you don't like, but it IS relevant to this discussion.
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Hate to break it to you, but your processor was released circa 2005/2006, as was your graphics card.
Meaning it's knocking on for six years old now.
Yes I accept it's a perfectly adequate computer - far more so than a six year old PC would have been in 2005. But it's still getting on.
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My 2005 Macbook needs a new battery, but otherwise is in perfect working condition. Runs Lion very well, though Apple does not support ML on this generation of hardware.
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NVIDIA 6800 is graphics acceleration but only up to OpenGL 1.5, this is about OpenGL 2. That is you have hardware acceleration but more aimed at KDE 3 or Gnome 2. The chip you mentioned is a 2005-7 desktop chip. Why wouldn't this system be horribly out of date?
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I don't know when I looked online the comments were OpenGL support was non existent to buggy and bad.
Beyond Googling I don't have any any information.
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Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)
You'd be surprised how many people run older hardware. I don't give a damn about gaming; so all three desktops and one of the two laptops in my house are old 32-bit machines (Athlons, Pentium 4 3.06GHz HT, Celeron in the lappy). They run apps just as fast as when they were new state-of-the-art machines - it seems daft that it's the window management that's forcing me to look for leaner distros. I'm certainly not going to spend money upgrading hardware to have prettier window decorations and physics.
Re:And? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And? (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not forced. There's still plenty of lightweight window managers available in the Ubuntu repositories.
Granted, Canonical could detect old hardware and automatically install such things by default. But it's hardly the end of the world.
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All Canonical needs to do is give a little more promotion to lubuntu, which provides you with a really simple and lightweight desktop that is immediately familiar and highly functional in much less memory than full Ubuntu. This is fine for anyone with antique hardware; it runs fine on my AMD GEODE systems, for example.
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At least you have the option for leaner distros. That means there are enough like minded people to at least maintain code for you.
As for me, I want my $300 GPU and 12 thread CPU to be
Re:And? (Score:5, Informative)
I can assure you that my nine year old (but basically eleven year old tech, I got it for a steal when they EOLed everything after the Athlon64 FX was released) AthlonMP is still alive and kicking. With two 2.13GHz processors, 4G of RAM, and a Radeon X1650 it wouldn't be too shabby. Except for the part where I have to keep CPU1 disabled to use OpenGL (initially, I blamed having a Radeon 9100 so I got the new one, no dice). My only option at this point is to drop back to something like Debian lenny, but then I can't run xbmc (really, xbmc + zsnes + mame + {supertuxkart, armagetron} + a few xbox controllers = really sweet HTPC... and the box is great as a fileserver and build server all in one). For power, the thing idles at around 120W, so it's not even that much worse than a modern AMD based system on the power bill (we've got that nukular power round these parts, so I'm still paying a dime a kwh and can feel 1/3 fewer pangs of guilt about burning coal). With the second CPU disabled, however, it's just an underpowered old machine instead of something competetive with a more modern low end desktop.
I gave up on debugging it (the lock up is so hard, even kgdb doesn't work... and trying to do the remote tracing thing also doesn't work because the last traces before the crash don't make it to the serial port). It's turned perfectly usable hardware into ... well, I'm getting an FX-whatever rig next week. Probably better for the economy, not so great for my account balance.
Re:And? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, it is. My A6-3500*-based PC idles under 30 W, full load is around 60 W.
*: 3x2.1 GHz CPU + HD 6530D GPU.
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An FX-8xxx system idles around 80-90... peak at over 200 (if all the benchmarks are to believed). And my number is at the socket according to a kill-a-watt, and my power supply is pretty inefficient... before I put the X1650 in, it was more like 95W (damned graphics card!).
First World Problems (Score:2)
"I don't really care about hardware that hasn't been generally "available in five years and hasn't been seen in the wild in two.
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A big part of the appeal of Linux as a desktop OS has always been that it runs on aged hardware that one can get for free. For example, I have a Pentium IV here that I will give away in a heartbeat, which runs Ubuntu very nicely. It's nothing to write home about, but for a non-gamer it will cover every need they might have.
The massive compatibility list is a big deal. AGP support is still important. Even EISA and MCA are really important if you happen to have some sort of industrial control board you can't
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I didn't say anything about the sort of machine it made it into. Only the sort of chip. Certainly at the time (don't know about now), Apple were putting mobile chips in the iMac.
Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)
I recently installed xubuntu on my portable after getting sick of the ubuntu desktop. I must say, I'm quite happy with the switch. It boots and runs very fast, and I think my battery life is a bit longer now too. The desktop is functional and traditional, "fancy features weirdo's" have not ruined the project yet.
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So you just define the first Atoms as not mainstream?
I have several Atoms, including one that's 32-bit only, but I would define them as not mainstream too. The 32-bit Atoms were largely used in netbooks and embedded systems.
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I have several Atoms, including one that's 32-bit only, but I would define them as not mainstream too. The 32-bit Atoms were largely used in netbooks and embedded systems.
But they sold an absolute shitload of those 32 bit Atom netbooks, and they are a rock solid platform and typically were 10" or smaller which means more resistant to breakage due to smaller size (less lever arm in an impact, and less mass too) so many of them are still in use.
Re:And THIS, Ladies and Gentlemen... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know! How dare they take advantage of graphics hardware of newer systems! X11 primitives should be enough for everyone!
It's also great if you want to work with Linux and the software available to it, but don't quite want to spend as much time screwing around with the platform.
Fortunately it's not.
Hey, look at that. Options for the technology-averse technologist. Can people stop bitching about the fact that the GUI subsystem is being modernized and go take advantage of all the old, inefficient, software-powered solutions that you prefer?
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Is why I will never install Ubuntu again, and why this distribution is doomed to irrelevance. [...]
Don't misunderstand me: Ubuntu is fine if you are an absolute Linux beginner. For the rest of us, frankly, this is just one more nail in its coffin, as far as I am concerned, Ubuntu is fast becoming the Mandrake of the 20xx.
Ubuntu isn't just for "Linux beginners". It's for an audience that isn't able or doesn't want to spend time choosing, configuring and optimizing their operating system. These are also users who like an easy to use system that offers similar paradigms and visuals as other contemporary graphical interfaces, and will generally pay the price for that (e.g. not being able to use it comfortably on old hardware).
Your use of the term "Linux beginner" in this context only makes sense if you assume that Linux users w
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When wasn't Ubuntu as heavyweight as Mandrake / Mandriva? Ubuntu has always been a GUI prominent distribution.
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I humbly disagree. I found happiness when I moved to Ubuntu (from Gentoo, but that's irrelevant)
You see, the defaults might suck for power users, but it not only has all the debian goodness inside, it also has a really good amount of up-to-date software in PPAs, and it's favored by many developers who release closed-source-free-software. The 2D CAD suite I use only has binary Ubuntu packages, for example. (rest is w32/64 and mac).
And hell, Steam will come to Ubuntu, more reason for me, a gamedev (in my free