German City Says OpenOffice Shortcomings Are Forcing It Back To Microsoft 480
The city of Freiburg, Germany adopted OpenOffice back in 2007, mostly replacing the Microsoft Office software it had been using previously. Now, an anonymous reader tips news that the city council is preparing to abandon OpenOffice and switch back.
"'In the specific case of the use of OpenOffice, the hopes and expectations of the year 2007 are not fulfilled,' the council wrote, adding that continuing use OpenOffice will lead to performance impairments and aggravation and frustration on the part of employees and external parties. 'Therefore, a new Microsoft Office license is essential for effective operations,' they wrote. ... 'The divergence of the development community (LibreOffice on one hand Apache Office on the other) is crippling for the development for OpenOffice,' the council wrote, adding that the development of Microsoft Office is far more stable. Looking at the options, a one-product strategy with Microsoft Office 2010 is the only viable one, according to the council."
The council was also disappointed that more municipalities haven't adopted OpenOffice in the meantime. Open source groups and developers criticized the move and encouraged the council to consider at least moving to a more up-to-date version of the office software suite.
What about LibreOffice (Score:2, Informative)
Well, libreoffice could fullfill their all dreams. It's amazing! Using it every day with my cute Ubuntu 12.04
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Well, libreoffice could fullfill their all dreams. It's amazing! Using it every day with my cute Ubuntu 12.04
"Cute Ubuntu 12.04"? That's an Enterprise environment? Good argument.
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Of course not, because Enterprise means slow, expensive and bug filled.
Sadly this is more often the case than not.
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Of course not, because Enterprise means slow, expensive and bug filled.
Sadly this is more often the case than not.
Wrong.
Enterprise software means only one thing in business. Enterprise-level support. As long as someone other than me is to blame when it fucks up, I don't give a shit. Sadly this is the case. Always.
And slow, expensive, and bug filled is difficult to see when the grease is still wet on the CxO's hand.
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And for most Enterprise software you get the blame the support team a lot.
I once had to "design" an enterprise system. I kept on getting all my design request tossed out the window in favor to completely idiotic request with their only excuse is this is how enterprise software deals with them.
No no don't get the information you need get and load all the information, that fits the model. Oh there is something outside of that model. Instead of adding to the model go ahead and come up with a hacky way to get
Re:What about LibreOffice (Score:5, Funny)
Enterprise solution - solvent used for dissolving excessive piles of cash in corporate vaults.
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It's all fine and good (I'm on Kubuntu 12.10 on my primary box)... until you want interoperability with and MS stuff. Which I wish I didn't, but practically speaking, I often do.
I recently was giving a talk for a class in another department, and created my slides in Libre Office. All fine and good, but when I exported them in .pptx (.ppt no longer even being offerred as an option) and then opened them *in Libre Office* the formatting was completely mangled. Powerpoint (which I hate, and which I hated even w
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Re:What about LibreOffice (Score:5, Informative)
Longer answer: OpenOffice (and LibreOffice) chokes on documents created in newer versions of Office (2010, possibly 2012). It can leave out parts of the document entirely. The elements are usually the geometry objects (line arrows, word balloons, etc). This little problem actually got a customer pretty pissed off at me because I referred to the document missing some key components that were actually there when viewed in MS Word.
For personal use, advanced users, or environments where you can strictly control document formats, OpenOffice can work. However, if you need to be able to read documents coming from uncontrolled sources, it still has a very long way to go to become viable replacement for Microsoft Office.
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I know that LibreOffice chokes on a lot of docx formatting. For simple documents it does fine, but it's docx support otherwise sucks serious donkeyballs. We finally gave up on it. The price just wasn't worth the hassle.
I think if you were running a pure OpenOffice shop with not much in the way of correspondence in or out of the organization, it would probably work fine.
Re:What about LibreOffice (Score:4, Insightful)
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They are running a local government. They do not need to listen to any private company.
It's easy for a US resident to overlook due to lack of experience, but local governments are supposed to serve the local people. A government of a German town is not like your average Latin American junta. They have to listen to complaints of their constituents - and they did, and we are reading the story about it.
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If I recall correctly, there is a plugin for MS Office to support ODF. Meaning presumably one could still use MS Office to author/edit correspondence with the local government, they just had to save it in a particular file format.
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Macros
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Only .docm, and for excel .xlsm files can contain macros, .docx and .xlsx don't.
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LibreOffice 3.6.2 has mostly fixed the MS Office 2010 compatibility issues.
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You must be running Windows. From the release notes.
If that bug doesn't affect you, install 3.6. It's definitely worth the upgrade
On Linux distros, the package manager does the updates and assures that dependencies are met so a manual install Windows Style(TM) is not recommended unless you know what you'r
Re:What about LibreOffice (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they're stupid. They're using OpenOffice from 2007! Five years ago! Ditch your fancy Ubuntu 12.04 and run Debian Etch for a few weeks to understand the kind of frustration those dumb, dumb IT managers put their employees through.
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I normally write in LaTeX but currently use it. Unfortunately I can't confirm your assessment. In my opinion it's a pile of crap.
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Maybe for you in your basement run business selling stale Cheetos but not in a professional setting where corporations or government wish to actually perform real work moron.
Sir, I applaud your courage to sign your own posting. Bravo!
Not the way to do business (Score:4, Funny)
"Open source groups and developers criticized the move and encouraged the council to consider at least moving to a more up-to-date version of the office software suite."
Newsflash: Government department can't figure out alternative software solution - geeks say "just download the update".
Re:Not the way to do business (Score:4, Interesting)
Have you actually used LibreOffice in the last 6 months or so? There have been huge improvements in the .docx handling.
Serious question time... (Score:3, Interesting)
OK, I'm not a word processor or office suite user in the slightest. The most I do with OOo is read other people's Word documents perhaps once every few months (and even then Textedit usually does the job). A simple text editor is all I've needed even for my longest articles.
What is it in a decent wordprocessor like Word that users of wordprocessors find useful, and that OOo doesn't handle?
I ask out of curiosity - and knowing there have to be a few geeks who also use WPs in the real world to translate for me :).
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I was going to ask the same question - what can MS Office do that OO can not?
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Apparently it has better support for docx. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55820 [freedesktop.org]
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OO cannot do powerpoint or word documents correctly. Everything gets screwed up in the formatting. I vouch for this from my own experience, having attempted to use open source replacements and been soundly rejected by their poor implementation and 'hairyness'.
Re:Serious question time... (Score:5, Insightful)
What is it in a decent wordprocessor like Word that users of wordprocessors find useful, and that OOo doesn't handle?
The #1 missing feature that Open/Libre office lacks compared to word is being word.
Different is not acceptable. It must be identical including all misfeatures and bugs.
Re:Serious question time... (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly so.
I had to bail on OOo because it didn't interact perfectly with various documents created in Word, Excel and PowerPoint. 99% of the time it was fine, but that 1% of the time caused enough headache that I gave up on OOo and just used MS Office. OOo's non-identical nature wound up costing me about 4 hours of work time and teammates another 2-3 hours total of lost productivity in just one instance - that was a cost in lost time of much more than the license would cost.
I can't even migrate my team to a variant of OOo because there are dozens of different teams, agencies, groups and other organizations we deal with regularly and again - 1% of the time weird shit happening unless we have MS Office isn't going to cut it.
So, left with a choice of primarily using OOo (but keeping MS Office around just in case) or just using MS Office alone, it's a no brainer.
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Re:Serious question time... (Score:4, Informative)
I use both M$ Office and Libreoffice. For personal reasons and bias, whenever possible I use LO instead of M$O, for the following reasons:
1. To see whether LO is ready for daily use;
2. To determine what differences exist between both;
3. To test which features would recommend one suite over the other;
4. To test if documents can be created and use in a mixed environment and
5. To better understand the actions of a monopolist in trying to avoid competition.
Now for my opinions and conclusions:
1. LO is ready for day-to-day use wrt the things I do (text documents, spreadsheets, presentations _and_ drawings.
Most of my documents are read and created using LO.
2. Differences between LO and M$O do exist. In about 1% of documents I receive, I may need Excel for some weird feature; in most cases, the suites are equivalent. But compatibility is greater in text, ok in spreadsheets, usually good enough in presentations and LO is better than M$O wrt drawing (has anyone heard about the ancient M$ Draw?)
3.Now, the best "feature" of LO is being easier to use than M$O (because of all the problems the "ribbon" creates). Also, LO is more object-orientated: click on something to change its properties, which is easier than some hidden menus in M$O to reach some desired setting. M$O imports better html, though, both in Word and in Excel, but I suspect Firefox could help here. LO is a lot more versatile with free standard formats, so usually I use it first to open any file, including M$' proprietary ones.
4. After editing, as a last operation odf documents are saved as the equivalent M$ format. No one complained till now, but I have the extra care of opening them in M$ apps before sending. I assume in an LO-only workplace things will be simpler; this "M$O is the standard for external communication" reveals extreme lack of IT knowledge, since documents can be sent as pdf files to external parties. Nothing can be easier.
5. Regarding M$ actions, not much in that regard -- or the LO guys are really good with countermeasures. Actually, most of our problems arise from incompatibilities among versions of M$ software, thus I believe Freiburg won't have a happy life after some 3 to 5 years in the future when M$ decides their new Office won't be compatible with the previous one.
Specifically regarding your question, there's nothing special about Word. Other apps, F/oss or proprietary, do more or less the same with little variations -- one of the reasons being that word processing is widely understood after all these years and there's not much to add anymore. In fact, it annoys me to no end that some fellow coworkers still move the cursor one character a time (with the keyboard arrows), so I suspect even basic Android apps would be more than enough to replace Word.
People who want to buy M$O, I suppose, are doing the blame game (it's not my fault, it's M$'!) or believe in old golden days when life was better and maybe spending money could bring those days back again... well, for me it's the opposite: I remember when there was a lot of word processors and Word was not one of them -- and people worked quite well, thank you very much.
But then, I'm biased and pro-F/OSS...
Re:Serious question time... (Score:5, Insightful)
p>But then, I'm biased and pro-F/OSS...
And here I thought that your 's' key had broken and you were forced to use the dollar sign instead...
Re:Serious question time... (Score:5, Informative)
Word has an understandable formatting model. That is, all the formatting for a paragraph is stored in the paragraph mark. You can select a paragraph mark, copy it, paste it somewhere else in the document, and you have a paragraph formatted identically to the original. In OO, your text may take on different formatting depending on whether you backspace away a paragraph mark vs deleting it. No kidding. Also, there's no way to reliably copy a paragraph from one place in a document to another and retain the formatting without adding sacrificial paragraphs before and sometimes after the text you are trying to copy. Seriously. OO's formatting model is just broken.
Until this basic problem is addressed, people will -- rightly -- prefer using word. I've been fighting oo's formatting for years, and frankly, I'm sick of it.
MS Office document formats (Score:2, Informative)
If you want to beat MS Office, start with natively reading and writing their formats. I don't mean importing from and exporting to the formats. I mean adopting at least the older formats and all their issues in your core.
Why, you ask? Because everybody else is going to send you .doc, .xls and .ppt. And that's what they expect to receive back from you. And as you load and save these documents in your respective Office suites, it's not acceptable for them to degrade like a jpeg.
Re:MS Office document formats (Score:5, Insightful)
No. No. A thousand times, no. Basing your actions on what you *wish* other people would do is a losing strategy. You have to base your actions on what you reasonably project that other people in fact *will* do.
Other people will use Microsoft Office, and most will continue doing so for the foreseeable future. Since they trade documents with each other all the time, they'll expect to do so successfully with you. Without the degradation that comes from import/export cycles. They expect to walk in with a power point on a CD, place the disc in your PC and display it on your projector. If you can't adequately support these things, you're the screwball who can't achieve a business norm.
Legitimate complaints. (Score:2, Informative)
The article mentions two issues I concur with. The excel clone "Calc" is not in the same league. And importing/converting between MS and open document isn't that good either.
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Also, factor in that they're using the 2007 version. If Calc still isn't up to par with MS Office's stagnant Excel five years later, just think about what they were dealing with, especially considering how quickly OO has been improving in the past years. Who was the idiot that though living forever in 2007 was a good idea?
I use LibreOffice on my Mac (Score:2, Redundant)
And out of all the applications I use, it's the one I dread the most, to say it's slow and unwieldy is an understatement.
I've no idea on MS Office's performance in recent years, but I can feel Germany's frustration!
good point about the split (Score:3)
I use LibreOffice/OpenOffice almost exclusively, and my experience is that it is more than adequate as an MS Office replacement. In fact, I find Office rather annoying to use now.
That said, I think TFA has a valid point about the split between LibreOffice and OpenOffice. If nothing else, the fork makes it more difficult to try to push either as an Office replacement to new users. Searching for help is more annoying, and they are different enough that you might not be able to apply a solution for one to the other. And yet, they are almost the same in most ways, and it seems there is some effort to keep the two in sync. Given all of that, continuing with the two separate products seems more detrimental than beneficial. Now that the original problem with Oracle that led to the fork is behind us, couldn't we refocus our efforts on a single office software suite?
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I use LibreOffice/OpenOffice almost exclusively, and my experience is that it is more than adequate as an MS Office replacement. In fact, I find Office rather annoying to use now.
I use LibreOffice at home, and it is fine for me. But I can also see how my needs are fairly limited, and a government office may have more demanding requirements. (Not sure if your usage of LO/OO is personal, business, both, etc.)
Now as far as what the city of Frieberg find deficient, the article specifically mentioned performance issues with Calc, and general interop. Intertop will be tough since Microsoft isn't exactly forthcoming with their specs. However, the Calc performance can be addressed.
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Shills? (Score:2, Insightful)
Story is tagged "shills" and "msshills"? If you put the monetary cost aside, how can you still say with a straight face that OpenOffice is superior to MS Office?
Re:Shills? (Score:4, Insightful)
Like this. OpenOffice is superior to MS Office. See, my face didn't change at all.
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MS Office doesn't save MOO-XML (Strict) yet either - and it may never do so. It only manages the "Transitional" format (aka - "a direct XML serialization of the binary structures of the DOC format that we slapped together to let governments who wanted 'open formats' to tick a box")
no vendor lockin (Score:3)
This is huge. The OpenOffice document format is fully documented, so it will always be possible to access those documents.
C'me on, that sounds fishy-fishy-fish (Score:3)
Reading the report, they state that Writer can only be used for 80% of the tasks; Impress and Calc even less.
That sounds very fishy in the ears of someone who has made complete layouts for real books and real publishers (no Internet-crap), of hundreds of pages, including automatic TOC, blabla, plus articles in traditional Chinese and Japanese.
Now tell me, please, what sorts of daily work a municipality needs to do, what sorts of letters need to be written, that can't be written in Writer!? I bet a 5-digit-sum in € that this is simply untrue. I cannot exclude, though, that some templates created in Word cannot be filled in Writer. But then the numbers would be misleading, and some wishy-washy of hands could not be excluded. I correct myself, I take a bet of 6 digits of €, that all writing work of a municipality can be done in Writer, if done in any proper manner; if and only if done from a proper set of basics of OpenOffice. Nobody expects the OpenOffice Writer to run 100% compatible with Word Macros, to give an example.
Invite me, pay me a reasonable fee, and I'll show those half-wits 'wo die Glocken hängen'.
Documents vs Records; the paperless office (Score:2)
The problem is that people fail to understand the difference between records and documents. The transition to effective digital communications is still in process and has some way to go before it matures.
I help attorneys transition to paperless offices and I would make three comments.
1) PDFs are the only fair way to share written and graphic records, yet people continually share word processing documents as records. A record is different than a document. A record might be commented on, but the base informa
Still throws away your work (Score:4, Informative)
Compatibilty itch (Score:3)
This kills a lot of 'alternatives', that people refuse to stop accepting the proprietary standards and paint themselves in a corner of failure.
If you also switch to an open file format, the 'issues' that these alternatives have mostly melt away.
This is not about software quality. (Score:5, Informative)
This is not a technical issue. (Score:5, Insightful)
Exaggerated tales of demise (Score:3)
Why point fingers... FIX IT. (Score:3)
If your software is wonky and un-polished, people that have to use it every day don't care if it's free. They will happily pay for something that works right so they can do their jobs.
They just payed for improved OOXML support (Score:4, Insightful)
Improved OOXML support for LibreOffice and OpenOffice [h-online.com]
Wouldn't it make sense to wait for the results before dropping openoffice?
I recently got a letter at work from Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
I use the bare minimum amount of MS software where I work because it has built in redundancy. If you buy Microsoft Office 2010 chances are it won't open files created with the next version. Libre and Open Office don't seem to share that failing in Microsoft's product. That's why I use them - and I pretty much use them interchangeably because my peeps aren't particularly sophisticated users (nor am I).
So, having MS send me a letter basically accusing me of stealing because I don't use Outlook, Exchange, Office or whatever else they peddle, is pretty annoying. Why would I want to let myself get tangled up in that system?
Ironically, we're coming to end of life with our current accounting software (Sage Line 100) and are due an across the board refresh of the entire system. I was THIS close to buying into Outlook and Exchange and a limited deployment of MS Office because it integrates better (at all) with Sage Line 200 but that letter was a kick in the nuts. I am adamantly opposed to giving them money if that's how they treat customers - and I AM a customer. I've spent some proportion of my tech budget on their OS software, including the bare minimum server OS software to host our Sage installation. I must stress if I could go Linux I would but our accounting software, and in fact no accounting software that I can get local support for runs on anything but Microsoft OS's as clients and more importantly on the server side. There ARE web-based alternatives but they're clunky as hell, expensive and obviously vulnerable to downtime if t'internet goes down,
I'm not a tech guy, I'm an interested in tech guy. IT isn't my job, it's just one of the things I do here. Again, I don't have sophisticated users. Incredibly in a company with thirty people under the roof I am, at nearly fifty, the only geek. What can I say. We get our hands dirty, but Microsoft Office? Not THAT dirty.
Re:I recently got a letter at work from Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)
Telling me they were going to audit me under their Software Asset Management scheme.
Unless you own the company, they are not auditing YOU. They are auditing THE COMPANY.
This means that you should not respond to the request. Give it to the management. Because being audited can cause financial liabilities, this should go through the legal counsel of the company.
Auditing is not for the tech guy. I know this from experience. Bring in the legal people first. With a little luck, you will not see much of the whole process.
Re:Too late (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Too late (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, let's go straight to, "someone was bribed". Whatever you do, don't think about what they said in the article.
What they DID say in the article is that Freiburg is using OOo 3.2.1, which is two-and-a-half years old. It also mentions that the city didn't consult any open source software experts. That may or may not add up to "someone was bribed", but it sounds at least a little bit fishy to me.
The only way for the Freiburgs of the world to throw off the yoke of MS oppression is to support FOSS. And no level of government has any business conducting OUR affairs using propietary data formats that can be easily held hostage.
I get seriously pissed off with LibreOffice, (and with Linux for that matter). But I stay the course because ultimately, freedom requires watchfulness and maintenance, and we'll never be truly free if we give up control and autonomy for the sake of ease and convenience. It's easy to be seduced by the latest bit of shiny, and that's a good part of the reason why our world is so fucked up.
Re:Too late (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm using a 5 year old version of Office and not having problems.
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Mine's ten years old and still useful. Neener neener.
Re:Too late (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yeah? Well I'm using WordStar and VisiCalc! So there!
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Re:Too late (Score:5, Insightful)
Like Office 2010?
Re:Too late (Score:4, Insightful)
I present People's Exhibit A showing why everyone thinks open-source zealots are completely nanners.
The only time I've ever felt oppressed by things MS does is when they do their idiotic "version-specific upgrade" thing, and when they do that, I can always just wait for the next iteration of Windows that doesn't suck. Office in particular is probably MS's best product, and definitely the best of its kind. Anytime I've ever tried to use something that is not Word or Excel, which is frequently because I am poor, I have felt nearly imprisoned by the poor interface, missing functionality, and lack of anyone else to ask when I can't figure something out.
It's good that FOSS exists, because competition is important, libre projects lower the barrier-to-entry for aspiring devs, and computers are important enough that gratis options should be available. However, demanding that others use an objectively inferior product on the ideological basis of opposing the industry standard's producer for the cardinal sin of being and acting like a business is much more like what I'd call "oppression." People don't use OpenOffice because it sucks. Leave them alone.
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I agree. It is a gross over-simplification to make this type of technical decisions solely based on ideology.
Organizations are going to either pay MS for a (debatable) better product, or to technicians to bridge the gap of other solutions. We have to see the whole cost of ownership and the gains and loses in productivity. The case can be made that governments and non-profits should use FOSS exclusively, but they also have to be accountable for the productivity of their employees given their specific work fl
Re:Too late (Score:4, Insightful)
I get seriously pissed off with LibreOffice, (and with Linux for that matter).
So you're using these products not because they make you more productive but because of philosophical beliefs? Fine and dandy if you have the luxury of the time/expense to be able to do that. It doesn't work that way in business.
The only way for the Freiburgs of the world to throw off the yoke of MS oppression...
Plays well to the masses here on /., of course, but this kind of statement does come across as a little extreme to people who don't automatically see big corporations as evil and instead work on dollars and efficiency. (I know, you can come up with all kinds of examples as to why MS is more expensive. You should use those, rather than this inflammatory language.)
And no level of government has any business conducting OUR affairs using propietary data formats that can be easily held hostage.
Oh come on. Do you really think Microsoft is going to blackmail world governments, or leave them without any recourse? Not to mention the fact that there are entire cottage industries that have grown up around the concept of third party interaction with these data formats.
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to act seriously. Don't throw around stupid accusations. (At the very least, you automatically start scaring the lawyers who will see any mention of bribery as libel. Got some evidence? That'd be different.) Don't throw around shrill political angst. And don't tell governments that they positively must use a product, and in the very next breath rail about how terrible it is. That weakens your argument quite a lot.
Re:Too late (Score:5, Insightful)
They don't want control and autonomy. They want their computers to be easy and convenient to use, and they will follow the path of least resistance to that end. They are computer users with a specific job to do, and that seems to be the thing that FOSS developers in general are forgetting. It's a little like expecting airline passengers to make sure all the airworthiness directives on the airplane they are flying in are complied with.
Maybe silent updates would have mitigated this problem.
Re:Too late (Score:4, Informative)
Seriously, how does using MS Office not result in performance impairment frustration and aggravation. Most of my students issues stem directly from use of MS Office. That's all they know, but it's still their main source of aggravation and frustration. From very poor iteration procedures (seriously, you can't force recalculation of cells past a certain point once Excel has decided that it's just done, however many times you try to recalculate), to handling in Word of figures, arbitrary variables (for template automation) to little things like an actually usable mail-merge, or compatibility with older .doc formats MS Office just sucks. The article is disengenuous at best. MS Office has nothing (useful) that OpenOffice doesn't have, and lots of things that it's missing.
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Incidentally, OpenOffice was originally developed in Germany. It was called Staroffice at the time, before Sun bought it and GPLed it just to bother Microsoft.
Re:Too late (Score:5, Insightful)
More likely, the Microsoft-indoctrinated employees don't want to learn a new interface, and have spent the last few years whining about it. This happened to even the M$ lock-ins when Office transitioned to the "ribbon" -- I was having to cover for desktop support during that time, and fielded at least twenty calls a day from people who wanted to roll back to the previous version.
Never underestimate the power of concentrated whine.
Re:Too late (Score:4, Interesting)
More likely, the Microsoft-indoctrinated employees don't want to learn a new interface, and have spent the last few years whining about it. This happened to even the M$ lock-ins when Office transitioned to the "ribbon" -- I was having to cover for desktop support during that time, and fielded at least twenty calls a day from people who wanted to roll back to the previous version.
Never underestimate the power of concentrated whine.
The sad part is that in the case of the Ribbon (from hell), it killed your productivity by destroying all the built-up muscle-memory and use of keyboard shortcuts. Without understanding the "new layout" you had to hunt and peck. Maybe Microsoft focus-group-tested the Ribbon interface, but did they actually pick people who used the current product?
Microsoft research notwithstanding, I have no idea how they could foist such an abomination on their users - I still to this day do not know anyone who prefers the Ribbon over the previous interface -- however, there are folks who don't know the old interface (ie, they're new in the workforce) and accept the shitty Ribbon and live with it less unhappily.
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Hi!
I really like the ribbon, it's a fantastic, (largely) intuitive interface. When I have to use Office 2003 on our Citrix farm, it makes me want to scream in frustration and how badly laid out it all is.
But then I started using it after a number of years away from Office, so didn't have a built-up attachment to the old way of doing things.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:What? (Score:4, Interesting)
The usual problem. Interoperability issues. They try to open MSO files on OO and it doesn't work properly. They blame OO, then, for having adhered to open standars that MS won't adopt in order to create that sort of lock-in and for not having thought of making the necessary adjustments ahead of time (like converting old documents) when you're planning on changing your working platform. It's understandable, but still speaks volumes about their IT stupidity.
Re:What? (Score:4, Insightful)
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I doubt blame has anything to do with it. It cost them too much money/time to use OO. They're switching. It doesn't matter to them why OO costs more to use, just that it does.
I wonder how much cheaper it is for the city to send money to Redmond for licenses than it is to hire a German to fix the file format problem.
Or ... does this city get "whatever you want to pay" pricing because it's an OpenOffice user?
Re: (Score:3)
I wonder how much cheaper it is for the city to send money to Redmond for licenses than it is to hire a German to fix the file format problem.
i suspect the city doesn't want to be in the business of software development.
that, and it's an unbounded problem. they could hire someone and still not have an adequate solution a year later. or they could hire 5 people. who knows? common sense says that if it was an easy problem to solve, the OO developers would have fixed it straight away since interoperability is the single biggest complaint about FOSS office software.
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Yes, it's blame. Things aren't working properly, so you have to diagnose the problem to fix it. They went with "Open Office isn't up to par", instead of the equally plausible alternatives "we forgot about retraining", "we refuse to keep current", "we do not specify document formats to third parties", "out IT department should have thought about these quite obvious caveats and prepared for them".
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Excel will connect to MS SQL Server, Cognos and lots of other products for data and then let you do some transformations on the data on the client
does OO do that?
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Not OO, but libreoffice has plugins to do that stuff.
No one should be using OO anymore.
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Serious question, why do you discount Apache Open Office?
I haven't used it yet, but I was assuming that Apache will fix whatever was wrong with the Oracle Open Office license, and whatever else is wrong with OOO.
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Because all the Devs moved to libreoffice.
Oracle poisoned the name. As we should have all expected.
Re:What? (Score:4, Interesting)
The first thing that was wrong with the Sun / Oracle project was that they required copyright assignment. This meant that they could choose to license the code however they wish
* Reassign the license of the code from LGPL to Apache 2.0
* Sell the code as a proprietary product (StarOffice) without providing source
* Reassign the license of the code to commercial only
etc.
The downside to this is that it discourages contribution. Firstly, people willing to contribute to an LGPL project may be a little lairy of their code being rolled into a commercial product. Secondly, it's a hassle - you have to sign a contract. If your employee lays claim to your output, you have to ask their permission. There's been no sign so far that the Apache foundation have chosen to change this policy. LibreOffice lets you retain your copyright - the happy side effect of which is that the project can now never be "taken closed" like OpenOffice could still be.
Ironically, because of the Apache 2.0 license they have chosen for the code, LibreOffice can roll any good patches in OpenOffice into their project, because Apache 2.0 permits you to add the extra restrictions of LGPL (those permissive licenses, eh?). OpenOffice can't do the reverse. Even if all the core developers hadn't jumped ship (they have), LibreOffice can continue to stay ahead of OpenOffice because of this.
Yes you can connect to databases with OO (Score:3)
does OO do that?
Yes. I use OO to connect via ODBC to our company database daily for financial statements, receivables and the like. Works rather well actually. You can connect OpenOffice Calc (and LibreOffice) to all kinds of databases rather easily.
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
If you think you're wasting time fucking around with formatting in Word, you probably don't want to move to LaTeX. LaTeX is for typesetting. It's sole purpose is for designing how a document should look. All it does is formatting. Conversely, it contains very little to aid a writer in producing or editing the content of the document. The only reason I can think you'd really need to move to LaTeX for is if you have very complex layouts such as those in mathematics textbooks.
Honestly, your wife probably just needs to rethink her workflow. She needs to draft the content without worrying about formatting. Then she should revise it. Then format the document. Then do a final edit. You should never be writing and formatting at the same time. That is a tremendous time sink that tends to produce haphazardly written content with haphazardly presented layouts, and using LaTeX will not help. I had to make this change myself when I started doing a lot of documentation. It is difficult at first, but tremendously improves the quality and enjoyment from writing. In Word, you should just use the default font and headings until you know that the content is done. Use inline footnotes temporarily. Use things like [Insert picture here] when drafting. When your content is done you do layout and make things look good.
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Absolutely true! - I only miss the mod points.
I have tried to use Word for academic papers (or whatnot else), but it just doesn't work (without a lot of hassle). I work in academia and people are sitting in front of Word for three days (we did, few month ago), to format some 12 pages properly. All my suggestions to use anything else were shot down. I was informed that Word was just 'the' standard, and the problems my/our mistake, and so forth. People are willing to spend unlimited amount of time for their b
Re:To all Office Naysayers (Score:4, Insightful)
It's proof of nothing.
All we really have is mindless "fragmentation" rhetoric.
> "does not even have a ribbon yet"
That is only a good thing.
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Because it abandons the idiotic digging through 3 levels of dropdowns into a modal dialogue which obscures the formatting I'm trying to alter, and requires me to jump into another modal dialogue because the thing I want to do has multiple settings. I hated the ribbon when it first came out, I nerd raged about it, then I used Office 2007 for 3 months to learn what my users were going through, and now I look at that menu paradigm and I shake my head at how poorly designed it is.
The ribbon also allows features
Re:To all Office Naysayers (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:To all Office Naysayers (Score:5, Insightful)
Proof again that LibreOffice is no MS Office replacement.
No, this is only proof of the strength of Microsoft's vendor lock-in.
It has been stated over and over again that without exact formatting and file compatibility it will not be useful.
Which it would have, if only Microsoft adhered to standards. Somehow open source software is able to accurately render HTML, PDFs, SVGs, but not DOCs? The only reason this would happen is if someone is playing fast and loose with the specs.
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>if only Microsoft adhered to standards
What you fail to understand is, like it or not, altruistic or not, Microsoft *is* the standard.
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The merit of the software being primarily measured by interoperability with Microsoft Office. That's how strong Microsoft's vendor lock in is.
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If you want people to switch you need to give them a reason.
Cost.
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It has been stated over and over again that without exact formatting and file compatibility it will not be useful.
That would be an argument AGAINST Microsoft Office. All too often is exact formatting precisely the thing you *don't* get when moving file between machines.
Re:To all Office Naysayers (Score:5, Funny)
I have not used OpenOffice nor LibreOffice in a few years but what I do remember is it is behind the times with a menu and does not even have a ribbon yet.
“On the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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I have not used OpenOffice nor LibreOffice in a few years but what I do remember is it is behind the times...
And this gets modded "insightful"? It's been a while since I've used a mac, but what I do remember is that OS9 didn't even support preemptive multitasking...
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Re:Cue the excuses (Score:4, Insightful)
and TFA is even worse...
using OpenOffice for word processing alone is not possible, the council said, adding that they estimated that only 80 percent of the word processing could be done using the open source suite. "With spreadsheets and presentations this percentage is significantly lower,"
if they can't get word processing done in OpenOffice, perhaps they should check their keyboard connections or hire staff that aren't complete morons because they will likely also have difficulties with Microsoft Word
i wonder if they have actually compared the number of developers working on either of LibreOffice or OpenOffice with Microsoft Office. i would think that either of the free office development teams would be comparable to Microsoft's, especially given the lack of financial or geographic restrictions for involvement in FOSS projects.
i know that the real reasons have nothing to do with the software and everything to do with bribery, but surely there should be a trigger at some point for a higher level investigation of corruption
excuses yes, but only on the part of the idiots in the city of Freiburg council
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In powerpoint? Those should be dismissed without anyone looking.