F-16 Engines Stolen From Israeli Air Base 346
Hugh Pickens writes "Defense Tech reports that several F-16 engines weighing 3,700 pounds each have been stolen from a base in a central part of the country. Israeli officials played down the loss, saying the engines were old or retired and likely stolen for scrap. U.S. security and aviation experts contacted were not so dismissive of the missing engines and said that some countries would see value in having them and taking them apart. 'They're still more modern than anything in the Iranian air force inventory, and they would even be helpful to China in their jet engine development,' says Richard Aboulafia, noting that modern technology engine design remains 'a black art' and that competitors would love the opportunity to study them. This is not the first time jet engines have gone missing. In June 2011, Israel reported the loss of eight F-15 and F-16 fighter engines from a base at Tel Nof near Jerusalem when investigators found the engines had been taken away on large trucks, prompting speculation that the thieves had help from inside the base. In 2009, two F-5 engines were stolen from an airbase in Malaysia, tracked to Argentina and ultimately located in Uruguay."
Mr. Fusion ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mr. Fusion ... (Score:4, Funny)
Sorry I had to inform you of all this. It's my responsibility and my burden. Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
Tinfoil Oragami (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe try using a bit less tinfoil next time. The whole roll is definitely too much. If you learn to fold it just right and not wrinkle it you can make a really good hat from a small piece of tinfoil.
Early Lead (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stolen to order (Score:5, Insightful)
If we're so worried about China getting our jet engine tech (and we probably should be), then why is GE allowed to be in a joint Chinese venture to make engines?
http://www.dailytech.com/GE+Announces+Chinese+Joint+Venture+for+Avionics+on+the+C919/article20681.htm
China and Iran don't need any fancy undercover operations - we'll happily shoot ourselves in the foot if it's called business.
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You do realize there is a slight bit of difference between military grade avionics, and commercial ones, right? It's kind of a big difference, in fact, like the difference between an F-16 and a 747. Actually, not "like", that is the difference between an F-16 and a 747.
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I might trust the better commercial ones more than military grade. Most airliners don't have ejection seats for the passengers ;).
Most commercial aircraft don't engage in combat.
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Most airliners don't have ejection seats for the passengers ;).
And parents of squalling babies the world over are grateful for this.
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Yep, instead the passengers die when something goes wrong rather than ejecting.
Re:Stolen to order (Score:5, Informative)
If we're so worried about China getting our jet engine tech (and we probably should be), then why is GE allowed to be in a joint Chinese venture to make engines?
GE has a long history of doing this. They licensed their steam turbines to Toshiba as early as the 1970's (and still maintain a joint venture with them). Then they licensed them to Hitachi. Recently, they have been playing the game with Doosan (Korean multinational).
I wouldn't worry too much about stealing gas turbine technology though. This is basically a mature technology now with only incremental improvements every couple years. If you wanted to play the gas turbine game, stealing an engine or 5 would help, but it would be cheaper and less risky to just send people to the various conferences on such technologies throughout the year. In this industry, the secret design is important, but the manufacturing capability and production engineering is more important. If you just steal an engine you still have a long way to go.
If you were starting a gas turbine program from scratch, you would need a big pile of money (500 million would probably do it), some engineers skilled in thermodynamics, separate engineers skilled in materials, production engineers, etc. You can have GE, Siemens, Alstom, and Rolls Royce's engineers defect to you if you want it bad enough (money and benefits talk loudly in this industry). Then you need to locate a supplier of exotic alloys and large forgings (not as difficult as it sounds), buy some 5 axis CNC machines for airfoils and some larger vertical tables and lathes for the rotors and casings. Get yourself some machinists and millwrights and you're in business. This is out of reach of a small or medium size company, but a Fortune 500 company or medium-size government could do it if they wanted it badly enough.
Re:Stolen to order (Score:5, Insightful)
If we're so worried about China getting our jet engine tech (and we probably should be), then why is GE allowed to be in a joint Chinese venture to make engines?
Because as Lenin said: "Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them"
Rope and commies (Score:4, Insightful)
Because as Lenin said: "Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them"
And how well did that work out for Lenin do you think? It seems to me that the necks of the capitalist pigs are still quite intact.
Re:Stolen to order (Score:5, Interesting)
China doesn't need to get old F-16 engines from Israel. They already got their hands on some F-16s from Pakistan several years back. This is well known knowledge.
China has the capability to manufacture relatively modern jet engines. One example is the WS-10A engine they use in their J-15 carrier jet instead of the standard AL-31F engine used in the Su-27. The J-31 uses smaller WS-13 engines, also used in the JF-17 they sell to Pakistan, which is based on the Mig-29 RD-33 engine. They had several production problems namely in FADEC, turbine blade reliability and production capacity but it seems they have solved them. Otherwise they wouldn't be testing airplanes powered with their own engines on their carrier.
Re:Stolen to order (Score:5, Informative)
- Iran does not have F-16 or use airplanes that use them.
- Iran has access to new Russian jet engines (RD-33 and many other types), American engines (TF-30 turbofan, J79 and J85 turbojets etc.) and french Snecma 9R-50. Also according Jane's defense a Venezuelan F-16 was transferred to Iran for research. They already have 2 F16-A engines in hand.
- Iran produces localized J-85 engines (for their F5 derived Saeghe fighters) and possibly limited number of TF-30 (for their 30 years old but still operational! fleet). They would most probably consider one of those engines for industrial production (as they have 40-45 years of experience with them).
This is a "partial" list of engines available to Iran :
Turbojets:
J85 14kN
Snecma Atar 42kN
Tumansky R-195 (su-25) 44kN
J79 50kN
AL-21F (su-24) 75kN
Khatchaturov R-35,R-29 (Mig23,27) 83kN
Turbofans:
RD33 50kN
TF30 65kN
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So an Slashdot commenter thinks Iran is a neighbor of Israel? Your post should be scored interesting or funny.
2. a person or thing that is near another. [reference.com]
Neighbor is a fairly nebulous term. I suppose it's relative too. For someone living in Jordan, no, they would probably not consider them to be neighbors with each other(Iran and Israel). However someone in Ohio may consider them to be. Just as the same person in Jordan may consider Ohio and Illinois regional neighbors.
Again. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Maybe you should look at the map [wikipedia.org] of operators. We've sold them to half the world at this point, and for good reason: the F16 is a quality plane.
LOL @ Italy (Score:2)
Really? You can lease a warplane? I suppose they bought "gap" insurance too.
please clarify (Score:3, Insightful)
Why's that? Because that technology might make it to a country like Iran? ummm... We have given a HUGE amount of high-tech weaponry (including jets) to Egypt over the years and THAT place is now run by the Muslim Brotherhood which has begun cozying-up to some of the worst governments on Earth (including Iran). Israel is not the only country to let this happen... during the cold war, a Japanese firm intentionally transferred American nuclear submarine propeller technology directly to Russia, which resulted i
Re:please clarify (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not Jewish
But you play an Israeli talking head on the Internets. So I'm guessing Republican?
It's always hilarious to see Israel fanboys equate 'The United States should not be emptying our treasury on behalf of Israel' into 'ZOMG ANTI-SEMITISM!'
Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel has a strong military. Israel has a damned good number of engineering and science folks, to boot.
The fact is, citizens of the US should not be paying Israel's way. That's it. As for the rest - whatever. Personally, I don't give a damn if Israel launches a war of aggression and takes the whole of the Middle East. At least it'd stop our politicians from fucking about with puppet administrations. That's worked out so well for us in Iraq and Iran, after all.
This has happened at least once before (Score:5, Insightful)
So it's not really about Israel, but instead some crooks that just happen to live there.
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Wow. Where to start with that diatribe. While I agree with much of what you say about what has happened in Egypt, accusing this person of being anti-Semitic is pretty darn close to invoking Godwin's law, and highly disingenuous.
Israel, the nation-state, definitely has the whole world in a nice spot. We can't criticize what they are doing, and the fact that they are deliberately inciting the Palestinian people with their actions, lest we be accused if being a Jew-hater or an anti-Semite. I greatly admire
Re:please clarify (Score:4, Insightful)
OR are you just using this incident to disguise a personal predisposition for Jew-hating?
We need to stop conflating not wanting the US to be Israel's bitch with Jew-hating. They are not the same thing. Maybe if we (the US) started making our commitment to their security contingent upon them making peace, they might start moving in that direction. Right now they act like they can do whatever they want, and we will still back them no matter what. This is actually the case, and it doesn't make sense.
BTW, all forms of racism are born of ignorance, so don't think that I'm Jew hating. The world would be a lot worse off if we didn't have them contributing to our collective well being. I just want a rational US policy when it comes to Israel.
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It's kind of hard to move in the direction of peace when the other side has as its main goal the goal destruction of your country. Any time the Jews take one step, the other side wants another and another and another, without themselves giving up anything except a temporary (it's always temporary) halt to attacks on Jewish civilians.
The Jews living in Israel under their own laws is offensive to most of the Muslims in the area. The country MUST become Muslim, the Jews killed, expelled (as they were from most
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Who says it's all one way?
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You do realize they have some better technology than WE DO in those F-16s of theirs ... RIGHT?
Do you have any idea how much Israeli tech we buy and put in our military equipment? Clearly you don't.
Does not solve the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if the US used NO oil at all, we'd still be all entangled in the middle east... because we have many allies who are (and will be for many decades) fully dependent upon that oil. We could be sitting happily in the US with our own oil, coal, nuclear, wind, hydro, solar, etc energy and yet our economy could crash because our allies and trading partners crash in response to somebody like Iran choking-off middle east oil. Even if our allies in Europe got off oil from the middle east and instead got it from Russia, they'd leave themselves vulnerable to Russian blackmail and without a readily-available supply of middle east oil as a backup things would still be a mess. Our Asian allies need it. Even China, not an "ally" but certainly a trading partner, is becoming more-dependent upon middle-east oil (one reason they will feel increasingly driven to build-up a blue water navy) and will therefore make Americans worry about the region even if we do not directly use its oil. Quite simply, middle east oil is a vital part of world markets no matter how much or how little the US uses.
Re:Does not solve the problem (Score:4, Informative)
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But... but... if the Jews don't hold Jerusalem that means Jebus won't come back! Israel must have the full economic and military support of the USA or Jebus will stay away!
Point of information: (Score:5, Informative)
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Hence all the conspiracy theories I'd keep hearing about. Seriously, Illuminati? US Senate are all Jews? What the heck have my country mates been drinking?
Re:Again. (Score:4, Insightful)
Design or buy off the black market? (Score:2)
A lot easier and cheaper to do R&D with a working prototype in hand. Big problem for the US. You can always have the best equipment, but you're also always helping your enemies to catch up.
Re:Design or buy off the black market? (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot easier and cheaper to do R&D with a working prototype in hand.
And it wouldn't be the first time Israel disappeared some foreign manufactured equipment to get it "off the books" only to come up with some derivative internal products later. In fact, they have concentrated on making major components [globes.co.il] for foreign purchased platforms for years, rather than building new platforms from scratch. Most of their tech is derivative work.
It seems just as likely, given Israel's apparent lack of concern over these thefts, that they know exactly where these engines are.
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You have the history of the Phalcon advanced airborne early-warning (AEW at 250 miles?) radar system and China.
Small arms drift off bases around the world every year, getting out with an engine with the surrounding safe transport container/sled structure- not so easy.
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Most of everyone's tech is derivative. But somehow, it's only bad if the Jews do it?
I never meant to imply it was "bad" in any sense of the word.
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Who said anything about Jews?
Re:Design or buy off the black market? (Score:5, Insightful)
My point is that
Israel != Jews.
USA != Christians.
Saudi Arabia != Muslims.
[Country] != [Majority Religion]
You mentioning religion out of the blue when the previous poster said nothing only serves as flamebait.
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[Country] != [Majority Religion]
In the US and some other countries we have separation of church and state. That is not true of all countries. Israel is a Jewish country, it's not just a matter of that being the majority religion. Here's some throne room material to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel [wikipedia.org]
By the same token, Iran is a Islamic country (actually the name isn't really "Iran" it's "the Islamic republic of Iran". Here's more throne room material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran [wikipedia.org]
So my point? He said "Israel" and Isra
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I'm well aware certain nations have an official religion but that doesn't mean that every time we say something about the country we're talking about the followers of that religion.
For example: "Argentina is corrupt and bureaucratic". If I follow your premise [wikipedia.org]
Argentina = Catholic
(therefore) Catholics are corrupt and bureaucratic.
I wasn't trying to say that at all with my sentence. I meant that the Argentinian government functions in an extremely bureaucratic way and has a terribly track record regarding c
Re:Design or buy off the black market? (Score:5, Insightful)
Exercise, let's replace Israel with Liberia [wikipedia.org]:
"Most of everyone's tech is derivative. But somehow, it's only bad if the black people do it?"
"Rarely would someone say something like what the previous poster did without intending it as an insult against black people."
"And I find it interesting that you refuse a link between black people and Liberia, when Liberia was created specifically for the black people, and is officially a Black State" (This one is not really true but I hope it helps further prove my point that the linkage it's completely of your own doing. Not every Israeli is Jewish and not every Jew is Israeli.)
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That the dictionaries still define it doesn't mean that's what people think of when you say the word.
Re:Design or buy off the black market? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot easier and cheaper to do R&D with a working prototype in hand. Big problem for the US. You can always have the best equipment, but you're also always helping your enemies to catch up.
Why is everyone assuming they are stealing this technolgoy to copy it?
The F15 and F16 engines are now 20 years old. You can buy the same level of technology from Russia or India these days. Even China has better engines based on Russian designs.
Occams Razor says that these engines are worth more as replacements for older F15/16's that are owned by countries that cant get new engines/spares from the US or cant afford them (Iran is far from the only suspect here).
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'Better'?
F16's have been upgraded you realize, right? They haven't been using the original design in 30 years. There are at least 4 different engines used in the aircraft that I'm aware of, which means probably more.
WikiLeaks link in the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
Dear Editors:
Thank you for putting a WikiLeaks link in the story summary. I know I could have hovered over it with the mouse cursor and seen where it linked to, but I was expecting an actual news story and not WikiLeaks. You do realize that anyone who works in the Defense Industry, military, or other US Government contracting positions could lose their job over clicking that, right? It's not likely that they would be "caught" so to speak, but I thought this was a news aggregator, and would, you know, have links to the news. Thankfully I am no longer in the defense industry, and do not have to worry about losing my job.
For those of you who are about to freak out on the US Government's rules realize this: When you do work in certain areas you agree to not seek out information that is covered by a "Need to Know." The US Government has specifically said that those who work in sensitive areas are not to visit WikiLeaks, and have warned all employees and contractors. The reason is pretty simple. If you explicitly agree not to do something as a condition of employment, and you do it anyway, then you probably aren't a very trustworthy person. And anyway, I think that a proper news story would have been more informative and read better than a diplomatic cable, or whatever that document was.
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You won't lose your job over clicking a Wikileaks link. More than half the traffic to Wikileaks is from .gov or .mil domains anyway.
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And just how does your choice to work for dangerous, anti-American thugs translate into the rest of the world's responsibility to edit itself?
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You do realize that anyone who works in the Defense Industry, military, or other US Government contracting positions could lose their job over clicking that, right?
Actually, they probably didn't. This is not a well known fact, and considering all of the US's enemies already have that information, it is not obvious to people who don't have a clearance that looking at it would be a problem.
Is slashdot the problem here? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that this reflects a problem on those organizations. Not Slashdot.
My advice, come up with a wikileaks blocker and use it. Why deprive ANYONE else of a link just because?
Another thing. If you're at work, why browse slashdot at work? :P If you're at home, why is it that your employers control what you can or can not read in your house? It's public info.
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lol, actually it is STILL confidential.
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There's probably also a lot of other types of links that can get you fired. It's your responsibility, not the editors.
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For those of you who are about to freak out on the US Government's rules realize this: When you do work in certain areas you agree to not seek out information that is covered by a "Need to Know."
I wasn't about to freak out about the US Government's rules, but I was about to freak out over your complaint on the summary.
Those rules apply to those of you who have agreed to them as a condition to the work you do. It does not apply to the rest of the population. Considering I would imagine the majority of people frequenting slashdot do not share those restrictions, it makes no sense to sensor the site as you propose.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the government requiring that people working in
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Funny -- usually people bitch at Slashdot for linking to crappy blogs instead of the original source.
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why are you accessing slashdot from a WORK COMPUTER, then, smart guy? if you worry about your job, don't do recreation things (like slashdot) from what you say are sensitive systems!
(government geniuses, at work. gotta tell them every last thing or they won't figure out much on their own)
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"The US Government has specifically said that those who work in sensitive areas are not to visit WikiLeaks, and have warned all employees and contractors. The reason is pretty simple. If you explicitly agree not to do something as a condition of employment, and you do it anyway, then you probably aren't a very trustworthy person."
So the simple reason is that it's a purely arbitrary test to see if you follow nonsensical rules?
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money talks (Score:2)
Endemic Corruption (Score:2, Insightful)
How your American tax dollars are spent by Israel.
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Endemic Corruption - How your American tax dollars are spent by Israel.
Fascinating. And you know this how?
You're assuming that those jets were not ones the Israelis purchased [armscontrol.org]? Do you have any grounds for that?
Were these jet engines stolen at an American Air Force base due to "endemic corruption," or the activity of simple thieves?
HAFB THIEVES CANNOT SET THE VALUE OF 3 STOLEN JET ENGINES, SAYS JUDGE [deseretnews.com]
Do you have equal concerns about Venezuela and Iran [theaviationist.com]? Or just the Jewish state?
Do you think Israel is less corrupt, as corrupt, or more corrupt than Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, and
things that make you go hmmm... (Score:3)
hmmm...
Wow those scrappers sure can go to great lengths to fence their scrap!
I'll be watching ... (Score:4, Funny)
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Great News (Score:2)
Remember this is Israel (Score:2)
They have a history of funneling our technology to the highest bidder. My only doubt is usually after they do it they tell our politicians to fuck off or AIPAC will visit your opponent's campaign office next election.
Re:www.FoxNews.com (Score:5, Funny)
Are you suggesting that socialists like me are arguing, that we should all be given F-16 engines stolen from Israel?
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Re:www.FoxNews.com (Score:5, Insightful)
One would think that it's obvious that no one else defends this viewpoint because this viewpoint is manifestly insane, bringing to mind the delusional/hallucinating aspect of psychosis.
Re:www.FoxNews.com (Score:5, Interesting)
Read it. Learn it. Live it. This website will provide you with all the facts and tools you need to solidly refute any socialist debaters who argue we should all be provided government entitlements and destroy wealth by stealing it and handing it out to the underclass. Educate yourself, and those around you. Our way of life depends on it.
Your post is a perfect example of Poe's law. [wikipedia.org] I cannot tell at all whether you are parodying a fundamentalist, or are actually a fundamentalist. Congratulations!
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Re:www.FoxNews.com (Score:4, Insightful)
Faux Noise leads the way in divisiveness in this country. Some dirtbag who was chased out of Australia somehow managed to purchase news media in both the UK and the US, so that he could brainwash masses of zombies into attacking their fellow countrymen. Rupert Murdoch should be executed, along with his top henchmen here and in the UK. Hang them from the Verrazanos Narrows bridge, and let their bodies rot in the air.
Let them serve as an example for all the liberals on the OTHER networks who are happy to promote the divisiveness. They are only little better. Maybe we should hang Hearst and the Turners beside Murdoch, just to be sure everyone gets the message.
Re:www.FoxNews.com (Score:5, Interesting)
stealing it and handing it out to the underclass
Pitting members of the proletariat against one another is a technique known as 'divide and rule', or in this case, 'divide and rule by thieving kleptocrats' .. the basic idea is that if you, say, have two neighbors and you can keep them bickering against one and blaming one another for everything that goes wrong, they won't notice while you rob both their houses (and will blame one another). Well done for playing your part like a good little pawn *pats head*.
The more phony divisions you sew, the better - e.g. pit old vs young (e.g. tell the older generation they're poor because the younger generation is eating Social Security and tell the younger generation they're poor because the older generation are living high off the hog off their labor ... meanwhile both feel poor because you are robbing them both blind, but they will instead bicker and blame one another ... it helps if you can deliberately construct a convoluted robbery system in which there's just enough of a grain of truth both ways for it to seem plausible, e.g. pyramid-scheme-based retirement funds or government debt).
The only "divide" in the country should be that between the moral and the immoral, between thieves and honest folk.
Re:Prime suspects (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me get this straight. They have the engines, and can copy them at will. But they decided to steal the engines from themselves so they can copy them. I see. You, my friend, should cut down on the weed. You and the imbecile that modded you up.
Re:Prime suspects (Score:4, Interesting)
The military has the engines.
Private companies (no direct access) may want to manufacture something similar.
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Can copy them at will? Can you count a few turbofan jets (or even turbojets) produced in Israel?
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I suspect something along similar lines. The borders are simply not that porous. Cover for large trucks roaming back roads is pretty scarce. I would be surprised if the engines are actually out of the country.
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Penultimate... (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously, this is Israel, the penultimate security state.
Which state is, therefore, the ultimate security state? Seriously, penultimate [merriam-webster.com] doesn't mean "ultimate, except with three extra prefix letters of awesome emphasis!", it means "next to last".
Mod me "Obvious" (Score:2, Informative)
USofA
Re:Prime suspects (Score:5, Informative)
penultimate: that word doesn't mean what you think it does.
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Seriously, this is Israel, the penultimate security state.
The IDF is staffed with conscripts. Almost everybody is between the ages of 18 and 22. Almost all officers are in their early twenties. It is not the most competently run organization in the world, to say the least.
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except for the conscription part,
That point isn't a trivial one to be overlooked.
Re:Prime suspects (Score:5, Informative)
You know, Israel actually tried [wikipedia.org] getting into the fighter-aircraft business once.
And I hear it was a pretty good plane, but in the end the US and Israel came to a mutual agreement that's it would be for the best if Israel didn't export a competitor to the F-16 and Israel continued getting subsidized planed from the US.
So I doubt Israel would want to get into the fighter-aircraft business now, and anyway, Israel is doing pretty well on the UAV side of things.
id10t (Score:5, Funny)
If you hover your mouse pointer over the link it will show you the address. I know you are probably new to the internet so I will give you this one for free. The price jumps next time my friend.
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Yes, if you care so much about any random site, you should check the URL. People will not put warnings about every possible problem with every link.
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I'd like to know if I'm clicking on Wikileaks before I click, asshole.
Somewhere there is a database where you were just knocked down from True Patriot to just Patriot . Hopefully this doesn't happen too many more times or you're going to find out what an extraordinary rendition of Beethoven's 10 symphony (The Water Boarding) with a salsa flair sounds like.
Re:Hypocrisy... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think there is a difference between the info wikileaks was leaking (info on past events), and technical data for currently used devices. I would say that if wikileaks were to release plans to the engine in the P51 I wouldn't car at all. It is no longer in use, as it has been replaced by newer tech. I'm willing to bet that there is not a substantial difference between the F16 engine, and the F22/F35 ones.
I wonder how long it would take to engineer and build a jet engine with the info available on the internet about jet engines and various design issues, for example, keeping the inlet air at below super-sonic speeds while the aircraft is flying at supersonic speeds. There was an article on /. a while back about that, and I believe it included basic solution.
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No, some blocks of F-16s use GE F110 engines instead, which are more advanced. The only reason that some C-model F-16s use F100s is because some asshole senator decided it was more important for his district to get money than it was for DoD to save the cost of a second superfluous engine program.
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ifthat'strueyoushouldsavemoretimebyleavingoutthespaces. obviouslyit'samuchmoreefficientuseofyourprecioustime.
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The old USSR's actions were often indefensible, it had nothing to do with Athiests.
Israel's actions are often indefensible, it has nothing to do with Judasim.
Can you see a pattern now, or do you still want to be part of the problem?
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So are they in Syria, with friendly help of our "allies" Qatar, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and heavily supported by the US and most EU Governments, no less.