North Korea's Prison Camps Are Now On Google Maps 159
pigrabbitbear writes "It's been nearly a decade since Shin Dong-hyuk, an ex-prisoner of North Korea's Camp 14, crawled over the electrocuted body of a friend lying dead on a fence, a boundary he was born inside of and lived within for 23 years. He made his way across the Chinese border on foot and was granted political asylum and citizenship in Seoul. Now, thanks to updated Google maps of the region, you can actually (if somewhat loosely) retrace the steps of his incredible escape. Through its Map Maker program, which crowdsources cartographic info, Google has published finer details of some North Korean roads. More notably, it has included shaded-in locations of the country's notorious prison camps. The data has flowed in from a few different sources, including defected North Korean expats now living in Seoul. Geographically-minded tourists and visitors of North Korea have weighed in, and historic map data from pre-partitioned Korea into has also been helpful. (Google maintains that the recent trip to Pyongyang by CEO Eric Schmidt had nothing to do with this project.)"
Old News (Score:5, Funny)
This has been on the iOS platforms since the last update. I asked Siri for riving direction to Sam's Hamburger shack and ended up in a NK concentration camp. Kinda hard to explain to Lil Un, but after a few months I was let go.
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1) There is no god to give out rights. Rights are discussed and agreed upon amongst people.
2) The origin of North Korea wasn't the lack of people standing up for their rights. The origin was the partitioning of the country into to and the subsequent remote playing out of the cold war between the then world superpowers of The USSR and the USA.
It has absolutely nothing to do with your assumed gun rights. Change the tune.
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The truth is, the rights of the people in Korea were gone long before the Soviet occupation of the north - Japan ruled Korea with an iron fist for 75 years before that, and even annexed the peninsula. Human rights were hardly a concern and they were known to torture and imprison anyone that showed any sign of dissent and forced men to do forced labor and woment into prostitution [wikipedia.org]. In a way, Japan created North Korea more than the USSR ever could - all the Soviets really did was prop up the dictatorship and t
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Not even a good straw man. Also, did it dawn you you that perhaps he was referring to the wording in the US Constitution and not paying homage to any theology? That's how I read it, and I didn't have to invent words not mentioned to get my interpretation.
Fucking government shills, I'm sure you get paid well to take it up the ass.. but damn it's not worth it. They don't care when you are dying of aids man, just look around!
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This prison camp is offensive to every civilized person, a place of unbelievable hardship and inhumanity. On the plus side, it has a very small carbon footprint and pretty much everything is recycled.
On the other hand, the reviews look like written by green Apple hipsters.
So who wants to go visit? (Score:2)
I mean I always read about westerners trying to sneak into the country
Must be the awesome there
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You are merely a visitor. I was born in it. Moulded by it...
You are merely a moron, I was born it. Moulded by it...
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and sold it for X5 the cost of takeing out with yo (Score:2)
and sold it for X5 the cost of taking out with you getting $0 out of it.
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He once removed a kidney of mine without using surgical equipment.... three times!
Fortunately there are no germs in NK.
no it's same type of camps the jews where put it (Score:1)
no it's same type of camps the jews where put it
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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I gather there is one church that sends up balloons from south korea, each carrying a bible, designed to deflate and land in the north.
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A great trip report is the Google Talk by Siegfried S. Hecker [youtube.com], nuclear scientist (Los Alamos) and advises the US government on the nuclear proliferation w.r.t. North Korea. And on one of the last trips, they proudly show him what they have.
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I can recall only a couple of cranks in recent years who tried to sneak in for missionary purposes or whatever. However, tourism in North Korea is a pretty ordinary thing, as much as Americans (who would have some difficult obtaining a visa) think it's somehow impenetrable. You fly in from China, are assigned to a group with a minder, and you get a tour of various impressive Communist sites and the North Korea side of the DMZ. You don't get to freely move about, but visiting North Korea holds some attraction for those who want to see the bizarre cult of personality state that it is before it (hopefully) disappears forever. There are myriad blogs on the web detailing people's trips.
There are some more unique ways in. I read a blog about some Austrians that went in via train. NK were not expecting that!
There are more difficult places to go to for those that want the been-there-done-that stamp. Pitcairn Island, French southern and Antarctic lands from a remoteness perspective. From a permit perspective, the gaza strip (as a tourist), and Kashmir I think is off limits too. Not sure how easy Rast Timor is to get to at the moment, or the Tamil part of sri lanka.
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afaik anyone can use the train route to go in as a tourist into NK.
it's just americans who can't.
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Yeah, China is the back door to North Korea just like Mexico is the back door to Cuba. Though I don't personally know anyone that has gone to North Korea, I know personally and have met several Americans that have gone to Cuba through Mexico, many for the diving, which is supposed to be some of the best in the world, despite the fact that under the Helms-Burton act this is a felony (I am fairly sure, as the law is vague and tourism can easily be interpreted as "doing business with Cuba"). What I find funny
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There are some awesome sights there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHMSGQwLPrA [youtube.com]
OpenStreetMap has better maps of North Korea (Score:5, Informative)
If you look at OpenStreetMap's maps of North Korea in comparison to Google, you see that the OSM maps are of much higher quality, as well as being Free (unlike Google MapMaker):
http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlemap&lon=125.7375&lat=39.03865&zoom=12 [geofabrik.de]
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Well - it has more detail. A map's quality is measured by its accuracy, and how much information it conveys. I can't speak to the accuracy of either map, but the Google map is definitely a lot easier to understand - or at least, I can make a lot of implicit assumptions about the lay of the land from the map. Without memorizing what colors correspond to what, the Openmap is a lot harder to understand.
Again, a lot rests on the accuracy of the map (both objectively and what I can implicitly deduce). But purely
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They seem to have - for the most part - exactly the same information. It's just that Google's plotting scheme is focussed on readability (e.g. all roads are the same colour, you have to use labels to distinguish types) whereas OSM is more like your classic Ordanance Survey map. Drag the comparison over to London and you'll see that the same apparent difference in detail applies.
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Here's the same comparison centred over London [geofabrik.de]. It's clearly a data presentation issue, and not a data issue.
Conversely... (Score:1)
(Google maintains that the recent trip to Pyongyang by CEO Eric Schmidt had nothing to do with this project.)"
North Korea maintains that this project has nothing to do with their ongoing development of nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles that can reach Mountain View, CA.
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That would be true if Kim Jong Un were actually in power rather than a figurehead for the ruling party, which is what I suspect he is. There already have been indications that if he doesn't toe the line, he will be ousted by the party.
Check out the reviews for Hwasong Gulag (Score:5, Funny)
http://goo.gl/maps/bVK4C [goo.gl]
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Wow, a username like "futhermocker" and a shortened URL? The mods are sure brave today! Is that goatse they found so funny? Spam site? Someone wanting to drop a virus? No way I'm clicking.that link, what's the REAL url? This isn't twitter, please stop shortening URLs. To link a site, do this: <a href="goatsemalwareuglysister.xxx">really cool pictures of a supermodel </a> so everyone will know it's safe.
Twit. With a six digit URL you should know better.
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Wow, if only there was a URL shortener service that Google ran directly, so you could assure yourself by the URL that it certainly redirected to Google Maps and not a youtube video of a shitty 80's pop song or a man's distended anus or something. They could even use Greenland's country code to make it a nice pun, something like "goo.gl/maps", for example.
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this is why he shortened it, gramps [google.com]
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With a 5 digit URL you should be old enough to count digits properly.
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Is there a reason you and so many other others use goo.gl URL shorteners? The reason I ask is that there is no way for me to know what is at the other end of it and even if I could see what was at the other end of it, the mandatory filter that I sit behind blocks it anyways. It is not like electrons are in short supply or that clicking a 500 character link is any more tedious than clicking a 5 character link; although I supposed it could be argued that if you are moving your mouse to highlight a URL you hav
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Why were they not on before? I was just looking at NK last weak and found in no time the buildings where NK and SK face each other ! And I couldent find that place after looking for 30 min a year ago !
They face each other with guard towers all along their border. There is no ONE place.
You were probably looking for the famous place where peace talks were/are held. see: http://goo.gl/maps/KTRtC [goo.gl]
However, if you look along the border there are dozens of places [goo.gl] where there are military establishments [goo.gl] on either side [goo.gl]
of the DMZ. Many of these face each other. They are usually on every high hill,
Shin's google tech talk (2008) (Score:2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4NIB6xroc [youtube.com]
You know what's not on Google Maps? (Score:3, Funny)
The FEMA death camps that have been set up to imprison free and liberated Americans as Obama's Atheistic Muslim Communist Fascism is implemented in this country.
The abortion-mill brothels will also not be shown. Because Google is in it on it, as is NASA, SpaceX, and Boeing. It's all part of the conspiracy with the Reverse Vampires and Doctor Evil.
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The FEMA death camps that have been set up to imprison free and liberated Americans as Obama's Atheistic Muslim Communist Fascism is implemented in this country.
The abortion-mill brothels will also not be shown. Because Google is in it on it, as is NASA, SpaceX, and Boeing. It's all part of the conspiracy with the Reverse Vampires and Doctor Evil.
Can't tell if troll or if Alex Jones forgot his password.
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It's a troll (or an incredibly stupid attempt at humor) and whoever modded it "funny" is a dork (and yes, I said that on purpose, waste your points modding me down, idiot, so you don't have the points to mod idiocy up).
BTW, the troll wasn't funny but I got a chuckle out of your unmodded comment. I wonder why moderation is so abysmal today, I've seen a "make shitloads of money on the internet" spam twice today, neither one modded down. And they mod that garbage UP!
Did I get on 4chan or reddit by mistake?
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My comment is modded now, but it's "Funny" which is nothing but a signal to other mods to downmod. This should result in a net zero to karma, but doesn't. Whatever. The whole thing is a broken joke, as evidenced by some of the spam that has gone unmodded. The only thing I'll say in defense is that perhaps as a group, people ARE focusing more on upmods than downmods. Was it some of that 'work from home' crap? I generally don't waste points on it. It's obvious and not particularly offensive.
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They've changed it. Funny used to be karma-neutral, but no longer. It surprised me when I saw the change to the faq. Like metamoderation, the old way was much better.
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The juxtaposition of your complaint and your tagline is something I find incredibly humorous. Lighten up, pal.
One Day... (Score:5, Insightful)
When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.
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When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed, the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.
The United States didn't want to get involved in the Germany / Jew issue, either.
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I'm sorry, but the US is not the world's policeman. If there is mass murder, it does not automatically mean that the US has to intervene. If the President had a magic stick that automatically stopped the mass killings without other collateral killings and geopolitical destabilization, then you could make that argument. But the President doesn't have that magic stick, so the benefits and dangers of any type of intervention need to be carefully weighed.
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on the contrary [imdb.com]
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I'm sorry, but the US is not the world's policeman.
Then why does the US constantly try to force it's laws onto every other nation?
The only thing protecting North Korea is lack of torrenting, due to lack of internet.
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The entire civilized world can't do much while China is backing them. Sad as it is, it's not worth a nuclear war.
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there's also the merit of status quo, which is part of why nothing is being done about it.
that is, many north koreans know full well that if the curtain was to come down they would in jail and history books - if they were lucky, if unlucky they'd be executed(and because that's the way they roll in NK that's probably what they believe would happen to them). this is not just one or two north koreans but tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, who would need to be prosecuted. so it is believed that
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so it is believed that if the curtain starts coming down they might try to dispose of the problem by making the camps disappear(by killing everyone, maybe even the staff) rather than face the music.
That worked out real well for the surviving Nazis, I hear.
in any case, some of you may have noticed that China is no longer giving carte-blanche to the DPRK [globaltimes.cn]:
In response to UN Security Council Resolution 2087 which was approved on Wednesday [2013-01-23, China time], North Korea vowed that it will carry out a "high-level" nuclear test. This may not be mere angry words, because South Korea says preparation for North Korea's new nuclear test is already in progress.
Wednesday's UN resolution condemned North Korea's rocket launch in December and expanded existing sanctions. After putting a lot of effort into amendments for the draft resolution, China also voted for it.
It seems that North Korea does not appreciate China's efforts. It criticized China without explicitly naming it in its statement yesterday [2013-01-24]: "Those big countries, which are obliged to take the lead in building a fair world order, are abandoning without hesitation even elementary principles, under the influence of the US' arbitrary and high-handed practices, and failing to come to their senses."
China has a dilemma: We are further away from the goal of denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and there's no possible way for us to search for a diplomatic balance between North Korea and South Korea, Japan and the US.
China should be more relaxed and reduce our expectations on the effect of our strategies toward the peninsula. We should have a pragmatic attitude to deal with the problems and pursue the optimal ratio between our investment of resources and strategic gains.
China can neither take one side of the peninsula conflict like the US and Japan nor dream of staying aloof. We should readily accept that China is involved and may offend one side or both sides.
China's role and position are clear when discussing North Korea issue in the UN Security Council. If North Korea engages in further nuclear tests, China will not hesitate to reduce its assistance to North Korea. ...
China hopes for a stable peninsula, but it's not the end of the world if there's trouble there. This should be the baseline of China's position.
Translation: "We're starting to figure out that there's precious little advantage to backing up NK much longer, and Kim3 is kidding himself if he thinks otherwise."
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The entire civilized world can't do much while China is backing them. Sad as it is, it's not worth a nuclear war.
The entire civilized world can't do much while they are backing China. There, fixed that for you.
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And what would you do about it? Blowing the government up would be easy, but then you have a flood of refugees as the country implodes - local warlords rise to power, starvation, and a general humanitarian disaster. Or you could invade but - as Iraq and Afganistan show - the locals won't be happy. There's a cult of personality at play, and invaders are never welcomed even if they are trying to act in the best interests of the invaded. So then you have a simmering conflict that goes on for years, costing tri
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as opposed to a single warlord, starvation and a humanitarian disaster?
Re: One Day... (Score:1)
This is the country in which people dig up their loved ones and murder their children so that there is something to eat. A place where the populace have been starving to death since 1994. A country which wishes to destroy one of the largest and most advanced cities ever built, then ethnically cleanse their neighbour and soon may have the means to do it. A small country the UN could feed with pocket change.
This could be fixed rather easily as soon as china is on board.
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It would do wonders to remove the fallacy from what you said since there is some truth in it. I'd not be so quick to blame China. China uses the country just like the US uses the country. Both of us use NK to prop up our military industries. Putting China in as the only spoke in the wheel is rather disingenuous. Lots of countries prey on NK. Those same Governments benefit from turmoil in any smaller country *cough Afghanistan* *caugh Congo* *caugh Kenya*, and the list of coughs could obviously get rat
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This account of Soon Ok Lee before the US Senate Judiciary Committee is one of the most chilling things I've ever read:
http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=4f1e0899533f7680e78d03281fe18baf&wit_id=4f1e0899533f7680e78d03281fe18baf-2-1
Some say the world would have acted against Hitler sooner if they knew of the concentration and death camps, but what that transcript describes I don't see as being materially different. The problem of course is that any military provocation would have di
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Revealed? (Score:2)
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I doubt it (Score:5, Insightful)
Typical response: "NK free? Yay! What movie u goin 2 see?"
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The civilized world won't do shit, much less "hang its head in shame." Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.
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Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.HUMANS are.
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Humans are not compassionate creatures, by nature, except the immediate few we care about.HUMANS are.
Sorry, but we didn't rise to the top of the food chain through compassion.
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Actually, we did. Without empathy we probably would have become extinct before agriculture came about. They say that Neanderthals were more intelligent than early Homo Sapiens, and I suspect that Neanderthals became extinct because we had more empathy than them. A succinct line from "Pale Rider": "A man alone is easy prey." Try killing a saber toothed tiger by yourself with nothing more than a spear -- a spear invented by someone else.
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When NK falls and the full extent to which its people have been oppressed is revealed,
Here is a start - from the only person known to have been born in and escape from one of these prison camps. [utsalumni.org]
the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.
I agree. And it isn't just a case of china backing them or seoul being vulnerable. Why aren't we pushing for a full peace treaty - like we've ended every other official war - instead of just an armistice? The whole "the war is not over" thing is the main pillar of NK's pathology. I'm not so naive as to believe a peace treaty would magically make things all lovey-dovey. But it would be progress
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North Korea's conditions for a peace treaty would be this
1) South Korea surrenders all of its territory
2) The new Korea is allowed to nuke Japan in retaliation for occupation
3) If America intervenes in the nuking of Japan, they agree to 5 random cities getting nuked in retaliation for each Korean death
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the entire civilized world will hang its head in shame over how long this abomination has been allowed to exist.
NK is a cult. I'm not sure how you can deprogram an entire country. It is true that dissenters are dealt with harshly, but most people in NK never dissent, not out of fear of punishment, but mainly because they buy into the regime's religion.
There were plenty of "true believers" in the USSR as well.
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No shame. North Korea is propped up by China. Unless and until China changes its mind about supporting North Korea, there is nothing that the 'civilized world' can do that will make the situation any better...except, perhaps...buying less of the 'Made in China' stuff. Moreover, the only thing that China cares about right now is flexing its muscles to take over a couple of small islands that Japa
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Fine... ENLIST (Score:2)
When the US was backing Germany, US volunteers went to the UK to fight on the right side. Men and women who put their lives on the line for what they believed in.
You believe in something? Then put your life on the line. Ah, thought so, life is a bit to comfortable sitting behind a computer spouting morality. Trust me, I know. It is easy to ignore the horrors of the world if they aren't happening to you.
We will all find different excuses for it "one man can't change anything" "I have no power" "the US is n
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You've bought into North Korea's myth of obscurity: the civilised world is in fact acutely aware of the state of the country and it's an ongoing political debate as to what can be done about it. Sanctions only impose greater hardship on the populace and the only thing a war would be guaranteed to do is turn an oppressed population into a refugee one. Worst case scenario, I worry that it would turn into a massacre.
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Re:One Day... (Score:4, Informative)
"As long as I get to be boss, fuck it."
(or something like that)
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There are no rich beyond the leadership, so income disparity is a solved problem.
In other words, income disparity is about as unsolved as it can get and still have a living underclass.
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No-one's picking on you.
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-2, Stupid (-1 redundant + -1 overrated)
Already done, and even the first one to come up with the idea realised how fucking silly it was [slashdot.org].
The US may not be perfect, but you get to eat, people are allowed to speak and move more or less freely, and most of them aren't locked up in camps.
And I can attest personally, the US will actually let you leave if you want.
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The US may not be perfect, but you get to eat, people are allowed to speak and move more or less freely, and most of them aren't locked up in camps.
If you count prisons as 'camps' then more people (per capita) are locked up in the US than in any other country in the world (including China, North Korea or any other totalitarian state you care to name).
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This.
I don't know about other countries, but here in Brazil prisioners have a terrible treatment - and we're not a totalitarian state, we're just nuts who think criminals don't deserve anything.
The difference is that in N. Korea the officers torture, kill and do other terrible things. Here (and in many other countries), the officers don't do anything. The prisioners itself do all the atrocities between themselves. We just dump them in dozens in places where should be only 2 or 3.
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If you count prisons as 'camps' then more people (per capita) are locked up in the US than in any other country in the world (including China, North Korea or any other totalitarian state you care to name).
True, true. But this does not contradict what I said.
(BTW, I should point out that I'm just playing advocatus diaboli here, as I left the States over a decade ago and do not ever plan to return there to live.)
A longer version of his story (Score:2)
I followed the links through to a Guardian review of the book about Shin, only to find "This content has been removed as our copyright has expired." WTF?
Fortunately, the Wayback Machine is a bit more sane and has the full story: http://web.archive.org/web/20120320021739/http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/16/escape-north-korea-prison-camp [archive.org]
Doesn't it bother anyone else that... (Score:2)
The maps for China don't actually align to the satellite image? The maps are reasonably accurate, but they're off by a few miles or so, it looks like. But then the border lines up with the satellite image, and the maps for North Korea, right across the border, line up perfectly with the satellite image. Is it just me? Am I seeing things?
Here's a portion of the border which demonstrates the problem: http://goo.gl/maps/ObMDJ [goo.gl]
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I tried it in chrome, and if you click the map/satellite icon to toggle back and forth, the river quite clearly moves back and forth by about the width of the river. Its easier to see the problem if you go west a tiny bit from China's side of the border where there's visible roads and buildings on the satellite image and the map image shows the same roads but farther east. The landmass on the NK side of the line looks more like a sandbar than an island so its probably less defined at high tide (the map ve
Kimjongilia (Score:3, Informative)
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I second that. Also on Netflix streaming: Walking the Line about 4 American defectors into NK (with primary focus on one).
Then go to the North Korea travel series, done in 3 parts posted on YouTube by Vice.com (search Vice Guide to North Korea).
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Well, he couldn't very well publicize this before his visit could he. Presumably he wanted to come back some time soon.
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South Korea accepts North Koreans. I don’t know all of the technically details but both Koreas subscribe that there is only one Korea which is temporarily split due to civil war. Think back to East / West Germany. Similar setup.
They have programs in place to help integrate them into society.- financial assistance, finding any relatives on the other side, cultural and job training, etc.
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I feel the summary is missing a step. The fellow escape across the border to China and was granted citizenship in Seoul? Is there a step missing where he transfers to South Korea, or did the author get the destination country wrong?
he spent a lot of time wandering around china. remember he didn't know that he could get to s-korea.. or that it would be worthwhile. then got to some embassy and through that to s-korea eventually.
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How come so called "activists" such as anonymous or wiki-leaks don't target North Korea?
What do you target? You have a paranoid leadership who cuts off access to the outside world coupled with one of the tightest set of economic sanctions. Cut off from within and without.
IIRC, (posted on Slashdot about 2 years ago?) even their official country level domain hosting was being done in Spain.
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How come so called "activists" such as anonymous or wiki-leaks don't target [sic] North Korea?
http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:North_Korea [wikileaks.org]
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Perhaps because NK has no internet save for a few places that are highly controlled?
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Completely ignoring the US political staff and other representatives of the US tech sector that took part in the visit, of course.