Unanimous: Provo Utah Council Approves Google Fiber 130
symbolset writes "In a unanimous vote the Provo Municipal Council has agreed to a plan to sell the city's troubled iProvo fiber Internet network to Google. Although this makes Provo, Utah the third city to embrace Google's ambitious gigabit fiber to the home plan the existing network will allow the residents of Provo to see faster installation than the others. Google had previously announced plans to proceed immediately on approval."
They city handed the network over for $1, but there are hidden costs, from the article: "Provo taxpayers will still have to pay off a $39 million bond that the city originally issued to build the network. With interest, taxpayers still have to pay $3.3 million in bond payments per year for the next 12 years. ... The city will have to pay about $722,000 for equipment in order to continue using the gigabit service for government operations ... The city also has to pay about $500,000 to a civil engineering firm to determine exactly where the fiber optic cables are buried ... Google will lease the network to Provo city for free for 15 years."
Google Fiber (Score:5, Funny)
Because it takes a special company to provide 'family size' bandwidth in Utah!
Re:Google Fiber (Score:5, Funny)
I don't get it. Aren't they too godly to watch porn in Utah?
Re:Google Fiber (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't get it. Aren't they too godly to watch porn in Utah?
Funny you should point that out, UT has one of the higher consumption (viewed) of porn.
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Not funny at all, it just makes sense. Much of the Middle East has the same behavioural property. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6592123.stm
People like to have sex, oppressive social obligations or otherwise.
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And occasionally dangerous/deadly the frustrations between them become.
I'd rather live in a society where all weird is celebrated. Repression's a pressure cooker.
Re:Google Fiber (Score:4, Informative)
Pressure cookers have gotten a bad rap from terrorists, but I'll be damned if you can't get delicious food out of them.
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Not to worry, I'm sure our esteemed congressional leaders are fervently working to construct legislation to create laws for background checks and national registries for pressure cookers.
And rest assured, we'll soon make sure there are "reasonable" limitations placed on capacity of pressure cookers too!!
I mean, who realistically needs *MORE* than 4 quarts for a pressure cooker? These h
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Case in point: one of the Boston marathon bombers was upset because his wife wouldn't fist his asshole. The other was upset he couldn't get a girl to shit on his face.
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That's OK because now he'll be getting enough BBC, Big Black Cock, to make up for the lack of fisting and some ATM, Ass To Mouth to make up for the face shitting too.
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...tender pot roast and canned meats?
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Funny you should point that out, UT has one of the higher consumption (viewed) of porn.
Searching for "mormon porn" led me to this page that says forward thinking Mormons are getting around divine providence by using a technique called "bubbling", in which any clothed female can be made to look naked: http://slightlywarped.com/crapfactory/curiosities/2010/mormon_porn.htm [slightlywarped.com]
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On direct TV and dish. Which are somewhat anon at least within their neighborhoods.
Alternative explanations exist.
But no Mormon prosecutor will ever make the mistake of giving the defense license to get these facts on the record again. That _had_ to sting.
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Should have been the University of Utah (Score:1)
Re:Should have been the University of Utah (Score:5, Informative)
If you want SLC to have fiber, talk to the city council. Maybe they'll take up a bond and build it, too.
Re:Should have been the University of Utah (Score:5, Insightful)
Why didn't they sell it to google for exactly what the current bond fees were?
Because then Google wouldn't have taken the deal. To the city, it was like this: they were losing something like $1million every year on the project, it was an albatross around the neck. Now Google says, "Hey, we'll get rid of that $1million loss for you and give you what you wanted in the first place."
Now, the city might have been able to get a better deal, that's what negotiation is about. But in the end, everyone is better off. Everyone is getting what they wanted. Which is how good business works.
Why not sell it to me for a dollar? Or for that matter to another commercial entity, who at least might actually be a little less evil?
Do you really think other telecom companies would be less evil? Really?
Re:Should have been the University of Utah (Score:5, Insightful)
I can tell you one that actually would be. It's called XMission. You've probably used their mirrors before.
XMission is a competitor that wanted to buy the iProvo system but lost to Google. My guess is they lost because the city trusted Google to be more competent with the project, since they'd been hurt by small contractors before (why exactly do they have to pay $500k to find out where the wires are?).
Here is what the XMission guy said about this:
""Even though Google is promising a number of upgrades to iProvo....Those upgrades will be paid for by subscriber fees, and Google will make a profit. They wouldn't be doing this otherwise, nor would I."
What about that sounds less evil to you? It sounds exactly the same, to me, potentially worse.
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That is why the community should own the wires or they should be regulated as a utility. Then access can be leased to competing ISPs.
The UTOPIA project pioneered the model (though they also showed a lot of early mismanagement), but it is now being proven by other communities across the country.
http://www.utopianet.org/ [utopianet.org]
http://www.freeutopia.org/ [freeutopia.org]
Again proving government management = mismanagemen (Score:3)
That mismanagement wasn't coincidental. Government is designed to make and enforce rules. It's not designed launch and run tech companies. Government is supposed to be very fair, open, democratic (slow, ineffcient, slow). That's not the type of organization that does a fiber build out well.
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UTOPIA was not government run, its a private entity. The participating cities just footed the bill in the form of bonds for the UTOPIA buildout. One of the biggest problems UTOPIA faced was the constant legal battles with Qwest(Now CenturyLink) and Comcast over right of way issues. Provo was different in that Provo has their own power plant, which has easements all over the city for power lines. When they installed the fibre for iProvo, they used those easements and just plowed through everything that w
No, it's not private. Who owns it? Who makes decis (Score:2)
it's a private entity
Who owns it? According to UTOPIA.org, 16 city governments own and run it.
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Xmission wanted to buy it. They are a major part of the other fiber networks in Utah. I would say Xmission is less evil than the other ISPs.
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I'm guessing that the bond money was already spent and that Google wouldn't have agreed to come if they had to pay back the bond money.
Yes, it sucks for the tax payers, but at least this way they'll be getting service, even if the money itself was wasted.
Re:Should have been the University of Utah (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does it suck for the taxpayers, though? IIRC (and if it's the same deal here), the lowest tier of pricing is $0 per month after a $30 equipment fee. Everyone in the city would get fast (presumably reliable) fiber-based internet and have an operator with a vested interest in providing good service operating it while paying basically nothing more than the original tax obligation (plus $30/household).
Sounds like a way to make sure the money *wasn't* wasted to me
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They city pays for the entire infrastructure and then once the bond is paid off will have to pay Google for the pleasure of using the service they the tax payer paid for!
That is incorrect. Only about a third of the households were covered. Without this deal the city would have to pay for the expansion to the rest, or admit defeat. Google is committing to complete the network.
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...because they're not paying anything to operate the (still unfinished) network now? The reason the deal went through the way it did is because the city is hemorrhaging cash trying to make the partially-deployed network function. If it was all peachy and everyone was thrilled with the return on investment and the service they were get
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Would you believe that there are parts of the world where getting interest on loans is illegal? They aren't places where I'd like to live, but finding interest free loans can be done.
Re:Should have been the University of Utah (Score:5, Interesting)
Would you believe that there are parts of the world where getting interest on loans is illegal?
Most of the time, when countries try to pass such usury laws, creative workarounds are found (otherwise no one would lend money or be able to get a loan). Europe in the Middle Ages was a great example. Though interest was technically illegal, you could still borrow with interest from Jews and certain Church organizations like the famous Templars (of course, this ultimately led to very bad backlash for both groups in the forms of pogroms, burnings, and other such unpleasantries). Usually they'll just charge you some sort of "administration fee" or "tribute" or some such shit that is basically the same as interest.
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No the customer don't pay for the infrastructure elsewhere.
The government does, though.
Guess you love corporate welfare.
At least the folks in Provo are getting something for their money. Ask Qwest or Comcast what they're doing with the money the government gave them a decade or so ago to improve network infrastructure.
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Do you also have the resources to operate a network that is currently running at substantial loss for the next 15 years? Because that is required by the "lease the network to Provo city for 15 years" part of the transaction.
If you have a $6000 book value car with a $4000 loan on it that requires $4000 in repairs (new engine and transmission, or whatever), you're not going t
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Google gets all the profit and only pays a token amount to purchase it?
Actually, the city basically had to pay to get Google to take it off their hands - note the bit about the $500k to figure out where all the cables were laid.
I suspect that if anybody wanted to pay for the network they would have sold it to the highest bidder. From the description it sounds like the project was mismanaged and they don't even know where the cables were placed. There might even be regulatory liabilities that anybody taking ownership would incur.
Imagine you have a house that you could sell fo
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Because Provo already built out large portions of a fiber optic network. That's where the $39million bond comes from. However, they were having trouble administering it, and were losing a lot more money every year. What they are basically saying is, "here, take over this project for us and you can have all the profits." The city wants fast internet, and Google wants to make money providing it. Wikipedia has more info.
If you want SLC to have fiber, talk to the city council. Maybe they'll take up a bond and build it, too.
Though at the end of 15 years, or long before that, the network will appear to be too slow and overburdened, because of web bloat, streaming media, tracking, MMO games and spying on everyone with cameras and the natural progression of technology.
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Google: All your bits are belong to us!
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AYB is never going to get old!!!!
I bet 10 years from now if you say "Harlem Shake" people are going to think you are talking about a street dance rather than an Internet meme.
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Now, well, yeah. I can't even keep track of knowyourmeme.com anymore.
incompetence (Score:5, Interesting)
The city also has to pay about $500,000 to a civil engineering firm to determine exactly where the fiber optic cables are buried...
Wtf, don't they have the installation project plans in the first place? This is the kind of incompetence that really pisses me off.
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Plans aren't always what I would call EXACT. They are what they say just plans.
Plus it's a lot easier to tell your crew dig the blue line not the red line.
It sounds like a lot but if they followed the plans they would still have several boo boo's that would probably have a damage valuation of 500k.
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plus even if you have plans accurate to the inch you have to deal with the ground shifting about. you put the cable down this line 3 years ago?? the whole line has shifted THAT WAY by 3 feet.
Remember kids the Call Before You Dig Hotline is 811 (or consult your local yellow pages for "utility locating services")
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Do they do anything more than just paint where the lines are supposed to be? Do they do anything to try to locate the actual lines? (Which, in the case of fiber or those crappy plastic plumbing lines the local water company installed, I presume would involve actually digging for it.)
Re:incompetence (Score:5, Funny)
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Decades ago I worked during the summer for the water department. One of our jobs was to find and mark water lines. We actually did use divining rods. No stick with a fork, though. Ours were two pieces of wire, each bent to form an 'L'. You loosely hold the shorter side, keeping the longer sides parallel to the ground and initially to each other. As you pass over the water main the wires cross. It worked quite reliably as long as the water main wasn't too deep. I always assumed it had something to do with ma
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All dowsing/divining rods are bullshit. Ideomotor effect + confirmation bias.
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Decades ago I worked during the summer for the water department. One of our jobs was to find and mark water lines. We actually did use divining rods. No stick with a fork, though. Ours were two pieces of wire, each bent to form an 'L'. You loosely hold the shorter side, keeping the longer sides parallel to the ground and initially to each other. As you pass over the water main the wires cross. It worked quite reliably as long as the water main wasn't too deep. I always assumed it had something to do with magnetism.
I know someone [randi.org] who would pay quite handsomely for your services. As long as you can do this reliably, that is.
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Perhaps it was all bunk, but I think one does need to keep in mind we were not looking for underground water. We were looking for iron pipes that just happened to be carrying water. If this is the only concentration of iron in the area it's pretty clearly going to have an impact on the magnetic field in the immediate vicinity. If metal deposits can have an impact on magnetic compasses, it doesn't seem too far fetched for them to have some effect on steel rods that may have a slight magnetic or static charge
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CC.
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Because hiring civil engineers is more expensive than outsourcing to a firm. And with outside firm, you'll effectively verify what your internal IT people know all along. Nobody believes internal IT people for some reason, but outside consultants telling the same exact story as internal sources makes it more believable.
Yeah, we're dealing with that now. It isn't incompetence, it is people in decision making positions, knowing nothing about IT. Ignorance is not incompetence, though they often look and result
Re:incompetence (Score:4, Interesting)
My old boss always said "you cannot be a prophet in your own land."
I am reminded about the time the two of us were pushing for this new thing called the "World Wide Web" or some such. Administration in the college said that it was nice, but gopher does all we'll ever need.
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It's called an audit (Score:3)
Nobody believes internal IT people for some reason, but outside consultants telling the same exact story as internal sources makes it more believable.
It's called an audit. You bring in outsiders to verify what the insiders are telling you is the truth. If I'm a third party making an investment, I'm not going to rely on the good word of the people I'm buying from when millions of dollars are at stake.
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It cannot be an audit if it hasn't happened yet. This is in planning (before implementation) stage. Last time we had an outsider come in, his recommendations were more expensive than internal IT's because a couple of their assumptions were flat out wrong. And the cost of the consultant (his fee) would have paid for about 1/2 of the difference between IT's recommendation, and the consultant's. How is that efficient?
Oh, BTW, they are about to have another consultant come in and make the same recommendations
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This is pretty common, actually. Accurately mapping the position of every bit of line or piping isn't practical in the real world.
Plans often don't match reality (Score:5, Interesting)
Wtf, don't they have the installation project plans in the first place? This is the kind of incompetence that really pisses me off.
Project plans frequently do not accurately document where the cable was actually placed. My father worked in engineering for AT&T for several decades planning jobs like this. He always had to go check what the plans said against what was drawn on the engineering documents. What the guys in the field do often does not match what the engineer designed. Furthermore since Google is essentially buying this cable they need to audit what they are actually buying. When you are investing millions of dollars you don't take anyone's word for it, you have someone go out and check to see that the actual infrastructure is something close to what the plans say it should be.
This is exactly the opposite of incompetence. This is exactly how a rational buyer should behave when buying an expensive asset.
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They paid $1.
They're going to be spending a LOT more than $1.
Re:incompetence (Score:5, Informative)
The only incompetence is your understanding. Out here in the real world things change in the field. That's because when the plans say install the line 1' off the sidewalk but as they start installing it they find the gas line is in that exact location they do some quick test holes and make a field change to move the wire to different spot.
This is why in civil engineering you have plans, and you have a second set of plans called As-Builts, because how it was built often has serious variations form where it actually was shown to be built. I've seen utilities on the opposite side of the street, Buried 10' deep when they are supposed to be 18 inches, I've seen them follow a relatively straight line then jog 20' off for 10' then jog right back.
See in the real world when you go to bury something you don't always know what you are going to run into. There is all kinds of stuff out there that's buried that no one knows is there and sometimes people don't even know what it is. I've stood in front of excavations staring at pipes that no one has any idea what it is, it's not on plans, city maps or even acknowledged by the dig locating service. I've also seen them run into buried rail lines, coffins and all sorts of things that would make your head spin. I've seen lines that were installed exactly as shown, but the road and homes that delineated it's location are gone because they were torn down and a shopping mall was built in their place. Real world buried utilities is very very hard and your an idiot for thinking it's easy.
Oh and $500k is CHEAP for a subsurface utility investigation on a city the size of provo.
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The only incompetence is your understanding.
Thank you for the ad hominen.
[...] and you have a second set of plans called As-Builts
Exactly, and it is incompetence to not keep them.
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"Oh and $500k is CHEAP for a subsurface utility investigation on a city the size of provo."
Yes, but is it dirt cheap?
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Nah, but they do have routing loop issues from houses having multiple lines.
Like they'd turn it down... (Score:2)
Really, Provost Utah voted to accept Google fiber.
Was there ever any doubt that they would?
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I doubt there was, especially given that Google doesn't just choose cities at random, the cities have to put in a proposal of some sort. I'm sure technically they could have said no, but if it was unanimous, you can be pretty sure that the odds were indistinguishable from 100% that it would be accepted.
I do hope that they eventually get to Seattle as we have a crapload of fiber just sitting around and the incumbents don't seem to be particularly interesting in giving us fast speeds at any price.
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Not quite a fair deal (Score:5, Informative)
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He's talking about google's standard buildout fee, which is $300 in their other 2 cities. But he's not really correct. With 32k households in the city, the $39M debt spread across that comes to $1200/houshold
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$30 for existing iProvo customers and $300 for new customers, if I understand right. Not a bad deal either way.
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Yes it was, and yes they are. I wonder if Google is using this as an experiment before buying all of UTOPIA?
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I won't dispute it being a good deal. However, residences only get 7 years free, the city is getting 15 years at no cost.
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It's likely they would have to do this anyway, for a good portion of the network. Even if you think you know exactly where a cable is, before you start digging to extend the network you have to locate it and locate any other utilities around it. One of my clients has done all kinds of pipe and cable laying across the U.S. When he explained the process they had to go thru to push a new fiber conduit in to a telco exchange in LA, I was like screw that. They were pushing a few hundred feet of pipe past thousan
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One mistake and you cause a national communications blackout.
Or worse, you kill somebody. This [kshb.com] was caused by a sub contractor for Time Warner installing fiber to a new office building.
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We'll take $25k off your bill if we don't need to document where we buried the cables
Sounds good to me
sigh of relief (Score:1)
We are Unanimous. (Score:2)
Don't expect us.
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Some of us geeks prefer being in the boonies.
So.... (Score:1)
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Wikipedia says that Provo's population is 112,488. If you include surrounding communities it's 526,810 (but who knows how many of them would be reached). So, still not so good.
Google Fiber in Provo? There IS a good reason. NSA (Score:3)
Provo will be an interesting case study (Score:2)
The existing Provo network is buried. You can bet that when Google finishes the job, they'll be doing it by hanging fiber, not burying it, as they are for their other installations. Provo will likely be the only hybrid Google Fiber installation for some little while. It will be interesting to see what the differences are in service availability between buried and hung in the same city.