Microsoft Prepares Rethink On Windows 8 536
jones_supa writes "Microsoft has confirmed to be preparing to reverse course over elements of Windows 8. 'Key aspects' of how the software is used will be changed when Microsoft releases an updated version of the operating system this year, Tami Reller, head of marketing and finance for the Windows business, said in an interview with the Financial Times. Referring to difficulties many users have had with mastering the software, she added: 'The learning curve is definitely real.'"
While this decision is generally being framed as a frantic backtrack for Microsoft, it comes as the company has recently passed 100 million Windows 8 licenses sold. Clearly they see this as more of a course adjustment than bailing water from a sinking ship. Microsoft also plans to preview the update called 'Windows Blue' in June.
The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Interesting)
...prediction: They'll lash in a start button but still try and force the user to go through Metro first.
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Maybe in the "Enterprise" version, where corporations will either get such an option or they'll stick with Windows 7 until the end of time.
OTOH, for ordinary users, they've kind of made it clear; they want everyone in consumer-land to get used to the whole Metro (or whatever they call it now) thing.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Insightful)
"OTOH, for ordinary users, they've kind of made it clear; they want everyone in consumer-land to get used to the whole Metro (or whatever they call it now) thing."
And the users have made it clear, Microsoft can fuck right off. No really, people I talk to that are not at all computer savvy have heard "the new windows" or windows 8 sucks, and are in some cases actually buying used computers to avoid Windows 8.
Ditching forced Metro & adding the start button is probably all Microsoft has to do to assuage these fears, and it was IMHO sure egotism that prevented them from doing this to begin with.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Informative)
Hopefully they'll have a 'boot to desktop' option
Windows 8 already has one, it's just that nobody seems to know about it. All you do is move the desktop card to the top left hand side of Metro. Whichever card is in that position will be launched after booting.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Informative)
What's in Windows Blue (6.3) at the moment:
- There is an option to log in straight to desktop, skipping the (Metro) Start screen.
- There is a start button (using the new Windows logo, reminiscent of an earlier alpha build of Windows 8): but it takes you to the Metro start screen when clicked.
- The start menu is still gone.
Oh, and they're planning to charge for this "upgrade". What the fuck? They should give it away given how disastrously Windows 8 has been received...
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not good enough. The Start menu has to return; that was always the sticking point, not the replacement of the button with a hot corner. And I never want to see any part of Metro at all.
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That's not good enough. The Start menu has to return
No, it doesn't. Microsoft doesn't have to do anything. Haven't you figured that out yet?
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not good enough. The Start menu has to return
No, it doesn't. Microsoft doesn't have to do anything. Haven't you figured that out yet?
I do not think Microsoft is as arrogant as people on this very anti-MS site make it them out to be. They have a corporate culture of release first and ask questions and fixes later. This is due to MS past as a monopolist. If it is ok it will take over the market. If it sucks then fix it next release after it has baked a little bit etc.
1st versions ... failed ... failed (Mac users are oddly what kept Excel alive in the earlier years) ... failed ... failed ... failed ... failed ... failed
Windows
Office
Windows NT
Internet Explorer
WindowsCE
Vista
Visual Studio
All these products are the hallmark of what MS is today and bring in the revenue. So they assume once it is out they can improve as people will automatically use just because it is from Microsoft. They are sadly still right in this area. Microsoft assumes oh, next release we will tweek it and Apple will be out of business next.
What bothered me most about Windows 8 is that METRO had HUGE potential but it was so fucking rushed. If Metro had a task bar, start menu, had app stacking, more than 1 app at a time, aero to navigate, then I could multitask with the applets and keep my mouse and keyboard. On touch or a small 12 inch screen then auto-hide by default and BAM!
Even better if they couldn't add that do something like "Click here to start! which told lusers where the start menu is instead say "Click here to app cycle" in the corners. Windows 95 had the polish. Windows 8 did not.
Instead they made it 4 colors from 16 million, made Office 2013 blinding headache white in ALL CAPS, took areo out, and just unpolished it. What MS is making a mistake is the market is not the same as it was in the 1990s. No we are not little good sheep and our bosses who forced us to upgrade very 2 - 3 years for the greatest have a love affair with the 11 year old XP and refuse change out of fear! Windows 7 is like pulling teeth with these same users who came to XP in droves.
Apple has the mindshare with Google right behind. If tablets are going to take over the only advantage MS has is office and it was smart for MS not to port Office over to Android/iOS as it would all be over for them. MS needs to react quick and fucking polish like they did with Windows 95. Not do the old way because it worked before and we wont change motto. That start menu will be coming back. The demo artist shot of Windows 8 from 2009 is still superior in so many ways and MS has its work cut out for Windows 9.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsofts snot does not always turn to honey.
Zune ... failed
Play4Sure .. failed
WinCE .. failed
Win8 Mobile ... failing
WinRT ... failing
Surface ... failing
xbox/xbox 360 ... if you uncook the books and stack up all the costs and losses releated to the xbox line they are still a decade from turning a profit.
search ... still losing money after more than a decade.
MS is sure their future in the consumer market is tied to the 30% take the get with an app store. This means
1. The Modern Intreface must be maintained.
2. The legacy desktop and non-app store installation must go away.
3. The start button must go away to facilite point 1 and 2.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Insightful)
What's your point? All these big companies have a long long list of product failures, here's just a few from the portfolios of some of the big ones:
Apple:
Lisa: failed
Pippin: failed
QuickTake Camera: failed
eMate: failed
eMac: failed
eWorld: failed
G4 Cube: failed
Macintosh TV: failed
Macintosh Portable: failed
20th Anniversary Mac: failed
Ping: failed
Every second OSX release: fails (the Windows SP1 rule)
Google:
Hotpot: failed
Buzz: failed
Answers: failed
Page Creator: failed
Desktop: failed
Dictionary: failed
Audio Ads: failed
Dodgeball: failed
FastFlip: failed
Wave: failed
Google+: failing
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:4, Informative)
Failure by what metric? Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world, Mac sales growth is oustripping Windows/PC in percentage terms and have been for about 5+ years now.
Not everybody drives a Ferrari, yet they aren't failing either. Apple don't have to outsell the PC to "succeed".
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So which of them are the failures of Linux?
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Funny)
I do not think Microsoft is as arrogant as people on this very anti-MS site make it them out to be.
Of course they are.
It takes an ego massive enough to bend light to release an update named "Windows Blue" without realizing the next two words in everyone's heads will be "screen" and "death".
-
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The problem is that powershell is in an awkward place between languages like perl/python and shell scripting.
The pipe might be simply the string you see, or it might be a stream of objects that are being formatted, and that reality is generally not clear at a glance. In bourne shell, it's pretty much always what you see is what you get (for better or for worse). Once understood, this *usually* provides the programmer more power when they test to determine what the stream will look like, but it's still inc
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Interesting)
I must be the only person who actually prefers the metro menu thing. I don't think I could go back to the small and horribly ordered (unless you spend the tedium of organizing it constantly) menu again. I like having all my main programs organized and displayed prominently. The metro screen is the best thing they did in Win 8, really (outside of making SD and Network transfers less idiotic).
Metro apps are still mostly crap, and they still need to make the whole OS feel less "tacked on", and work on UI and app consistency, though.
If this update is $15-20 I'll grab it. If not... I don't mind Win 8.
Re:The betting pool is now open... (Score:5, Informative)
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My bet is that they'll include the start button and other missing elements and label them something like "legacy mode" so it seems like they still back their metro mistake but were kind enough to care about "old farts who are incapable of understanding the obvious superiority of Metro" (paraphrased).
good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
Start screen has never bothered me, as whenever I used the old start menu, all of my attention was focused on it anyway. For me, having a start screen just means that I can display more icons at once, which is a plus. I would love a boot to desktop mode, though.
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Start screen is the issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Against my advice, my parents bought a Windows 8 machine so I've had a fair bit of chance to play with it and to hear from a couple of "typical" computer users what their experience with Windows 8 is like.
Everyone who has used that machine *hates* the start screen. While one would think you can "fit more" than with the start menu, in practice what you have is the ability to show or hide the sub-menus as groups of icons. Once you tell it to show stuff you actually *want* (like Games), the start screen rapidly becomes 2-3 physical screens wide. So now not only do you have to drag your mouse all over the place to reach the icons/tiles, you have to scroll the screen/menu to reach them.
My Dad is particularly frustrated with Windows 8. As far as he's concerned, nothing works right except Firefox, and even that ticks him off because he has to scroll all the way over to the right on the start screen to find it's icon.
My Mom is ticked off with the Metro interface on her card games. The "click top and drag down" metaphor for shutting down applets is not intuitive, and without a touch screen, it's also difficult to use. Mom has always had difficulty with "click and hold" aspects of applications because of her arthritis. Most of the time she just gives up because she can't hold the mouse button down long enough to drag it to the bottom of the screen.
Personally what I hate is that there is no actual "windowing" of Metro apps. Everything is full screen. I haven't worked with full screen apps since the days of the 80x24 green screen terminal. I need to be able to access multiple applications at the same time. And the flash from work screen/desktop to start menu literally gives me a headache (I get migraines regularly, and eye strain from this type of interface aggravates them -- I despise Gnome 3 for the exact same reason.)
Windows 8: Epic FAIL!
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A friend of mine bought a new laptop after using XP for 10 years. She hated Windows 8, so I let her borrow my Windows 7 laptop until she can find one. She likes 7, and I would imagine her sentiments are quite common. I like 8, but I can understand the frustration some people have with it, especially after watching her try to use it. I would not be surprised at all if Blue allows you to run 8 much like 7 since there must be a lot of people like my friend.
Re:good (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, I went back to Windows 7 because I didn't like the constant switching / start screen.
The thing was that the start menu really was nearly entirely obsolete. None of its features really made sense.
Want to run a command by typing its name name?
Win+R, type away
Want to actually search for something? The start screen makes more sense then the smallish non-resizable start menu window.
Want to get to the control panel, logoff, etc? The charms bar was perfectly fine (if nonobvious). And has a hotkey of its own (again non-obvious)
The actual hierarchical start menu? Worthless legacy cruft that has been more or less replaced by search anyway.
All that was left was the smart recent applications/recent documents stuff which was almost covered by pinning apps to the taskbar.
To 'fix' windows 8, I'd
restore the start menu button (hot corner makes no sense)
When the start menu pops up, you get back the smart 'recent applications / recent documents', and the ability to pin applications to it, and the search box.
Except the search box is simple, only looks at program names, and document filenames. That's it. It doesn't look at email, or inside documents, or music... for deep searching for that, I'll use the start screen search, or even more likely the dedicated application anyway (for email, music, photos etc)
And a button to bring up the full start screen.
And another one to bring up the charms bar.
And make shutdown a direct option so you don't have to logout first, but that can be on the charms bar... i don't care. I don't shutdown more than once a day anyway, and many shut down once a week or less.
Then make hotcorners entirely optional in desktop mode.
That's really it. No "All Programs --> " on the start menu. if you need something from that go into the full start screen. No "Games" or "Music" or "devices and printers".
The resulting "start menu" is just a little taskbar gadget for quick search and application launching.
my 0.02
Re:good (Score:5, Informative)
The thing was that the start menu really was nearly entirely obsolete. None of its features really made sense.
To a uber-geek - perhaps. But not to a common man. Start button replacements are, reportedly, the most popular download for Win8. Otherwise Win8 is not discoverable.
Want to actually search for something? The start screen makes more sense then the smallish non-resizable start menu window.
Unless you are searching for something that you see in another window. Do you want to memorize "StatusReport-836421-FromBill_Rev3a.docx" ? It's a valid runnable object.
Want to get to the control panel, logoff, etc? The charms bar was perfectly fine (if nonobvious).
A nonobvious thing is also nonexistent. It doesn't matter how well it works if non-geeks cannot find it.
And has a hotkey of its own (again non-obvious)
It does? News to me. Which one? How would I know that, outside of reading Slashdot?
The actual hierarchical start menu? Worthless legacy cruft that has been more or less replaced by search anyway.
Q: What do you type to find uTorrent?
A: You type "torrent."
Q: How would *anyone* know that?
A: By trial and error.
Myself, I use more than one computer, and I do not always know what is or isn't installed on any of them. I cannot search because I don't even remember all the names. Was it "diff", WinDiff, KDiff, or something else? Ah, UltraDiff - but no, it doesn't do what I thought it does! Why don't I make a custom menu where I'd keep all the necessary tools that I need, and call it something like "Start" ?
All that was left was the smart recent applications/recent documents stuff which was almost covered by pinning apps to the taskbar.
I disable all that stuff. It makes no sense to me. I may use one set of applications on one day, and another set on another day. What recent activity has to do with the need for a specific workflow? I disable automatic pinning, and instead pin there what I want pinned, and they stay there. Side effects are bad for usability; a context-dependent ribbon also suffers from that - it is not predictable, it has to be understood all anew whenever it shows up.
And make shutdown a direct option so you don't have to logout first, but that can be on the charms bar...
It's already there. But I can't test because I have ClassicShell disable the charms bar. I haven't needed it so far.
Then make hotcorners entirely optional in desktop mode.
Done that already using ClassicShell (also see above.)
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To a uber-geek - perhaps. But not to a common man.
No, you missed my point. The features the common man used the start menu for weren't the primary function of the start menu.
Start button replacements are, reportedly, the most popular download for Win8. Otherwise Win8 is not discoverable.
Precisely this. And its what I meant when i said various things were non-obvious. For the most part, Windows 8 has the necessary functions in reasonable places, but not only are they radically different from what they were
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
The actual hierarchical start menu? Worthless legacy cruft that has been more or less replaced by search anyway.
Not worthless. Search assumes you know what you want to search for and have some idea about what it is called. If I know I want to use one of the administrative tools but I can't remember what it is called, a hierarchical system makes sense. I can choose "administrative tools" as a starting point for self discovery. If I have no idea, I can start at the top and work my way through the options that have been categorized in some meaningful way. If I am in a branch of the hierarchy that is unrelated to what I am looking for, I can move on quickly -- I don't have to scan an unorganized list of all the possible options.
My biggest complaint (and others share this view) about Metro is that the interface is not self discoverable - you can't just look at the interface and get visual clues as to what you need to do (or even can do). Lack of a hierarchical menu system that contains all the options is a big part of this.
Re:good (Score:4, Funny)
The actual hierarchical start menu? Worthless legacy cruft that has been more or less replaced by search anyway.
Who needs a hierarchy or a TOC? That sounds like a great idea for our user manuals! They're searchable, after all...
*starts email to share revelation with boss*
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The thing was that the start menu really was nearly entirely obsolete. None of its features really made sense.
...
Want to [do something you can do from the start menu]? [Carry out procedure n]
That doesn't sound like an obselete thing to me, because you suggest that the described features do make sense. It just sounds like there are multiple ways to do these things. I like the idea of having multiple paths to get something done, but I also like the idea of having a single path that can be used to do many different things — menu systems have this ability.
Re:good (Score:5, Insightful)
Searching for a command/program/document you don't know the name of is like looking up how to spell words in a dictionary .... it's possible but awkward
If I already know what I am searching for then it is quicker, but if I don't ..... so it's not really a search but a quickfind ?
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In Win 7 desktops, I can generally type what I want to find and it will show up on the list. In Win 8, despite having more real estate they are more stingy with it. Search for 'update' and you get 'No apps match your search'.
But do you really want every email you ever wrote with the word update returned? Every PDF file that mentions the word? Every source code file?
One of the things I don't like about Windows 7 search is that if I type the first few letters of notepad... It finds notepad, notepad++, StickyN
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If I wanted to scan screens worth of colored squares to find things, I'd put everything on the desktop as an icon. I don't because there is no hierarchical structure to it.
Have you used windows 8? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? These are screenshots of the Start Screen All Apps view:
http://omnitechsupportripoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/windows-8-start-screen_01150911.jpg [omnitechsu...ripoff.com]
http://trekker.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/02-windows8_start_screen-all_apps.png [trekker.net]
http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-content [ghacks.net]
mature response to a corporate stumble (Score:5, Insightful)
I am no Microsoft fan however I am glad to see them responding to customer feedback on their product. IT is good to see large companies shape products based on customer response - particularly when they command a very large share of a market.
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If they really want people to 'upgrade' from XP, shouldn't they make an in-place upgrade possible?
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It was nice to see them follow up Win7 with a new direction. We don't need endless cycles of more of the same. On the other hand it's also nice to see them respond to feedback. Metro is great for a lot of things but some people just can't let the start button go.
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Re:mature response to a corporate stumble (Score:4, Insightful)
Change for the sake of change is not a rational nor beneficial paradigm.
Know what else hasn't changed much over the aeons? Bacteria. Sure, they have a chemical arms race with each other, but the basic package? Been basically the same for hundreds of millions of years, because it is the best at what the germs need to survive.
Simply because something "has been around forever!" Does not mean it should be abandoned.
Perhaps a different quote is needed? "If it isn't broke, don't fix it." For MANY users, the start menu is NOT broken. There is no need to "fix" it, outside of the arrogance of self important design idiots, who feel that UIs should change like yearly fashion trends, and for the same reasons.
Newsflash. Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is the wrong tool for the job, nor does it mean holding onto it is wrong.
Just take the CLI out of a mainstream linux, and force the GUI experience 100% for all tasks, and state blithely that "some people just can't let go of the command line". Watch your userbase run for the hills.
For a company who's tagline is "where do you want to go today?", they sure have a strange way of listening to the answer to that question.
The userbase has clearly and definitively spoken on the issue.
Asserting that the userbase is wrong/afraid of change/some other canard is completely wrongheaded.
Either give your customers what they want, or they will find somebody else who will.
Re:mature response to a corporate stumble (Score:5, Insightful)
Do tech support for your mother in law. Then you'll see just how critically important a start menu is.
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But they're using the corporate line that more PC makes should be using touch screens to show off Windows 8 better. Which is a stupid excuse, since the entire world isn't going to get a new PC just because of Windows 8, and they're certainly not going to buy the very expensive touch screen capable ones. The issues still remains that Metro is a silly and clumsy UI to use on real world computers in actual use today.
Re:mature response to a corporate stumble (Score:4, Interesting)
To be fair when people did not like where Gnome and KDE were going they had the choice to pick up where they left off and roll their own.
Which some people did. Some users followed. Some distributions picked up speed due to what they did.
With Microsoft your only choice is to bitch. You can not take the windows 7 source and stay on that path and update as you will.
Windows 8 haters had the right of it. (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, when one has to Google on another computer for instructions on how to bring up the damn (well hidden) address bar in the browser, you know your "intuitive" design is bad, bad, bad. Luckily I already knew about the (equally well hidden) active corners of the screen to bring up the Start screen, Desktop and Charm bar,so I did manage to get around, sort of. Trying to find some essential system settings proved impossible until I ended up installing StartIsBack, which gives me the start menu and old desktop upon boot; after that I could access the old style control panel. Windows 8 is just fine and dandy... Now that I have it working just like Windows 7. Honestly, the Metro interface is not that bad on a mobile device with a touch screen, but it has no place on a desktop PC.
Sure, all new UIs will require some learning. But never, not since Windows 3.11, have I had such a hostile experience from a new OS.
Re:Windows 8 haters had the right of it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Windows 8 haters had the right of it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, when one has to Google on another computer for instructions on how to bring up the damn (well hidden) address bar in the browser, you know your "intuitive" design is bad, bad, bad. Luckily I already knew about the (equally well hidden) active corners of the screen to bring up the Start screen, Desktop and Charm bar,so I did manage to get around, sort of..
/rant
What the hell is it with Microsoft's obsession with hiding stuff? Every damn release of a new Windows I have to un-hide more and more things that I want to see, such as file extensions, full file paths, and all directories.
I know! Let's just hide everything!! That would be SO much simpler to use...
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Seriously, I am curious to learn which areas you found to be an improvement over previous versions of Windows on desktop machines. I for one never had to Google around for instructions on performing basic tasks after upgrading to a new OS. I didn't have to when I tried a few of the more modern Linux distro
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"User-hostile" is a term commonly used to describe a featureset of the UI that acts against the user in manipulating the UI.
Re:Windows 8 haters had the right of it. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's sesame street UI.
Here, compare:
sesamestreet.org's muppets page [sesamestreet.org]
And
The UI formerly known as Metro [in.com]
Personally, I prefer my UI to treat me like my age is greater than a single digit. Simplicity can be a good thing, in moderation. This is not in moderation, was forced, unwanted, and hurtful to their brand and reputation.
Sesamestreet UI is a nonstarter on a desktop.
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Actually, I found the win95 (actually NT4) UI to be very useful, and empowering.
I did dislike the trend away from high information density and no-nonsense design that came with subsequent iterations, but this was mostly just cosmetic, and thus, while an irritation, not a game breaker.
When you go 180 degrees from your business tagline, "where do you want to go today?", and instead assert forcefully that "You will go HERE today", ignoring all protests and requests to let them off the buss, then there is a maj
"Learning curve" is missing the point. (Score:5, Insightful)
This just further demonstrates that Microsoft doesn't get it. They seem to think that it's because it's all "different" and there is a "learning curve" which is why people don't like it.
The real reasons:
1) Metro apps default to one app on the screen, and break any sophisticated workflow which requires multiple widows. This is removed functionality, not just an interface change.
2) The UI requires more wrist movement or "gorilla arms", which forces people to do more physical work which adds up for things like muscle strain.
3) They try to force the same interface on two different kinds of setups - small touchscreen tablets/hybrids, and desktop setups with potentially multiple large monitors. There is no way to have a nice uniform interface for both kinds of setups.
There are certainly many more, but those are the worse that I can think of. It's not about learning a different interface - it's that there are genuine drawbacks and genuine functionality removed that needs to be given back.
Licenses sold... (Score:5, Insightful)
100 million Windows 8 licenses sold.
I just bought a notebook for my mother's birthday.
Since she is used to Ubuntu on the desktop computer, is was the natural OS of choice.
Windows 8 never saw the light of the day... yet since it came preloaded, it still counts as a sale for Microsoft.
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Contact the manufacturer, demand a refund for the system.
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Ok, so let's see, that's 99,999,999 licenses then...
You could add up all the Ubuntu-wielding moms in the world, along with all the Ubuntu-wielding offspring, and it won't move that needle in the slightest.
I use Mac, Ubuntu, and ChromeOS, so no love for Microsoft here, but this belief that somehow Linux marks any kind of threat to MS on the desktop or laptop is silly. Most of the world runs Windows on those machines, and always will.
The thing that will shift that is not your mom, or even your mom times 1 mil
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Do tell:
How did you enter the BIOS on boot? Laptops that come with Windows 8 are configured for Fast Boot and will ignore any key presses and boot directly into the installed OS - Windows 8 - which will stonewall you until you accept their EULA.
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You can enter BIOS/UEFI even with a fast boot, no? I can do it on my desktop for sure, why not on a laptop?
bios entry by F2 at boot works on most machines (Score:3)
Lies and statistics (Score:5, Informative)
They may have sold 100M licenses to manufacturers, but adoption is still under 4%: http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0 [netmarketshare.com]
Re:Lies and statistics (Score:4, Interesting)
Nearly 4% in 6 months isn't bad especially when you consider the lower demand for PCs in general. Also, some portion of the XP and 7 users will never upgrade so the potential growth for a new OS is even lower. It's already the fourth most popular OS.
100 million licenses sold, but to whom? (Score:5, Insightful)
At least now will have an excuse (Score:2)
100 million Windows 8 licenses sold?!?! (Score:2)
Start8 (Score:3)
Re: Start8 (Score:3)
Inertia (Score:5, Insightful)
But and this is a big but. Things like LibreOffice can suit many user's needs and if I were a student doing term papers I would use a combination of google drive and google docs. Docs so my stuff is everywhere and can't be lost and Drive so that if I loose connectivity I have it on my machine. This might seem like a small market but the students of today are the consumers of tomorrow.
Lastly many home consumers are skipping the whole home desktop/laptop all together. A larger screened phone is generally all they need for most of their needs. This also goes for corporate types. The average higher level manager / road warrior is fine with a tablet / BB combo or some other mobile technology.
Soon the only people really needing a Windows machine (as opposed to some agnostic OS that primarily serves up a browser) will be specialty users such as accountants. Many other power users will be fine with either a Mac or Linux.
Which then leads to the whole server market. Linux is pretty dominating. My personal experience is that the MS shops out there are hard core MS evangelists who don't mind buying and managing huge piles of licenses which is getting even harder with many larger companies going with internal cloud systems that can spool up 20/200/2000 new machines on a whim.
I don't think that Windows 8 is the problem. I don't think it is the Metro interface beyond the fact that some MBAs at MS probably had these great spreadsheets showing huge desktop app sales. MS is declining for many other reasons. Preinstalled Bloatware would be a big one. But the key question is why I should not be using Linux, Android, MacOS, QNX? What is it that MS offers me to come back? For some reason it just doesn't appeal to me to pay an extra $100 when I buy a $500 device just so that I can run Windows. I don't see why I would want to run servers that could get me sued if I don't manage the licensing. I can see why people might stay through inertia but that isn't a very good business model in the long term.
Disappointed (Score:5, Funny)
Man, I am disappointed. I sure hope Microsoft, in their mad rush to undo the damage they perceive, doesn't ruin the touch experience on the touch screen computers out there already.
"Creativity" (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article:"There’s a level of risk and creativity going on that would never have happened two years ago.”
Creativity is not forcing people to use an iPad interface on their desktops, a better word would be idiocy. Idiocy, as in forcing system admins to use an iPad interface on Windows Server 2012. Idiocy, as in having two taskbars, one on the bottom, and one auto-hiding on the right side.
Don't count on it until they actually do it (Score:3)
These kinds of articles are supposed to make us feel better about Microsoft? I'd suggest not celebrating until they have actually DONE something. Lets see if they actually improve anything - there is a good chance they will make things even worse!
This isn't the first time they have screwed over their customers, and the sure as hell isn't the last.
Remember when Apple fucked up Maps in iOS6? (Score:2)
Couple of points... (Score:5, Informative)
1. As much as they need to re-think the whole Metro implementation for users without touchscreen hardware, from what I've read they are *NOT* bringing back the old desktop Start Menu, they are simply putting an icon in the familiar place to get to Metro. Metro is still the place where you will launch programs/apps from... and I will continue to bypass it altogether with Classic Shell on my desktop PC. I don't need a complete context change just to open a command prompt, control panel or start programs. Perhaps surprising to MS, I prefer to do my computing at a desk with a 24" non-touchscreen monitor, and I will not be replacing it anytime soon just so that I can bend forward and reach across the keyboard to smudge a hidden menu with my index finger.
2. As we all know, the 100 million licenses sold BS is just that. MS is conflating OEM licenses shipped with actual users actively purchasing and/or using Windows 8 software. They can pull this off because Windows is the de facto shipping OS on virtually all PC hardware. It is obviously to their advantage to maintain this sleight of hand, so don't expect them to get honest any time soon.
Re: (Score:3)
Indeed. The proper question is how many Windows 8 units have actually sold, versus units still sitting in warehouses or on store shelves.
That 100 million Windows 8 numbers are misleading (Score:4, Interesting)
Bring back Aero to replace flatland look (Score:4, Insightful)
Translation from marketingese (Score:3)
"We fucked up."
Now, give us the option to *completely* remove any interjections from Metro (start screen, WinKey+tab, charms, network selection, search, probably a number of other elements I've forgotten), ie.: real-actual-computer-to-get-shit-done mode. Also get rid of that horrible, difficult-to-read low contrast color scheme and bring back the only good thing Vista brought us: Aero Glass.
Do these things and we might forgive you. Otherwise, fuck this shit, I'm going to Debian.
what? (Score:5, Interesting)
100 million sold? Or 100 million packaged with laptops, PCs and tablets forced down the throats of unwitting users that definitely would rather have had windows 7 had they any clue?
The most hilarious part of this whole debacle on Microsofts part is that we recently decided to upgrade from WinXP to Win7 finally... and as part of that a few people said "hey, why don't we just go for Win8 while we're at it?" so they put together some focus groups of generally non-tech savvy employees to see how long it would take them to get a grasp on how to do their jobs using the new OS. One of the security guys in charge of the project is a big apple fan and argued we needed a control... and wanted to use OSX... management thought it wasn't such a bad idea, but of course, we're NOT switching to Apple any time soon so instead they used Redhat. Win7 was easiest for them to pick up of course... but Redhat beat Win8 by a country mile. There were many in test that never got Win8 to work for their jobs. I wasn't privy to all of the hurdles they found and what-not. But it's pretty staggering to think MS screwed up their UI so much that a bunch of our least talented salesmen were more capable of using Linux that it.
Windows 8 (Score:3, Informative)
When I first turned on my new PC loaded with Windows 8, I was flabergasted by the Metro screen. I did not know what the hell to do, but after painstaking searches on Google I was able to cobble together a desktop system that meets my needs. Now I never even see the Metro screen except by accident.
All I can say is that this is the worst customer service fiasco by a major corporation in history, and is even more ridiculous since they planned and conspired to strong-arm their customers into some glitzy crap mode of computing which does not fit with efficient productivity work. As an example of the loonyness expressed by the creators, on the Power button 'Hibernate' is not one of the default choices. You have to dig into the system to find it. What a load of holy bullshit!
When are they going to realize it's not the UI? (Score:5, Interesting)
Metro Metro Metro! That's what the media is focusing on, but it's not the real reason Windows 8 failed.
W-8 failed because Microsoft thought they'd be able to screw their developers the way that Apple's been screwing iOS developers since day one. Going full walled-garden for the Metro UI while at the same time effectively forcing developers to abandon Silverlight and Flash due to concerns about long-term viability meant there really was no compelling reason for a developer to bother with Windows 8. My company, a manufacturer of population-based analytical software that runs on a massively-parallel database, basically abandoned Windows as a development platform. In the middle of a product cycle.
Those MSDN/Visual Studio/Team Foundation/etc. licenses will never happen. Now, at great expense and risk, we've decided to go down the HTML5+Javascript path for the front end. It sucks. It sucks so badly that there's not a person in the shop who doesn't want to abandon the project altogether. But at least it will be portable if it ever gets built. It'll take two years longer than it would have if Microsoft hadn't screwed us over, but that's the price of doing business I guess. (The JBOSS backend is painful too, but not to the degree that an HTML5/Javascript front-end is.)
Yet, all that could have been avoided if Microsoft hadn't hit the Greed button and tried to force the Metro UI down its developers' throats. We have no confidence in Microsoft EVER being a viable development platform again. Not when key components could be pulled out from under us just because they want to impose a UI tax.
And I know I'm not alone. I've heard the same story, read the same story, watched the same story unfold all over the internet.
Microsoft used to field the best damn development and application platform in the industry, hands down. It still does, actually. But unfortunately, I can't risk using it. And because of that fact, there's very little chance that I'll ever bother considering it in future efforts.
And THAT's why Windows 8 failed and any attempt to revive it will fail as well.
Windows 8 is OK (Score:3)
Windows 8 is OK. What I find problematic about it is that the traditional desktop and Metro seem to clash with one another even though you can use them both simultaneously. On the outside you want to pick which environment you want to spend the most time in; if you want to stay in Metro, then use only Metro apps, but if you want to live in the Desktop, then you find yourself avoiding any Metro apps. It's just too hard to mix the two together.
Assuming, however, that you just want to use the Desktop all the time, Windows 8 is not that big of a deal. It boils down to the fact that they took away the start menu, and that apparently drives people nuts. Personally, I don't even like the start menu. The programs you use all the time end up being pinned to the task bar, and for the occasional other program, you just hit the Windows key and type in its name. It's really not hard, but people just don't figure this out. My uncle got a new Windows 8 laptop last week, and right when he got it I told him three or four times to use the Windows key and type in order to search for the program he wanted, and he *still* would just open the start screen with the mouse and then open "All Programs" and sit there reading all the entries in order to find the program he was looking for. A few days later he said, "You know, I realized I can just hit the Windows key to switch between the Desktop and the start screen."
I would consider Windows 8 to be an upgrade from 7, but people struggle with the interface changes. Windows 7 has a more "pure" UI experience, and it's what people expect.
Re:Anonymous Coward rethinks Frosty Piss (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft is misspelling things again.
It's spelled "Windows Blue", but pronounced "Windows Blew".
Re:Anonymous Coward rethinks Frosty Piss (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Anonymous Coward rethinks Frosty Piss (Score:5, Funny)
Jeremiah Cornelius posited:
Microsoft is misspelling things again.
It's spelled "Windows Blue", but pronounced "Windows Blew".
No, no, no.
There's nothing past tense about it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not One? (Score:5, Funny)
Windows 8: We Blue it...
Re:Not One? (Score:5, Funny)
It will boot up into the Blue screen of death?
Re:Not One? (Score:5, Funny)
Saves time that way.
Re: (Score:2)
People don't buy Windows; they buy computers.
Or they don't buy computers, if the computer comes with Windows 8 . . . which is what the PC manufacturers have been complaining about.
Or they buy tablets.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Or they don't buy computers, if the computer comes with Windows 8 . . . which is what the PC manufacturers have been complaining about.
Or they buy tablets.
On that "hairyfeet" had an interesting theory (in another thread) that is worth repeating:
Microsoft is rich enough to survive another Vista or two, but many PC manufacturers are not. If Microsoft does nothing to make them happy again, they may get desperate and push Linux in earnest.
So there is some risk for Microsoft of losing dominance in their main market if they overdo it with pushing the UI formerly called Metro ;-)
Re:100 million Windows 8 licenses sold (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
More competition from the Linux world, along with the influx of users demanding polish, would be a wonderful thing.
And lets be clear, Linux / its ecosystem need a good deal of work.
Re:100 million Windows 8 licenses sold (Score:5, Insightful)
The 100 million number is very misleading. They sold licenses to OEM's. Also, the Windows computers I've bought since Windows 8 came out have had a license for Windows 8 (along with an install disc) but have come with Windows 7 pre-installed.
Re: (Score:3)
We also don't know how many licenses Microsoft needs to break even for its Windows division. I'd suspect the vast majority of these are cheap OEM licenses, not corporate sales, as businesses are steering clear of Win8, so we're probably talking a couple dozen dollars of revenue per sale on average.
I'd be interested to know how much a couple billion dollars is compared to the Win8-related expenses Microsoft has had in pre-launch and continuing development, marketing, and support of the OS.
Re: (Score:3)
Also the way MS volume and to a lesser extent OEM licensing generally works is that you buy the latest version and then use downgrade rights to get the version you really want. So sales of win8 licenses don't mean people are actually using them to run win8.
If a company has an old machine which is currently licensed for XP or Vista and wants to put win7 on it than afaict they will need to buy a win8 license for it. (one win8 license sold)
If a company buys a new machine from a vendor that doeesn't offer that
Re: (Score:3)
Also, the 100 million sold are actually force-bundled with new computers. Wonder how many uninstalled it and got Linux on there or bought Win7 with/after it?
Re: (Score:2)
the 100 million figure also probably includes a pile of volume licenses.. but those seats mostly remain on XP or 7.
Re: (Score:2)
Pareos are one-size, too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Old coke didn't come back. They created a third product called "Coke Classic" that was not in any way the same thing as "old coke," since Coke Classic is sweetened with High-Fructose Corn Syrup, whereas "old code" was sweetened with natural cane sugar.
Re: (Score:3)
Old coke didn't come back. They created a third product called "Coke Classic" that was not in any way the same thing as "old coke," since Coke Classic is sweetened with High-Fructose Corn Syrup, whereas "old code" was sweetened with natural cane sugar.
Bullshit [snopes.com].
Start8 (Score:3)
This start menu blends well with Windows 8's theme, replicates all Windows 7 start menu features, and has options to boot to desktop and disable hot corners. Only caveat is that it does cost $5, but is probably the best polished Windows 8 start menu out there.