BART Strike Provides Stark Contrast To Tech's Non-Union World 467
dcblogs writes "The strike by San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) workers this week is a clear and naked display of union power, something that's probably completely alien to tech professionals. Tech workers aren't organized in any significant way except through professional associations. They don't strike. But the tech industry is highly organized, and getting more so. Industry lobbying spending has been steadily rising, reaching $135 million last year, almost as much as the oil and gas industry. But in just one day of striking, BART workers have cost the local economy about $73 million in lost productivity due to delays in traffic and commuting. Software developers aren't likely to unionize. As with a lot of professionals, they view themselves as people with special skills, capable of individually bargaining for themselves, and believe they have enough power in the industry to get what they want, said Victor Devinatz, a professor of management and quantitative methods at Illinois State University College of Business. For unions to get off the ground with software workers, Devinatz said, 'They have to believe that collective action would be possible vehicle to get the kinds of things that they want and that they deserve.'"
Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
Unions seem to be blamed for everything wrong in the world of work on Slashdot but, even though I'm not a member because there isn't one at my company, I really appreciate the rights they have got for workers over the decades.
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I'm not a member because I'm a developer and employers practically will suck my dick to work for them. There should almost be a union to protect companies that are hiring tech workers.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. The amount of anti-union disinformation being spread here (I live in the East Bay) is insane. Blaming the unions while ignoring the boot of the upper class on your throat isn't going to help anything, folks.
The thing is it's _so_ easy. There are countless examples of unions making the world a better place, and plenty of examples of union corruption making the world a worse place, so it's easy to back up any argument you care to make.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
Sort of, but ultimately overall you have to look at the big picture. Compare what things were like before and after unions and what things were like now as opposed to when unions were at their peak in the 60s and 70s.
You can always find individual anecdotes and examples, but the questions should be whether we're better off with or without unions and why is that the case.
I don't buy this argument (Score:3)
This argument is nonsense. It is like saying "Coal power made the world a better place, compare what things were like in 1860 to today", and using that to advocate ramping up coal production. It's a nonsense argument.
Whatever benefit something had IN THE PAST does not have bearing on TODAY. What is the benefit a union provides society TODAY. Rights of the worker are now codified in legislation; we're not returning to sweatshops. Meanwhile unions are silent on most of the most pressing social issues in socie
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yup. The amount of anti-union disinformation being spread here (I live in the East Bay) is insane. Blaming the unions while ignoring the boot of the upper class on your throat isn't going to help anything, folks.
Actually, it's going to help the upper class.
(I.e., the people who least need it.)
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:4, Insightful)
ignoring the boot of the upper class on your throat
Please, PLEASE do unionize. Once that happens, I can be done once and for all with the Slashbot complaints that IT workers need to unionize... once the first downsizing comes and they realize that they're getting laid off because part of being in a union means that whoever has been there the longest will keep their jobs, regardless of whether they are any good at their jobs or not.
Unions are for people in professions in which any worker cannot be differentiated from the next based on skill, so they have no individual bargaining power and need to band together. Then they reward seniority and loyalty to the union, since skill or job performance is unimportant. If you think you work in an industry where employees have differentiated skills and have some leverage to bargain with employers, you do NOT want a union.
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You have the corporation with thousands of times your financial resources over a barrel and can dictate terms to them!
Good to hear you know all about what my job and industry are, but... yes, your sarcasm aside, I do work in a technology industry field where talent is differentiated. I don't have my employer over a barrel, and the company will survive just fine without me. But I have promotions and bonuses to show for my performance, and I would prefer not to trade that in for making the same wage (minus union dues) as everyone else in my group, regardless of performance. I know it's crazy and radical, but I actually *like
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Good to hear you know all about what my job and industry are, but... yes, your sarcasm aside, I do work in a technology industry field where talent is differentiated. I don't have my employer over a barrel, and the company will survive just fine without me. But I have promotions and bonuses to show for my performance, and I would prefer not to trade that in for making the same wage (minus union dues) as everyone else in my group, regardless of performance. I know it's crazy and radical, but I actually *like* being paid based on my performance, and I believe that I can go work somewhere else if my company doesn't want to pay men what I'm worth. Yes, I know, crazy and fascist and so forth.
You have clearly never worked in a unionised company if that's what you think it means. That's a crazy amount of misinformed.
I work in IT, and I work in a company that is quite heavily unionised (far more so that the average for our industry). We still have bonuses, performance ratings, performance-related pay rises, promotions, and all that other stuff. But IN ADDITION to that we have decent minimum pay and conditions for the people at the bottom of the pile, excellent working conditions, sensible work pat
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Informative)
Well, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the entire point of the anti-union narrative we see non-stop. It's what progressives mean when they say 'a race to the bottom'....
Pay close attention to your views on workers rights and what a reasonable quality of life should be. Then ask yourself who's really shaping them and why...
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Interesting)
Unions seem to be blamed for everything wrong in the world of work on Slashdot but, even though I'm not a member because there isn't one at my company, I really appreciate the rights they have got for workers over the decades.
I appreciate the rights they earned for workers myself, but I'm not in an union because unlike the rail workers of the 19th century, a software developer's job is pretty damn nice. If your job earns you enough money that you can support your family and put a little bit away for retirement, you can individually negotiate for more, but figuratively putting a gun to your employers' head by saying, "either pay me what I think I deserve or not only will I stop working, but every one of your other employees will as well" is unethical.
I think unions do have a place in our modern society today, but not in professional circles. They should be reserved for professions where you have no bargaining position. If you have to take a job that doesn't pay enough for you to live on, but the employer is taking advantage of the fact you have to eat in order to cause you to accept his offer, you may need to strengthen your position with group bargaining. If you earn $50k a year, then either accept that this is what you're worth, negotiate for a raise, or find another job. You're not at a disadvantage at the bargaining table if you don't have to wonder how you're going to pay for your next meal.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
The grad student union at my university is responsible for me having health insurance. That was a while back, but not in the grand scheme of things. (I've actually never been able to find a date, but I get the sense it was a couple of decades ago.)
That's not a minor benefit even remotely.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Funny)
I've actually never been able to find a date, [...]
What is this, slashdot punbaiting?
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Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, yes and no. It's not like the various people who pay tuition would find it dropping by the same amount if health insurance were suspended.
The fundamental theory of unions is that the price paid for an item is a function of both supply and demand. When demand is high, the seller can charge a price higher than the cost. The question then becomes, who receives the profits?
That's not a simple question to answer, as there are a lot of inputs, but in the case of low- to moderate-skill workers, the answer is generally that the employer gets 100% of the profits. The workers are easily replaced by ones who will demand less. (In the limit case, MUCH less, and the workers are reduced to subsistence wages.) A union is a way for the workers to demand a share of the profits, by agreeing among each other not to work for the lowest offered wage.
In those circumstances, the increased wages aren't coming out of the pockets of the customers. They're coming out of the pockets of the employers. That's the point.
There are even more complex economics going on with grad students, whose "job" is being subsidized by a variety of sources, for work that is well removed from market forces. Student tuitions have been going up faster than inflation, and the grad students are competing for that extra money with a variety of campus functions (everything from fat football coach paychecks to new buildings). A grad student union is really more a representation than a true union, but it serves one of the same functions: to represent the group in the negotiation for how much they will receive of the difference between costs and monies received.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember about 15-20 years ago grad students and adjuncts were complaining that they weren't getting health insurance from their universities.
The universities had a good bargaining position, the individual grad students had a bad bargaining position, and the students couldn't get health insurance.
When the grad students organized a union, and organized together, they had a better bargaining position, and they were able to force the universities to give them health insurance.
That sounds to me like the union being responsible for the grad students having health insurance.
The student tuition dollar goes to pay for a lot of things. When the grad students have a union, more of that student tuition dollar goes to the grad students, including for health insurance.
Re: Cue anti-union rage (Score:4, Insightful)
No, smartass, how about the 40-hour work week? Holiday pay? Vacations? Overtime pay? Unemployment insurance? Compensation for injuries sustained while on the job? And all of the other benefits that we have that we take for granted that exist because working people organized into unions, fought for those rights, were beaten, murdered, threatened and coerced, and still managed to pry those rights from the cancerous, blood-soaked claw of the wealthy and privileged.
Corruption can exist in _any_ organized group of human beings. With unions, at least their is some semblance of democracy. You vote for leadership, you vote on bargaining, you vote on dues. A union is democracy in the workplace.
The American dream is dead, long live the European dream.
Re: Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Interesting)
All that is true. Put it together and unions have one fundamental benefit: You have a much better negotiating position when you negotiate with your boss together as a union than you do when you negotiate with your boss as an individual.
That should be obvious to anyone who understands economics, or even mathematics. If you go to the hospital as an individual with a sprained ankle, they'll charge you $2,000. If you go as a member of an insurance plan, they'll charge you $500. That's because the insurance company has a stronger negotiating position than you do as an individual. It seems that union wages are about $10 an hour more for the same job as non-union wages.
TALKING UNION
If you want higher wages, let me tell you what to do;
You got to talk to the workers in the shop with you;
You got to build you a union, got to make it strong,
But if you all stick together, now, ‘twont he long.
You'll get shorter hours,
Better working conditions.
Vacations with pay,
Take your kids to the seashore.
It ain’t quite this simple, so I better explain
Just why you got to ride on the union train;
‘Cause if you wait for the boss to raise your pay,
We’ll all be waiting till Judgment Day;
We’ll all he buried - gone to Heaven -
Saint Peter’ll be the straw boss then.
Now, you know you’re underpaid, hut the boss says you ain’t;
He speeds up the work till you’re ‘bout to faint,
You may he down and out, but you ain’t beaten,
Pass out a leaflet and call a meetin’
Talk it over - speak your mind -
Decide to do something about it.
‘Course, the boss may persuade some poor damn fool
To go to your meeting and act like a stool;
But you can always tell a stool, though - that’s a fact;
He’s got a yellow streak running down his back;
He doesn’t have to stool - he'll always make a good living
On what he takes out of blind men’s cups.
You got a union now; you’re sitting pretty;
Put some of the boys on the steering committee.
The boss won’t listen when one man squawks.
But he’s got to listen when the union talks.
He better -
He’ll be mighty lonely one of these days.
Suppose they’re working you so hard it’s just outrageous,
They’re paying you all starvation wages;
You go to the boss, and the boss would yell,
"Before I'd raise your pay I’d see you all in Hell."
Well, he’s puffing a big see-gar and feeling mighty slick,
He thinks he’s got your union licked.
He looks out the window, and what does he see
But a thousand pickets, and they all agree
He’s a bastard - unfair - slave driver -
Bet he beats his own wife.
Now, boy, you’ve come to the hardest time;
The boss will try to bust your picket line.
He’ll call out the police, the National Guard;
They’ll tell you it’s a crime to have a union card.
They’ll raid your meeting, hit you on the head.
Call every one of you a goddamn Red -
Unpatriotic - Moscow agents -
Bomb throwers, even the kids.
But out in Detroit here’s what they found,
And out in Frisco here’s what they found,
And out in Pittsburgh here’s what they found,
And down in Bethlehem here’s what they found,
That if you don’t let Red-baiting break you up,
If you don’t let stool pigeons break you up,
If you don’t let vigilantes break you up,
And if you don’t let race hatred break you up -
You’ll win. What I mean,
Take it easy - but take it!
Words by Millard Lampell, Lee Hays and Pete Seeger (1941)
Re: Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Informative)
Just ask all those union workers in Germany how it's worked out for them.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/ [forbes.com]
Frederick E. Allen
12/21/2011 @ 5:42PM |60,178 views
How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice as Much
In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 per hour. Yet Germany’s big three car companies—BMW, Daimler (Mercedes-Benz), and Volkswagen—are very profitable.
How can that be? The question is explored in a new article from Remapping Debate, a public policy e-journal. Its author, Kevin C. Brown, writes that “the salient difference is that, in Germany, the automakers operate within an environment that precludes a race to the bottom; in the U.S., they operate within an environment that encourages such a race.”
There are “two overlapping sets of institutions” in Germany that guarantee high wages and good working conditions for autoworkers. The first is IG Metall, the country’s equivalent of the United Automobile Workers. Virtually all Germany’s car workers are members, and though they have the right to strike, they “hardly use it, because there is an elaborate system of conflict resolution that regularly is used to come to some sort of compromise that is acceptable to all parties,” according to Horst Mund, an IG Metall executive. The second institution is the German constitution, which allows for “works councils” in every factory, where management and employees work together on matters like shop floor conditions and work life. Mund says this guarantees cooperation, “where you don’t always wear your management pin or your union pin.”
Mund points out that this goes against all mainstream wisdom of the neo-liberals. We have strong unions, we have strong social security systems, we have high wages. So, if I believed what the neo-liberals are arguing, we would have to be bankrupt, but apparently this is not the case. Despite high wages . . . despite our possibility to influence companies, the economy is working well in Germany.
At Volkswagen’s Chattanooga plant, the nonunionized new employees get $14.50 an hour, which rises to $19.50 after three years.
http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/tale-two-systems [remappingdebate.org] ... the UAW has made significant concessions on wages, especially through the creation of a permanent “Tier 2” level for all new employees. Whereas incumbent “Tier 1” workers earn about $28 an hour, all new UAW hires at the GM, Ford, and Chrysler earn around $15 per hour.
A tale of two systems
By Kevin C. Brown
Remapping Debate
Dec. 21, 2011
American autoworkers are constantly told that high-wage work is an unsustainable relic in the face of a hyper-competitive, globalized marketplace. Apostles of neo-liberal economic theory — both in the public and private sectors — have stressed the message that worker adaptation is necessary to survive....
But the case of German automakers — BMW, Daimler, and Volkswagen — tells a different story. Each company produces vehicles not only in Germany, but also in “transplant” factories in the U.S. The former are characterized by high wages and high union membership; the U.S. plants pay lower wages and are located in so-called “right-to-work” (anti-union) states.
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You can have highly-paid workers, highly-paid managers, profitable stockholders, and still compete in the market. That's what automation and industrial engineering does.
Indeed, labor is only 10% of the car's cost, so you can pay workers well without a dramatic effect on prices. In fact, many business owners believe that their better-paid employees do a better job. The well-paid German union workers, for example, don't get into jurisdictional disputes the way American unions do. A German worker doesn't have
Re: Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
My boss will get a smaller slice of the pie.
Thus giving him less money to reinvest in his business, so the non-union shop next door grows, and eventually out-competes your company and you lose your job. Or your boss replaces you with a machine that wouldn't be cost effective if you had a more reasonable wage.
If you artificially push your wages above a fair market value, don't be surprised if the market finds a solution that doesn't involve you being employed.
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Unless you've seen the financial statements, and you know how to understand the financial statements, you don't know whether there is enough money to take.
I've known businessmen who told the banks that they were doing great when they applied for a loan, and then told their union that they were practically going out of business when they negotiated salaries. As it turned out, they were doing well.
Obviously some businesses in America are profitable. (Or do you believe that there are none and American capitali
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Do you believe that there is such a thing as negotiating skill?
Two business owners hire a printer for the same job. One business owner pays $20,000, the other business owner pays $15,000 because he's a better negotiator.
Two people apply for the same job. One person gets $50,000 a year, the other person gets $70,000 because he's a better negotiator.
Competition is one factor, but it's not the only factor.
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A job is a property right. If I'm living in a free market, I can contract to work for an employer under any terms I want.
One of the terms I want is an employment contract (i.e. a union contract) that gives me a long-term right to a job.
Those are the terms that the most profitable American corporations (like IBM, Kodak) gave their workers during the most economically productive period of American history,
Those are the terms that some of the world's most profitable companies in the world (German, Scandinavian
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Yeah, like your right to pay for hookers and blow for mobsters and politicians, and your right to have one more massive blood-sucking operation slicing a chunk off your paycheck?
Give me a break.
-jcr
Yeah, all that should be reserved for the CEO class.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:4, Insightful)
So, any ideas other than do nothing? While do nothing is easy and doesn't suffer a lot of corruption, it doesn't have nearly as many accomplishments (such as workplace safety, 8 hour days and 40 hour weeks, etc) to it's name.
Wanna learn a bit about unions? Go lurk on message boards for people in various union jobs. You might learn something. For example, I have seen that more linemen die in non-union jobs than in union jobs because in non-union places they'll send under-qualified people up the pole where the distribution voltage is.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
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I guess you could consider rules that protect lives as mediocre. Seriously man, other than cheaper labor what is that you really want?
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing that does annoy the crap out of me is when union "rules" prevent you from even perform your *own* simple tasks, requiring a union employee to do it/be present.
For example, several times I have helped set up demos at CES booths/suites, and literally wasn't even allowed to move around furniture, unpack certain objects from boxes, or run/plug in certain kinds of cables without union workers. Sometimes we had to just sit there for an hour waiting for someone to show up to perform a 30 second task. That sort of practice not "protecting" the union employees from "management" hiring cut-rate non-union labor, it's extorting $100/hr for pointless tasks that they had no business being involved with in the first place.
THIS sort of thing is why there has been such a backlash against unions - just like government agencies these days, they DO still perform valuable services, but the bureaucracy, politics, incompetence, and waste are giving them a really bad name. It used to be about COMPROMISE, but seems to be increasingly about ENTITLEMENT...
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What I know personally is that unions enshrine mediocrity. I would personally have been hired for specific jobs that were filled by lame union workers if they could have fired them.
Maybe you're not really as good as you think you are.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, me too. My question is, what have they done for us lately? Answer, fuck-all. Let's see them, for example, push to increase the minimum wage, so that people can even afford their union goods and services. What, they don't want to do that, because they don't have to worry about the minimum wage?
Actually, unions have been among the strongest advocates of raising the minimum wage. Here [aflcio.org], for example, is the AFL-CIO's position on this subject.
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Issuing a position paper? Wow, I am overwhelmed by the strength of their support. Guess what? Those workers won't ever be in the street protesting the minimum wage in any significant numbers. They'll be working their union jobs, at substantially above minimum wage.
Re:Cue anti-union rage (Score:5, Insightful)
You denied that unions favored increasing the minimum wage. I pointed out that you were wrong. Incidentally, a quick Google search shows 2,140 documents containing the phrase "minimum wage" on aflcio.org – that hardly speaks to an issue of peripheral concern.
Unions take public positions in favor of a higher minimum wage, and support elected officials who want to increase it. What else, exactly, do you propose they should be doing?
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It isn't button pushing that comes at a premium price, its knowing what to do when pushing the button doesn't bring the desired results that is costly.
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You do realize that unions are the main organizations lobbying for workers rights, don't you? Just because they're working on many different things and not out in force every single weekend picketing something, does not mean that they aren't doing anything.
What's more, union workers don't necessarily make that much more than non-union workers. I remember making $3 over minimum wage at the last union job I worked which is still a sub-living wage for anybody that isn't single. And I don't think that people wh
Past their time (Score:2, Insightful)
Unions were good in the 1920s and 1930s. Now, they've priced the American worker out of the global labor market.
There's a reason that union membership is down to historic lows: all they do is take money out of workers' pockets to line the bosses' nests and send money to Democrat politicians.
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Re:Past their time (Score:5, Informative)
Not hard to find. For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported in 2012 that private sector union membership was down to 6.6%, and overall membership was 11.3%, compared to 20.1% as recently as 1983. The 6.6% was the lowest since 1932.
There are plenty of sources cited all over the net. A good place to start is this Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org].
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In general union membership rises when companies start rolling over workers. Which is what happened during the early 20th, things got progressively better. And we'll probably see an increase again in the next decade especially as companies push for "more work for less pay" that's becoming the norm. Unions themselves though especially public sector unions have a serious credibility gap though.
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Re:Past their time (Score:5, Insightful)
"Now, they've priced the American worker out of the global labor market."
The American worker isn't priced out of the market. For example, we export BMWs to mainland China. We don't need many meat puppets and nut turners to do that.
The American worker is less NECESSARY because efficient businesses need fewer workers. Workers are an expensive burden, which is why even Foxconn is turning to robotics.
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The X5 is exported from US to China, because BMW tend to set up production lines for most of its models in just one factory, they are also prohibitively expensive in China (cheapest model is US $95K) (baidu search here [baidu.com]). You will also notice the Axis powers tend to set up their factories in "right to work" states, so no unions to speak of.
Interestingly, I have been in a Chinese sensor factory and chatted with the managers about what make them different from the other supplier of that part, a company in Germ
Re:Past their time (Score:5, Interesting)
The American worker will always be 'priced out of the global labor market', unless you want to work for a dollar a day.
Luckily there are tools to correct for this, like tariffs. We just don't use them properly because business owns the govn't.
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The American worker will always be 'priced out of the global labor market', unless you want to work for a dollar a day.
Luckily there are tools to correct for this, like tariffs. We just don't use them properly because business owns the govn't.
Best Post.
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Now, they've priced the American worker out of the global labor market.
Don't be naive. Just about anything that can be feasibly offshored to low-cost jurisdictions already has been. Those jobs that are still in the U.S. are here for a reason, and marginal changes in the costs of labor won't affect that. And many jobs in modern America are service jobs, which can't be offshored. You can't have your plumbing fixed by a guy from India.
People like to blame the unions for the decline of the U.S. Big Three auto
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/ [forbes.com]
Frederick E. Allen
12/21/2011 @ 5:42PM |60,178 views
How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice as Much
In 2010, Germany produced more than 5.5 million automobiles; the U.S produced 2.7 million. At the same time, the average auto worker in Germany made $67.14 per hour in salary in benefits; the average one in the U.S. made $33.77 pe
Re:Past their time (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, they've priced the American worker out of the global labor market.
From what I read about Germany, I don't think unions are the problem.
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They have not priced Americans out of the global market. Much larger economic and political forces have done that. Unless, of course, you can explain how anyone in America could possibly afford to work for $5/day even if permitted to.
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It's not the unions, it's the free trade agreements and short sighted corporate greed that caused that. Unions are at lows in large part because of union busting that the GOP has engaged in over the last 30 years. Unions aren't perfect, but at least they represent labor, and they're by and large the only people that will do it. The Democrats regularly cave to the GOP over workers rights issues.
The union membership numbers are more reflective of the increased difficulty of organizing and the efforts by corpo
OMG, no please god no unions in Tech (Score:3, Insightful)
You want to destroy innovation in the tech sector? I guarantee you the fastest way to do that is unionize the tech field.
Not True (Score:5, Interesting)
The CEO of one of the smaller uk telcos was even an activist in his younger days and I know that a CTO of one of the global telecoms companys was a member of my branch
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You mean when BT was privatized? What are "M&P grades" for those of us not from the UK?
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http://www.yale.edu/hronline/careers/salary_mp.html
ie. like salaried and not hourly in the US -most IT in the US being salaried
-I'm just sayin'
Re:OMG, no please god no unions in Tech (Score:5, Interesting)
I dunno - unions can drive innovation. The primary reason AT&T funded the development of Unix was to break the hold the union had on applying firmware upgrades to telecom components. "Hey, all these boxes already connect to our network, maybe we could use that in some way". Ken claims Unix was "a weak pun on Multics", but it works just as well as Union-X, the union-busting OS.
Re:OMG, no please god no unions in Tech (Score:5, Interesting)
I dunno - unions can drive innovation. The primary reason AT&T funded the development of Unix was to break the hold the union had on applying firmware upgrades to telecom components. "Hey, all these boxes already connect to our network, maybe we could use that in some way". Ken claims Unix was "a weak pun on Multics", but it works just as well as Union-X, the union-busting OS.
So unions drive innovation by creating a situation where they are an obstacle that needs to be overcome? The sarcasm is strong with this one.
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Hey! Unions are what made the US education system so effective!
http://usc-mat.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/us-schools-vs-international3.jpg [amazonaws.com]
Re:OMG, no please god no unions in Tech (Score:5, Insightful)
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Like backward, poverty-stricken Germany, where employees who are laid off during downturns are sent to vocational schools to learn the latest technology.
they seem to be like runing the autopilot system (Score:2)
they seem to be like running the autopilot system in aircraft and they some needs to be there to cover stuff that the autopilot can't handle
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It may or may not be legal to run the trains without an operator on-board.
US vs World (Score:5, Informative)
You know that this is pretty much US only? In Germany where I worked all of the engineers were unionized.
Granted the unions seem to be quite a bit different. The UAW is quite a bit different than most of the German unions I worked with.
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Granted the unions seem to be quite a bit different.
This is usually the key point both sides need to understand when a European and American discuss unions. Otherwise it will just devolve into pointless arguing because neither side understands the other.
Individual, not collective (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, a young worker is unlikely to really need lots of health insurance when compared to an aging worker. Similarly an unmarried man most likely couldn't care less about maternity leave. But yet with collective bargaining, that young worker could get useless (for him) insurance in exchange for something that would be useful for him (vacation days, higher pay, etc.) and that unmarried man might get great maternity leave but at the expense of something that could be useful for him.
Instead, contracts should be dealt with at the individual level, allowing for the best for both the employer and the individual employee.
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Even better would be a contract that allowed each employee a certain amount of choice, rather like the menu in a Chinese restaurant: you can have maternity leave or extra vacation days, but not both and so on. Best of all would be if you were allowed, under certain circumstances, to change your selection, such as if/when you get married.
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Re:Individual, not collective (Score:4, Informative)
The problem with unions is they view a worker as a clone of every other worker.
Well, obviously no one told the Major League Baseball Player's Association, or the Screen Actor's Guild.
Unions do not necessarily mean strict seniority pay or rigid and inflexible job descriptions. Many workers in manufacturing industries choose to push for these kind of terms in their contracts, because productivity from worker to worker isn't that different, and because having someone do a task they're not familiar with in an industrial setting can be very dangerous. But this isn't how things work in MLB or Hollywood; they certainly don't pay baseball stars or actors on strict seniority, and they don't have to get into a fight every time they want to shift someone from shortstop to third base or whatever.
Remember, union leaders are elected by the workers, and are supposed to represent what the workers want. Since IT workers generally don't like rigid job descriptions or inflexible pay scales, IT unions would not advocate for such things. Instead, as in the MLBPA and SAG, they would probably focus on setting minimum standards, to prevent people with less individual negotiating leverage from being exploited.
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My boss gives me an offer of what he's willing to give me in exchange for work (pay, working environment, benefits, etc.) I can either accept that, reject that or give him a counteroffer which he is free to accept or reject.
We are both on equal ground. If I don't like what he offers, I'm perfectly free not to work. If he doesn't like what I am willing to work for (or the quality of my work
Re:Individual, not collective (Score:4, Insightful)
If you think you have the same bargaining power as an employer does -- particularly in a time of high unemployment -- you're delusional. You are not as special and irreplaceable as you probably think you are.
--Jeremy
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Its simple logic: why pay more for the same thing? Instead, you've got to be different. If you can't, well, you either need to adjust your level of living or find a field you're better at.
Outlaw Government Employee Unions (Score:5, Insightful)
The state of CA has a debt of what? $127,000,000,000 was the last I heard. Much of the tax base is leaving the state. Govt. employee unions are largely responsible for the utterly unsustainable financial situation of the U.S. state which has the most natural economic advantages.
BART workers don't work in sweat shops and never have. They are overpaid and underworked like most govt. workers. Govt. employee unions should be illegal since they screw the taxpayer, the people who actually pay the bills.
Re:Outlaw Government Employee Unions (Score:4, Insightful)
Govt. employee unions should be illegal since they screw the taxpayer, the people who actually pay the bills.
The worst of it is that when the screwing happens, those tax payers that get screwed werent even old enough to pay taxes (and many not even born yet.)
"Sure, we'll give you union guys a great pension 30 years from now when you retire -- no problem! hell, my constituents wont even feel it"
No Unions is why I have a Cali Tech Job (Score:5, Informative)
However, in California tech jobs are not regulated very well by the state. Since salaries are so high, most tech workers are exempt from overtime -- and companies like Google, Zynga, Netflix etc are well-known to demand long hours from their employees without paying overtime (albeit paying decent salaries instead). One of the main reasons California and Silicon Valley is appealing to them is this, and also, at-will employment. Meaning, if an employee doesn't work out, it is very easy to fire them and replace them with someone else.
The talent you have at a start-up is critical -- when your core team is ten people, having one or two free-riders or non-stellar characters in the mix can be a big drain on productivity. So, California makes it relatively easy for these companies to replace their staff, and both hire and fire new workers.
If this wasn't the case, very likely the startup I work for wouldn't exist here, and would be located somewhere else. Dealing with union workers is the last thing a busy CEO wants for his start-up, they're busy drumming up business, promoting the product, getting funding, etc etc. My company rarely fires anyone -- but the talent is very good and stays motivated with little management. But if we do hire someone who needs to be managed all day, we do want to get rid of them without having to go through a union and a few HR lawyers. Startups simply don't have the resources for that, nor to spend money on someone's salary who is not ideal.
In conclusion, there's a reason why things are the way they are.
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Note that "exempt" is often treated as a good thing by some workers because they think it means they're exempt from time card hassles. What it really means is that the company is exempt from following a lot of labor laws. It's a loss to the employee in a lot of ways.
For instance the lack of regulation about how many hours the exempt employee can be required to put in. The employers play around with this subtly. They don't come right out and say "you must work 60 hours", instead they say "we just expect
Bad P/R (Score:5, Informative)
Unions simply have a poor reputation and haven't worked very hard on improving it.
For one, they've failed the address the perception that unions protect lazy workers at the expense of the productive ones. They should actively encourage bonuses, for example, and allow some degree of "demerit" pay cuts. (They don't have to be biting cuts such that a worker has to suddenly sell their house, but allow small gradual demerits.)
Second, they've often negotiated contracts with local governments that end up appearing one-sided during downturns, making the unions look unwilling to scale back in hard times. The problem is that local governments often think short-term because of election cycles, and unions take advantage of this stance in negotiations. While not directly the union's "fault", it does damage their reputation. Unions should ensure they scale back a bit more during down-times to match everybody else's experience. Sharing the pain makes you more popular.
Third, they need to make their case in the media. Corporations trash unions left and right in the media, and unions have done a poor job of putting out their side of the story.
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For one, they've failed the address the perception that unions protect lazy workers at the expense of the productive ones.
I wonder how many of the people blaming all the country's problems on unions have ever been in one.
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That is not a perception but a fact. And at least in my old union they did it openly. I was employed at a public institution where part of the salary was fixed (based on seniority) and a minor part was individual. The individual part is however not negotiated between the employee and the employer but between a union representative and the employer (also for employees not in a union - e
Not organized ? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Unless you happen to work in one of the 95% of all jobs where the described situation ends up with the employee becoming unemployed.
Inefficiencies (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, the flip side is that the union can add inefficiencies to the business and prevent them from meeting changing market conditions. It becomes much harder (or nearly impossible) to remove underperforming employees, and leads to siloed skillsets "I can't change that lightbulb, you need an electrician for that job" or "I can't unload that truck, it's not in my job description, but once someone brings the box into the building, then they can't take it to the store room, I have to do that". And I imagine that developers would get like that too "Well, it would be trivial to take care of that with a bash script, it would take me 2 minutes to do it. But since I'm a classified as a J2EE developer, I would have to architect a 3 tier enterprise architecture to do it, the team and I could have it ready to go 6 weeks after the business analyst finishes the requirements analysis. Unless, of course, you want to post a job for a Bash developer (and leave it posted for internal-only applications for 16 weeks)" I'm only half way joking after some of the BS I've run into at union shops.
Which may be why my train can be 10 minutes late or even 10 minutes early yet BART still says "all trains are on time".
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Unions are about collective bargaining. There's nothing that forces the unions to bargain for rigid job descriptions or strict seniority pay. Since most IT workers don't want these things, why would they elect union leaders who favor them, or agree to a contract that included them?
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For each of those apparently inflexible and over the top union rules, there is a corresponding over the top and underhanded attempt by management to slip something past them, usually to under-cut them with non-union and often under-qualified people.
I'm curious... (Score:2)
What problems could unionization of the tech industry solve?
Step 1: Unionize! Workers unite!
Step 2: Elect union overlords.
Step 3: Pay dues.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Rejoice!
Do I need a union? (Score:3)
I work 40 hrs a week, get to work flex hours if I have to deviate from my regular schedule, work from home on Wednesdays, work in an air conditioned office kept between 74 and 76 degrees year-round, and the heaviest thing I've had to lift* in 5 years was a pot of coffee. My biggest occupational hazard is heart disease from lack of activity. I have enough business knowledge that it would take two years to train someone with a college degree for my job.
Contrast that with a dock worker or auto manufacturing job where OSHA compliance is something to worry about, on the job injuries, back and foot injuries, fire hazards etc etc. The most training many of these people get is how to drive a fork lift and can be replaced with a temp worker in a day or two. Unions do a great job of protecting mostly unskilled workers.
*not counting activities outside of work
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I work 40 hrs a week, get to work flex hours if I have to deviate from my regular schedule, work from home on Wednesdays, work in an air conditioned office kept between 74 and 76 degrees year-round, and the heaviest thing I've had to lift* in 5 years was a pot of coffee. My biggest occupational hazard is heart disease from lack of activity. I have enough business knowledge that it would take two years to train someone with a college degree for my job.
Wait till you get a manager that kills your flex time and working from home because they doesn't like it. Then starts demanding extra hours to be put in with no compensation (even if it goes against state law). Then he decides you can just not go on your planned and approved vacation at the last minute because of some fire he wants fixed. Then you get to take call a another week after getting off call because their pet employee has decided to take a surprise vacation. All this while not only micromanaging y
Unions aren't for everybody. (Score:2)
I don't see why software developers, generally, would want to unionize. On the other hand it seems like I hear a lot of horror stories from video game developers, which makes sense since it's such a small market and so many developers want make games. So I could see why game developers might want to. Although it might be easier to just switch to a more profitable market like databases, since the real problem is a surplus of developers willing to take abuse to work in games.
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It's About Power & Developers Will Lose It (Score:2)
It's all about power.
Our notions of right and wrong tend to adapt to fit our notions of what we want.
Someday, users will use software to create the software they want. When that happens, 95 percent of software developers will be redundant and they will belatedly learn that unions multiply their individual power.
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Someday, users will use software to create the software they want.
I'll believe that when I see it. People have been saying the same thing for over 20 years, that some kind of automated code generation or "expert system" would make programmers obsolete. Still hasn't happened.
Of course things will change once we have full-fledged sentient AI, but that changes everything – virtually all human workers become obsolete, and capitalism no longer functions.
union apprenticeship and hireing halls needed TECH (Score:2)
CS is collgle is very hit or miss and lot's of trades schools people get passed over even when they don't have the skills gaps. Also tech needs apprenticeships as well.
And an hiring hall system can be much better then all the clue less staffing firms.
Unions - viewed as evil but... (Score:4, Informative)
My fellow slashdotters keep forgetting that Doctors, Lawyers, Writers (in Hollywood) and Actors are all members of unions as well. The Bar, the Medical Association, the Screen Actor's Guild - all are unions no matter the name given. There is a way to make it work so that it benefits all involved - but then again we as techies have no problems when the networks are good enough to where once something is plugged in an engineer in the Philippines can take care of the rest of it...
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Lobbyists fight for the rights of companies.
Why shouldn't unions fight for the rights of employees?
'Cause God intended the haves to squeeze the have-nots. It's wicked for the have-nots to resist the natural order of things.