Man In Tesla Model S Fire Explains What Happened 526
An anonymous reader writes "The three recent Tesla fires have raised concerns with a lot of people. One person who isn't concerned, however, is Juris Shibayama, the man whose model S burned in Tennessee. He says: 'I would buy another one in a heartbeat.' From the article: 'Shibayama said that he struck a three-pronged trailer hitch in the middle lane of the interstate. He continued: "About 30-45 seconds later, there was a warning on the dashboard display saying, 'Car needs service. Car may not restart.' I continued to drive, hoping to get home. About one minute later, the message on the dashboard display read, 'Please pull over safely. Car is shutting down.'" He said he had time to remove his possessions, even though, he said: "About 5-10 seconds after getting out of the car, smoke started to come from the front underbody of the car."'"
They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Funny)
... to include "Car is about to burst into flame"
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On a more serious note: the fact that my car bursts into flames would not be a big consideration whether or not I'll buy the same make and model again. I know it's an unlikely event to happen again. It still is an issue that needs to be investigated though. On average, 1 in 150,000 cars in the US catch fire while in traffic. For Tesla it now stands on 1 in 6,300.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Insightful)
It sounds like he continued to drive the vehicle after the system warned him not to, though. So I would say this is user error in continuing to drive the car. (Presumably what he hit punctured part of the battery?)
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also the GP has a point, all kinds of cars do burst into flames every now and then, in 35 years of driving I've seen it happen 3 times. Once to myself in a Datsun on the freeway, my brother-in-law's ford while it was parked in the driveway, both of those were oil fires. The third incident was a mate's prime mover, a large spanner came loose and fell on the battery shorting out the terminals. All three incidents happened in the 80's. The fact that the car was damaged means all bets are off, but it also means that the manufacturer will get feedback on the incident and suggestions on how to fix it. If they don't listen then often they will be "forced" to do so by legislation that could see a lead engineer jailed for manslaughter.
Western governments are almost single-handedly responsible for the massive improvement in both car and road safety over the last 40yrs, free market competition has worked out how to put those legal requirements into a car without it looking like a 1970's Volvo. If road/car safety was left to the "invisible hand" then people would still be driving around with "DIY LPG conversions" - An 80kg LPG cylinder strapped to the roof racks of station wagons, like a torpedo waiting to be launched in the event of a frontal collision.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Free market competition has worked out how to put those legal requirements into a car without it looking like a 1970's Volvo.
I beg your pardon? You mean like this? [volvo1800pictures.com]
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Pretty sure he means the other [wikipedia.org] Volvos [wikipedia.org].
But I bet you knew that.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Funny)
The Tesla needs a "Eject Core" for the battery so that the car can be saved. And yes... minimum safe distance.
Unfortunately from the pictures I'm seeing, the battery is literately the entire underside of the car and is unlikely to be ejectable since ti would just drag the battery along the road.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The car said it needed servicing and "may not restart", if it were me I'd probably keep driving too.
Only if that warning came up by itself, but this guy had just hit a serious chunk of iron in the road. I would have stopped straight away, even without the warning. Yet he carried on even after a warning as well.
The guy is an idiot. And we are expected us to listen to him giving advice on the subject of car purchases?
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This is typical of rich people. Most are pretty darn stupid.
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Only if that warning came up by itself, but this guy had just hit a serious chunk of iron in the road. I would have stopped straight away, even without the warning. Yet he carried on even after a warning as well.
He probably expected there would be minor damage to some system.
There should probably be a sensor to detect the body of the car, and in particular, the battery stack being pierced; tied to a safety shutdown mechanism.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Interesting)
There is little to be done when you pierce a Lithium battery. It pretty much going to burn, if not explode.
The point is This will alert the driver that something is very very wrong, and they need to get themselves and their passengers out of the car, right now
It should light up driver and passenger side lamps that say "EMERGENCY STOP; BATTERY EXPLOSION HAZARD"
The thermal overrun of a lithium battery is slow enough, that meaningful warning can be given which can save lives.
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I don't consider it an idiotic reaction, assuming that he drove carefully after the impact. Pulling over is not without risks and the car nearly told him to continue driving. And considering the range of the Tesla, home was certainly not that far away.
When the car switched to a more alarming message he did pull over and left the car.
Maybe that it wasn't the best course of action but I think that is is reasonable for an emergency reaction (everything took less than 5 minutes).
And BTW, even if this guy is ind
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Informative)
If road/car safety was left to the "invisible hand" then people would still be driving around with "DIY LPG conversions"
If you had any idea how many DIY LPG conversions there are running around on the roads right now, you would apparently piss yourself. And besides conversions, it is hilariously common for people to do DIY propane systems on their diesels. Apparently it provides a power boost similar to a turbo, and propane is cheap these days so it's cheaper than using a turbo to burn more diesel. A grill tank goes in the bed or sometimes in a toolbox and gets connected with some more grill parts, like a grill regulator and nozzle. These systems are relatively trouble-free so long as they're installed such that the line isn't run someplace idiotic.
As well, you can get a propane conversion for pretty much anything carbureted for about $250, not counting the fancy tanks you have to have for road use.
I've run a 2.5 HP briggs and stratton four stroke by connecting a nipple to a camp stove (throwaway) cylinder and running a piece of 1/4 inch tubing into the carburetor. The nipple is based on a torch head that fell off, so there's a valve there. You can control motor speed by turning the valve, simple as that. The conversions use a vacuum-controlled valve, so the engine draws the fuel it needs and you control the butterfly in order to control the engine as normal. Anyone competent to turn a wrench can perform a conversion and again, there's currently significant cost savings in running propane. It's 2.50 per gallon-equivalent on one of the local reservations right now.
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I've run a 2.5 HP briggs and stratton four stroke by connecting a nipple to a camp stove
Kinky! Bet that hurt a lot though.
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If road/car safety was left to the "invisible hand" then people would still be driving around with "DIY LPG conversions" - An 80kg LPG cylinder strapped to the roof racks of station wagons, like a torpedo waiting to be launched in the event of a frontal collision.
Nonsense. People care about safety of their vehicles. A lot. The one thing that government regulators did that really made a difference was to establish safety testing protocols and mandate that they be applied. Vehicle safety has far outstripped the regulatory baseline requirements, because once reliable vehicle safety information was available it became a major selling point, which caused the invisible hand to get really serious about safety.
IMO, this illustrates the most effective form of government re
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Insightful)
> I would give some credit to Western Governments for fuel emissions, but not safety.
I think you should look a bit more at history - check out the federal governments requirements for air bags (and the auto industries initial response).
Also maybe look at the 3 point seat belt, most western governments have made it a mandatory feature.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, 1 in 6300 is a lot
That might be significant if it was statistically significant. One incident does not make it significant.
Now, if there were 10 in 63000, that would be significant, but one in 6300 is not.
In addition, this accident was not caused by a car malfunction, it was caused by an external event.
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In addition, this accident was not caused by a car malfunction, it was caused by an external event.
Except, these vehicles are being held to the high standard of --- will not explode or be dramatically less safe, after a minor accident, than an ordinary gasoline-fueled vehicle.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Informative)
Except, these vehicles are being held to the high standard of --- will not explode or be dramatically less safe, after a minor accident, than an ordinary gasoline-fueled vehicle.
Driving over a 3-way hitch at speed on the freeway and having it come up and strike the vehicle is not a minor accident. That could easily have damaged a suspension component or punctured a fuel tank in a gasoline vehicle. In an extreme case, it could bounce up on end (stranger things have happened, and I've even seen some of them) and the vehicle could sort of pole vault on it, with unpredictable consequences; it might end up stuck through a floorpan, or just put a massive dent in one. Nobody can possibly tell.
In the case of this accident, it appears that it did jump up on end, because it apparently punctured the big plate which protects the batteries. That takes enough force to take this well out of the range of "minor accident".
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, 1 in 6300 is a lot. We should develop safer battery systems for these cars.
Oh right let's see. The battery is protected by a thick steel plate that was punctured by ridiculously heavy road debris--you know, ramming into shit with your car is a bad idea. There was the one in Mexico that hit a concrete wall at 100mph and caught fire too. Don't know about contestant #3.
The battery compartment is thermally isolated from the car. There's firewalls.
The batteries have a dense thermoreactive foam around each cell. When the battery catches fire, every heat-damaged cell (primarily the burning ones) releases a thick insulative foam that prevents heat from damaging the other cells and causing a bigger fire. This also protects the passenger compartment.
So far they haven't EXPLODED INTO GIANT FIREBALLS.
How much safer do you want it?
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People say lots of things on the internet, does not mean it's true.
Inside the Tesla battery pack [teslamotorsclub.com]
The engineer who disassembed the pack (Ingineer) did not find any evidence of intumescent goo [teslamotorsclub.com].
And if you want to see what the pack looks like after a less severe incident with a trailer hitch, look here:
As a point of interest, here's the result of a tow hook impact on a MS that resulted in significant battery damage, but no fire. The battery had to be replaced. [teslamotorsclub.com]
Easy to see that the bottom of the pack is aluminum,
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Informative)
Initially I would think the fuel is more flammable than the batteries, but I have no research to support that.
The difference is that the batteries can ignite without an external heat source. As in the case mentioned, if the battery short-circuit for any reason, it can ignite. Fuel needs an external heat source to ignite. :-) ).
Liquid fuel is actually not easily ignited (do not believe what you see in movies
One other factor is how a fast a fire becomes dangerous. If the fuel ignites, you are in big trouble NOW. If the battery ignites, it is quite likely not immediately dangerous, as the flammable material does not spread.
Different energy stores, different risks.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Informative)
Liquid fuel is actually not easily ignited (do not believe what you see in movies :-) ).
No, believe what the mythbusters do... [discovery.com]
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Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Informative)
And yet the driver not only kept driving after the impact, but then (after the second warning) had time to pull over, collect his things and calmly get out.
And after the fire, which was easily put out, he recovered his other possessions from the car, which were all unburnt because not only did the fire never breach the passenger compartment, the heat from the fire never reached it. Theoretically, he could have sat in the car the whole time. I've only seen one vehicle fuel fire, and even though the fire dept was there in a few minutes, there was nothing left afterwards but bare metal.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, every ICE vehicle comes with one of those installed under the hood. Most conventional car fires happen at the engine, not the tank. Usually due to a ruptured fuel line or broken fuel filter. The fuel pump then happily keeps spraying fuel onto the fire until the engine finally dies.
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Would you think that a car with an ICE with 60 litres of highy flammable fuel is more or less prone to fire than a car with 60 kWh worth of LiPo batteries?
Yes. Lithium self-ignites when exposed to air, gasoline does not. Gasoline releases more energy once it is on fire, but it harder to make it catch on fire.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Modern coal plants also release less other pollutants (such as NOx, PAHs, PM2.5, etc) than the vehicle fleet, and other sources (gas, hydro, solar, nukes) are even better.
It also means that all your remaining emissions/pollution is located at the plant. [Except when they're on fire.] Upgrade or replace the plant and you've reduced or eliminated the emissions for every existing electric car, not just new ones. What upgrade could do that with ICE vehicles? Switching to unleaded or low-sulphur diesel were about the only things, everything further improvement (catalytic converters, better efficiency) requires changing vehicles each time. But one you've electrified the fleet, you can "upgrade them" as often as you want by changing their source of electricity.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Funny)
They should sample the "You have five minutes to reach minimum safe distance" ship's computer sound clip from Alien.
It would be more funny if you used this unique trait of the Tesla to scare other drivers. How about this? ... there was an interview in one of those car shows on Discovery Channel with a Ford owner who wrote: "Don't tailgate me, I explode on impact!" in large letters on the rear window of her Pinto.
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Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Funny)
But the final warning! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But the final warning! (Score:5, Funny)
I think the problem is that they couldn't guarantee the fire. It would look pretty bad if the car claimed to catch fire and just halted.
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"Please pull over safely and evacuate the vehicle immediately."
"Thank you for pressing the self-destruct button. This ship will self-destruct in 3 minutes"
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"This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then explode."
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:5, Informative)
On a more serious note, you should read the actual post and not just the couple sentences.
Here's probably the most revealing item in terms of how safe the car is:
The firemen arrived promptly and applied water to the flames. They were about to pry open the doors, so I pressed my key button and the handles presented and everything worked even though the front of the car was on fire. No flames ever reached the cabin, and nothing inside was damaged. I was even able to get my papers and pens out of the glove compartment.
So, guy runs over hitch in the road doing 70mph, it damages the car, the car tells him to pull over, and even though it no longer accelerates it still steers and works 100% normally. Car starts smoking a few minutes later, so he sits around and watches it burn until the fire deparment shows up, and even while it's on fire it still works and doesn't even get enough heat into the passenger area to melt the cheap plastic pen in his glove box.
If it wasn't $100k, I'd buy one tomorrow. Shit, we just had a guy in my town catch his truck on fire (leaky fuel line they think) and he pulled over, had 2nd degree burns by the time he got out of the cab, and watched his truck burn to the ground within minutes.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Funny)
All that, and not one fucking word from the Datsun during the whole ordeal.
Re:They should upgrade the warning ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Her father had been an engineer for Ford, and I think he was more heartbroken about the situation than she was.
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Model S needs food badly.
Model S is about to die.
Well... (Score:4, Funny)
At least it didn't bluescreen and lock him in the car.
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At least it didn't bluescreen and lock him in the car.
I'm waiting for a Tesla owner to name their car Christine [wikipedia.org] :)
Re:Well... (Score:4, Interesting)
Service with a Smile (Score:5, Funny)
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At least the car was upbeat and friendly about its impending doom!
Obligatory Spaceballs [youtube.com]
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Oh shit, it's Eddie's ancestor -- Genuine People Personalities are right around the bend! Kill it! Kill it with fi...whoops, too late for that reaction...
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I'd make him sing a little song.
"The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire
Step out of the car and let this m*****f***** burn
Burn m*****f***** burn"
Re:Service with a Smile (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd make him sing a little song.
Daisy, Daaaaiiiisssssyyyy....
is this a dupe article? (Score:5, Funny)
Or is he going to buy a third Tesla after his first two caught fire?
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2) Short Tesla stock.
3) Burn Tesla car.
4) ???
5) Profit!
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1) Buy Tesla Stock
2) Short Tesla Car
3) Car's on fire, there is no 3.
4) ???
5) Profit!
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Mod parent up - this same "proud Tesla owner" is not the third fire, probably the 2nd iirc. This guy had a spot on the front page right after the second fire, b/c it's "all good."
Let's get the facts:
- 3 of these have caught fire and have made headlines
- Cars catch on fire
- Trying to push headlines that make it look like Tesla is the good guy, which they really are - see above two points - only make it seem like the opposite: you don't have to massage a pubic that understands the two
Re:is this a dupe article? (Score:4, Funny)
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You're doing it wrong.
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All cars are deathtraps, just go and look at the figures ... most are caused by driver error (as this was)
It's only news because rather than the engine catching on fire as is usual in cars it was the batteries ...
Re: Low expectations (Score:5, Interesting)
I've know two people had trucks catch fire in the last year or so.... A Chevy Silverado and a Ford F150. You know what stupid things they did to cause this? One was parked in the driveway outside his house the other was being driven down the interstate.... Where's the relentless news coverage on these incidents? Even better is the response from the companies, for letters stating it was not their fault.
Re:They should sue (Score:5, Insightful)
Any debris impact severe enough to pierce the quarter-inch armor plate on the underside of the battery pack is more than enough to pierce an oil pan, transmission, fuel tank or floorboard of any other vehicle. That is a debilitating debris strike in any vehicle, not a "little tap." In any other vehicle this guy could have ended up with that trailer hitch piercing his leg instead.
That said, this is the second debris strike in as many months... maybe Tesla owners just aren't paying attention to the road?
=Smidge=
Re:Low expectations (Score:5, Insightful)
The man has some seriously low expectations of a car.
For better or worse, by the standards of 'devices with more than a thousand pounds of Li-ion batteries right underneath the operator', responding to a massive puncture wound with a series of error messages and a controlled shutdown is pretty damn polite...
This doesn't necessarily mean you want to be the lucky driver of one; but I'm impressed that the system held off the worst of the failure cascade long enough for him to make it out alive, rather than just burning him into a grease spot and some mixed oxides right then and there. (I had the pleasure of one of Sony's defective battery packs back in the day, and after having to toss it, and the attached computer, off my lap in a hurry, I've never taken the term 'laptop' quite as literally. Those things go pretty fast, once they start.)
So. (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation - when you get in a WRECK your car does odd things. I am happy this person came forward and said "had a wreckand the car even warned me to RUN!"
Good design tesla.
Re:So. (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah its not as if petrol/diesel cars ever catch fire...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/36467/FSGB_2011_to_12.pdf [www.gov.uk]
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120919132719/http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/894/FireStatisticsUnitedKingdom2003PDF1724Kb_id1124894.pdf [nationalarchives.gov.uk]
14,000 or so in the UK last year, which is a massive drop from the 28,800 in 1993 and those are just the accidental fires...
Newsflash: technology gets more reliable over time and the Tesla is still brand new compared to internal combustion that has had over 130 years of safety problems, development work and improvements. How often do you hear of mobile phones and laptops bursting into flames these days? For a while it seemed to be happening all the time...
Concert (Score:3, Insightful)
> One person who isn't concertinaed
Of course he wasn't concertinaed -- he ran over a hitch, he didn't biff a bridge abutment.
Re:Concert (Score:4, Funny)
He was very nearly bagpiped though.
Not concertinaed? (Score:2)
lp0 on fire (Score:4, Funny)
^ If ever a missed opportunity for an error message....
"three-pronged trailer hitch"? (Score:3, Interesting)
What exactly is a "three-pronged trailer hitch"? Google Images doesn't seem to have a clue, and it doesn't sound very functional. How does a trailer hitch with more than one "prong"/fulcrum do anything useful?
Re:"three-pronged trailer hitch"? (Score:5, Funny)
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Can you 3D-print one of those for me? Maybe I can visualize it then.
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Can you 3D-print one of those for me? Maybe I can visualize it then.
There is an example on this car [bugloaf.com].
Re:"three-pronged trailer hitch"? (Score:4, Informative)
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I'm a trailer hitch simpleton, I guess... how would the other two balls be used? Surely not all three at the same time?
Re:"three-pronged trailer hitch"? (Score:5, Funny)
Stupid idiot messages (Score:3, Insightful)
A pet peeve with cars is the stupid engine light that gives no clue what the problem is. I have no idea if it's some lower-priority thing like a polution sensor slightly out of spec or something where I need to stop immediately to avoid engine damage. (I know you can buy the code readers, but I don't carry one around in my car typically.)
So the Tesla, with all its sophistication, says 'Car needs service. Car may not restart.' WTF? They might as well replace it with an engine light to save money.
I do agree that 'Please pull over safely. Car is shutting down.' is a little better, but not much.
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Some cars flash their "check engine" light in specific sequences to indicate certain issues. So if it flashes, say, 3 long flashes followed by 4 short, you can look up the code "34" in the manual and get an idea of what the problem is. I know Mazda (used to?) do this.
Re:Stupid idiot messages (Score:5, Insightful)
Too much information can be a bad thing. You need to communicate these situations in a simple manner so that they don't distract the driver too much.
Re:Stupid idiot messages (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stupid idiot messages (Score:5, Insightful)
"'Car needs service. Car may not restart.' WTF? "
I'd say this is exactly the amount of detail that you need while driving. Really, what would be the added practical value of "Battery bank 7 temperature exceeded threshold level 1 based on mean power over last 15 minutes, click here to see a plot" for your decision to stop now, drive home, or drive directly to the service station?
I wouldn't be surprised if more details can be found somewhere under "advanced status" or something.
Re:Stupid idiot messages (Score:4, Informative)
The dash lamp system is actually quite simple.
RED dash lights mean DO NOT DRIVE without resolving
AMBER dash lights mean resolve when possible, but it's safe to continue driving
Re:Stupid idiot messages (Score:4, Informative)
NERD TIME! Since 1996 the only light that HAS to be there is the MIL, the malfunction indicator light, which tells you that your vehicle is suspected to be violating the federal test procedure emissions standards. The manufacturer may also implement a check engine light, which means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean. The MIL means that a mandatory monitor has failed, and that there is stored snapshot data.
The options list should have been a giveaway (Score:3, Funny)
-- Power windows
-- Power locks
-- Power seats
-- Air-conditioning
-- Automatic transmission
-- iPod dock
-- Quadrophonic smoke detectors
-- Asbestos seats
-- Sprinklers (interior/exterior)
-- Fire axe
Burnin' cars ... (Score:3)
I used to have a classic 60's Porsche 911. They put the carburetors directly above the coil and distributor...
We used to say, if the car wasn't on fire, you're probably out of gas...
Of course, that was still safer than the auxiliary heat -- which sprayed burning gas directly into the hot air flow into the cabin... ensuring when you died in a horrific conflagration, at least the carbon monoxide had already dulled the pain.
The MATH the Media (Score:5, Informative)
In any case, I was curious as to the numbers behind the recent Tesla vehicle fires and how that compares to the rest of the vehicles on the road.
So last year 21,500* Tesla vehicles where sold. To date there have been 3 fires. That makes 21500/3 equals roughly 1 fire out of 7167 vehicles. That looks pretty bad, wow. Tesla vehicles must be terrible. Right?
For comparison, there were 194,000** vehicle fires between 2008 to 2010 or to oversimplify things 97,000 per year. And in 2008 there were roughly 256 million*** vehicles on the road.
256000000/97000 equals about 1 fire out every 2639 roadable automobiles. Doh!
It appears that it is almost three times as likely that any random vehicle on the road will catch fire than any random Tesla. That bears repeating. You are just about 3 times safer from dying by fire in a Tesla.
And yet another sensationalist story that the media is getting wrong.
* http://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahelliott/2013/11/05/tesla-up-9-as-production-hinders-growth/ [forbes.com]
** http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v13i11.pdf [fema.gov]
***http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_11.html
Re:huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, cops would get rather annoyed if everyone called them just to tell them they hit something on the road way. He wasn't in an accident that involved another car and at the time he wasn't aware of how much damage had been done to his car. There was no reason to call the cops ever, only the fire department.
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In some states, you can't get your car fixed if the damage is over some arbitrary dollar amount without a police report.
I guess I figured the trailer hitch in question was attached to a vehicle of some kind. I guess we should take it to mean debris?
Re:huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes. Shit on the road.
All kinds of stuff happens and sometimes you don't have time or options to deal with it. So, it's a drive over and hope. Sucks, but there isn't too much we can do about the problem.
Here's a nice one:
It's a torrential rain kind of night. About 11:00 PM, on a rural highway, two lane, cars regularly passing in opposing lane. My brother in law was driving an old 70's Toyota Corolla. The engine in that thing was great, but the body was crapping out here and there. This was the mid 90's. Toyota has since beefed things up some, but their 70's era cars were awful thin in places. The Corolla was thin in the trunk.
This brother in law saw a few rust patches, but didn't think too much of it having driven some Chevy thing or other before. No worries. Well, he had a nice, big, heavy floor jack in the back of that Corolla because he lost the stock one. Besides, the floor jack could lift one end of the car in a pinch, which made tire rotation quicker. That, and a 4-way lug wrench, various cans of oil, etc... were all in this razor thin, rusted out trunk, just waiting to exit the car, which they did.
When it happened, he was moving about 60, nobody in front, headed to meet the rest of the family. Two or three vehicles were behind him, following close as people in my neck of the woods will often do. Out comes that jack. It probably weighed 25 pounds. He heard the clunk, and it actually wedged in a way that moved the rear of the car some, he saw sparks and then one of the lights behind him went out.
Now he's a dick, and just floored it. All he knows is that way too close tailgater got up close and very personal with that floor jack, and had to pull off the road. Some other cars in the other lane darted about and a few had pulled over that he could see in the rear mirror, while speeding away as quickly as he could.
When he arrived to tell the story, we opened the trunk, and he basically didn't have one anymore. All the stuff was gone, and the metal bits were bent this way and that along the edges. We think the trunk floor just dropped out and onto the road. The news featured the event and he worried about it for years. That jack took the first car right out! Bashed the drivers side light out, pierced the radiator, and ruined the drivers side tire before bouncing into traffic going the other direction where other fun 'n games proceeded to occur where it bounced into another one doing enough damage to the muffler and side panel to be ugly, and ended up pinned under a third where it ground to a stop.
Shit happens.
Probably that thing was not secured and just ended up on the road. So this guy is driving along, somebody changes lanes or something and there it is! He probably didn't have options. If he did, he would have not driven over it, unless it just dropped in such a way that left him no time.
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In this situation, your brother in law committed what was potentially multiple felonies and certainly was a negligent motor vehicle operator for failing to secure his cargo (which would include the floor jack and contents of the trunk). It could even be considered a hit and run accident in the way you've described.
Seriously, this sounds like one heartless bastard that really needs to rethink his personal ethics.
I do agree that some people who tailgate often get karmic justice in terms of shit happening to
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Where is the emergency in dialing 911 for road debris? I suppose I could dial directory assistance and call the business line for the local police agency (assuming I even know what jurisdiction I am in) and try to resolve the issue that way, and I guess that would be the logical thing to do.
Then again, if there is a huge hunk of metal sitting on a highway that urgently needs to be removed, like say this particular 30 lb. or 50 lb. tow hitch mentioned in the OP or saying "dispatch, I just dropped my car's j
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Re:Good Engineering Tesla (Score:5, Insightful)
These class of cars crash and burn all the time (some even split in two). Google if you don't believe me. Heck even other conventional cars crash and burn too- A friend's friends were burnt to death in a BMW after a crash - they were stuck and couldn't get out.
This Tesla model seems really safe in comparison. Maybe add some thermal sensors, have a "car about to burn" warning and we're good to go.
Re: Good Engineering Tesla (Score:4, Informative)
If Chevy Volts were bursting into flames, we'd be hearing about it. There's a whole swath of American politicians ready to pounce on anything negative regarding the Volt because, you know, Obama.
You mean like this earlier Slashdot Story [slashdot.org]? Or like this Volt [autoevolution.com] that burned down the owner's garage and house?
It just takes a little searching in your favorite search engine to find that it has happened to a Volt as well, and in fact was worse.
Re:Good Engineering Tesla (Score:4, Informative)
GM had sporadic issues with "saddle" fuel tanks mounted outboard of the frame rails of some of their pickup trucks. This got downplayed because Dateline couldn't properly reproduce the problems and ended up cheating to set them off, but the positioning got changed later.
Ford had several issues. Pintos had tanks mounted too-far aft, making them vulnerable to rear-end collisions. Ford also experimented with making the tank integral with the trunk floor, basically the trunk floor was also the top of the fuel tank itself, and collisions would rupture it. They further had problems with the Crown Victoria, when rear-ended with significant force, puncturing the tank.
All American automakers had trouble with tanks mounted with the fuel filler necks behind the license plates.
There have been incidents where debris on the road was kicked up so that it contacted the fuel tank underneath, rupturing it and causing a fire.
You are correct that Tesla needs to analyze why the batteries are being compromised from what should be survivable incidents, a car's batteries should be protected better to keep them from being damaged by even the most severe road debris. After all, a car could strike a concrete curb in a parking lot at high speed and high-center across it, or could be forced to take an evasive maneuver and strike something like a milemarker sign post and run that along under the car. These kinds of strikes shouldn't even particularly phase the car, let alone lead to its destruction.
Bad, Bad Strike (Score:5, Informative)
You are correct that Tesla needs to analyze why the batteries are being compromised from what should be survivable incidents, a car's batteries should be protected better to keep them from being damaged by even the most severe road debris.
Actually, the described scenario of striking a multi-headed trailer hitch is probably WORSE than all that you described. It must of acted like a huge caltrop. You can't design for 'everything' and keep the car light enough to be functional.
Concrete curb - Odds are at least one of the wheels are going to hit the curb as well, raising the vehicle and lowering the strike area, and standard ones probably don't stick up as high as the hitch did. Even if not, you likely have a deflecting implact, not a puncturing one.
Road sign - These are generally constructed of mild steel and aluminum, as the worst the post has to withstand is the weather on the sign. In an impact it's going to be forced down of course, but then the rest of the sign will act as a lifting/distributing force on the car.
Trailer hitch - Designed to be able to haul trailers weighing 5k pounds and up, the balls are solid hardened steel and the post is generally at least 1/2 inch thick, again of hardened steel. Given the described hitch was a multi-ball type, it's entirely possible/probable that the thing weighed more than the average stop sign/post(excepting concrete), much less a mile marker. It probably impacted the car in a armor-piercing fashion much like a pike against a calvary charge.
Re:Good Engineering Tesla (Score:4, Informative)
Gas tanks don't need 1/4" armor ... because they don't mount them where shit getting wedge under the car is going to penetrate them, neither should you.
Obviously you haven't looked under a car before. Most gas tanks are mounted under the rear seat and VERY exposed, having only a couple straps and..... a piece of sheet metal (for a heat and debris shield) to protect it. (tanks nowadays are mostly made of plastic as well, so the casing on a battery is probably stronger. the plastic is soft, and flexes, so that helps)
Re: Good Engineering Tesla (Score:4, Insightful)
What a know it all, arm chair commenter. Have you seen the overall model S safety and notice no one has any permanent injuries despite some crazy crashes? This is due to the regidity and strength of the skateboard battery.
You are quite good at using the word fuck, but that's all you know.
Re:Good Engineering Tesla (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, that's by design. If the battery pack catches fire, the fire is diverted AWAY from the passenger doors, so passengers may safely exit the vehicle. Unlike say, regular car fires which can flame up around and through the passenger cabin, potentially trapping the occupants.
The battery directs the fire to the front or the back of the vehicle and away from the sides. Sure there's less chance of your stuff int he frunk or trunk surviving, but you're still more likely to come out alive minus a few possessions.
It's also fairly well protected - besides the aluminum plate, the battery contains 16 sealed and isolated chambers that contain fire suppressant and coolant to keep one section from spreading into another.
The bigger question is three fires, and yet no passenger cabin intrusion of flame... a regular car on fire typically leaves nothing left of the passenger cabin.
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The driver has admitted to driving the car after an accident, ignoring all warnings until told that the car had a problem so big that it was going to stop ( on fire). I would be interested in seeing the insurance companies response this this...
Unless Team Insurance can send somebody out and prove that the battery pack would have avoided thermal cascade if the driver had immediately stopped the engine (and that doing so is the driver's responsibility, in response to those error codes, rather than Tesla's responsibility to have the battery shut down harder, earlier), it probably won't help them much.
Discharging a battery excessively quickly can start the fire (especially if one of the cells was dodgy); but once one gets going, it doesn't much ma