Why Your Phone Gets OTA Updates But Your Car Doesn't 305
New submitter kjbullis writes with this snippet from Technology Review: "When Toyota recalled over two million cars last week because of flaws with antilock braking systems and other problems, the fix was simple — a few software updates .The implementation of that fix is far from simple. Every one of those cars has to be taken into a dealership to have the new software installed, an expensive process that can take months. Cars that haven't been fixed could, in some cases, suddenly stall and crash. There is an alternative — the same sort of remote software updates used for PCs and smart phones. Indeed, one automaker, Tesla Motors, already provides what it calls 'over-the-air updates,' which allowed it to execute a recent software fix without requiring anybody to bring in their cars. But other automakers are dragging their feet, both because they're worried about security and because they might face resistance from dealers."
Umm safety? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Umm safety? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Which modern car do you think doesn't?
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The parent is +5 insightful and my post is trolling?
Most every car today comes with some form of remote data receive ability, from full on cellular data all the way down to lowly RDS.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:5, Informative)
Most cars today don't come with enabled cellular radios (or cellular radios at all for that matter). The luxury ones (like Tesla) do. The others, not so much. The subscriptions are expensive.
RDS? For transmitting what song is playing on FM stations? Hooking that up to do firmware updates on a car's computer sounds like a great idea!
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The mechanism to receive firmware patches doesn't need to be particularly fast nor does it need to bidirectional.
It's obvious that there's no link between *whatever* receivers new cars have (and how many of them have XM?) and the mechanism to deliver updates, so it's largely moot, but the idea that nearly all new cars don't have a device that receives data is absurd.
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*nearly all new cars don't have a device that receives data is absurd.*
nearly all new cars _globally_ lack such a mechanism for receiving data that could be feasible used for OTA updates.
sure, it would cost just 40 bucks per car to add the hardware necessary, but the cellular plan contracts etc would make it complicated for car manufacturers, so they only do it for luxury cars(which are friggin NOT "most" cars)
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Then why can I buy a Kindle with free 3G service?
Because Amazon made a deal with Sprint so they could sell books OTA.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well the hardware's cheap, and considering the miniscule data usage I'm pretty sure they could work out something with cell companies - the "phone" wouldn't even need to be on but for a few minutes a month. Wifi support would probably be even cheaper, if not quite as convenient.
I suspect security and inertia are a bigger issues - auto manufacturers have got to be aware of how atrocious their security is, but at present it needs physical access to attack - and if you've got physical access all safety bets are off anyway. I doubt any company wants their cars to be the first to to be used as Anonymous assassination tools, that's the sort of publicity that could decimate their business.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:4, Interesting)
I develop data loggers that use mobile data networks and it really isn't easy to set this kind of thing up. You need special hardware like automotive grade SIMs that can withstand extreme temperatures. Getting network support isn't either either because no one provider covers all areas, so a roaming SIM or multiple SIMs are needed. There are companies that can provide that capability but it isn't cheap, especially if someone takes a holiday abroad on a network you don't have a deal with.
I'd be interested to know how Tesla solved all these issues. The fact that their cars are high end helps, as I'm sure it wouldn't be a viable option on cheaper cars.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:5, Interesting)
Keep in mind that this isn't an application that needs great service. Your data rates do not have to be Netflix via high-speed broadband in every County. They just have to be quicker then driving the car to a dealership and waiting for the service tech to get around to setting shit up. For example, if you simply include an ethernet jack on the dashboard you've got a much better system then the one Toyota's using.
According to Wired:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2... [wired.com]
The Tesla can either use it's own 3G connection, or use your home WiFi.
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Many cars come with onstar capabilities. which means they have a phone in them.
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Many cars come with onstar capabilities. which means they have a phone in them.
... and it's a serious pain in the ass to disable. At least, in my truck it is (have to remove the gauge cluster to get to the module).
Re:Umm safety? (Score:4, Interesting)
Hmm, but, you have to weigh that risk (and okay, I'm assuming software updates won't occur while the car is moving) against the risk of not updating a vehicle. Yes it's a numbers game and their are vested interests both ways (e.g. I have a vested interest in your car getting a safety update).
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Did you weight the risk of a malicious attack on your car via its over-the-air update capability?
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I have a vested interest in your car getting a safety update
This statement sums up exactly what's wrong with society today, IMO.
Believe me, dude, that's a slope you don't want to go slipping down. Because I could respond with, "I have a vested interest in making sure my neighbors aren't cooking meth," implying that they (which implies all citizens) don't have a right to be free from unlawful search and seizure in their (our) own homes.
Manufacturer Interest (Score:3)
The *manufacturer* has a vested interest in making sure your car has a safety update--it's a bit different than just the neighbor's concern. Think about it. If you make a product that *will* kill a few hundred people over its lifetime unless you fix it, and only half of the owners will bring it in for an upgrade, wouldn't you rather be able to push the upgrade out?
An auto-upgrade is a major safety feature. Is there a security issue? Yes. But not an unsolvable one.
Every manufacturer will switch to auto-
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The *manufacturer* has a vested interest in making sure your car has a safety update...
That's adorable. The manufacturer has a vested interested if the recall/update costs exceed the projected liability costs from wrongful death/injury suits and/or negative publicity / shareholder response. /cynical
Every manufacturer will switch to auto-upgrades when the first one loses a massive tort case over failure to auto-upgrade.
That simply will not happen - or not in any of our lifetimes (which, of course, may be determined by the lack of auto-update...)
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If you make a product that *will* kill a few hundred people over its lifetime unless you fix it, and only half of the owners will bring it in for an upgrade, wouldn't you rather be able to push the upgrade out?
And where does that stop? Google took a similar attitude with Chrome, except that the updates they push don't distinguish between closing security vulnerabilities, adding functionality, changing the UI around, and breaking stuff because yet again they didn't test properly and pushed out an update that regressed something important. Chrome is now the most buggy software on my computer.
Cars are not toys. Shipping this kind of product with a bug that "*will* kill a few hundred people over its lifetime" is basi
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", "I have a vested interest in making sure my neighbors aren't cooking meth," "
You do.
" implying that they (which implies all citizens) don't have a right to be free from unlawful search and seizure in their (our) own homes."
it does not. It implies that under some circumstances you can take some action i.e. lawful investigation.
I do have a right to be sure vehicles have a minimum safety standard.
By your argument, I should be able to careen down the road at 100 miles an hour, drinking whisky and driving the
Re:Umm safety? (Score:4, Insightful)
This seems easy to fix. Most (all?) states have some sort of annual safety inspection requirement for keeping a car on the road. Generally these safety checks include connecting to the car computer’s diagnostic port to read emissions related information to ensure the car complies with the pollution requirements that applied to its model year.
Add as a requirement of those checks that plugging into the computer also checks software versions and compare that against a list of updates the respective manufacture has deemed critical for continued safety. A passing safety inspection requires that the car’s systems be up to date with all critical software updates.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:5, Funny)
Of course it does. Happened to me. Since my Nexus 4 updated to KitKat, I sometimes lose 3g signal. So there I was on the highway, trying to send a text, when, again, whatsapp refuses to send my message. I get frustrated, connect the phone to my laptop, fire up ADB and, lo and behold, the car crashes. It's ridiculous. I'm going to fucking sue Google.
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They'll just tell you that it's a software problem and that you should sue WhatsApp/Facebook.
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Obviously the update should not be applied while the car is turned on... car companies are not that stupid.
Updates always come at the wrong moment (Score:5, Funny)
Oh no, I need to get the hospital quick. "please wait while your car is being update... installing update 1 of 35... time remaing 1 h 16"
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Obviously the update should not be applied while the car is turned on... car companies are not that stupid.
Just so we're clear... you're saying that the companies that brought us such gems as the Corvair, Pinto, Daytona, Monza, et. al., aren't stupid? Or just not stupid enough to send OTA updates while the vehicle is in drive?
How would that work, anyway?
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YOU send the update and store it in memory. When the car is turned off, apply the patch.
Personally, I would also maintain a log of any period where the car is off for more then 2 hours and try to apply my patch then.
Or if they hire actual software engineers, it would install and as pointer were released it would start pointing to the new install.*
We do know how to do live patching of devices.
*yes, that was a VERY simple description and only used to make a point.
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Just because an update came over the phone doesn't mean it will crash your car. A bad dealer update could cause the same problem.
The main difference is the update mechanism may have a security flaw. But really, if your car can already get on line for any reason (traffic, directions, reservations, etc.) it already has a significant attack surface. This is just one more application that could let an attacker have his way with your vehicle.
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Considering how many people text while driving, it might PREVENT one!
I don't think I'd like an update to happen while I'm away from home, let alone moving. If I'm at home and the car fails on the installation update or to work afterwards I have my bike and public transportation options. When I was 400 miles from home and needed car repair I was stuck in a hotel for 3 days, the novelty, even of having a loner car, wore off pretty fast.
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Not really just to shop.
It gets you to the dealership, which the manufacture pays for time and materials.
The manufactures can't do this directly because they don't have a large network of sites to do the work at, because there is legislation that forces them to go through dealers.
Re:Umm safety? (Score:5, Interesting)
You give the car companies way too much credit.
They don't give a shit about our safety - that's why it has to be legislated and why they ALWAYS fight safety legislation. Always.
The updates are done at the dealership so while the software is being updated, you're walking around looking that the new models and it gives the salesperson to harass you.
It gets you to the dealership to shop.
When it comes to the intentions of business, cynism is always appropiate.
Strangely, the dealership/manufacturer model is rather adversarial, with dealerships lobbying (successfully) for control over who sells cars where, locking out the automakers from any attempt at selling directly to customers. The reason dealerships would balk at OTA software fixes is that they get a nice steady stream of revenue from the manufacturer by performing those recall updates. Its easy work: they plug the car in, double click, and collect $100 or more from the manufacturer. Who wouldn't want to run a shop that had guaranteed, easy to complete work that's always paid for on time? Time to lobby to make sure doing it any other way is illegal!
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They don't give a shit about our safety - that's why it has to be legislated and why they ALWAYS fight safety legislation. Always.
They fight a lot of it because it raises the price of their cars which in turn causes consumers to delay their purchases.
Let's imagine you could buy a car that was $2000 cheaper without airbags - Would people buy them?
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Let's imagine you could buy a car that was $2000 cheaper without airbags - Would people buy them?
No need to imagine. People did. And people still do. I bought plenty of cars that didn't have airbags or abs or stability control or seatbelt pretensioners or emergency brake assist or power steering,even (the horror!).
But nowadays, people do give serious thought to their safety, which is why even the base model crapbox has ABS and airbags. If I had a choice between a car advertised as "5 STAR crash rating" and
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Look at high end autos. Lane departure warnings, heads up displays, adaptive cruise control, cars that stop before you know there is an issue.
When people care about safety the car companies give it to them. Period. It just makes good business sense.
Call me paranoid... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Can't saw I'm a big fan of adding cellular or WiFi to a car for this purpose but, how hard would it be to "have an app for that" connect your phone via USB and wala you have control and choice. The app notifies you of an update, etc. Of course you'd also incur the liability for having not installed a software update that has been made available.
Granted no matter what method is chosen, there will be risks and issues. Pretty sure their is something better than what we are doing or not doing now.
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Pretty sure this could be done via the ODBII connector with the right kind of bluetooth dongle.
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Or better yet, why can't the manufacturer just email everybody a flash drive containing the update which they can then stick in the car's USB port at their leisure? No phone necessary, no possibility of wireless hacking, and the owner can apply the update at a time when it's convenient for them (avoiding the possibility of a bad update stranding somebody in the middle of a road trip or something).
Sure, the cost is probably higher than OTA updates, but it's lower than dealer updates and it maintains the manu
Re:Call me paranoid... (Score:5, Funny)
Or better yet, why can't the manufacturer just email everybody a flash drive
Channeling Morbo...
EMAIL DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!
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Or better yet, why can't the manufacturer just email everybody a flash drive
Channeling Morbo...
EMAIL DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!
Then fax it to them.
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Sorry, "snail-mail." Apparently I've been at work too long...
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1) Wait until USB updates for cars are the norm
2) Send USBs that infect the cars with viruses and then they will crash at predetermined time
3) Send blackmail notices that arrive when a certain number of cars throw themselves off the highway at high speed actives
4) Profit
Or
1) Wait until USB updates for cars are the norm
2) Put USB sticks in mail to rich people who's cars you want to boost
3) Wait until they plug it in and have the car unlock itself and then start up at a time you want to boost it, like
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Why not simply have that option in the car? This is all those fancy new cars with video displays, right? You just get an option that says, "There are updates available for this vehicle." Just like most software these days.
I wouldn't want this tied to smartphones, because many people do not have them. My next car will probably have some of these new 'features' , because you won't be able to buy a car without them. But I don't have a smart phone anymore, and I won't be getting one.
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And voila.
Yes, it's still bad to try to write a word you've only heard before. If you guess wrong, you tend to look amazingly stupid....
Second time in two weeks I've seen this particular error - what's with guessing the spelling of "voila" recently? Was it used in a movie?
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There are a large number of apps to learn French.
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In Soviet Russia, computer crashes you!
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Why would you want to make it possible for people to attack your car remotely?
Reboot at 70? (Score:2, Insightful)
Please wait while Windows restarts your......KER-BAM!
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That would be if the Windows Update team designed it, yes.
It would also idle for half an hour while the update installed.
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brick your car (Score:5, Insightful)
Although it doesn't happen as often these days, I do remember OTA updates bricking my phone in the past, and PCs under my care are still occasionally screwed up by "drive-by updates" in the middle of the night. For something like a car with the potential for property damage or stranding me and mine far from civilization, I'm pretty sure I don't want automatic OTA updates, even if they could arrange that the car not be moving during the time. I want to know exactly what problem the update is solving, the likelihood I will experience that problem, whether the update and backout procedures have been vetted, and the post-update test procedure. I make a living with my camera, and I don't blindly install firmware updates for it either.
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Given that most newer cars have some sort of LCD screen interface either for the HUD or the GPS/radio, it seems like it would be (relatively) trivial to run an update prompt through that, including either a short changelist or a reference number to look it up online. My bare minimum requirements would be some sort of screen to give feedback from an update, whether it failed, succeeded or gave some sort of error.
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And when it was coded just a hair wrong, and fails in a way that wipes your control subsystems, because of an unexpected register state, well, ooooooooooooooops.
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, because of an unexpected register state, well, ooooooooooooooops.
oooooooooooops indeed, that'll be at least 50 milliseconds while the system watchdog reboots into previous firmware version.
These are not the people that do your phone updates. These are people that deal with real-time embedded systems that are safety-criticial. There will be something like a hardware watchdog set that is used for the next 100 times of vehicle operation that triggers the 'fail safe' option of returning to the previous firmwa
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I seem to recall a couple of updates that got yanked after their initial release because they were bricking devices. The bug was fixed and they were re-released, but it still happens way too often.
I would suspect, thought, that a car would auto-download the update but only apply when the user accepts it. Even if you turn off the car, they can't start applying an update without alerting you that the update could take X minutes --- time that you wouldn't be able to use your car.
Tuesday updates (Score:5, Interesting)
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Dealers aren't any safer (Score:2)
How difficult would it be for any moderately skilled hacker to compromise those machines to side load along with the updates?
So the idea that the dealer is somehow safer, is purely insane.
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\So the idea that the dealer is somehow safer, is purely insane.
Not really. Where I get there is an attack vector there, it is a whole lot more indirect than just messing with the car. Are suggesting that somebody might try an attack that involves hacking into the dealer's diagnostic equipment to replace the firmware files with hacked ones so that the dealer will propagate said hack onto customer's cars to do some bad thing to somebody? Seems that there are a whole lot more convenient ways to go about this to me, so Yes, I feel safer having the dealer update my car's
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That's not my primary concern. My primary concern is bricking.
Dealer bricks my car, they already have it and can install a new ECU. I brick my car and it's a costly tow truck trip to the dealer.
Hmm... (Score:2)
- because your phone comes with built-in wireless networking but your car doesn't?
- because your phone isn't a 4,000-pound hunk of metal and glass frequently moving at a hundred feet per second in public?
Just a couple thoughts...
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- Your phone only is intended to last about 2 years, manufactures don't support these devices beyond this time because you are expected to replace it. Cars are expected to have 5x that lifespan (if not more) and ARE supported.
- A malfunction in a critical system in a car can easily kill somebody and cause property damage, a malfunctioning phone just becomes a useless object (i.e. a brick) when the firmware update gets scrambled.
- Cars are "critical infrastructure" for most pe
The 80s... (Score:2)
- because your phone comes with built-in wireless networking but your car doesn't?
- because your phone isn't a 4,000-pound hunk of metal and glass frequently moving at a hundred feet per second in public?
Just a couple thoughts...
Remember when mobile phones were the size of a suitcase?
Toyota recall ? (Score:2)
I have a Toyota, it's traction control and all associated assists are acting crazy under certain circumstances (Check Engine light on due to stupid sensor in exhaust pipe + wet road) but i wasn't notified of any recall.
Could this be just for cars that are still under warranty ?
If that's the case, from where i can download the updated firmware and how do i install-it ?
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Toyotas generally disable the traction control when there is a check engine light. You need to get a code reader to read out the error from your car so you can fix the problem which you seem to describe as a bad O2 sensor. A software update will NOT help you. You have a hardware problem.
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You don't, or at least you will be better off going to the dealer.
Doing the firmware updates to your car yourself IS possible, but usually this involves buying the necessary tools and software from the manufacturer or a third party who has reverse engineered the tools. I can tell you that all these tools are pretty expensive and unless you are able to spread the cost out over a fleet of cars it's going to be cheaper to let the dealer do it.
For example, I was trying to get additional keys made for my Hond
OTA creates the wrong incentives (Score:4, Insightful)
Having OTA capability encourages vendors to push out incomplete/buggy firmware ("we can always fix it later") and to push out updates without properly testing them ("if it breaks something, we'll just fix it and re-send"). Suffice to say we definitely do not need these kind of perverse incentives on cars.
And that's without even getting into the trouble that a malicious user could potentially cause if they managed to hack the OTA process and sent out spoofed updates to vehicles...
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If you apply an update to a customers car and that causes them to crash and burn half their face off, you can bet you'll get sued.
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Rebooting (Score:4, Insightful)
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Actually, come to think of it, that might work already...
Calls (Score:2)
Tech Support: Hello, this is tech support, how may I help you.
Customer: Yes, I'm trying to install this update on my car and it's not working.
Tech Support: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
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You forgot the following:
Tech Support: Can you please supply your VIN so I can cross check your support level...
Customer: Oh yes, let me read that off the door it's...... (customer reads and confirms the VIN)
Tech Support: Thank you for your VIN, I will verify your support level now..
Customer: Uh, Ok, but my car is broken and I got to get it fixed before the day care closes... How long will this take.
Tech Support: It shouldn't take too long, but our computers have been rather slow today.
Tech Suppo
Priorities (Score:2)
Bricked phone: A pain in the ass.
Bricked car: A major pain in the ass.
Car that suddenly decides to brake (or not to) for no reason: A deadly accident waiting to happen.
Besides, it took the dealership several hours to get my car's systems to accept a (official) retrofitted parking sensor kit. Automotive engineers don't seem to value ease of use in their non-user-facing software features.
Security? (Score:2)
But other automakers are dragging their feet, both because they're worried about security and because they might face resistance from dealers.
Given that the level of security on OBD2 ports has been utter crap for about two decades now, I doubt the automakers' major concern is security. Even with well-publicized stories about car hacking, auto companies seem to persist in the belief that it will never be a major, widespread threat. It's probably dealer pushback that has them concerned - having a car dealership is a license to steal, and I imagine dealers are very resistant to any change that threatens their ability to charge $500 for 15 minutes' w
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It's not a question of the security on the OBD2 port. In most modern cars all the computers internally are networked together; so, the center console computer can actually talk to the PCM. It's theoretically possible to have any one of the computers push an update. My suspicion is that they're not allowing OTA updates to reduce risk.
Yes, I know anyone can buy an OBDII interface, I have one. Requiring a piece of "special" hardware to connect to the computer for updates both limits who can do it and req
Dealers pay to play (Score:2)
You have to remember Dealers pay to play and they have contracts with auto makers on what kinds of service they'll perform under warranty and that the manufacturers will always support their interests. It's expensive when an auto maker has to change things in the field but it's a revenue stream for dealerships who charge all of the labor hours + service fees right back to the manufacturers but it's symbiotic and they both milk the customer either coming or going.
Remember when Chrysler and GM went bankrup
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Yeah... all those new models built by the same company who built that piece of shit of yours that you need to keep getting fixed.
Responsibility for the upgrade itself (Score:2)
If it's OTA and my car gets bricked, is the manufacturer going to send a tow truck to my house and take it to be repaired? This would be a major unplanned inconvenience for me.
If i have to take it into the dealership anyhow, and it gets bricked, it's already there and in capable hands of being fixed. If I time the update with other maintenance like oil changes, then it's all done at the same time.
The Tesla model could work perfectly well, just like i've never had my home router brick when doing upgrades,
Do not want. (Score:2)
There are way too many issues that this can cause for me to ever want a car that can do this. Here's a few:
Hacking. What's to keep a system like this secure? What happens if some criminal organization for bribing owner to pay them to "unlock" your car? Or a crazy person or group from changing the firmware to lock the brakes when the car hits 50 mph? Or just some 9 year old kid from doing this for the hell of it. And any number of other possibilities.
What happens if the process is interrupted in the middle
A hybrid approach (Score:2)
I'd just as soon have a human accountable (Score:2)
When a mechanic makes a change to my car, that mechanic is quite legally responsible for the change. That includes some amount of testing. When automatic updates occur, the user has always been responsible for testing it.
There's a big huge enormous line between money/business/phone/convenience/toy and car/safety/life/injury/toy.
In any event, in any device, in any change, some human needs to be responsible for it. When it comes to my car, that someone can't just be me. When it comes to my sister, it can'
Already possible (Score:2)
There are already a number of manufacturers that allow updates to the on board computer using a USB drive. Ford allows you to update the My Touch system via a SD card. The onboard computer can also connect to the internet via a cell phone or satellite connection to retrieve data. Since the computers are all networked together in the car via CANBus, it is certainly conceivable that the PCM or ABS controller could be updated indirectly via a push from the "entertainment center" computer. They just have to
My HTC does not get OTA updates (Score:2)
Some 6 months after I bought it HTC decided to not produce any more updates - the bullshit excuse was that what I had was optimal. The reality was that they considered it end of life and so could not be bothered -- they got the money from the sale, so why bother ? Well: it will cost them since I won't buy another HTC.
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I was assume the same thing that happens when anything else loses connection during an update... it will either hold the download until it can complete or else will cancel it. I don't know of any device that patches itself while it's still downloading the update... storage is cheap enough that nothing should be doing that in this day and age... cache first, then install.
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Most ICE cars don't completely shut down either. It may not stay "awake" to the degree that Tesla does, but there's still power flowing. This is what saves your radio stations, among other things.
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Neither do modern gas vehicles - or have you never noticed the radiator fan running even with the car off? Fucking scary if it starts up unexpectedly when you're working nearby - there's a reason they tell you to unhook the battery before putting your fingers anywhere near the fan.
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The car manufacturers these days makes more money on aftermarket service programs than on selling the cars themselves.
That's one driving factor.
Another factor is that many modern cars today runs only CAN buses which are very slow, and they don't want to go Ethernet because it's seen as dangerous and unreliable. This means that an update of an ECU can take 30 minutes to download, and a modern car today have between 10 and 70 ECUs - this means that a major upgrade is time consuming, and the car can't be used
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How about firmware updates that a user can just download off the manufacturer's website, save on a USB stick, and insert it into a USB port somewhere on the dash? A little less convenient than OTA, but with lesser risks, and still a whole lot more convenient than going to the dealer's service department.
No, I don't see *any* possible ways to hack that update path. Not one thing comes to mind.
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Or mail out USB sticks the effected customers. Still has to be cheaper than paying a mechanic to do it.
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Warranty work via recalls are always free to the consumer, even if your car is out of it's warranty period. The only they could "pad" would be the bill to the company itself. Which would state "X warranty service" and then the head office would pay for the labor. Since you know, that's how it actually works.
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Tesla builds luxury cars for rich people. Putting in a cellular radio and paying the subscription fee to keep it active is trivial compared to the margin on the car.