FWD.us Wants More H-1B Visas, But 50% Go To Offshore Firms 325
theodp writes: "On the day the U.S. began accepting H-1B visa applications for FY2015, Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC stepped up its lobbying efforts for more tech visas even as ComputerWorld reported that the major share of H-1B visas go to offshore outsourcing firms that use visa holders to displace U.S. workers. 'The two largest H-1B users,' notes ComputerWorld, 'are Indian-based, Infosys, with 6,298 visas, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), with 6,258.' ComputerWorld adds that food and agricultural company Cargill is outsourcing IT jobs to TCS, including 300 in Minnesota, the home of Sen. Amy Klobuchar, sponsor of the I-Squared Act of 2013, which would allow H-1B visa caps to rise to 300,000 annually."
Because (Score:5, Insightful)
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Except when it applies to executive remuneration.
Re:Because (Score:5, Funny)
Wrong. When it applies to executive remuneration they REALLY don't understand why you pay for talent.
Otherwise, the problem would eventually solve itself.
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A good amount of management salary is based on performence/ percentage of profits and stock options. This is what drives long term incompetance and low salaries because the more profit, the more the bonuses as well as higher stock value.
There really isn't a good way to apply this to all employees ecept in mabufacturing were a piece count can be had. That introduces its own issues.
So no, talent in management will only perpetuate the problem not solve itself.
Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
A good amount of management salary is based on performence/ percentage of profits and stock options
That has been blatently untrue for years as boards practice "repricing" and back-dating of these ostensible stock options http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2007/1007/perspectives/p6.htm [nysscpa.org]
Those practices of making stock options into can't-lose forms of compensation haved moved them squarely out of the category of "pay for performance".
Most "executives" are morons (Score:2, Insightful)
I am an American, but I was not born inside America. I am a naturalized American - so I think I might have something to add to this H1-B debate.
First of all, the entire H1-B scheme is ludicrous but it was a necessity, because the immigration system for America is totally fucked up.
What America needs (and what the world needs) are talents, *REAL* talents, but the American immigration laws have been fucked up, thanks to the liberals.
Now, as I have already mentioned, I am a *NATURALIZED* American citizen - whi
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because the immigration system for America is totally fucked up.
Would you mind elaborating in which ways you think it's fucked up? Seriously, you didn't make it clear and I would like to know your opinion on this.
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He wasn't totally clear about it, but he pointed to several big problems:
1) the policy that one immigrant can bring in his entire extended family
2) policies that allow immigrants to come in and then get welfare benefits instead of contributing to the system
3) policies which don't seem to favor immigrants with talent whatsoever
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There are already illegal or undocumented workers living and working here. So the point is there are already part of our community. Making them legal residents changes nothing. But depriving Americans of jobs, e.g., engineering jobs, by importing H1B Visa workers causes unemployment, and is detrimental to our economy.
Re:Most "executives" are morons (Score:5, Insightful)
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And none of those ppl are required to speak english or have marketable skills.
Instead, we need to limit it to the immediate family of the person that is working. In addition,
Re:Most "executives" are morons (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, a political bigot. Thanks for putting that up front and saving me the effort of reading any more. Next you'll be telling us how Obama caused your erectile dysfunction.
Which is a shame, because his post was spot on. We used to import the best and brightest, and now we import whoever has a pulse and is willing to do the job for 20% less money.
The people that we used to import had PhDs, and had knowledge that was rare in the workforce. Now, we import people who do grunt work for which any number of unemployed Americans have the skill and knowledge to do.
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Talent is only needed for some jobs. For most jobs, an indentured servant who does what he's told (or else!) is much preferable to some free citizen who asks questions and wants the occasional raise. Ideally, they want full-on slaves--who they don't have to pay at all and can beat at will. But those are still illegal (for now).
Re:Because (Score:5, Interesting)
They can start with the CEO's, who are the most globally uncompetitive. Typical American CEO of a large company makes about 400x the average compensation of employees. In the UK it's 45x, and in the rest of the developed world is 10x-20x. Forget about India - just go to Canada and get a CEO for about 5% the cost of a US one. Similar culture, short travel, little time zone difference ... what's not to like?
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You say that like you don't believe it. Well it is true. Except you have to understand that your work has to creath value in order to accumulate wealth. Doing eveything twice because you screwed up the first time usually doesn't make you lots of money but you sure would be working hard. Now doing everything twice as fast and correctly will if your salary is not locked by a contract or union.
Sometimes you have to change jobs to see the money too. A whopper flopper is going to ve limited in tge amount of pay
Re:Because (Score:5, Insightful)
"I'm not fox news but you can believe me. If you work hard and create value, you can make a lot of money"
Scientists work hard and create a lot of value and generally do not make a lot of money.
Many good teachers work hard and create a lot of value, but do not make a lot of money.
Many engineers work hard and create a lot of value, but do not make a lot of money.
Many paramedics work hard and create a lot of value, but do not make a lot of money
Many truck drivers work hard and create a lot of value, but do not make a lot of money
Many people who put family ahead of working hard create value and do not make a lot of money.
If you think a person's value to society is directly tied to the amount of money they make, then you need to go soak your head.
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Nope. You can be the most both highly-paid and productive "worker" in the history of the world and you'll never become wealthy. The only way to become wealthy is to control the production of others in a scalable way, and skim profit off the top. In other words, you have to own a business or businesses or profit-generating property, either actively (as an entrepreneur or real-estate investor) or passively (as an in
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Then it is time to get another job.
I have made $14 an hour before rolling buritos fresh out of school. This was back in fhe 90s shortly after minimum wage went to $5.35 an hour. I was originally highed in at $5.00 an hour which was about 30 cents higher than the then minimum wage. You don't need to be promoted out of your job posistion, just get fair raises based on the extra work you do.
Of course that requires you to not have your salary locked by contract.
It used to be that people tried to better themselv
Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:4, Interesting)
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I'm not at all sure I understand the purpose of tech visas, but if the problem they're supposed to solve is that there aren't enough tech workers to fill the available jobs, then surely the upshot is the same either way? The visas issued to Infosys may be used to displace existing US tech workers, but those displaced workers are then available for Facebook to hire.
Where are the opportunities for recent graduates then?
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It's not about headcount, it's about costs. US workers won't work for the low wages that the offshore outsourcing firms pay, unless they're very desperate.
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly correct. Plus, H1B visa holders are tied to the company that issues the visa. If they leave the company, they must return to their home country. Tech companies like Facebook like to have such indentured servants.
H1B visas serve only to drive down wages for US employees. Additionally, they end up training foreign talent that are later kicked out of the country (after 3 or 6 years, depending upon whether the visa is renewed). They don't help the nation's interests, nor the public's interest. They serve only to increase the profit margins of the large firms.
Get rid of the H1B, and increase the green card slots available to foreign workers, especially the Indians. I've very pro-immigrant, but the H1B visa only provides for indentured servitude.
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This is exactly correct. Plus, H1B visa holders are tied to the company that issues the visa. If they leave the company, they must return to their home country. Tech companies like Facebook like to have such indentured servants.
H1B visas serve only to drive down wages for US employees. Additionally, they end up training foreign talent that are later kicked out of the country (after 3 or 6 years, depending upon whether the visa is renewed). They don't help the nation's interests, nor the public's interest. They serve only to increase the profit margins of the large firms.
Get rid of the H1B, and increase the green card slots available to foreign workers, especially the Indians. I've very pro-immigrant, but the H1B visa only provides for indentured servitude.
I am seriously worried about the future of IT in the UK. A few years back we used to have half a dozen trainee graduate programmers a year. Now management outsources this work. The people who specify requirements, verify architecture, check for quality, etc are people who used to be trainee programmers a couple of decades ago. From what I have heard this is pretty typical for the industry. What will happen in a couple of decades time? Will we have to go to Indian companies for the whole system, specificatio
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Good thing you don't generalize. Would you prefer Irish H-1B's to Indian ones? It makes no difference to me.
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Uh, the Irish are British..
Uh...No, they are not.
Some are ..
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Depends on what you mean by "British"; do you mean it as a political designator or a geographic one? Ireland (both the island and the country) is part of "the British Isles" (though not "Great Britain", the larger of the two main Isles), so anyone who lives in any of the British Isles, including Ireland, could be called "British" based on this. However, these days, "British" usually seems to refer to citizens (or is it "subjects"?) of the United Kingdom, which includes all of the British Isles except for
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Not true. H1B visa holders can change employers. Even if laid-off, H1B visa holders have some time to find a new job before they must return to their home country. The real lock-in occurs to those people who apply for green cards.
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Which orifice did you pull that one out of? The visa is issued by the US government. If a H1B visa holder loses his or her job, he/she has some time (30 days, perhaps) to get another job before he or she must leave the USA. Furthermore, visa holders have some period of grace when transferring to a new job, during which
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
How do H1B visas drive down wages when it's vastly more expensive to hire an H1B than to hire a local? That's the part of the anti-H1B thing I just don't get.
There are some significant costs associated with hiring, however once they're hired you only have to pay them the prevailing wage for the industry. This sounds good, but 'the industry' can be interpreted very broadly, so when you're hiring someone to do realtime C programming they count as being in the same industry as a guy who dropped out of high school and writes PHP. They're also in a very weak position when it comes to bargaining, because if they lose their job they have a very short time to find another sponsor for their visa before they are deported.
If you want to avoid this, the solution is to offer a full work permit to anyone who has skills in one of the shortage industries, so they can go to the US and work at the real (i.e. defined by the market, not defined by some fixed spreadsheet) prevailing wage. Immigrants don't depress wages when they expect the same standard of living and have the same bargaining power as their native colleagues.
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:4, Insightful)
How do H1B visas drive down wages when it's vastly more expensive to hire an H1B than to hire a local?
It's not - how on earth did you get that idea? The rules say it's supposed to cost the same, but in practice the H1B worker is much cheaper for the vast majority of companies that use them.
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose you have a guy leading your Java dev team under the title "Java lead engineer". He is paid $100k pa. You want to cut this cost.
Here's how H1B's work: You decide there is a new role, "Key Java developer", you declare this has all the same skills but it's a "new" role. You declare that people doing this role (which you just invented) get paid $60k pa. Weirdly, no-one applies for a $100k pa job that only pays $60k pa. Damn, there is now a "skills shortage". The imaginary "skills shortage" means you can hire under H1B and pay $60k as you wished. An immigrant is glad to be paid $60k to do the job, and their visa is now legally under your control, so if they displease you then they aren't merely fired, they are thrown out of the country.
And that's how you replace a $100k pa salaried citizen with a $60k pa indentured servant.
At its best it's a nasty cynical way to hold down wage costs. At it's worst it's basically a milder modern day slavery.
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I think the problem is that there actually is already enough workers, the shortage is mostly myth caused by either requiremenrs that are not needed or location. More foreign workers are happy to relocate for mediocre pay than US workers.
This also tips the employment numbers in so that the wages can remain lower due to more workers that jobs. Low unemployment usually raises wages as employers need to attract and keep worker from a short supply. With more VISAs, instead of raising wages, they can import more
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of STEM workers to fill the available jobs; I think the last figures put a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of workers to roles. There just aren't enough available at the prices these companies want to pay. Hence offshoring: find a cheaper supply of labour elsewhere.
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What figures were those? Were they regional? All of the US? j/w
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Simple (Score:2)
If it was really about shortage then it would have gone away when layoffs added large numbers of experienced and skilled people to the pool of available employees.
Re:Isn't the upshot the same? (Score:4, Insightful)
The visas issued to Infosys may be used to displace existing US tech workers, but those displaced workers are then available for Facebook to hire.
No, because Infosys uses the H-1B's not just to replace American workers, but to facilitate offshoring. The H-1B's already know how the company works in India, fewer problems from language and cultural differences, etc. Most importantly, the Infosys H-1B's know that if they do a good job on their tour of duty here, they'll be rewarded when they return to India. The Indian Commerce Minister has publicly called the H-1B the "outsourcing visa".
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If you're going to screw... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:If you're going to screw... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are tiny country or have small population yes it makes sense to bring in talent. When you are the 21st century USA with a plenty big population to fill most roles and a University system that is still considered among the worlds best, no I don't think it makes much sense at all.
How do reconcile a pro-education social policy with labor and economic policies that are opposed to developing your own talent?
The idea the USA *needs* to import tech workers is pure farce. If anything USA needs to put much tighter controls around the use of foreign labor. We should treat labor like any other import, wages paid to foreign workers ought to be taxed heavily. So if a company really really does *need* to bring someone in they *can* but would be heavily discouraged from doing so in other cases. There should be payroll taxes on foreign workers working for US companies in foreign countries as well, although these should be a much lower rate.
Real Immigration on the other hand isn't a problem. If people want to come here, have families here, live here as residents and be citizens; great! Then they are our people, attracting good talent is an investment in our own country.
Its pretty rare that I advocate taxing anything, but imports are an exception, I think we should go back to funding the operation of government primarily through import tariffs and foreign labor should no exception.
Re:If you're going to screw... (Score:4, Insightful)
The unintended consequences of such a thing on Sugar and Steel completely fucked up both industries, manufacturing, and the health of your countries children. It's an axe to be wielded with care. Overprotection of an industry can lead to putting it on permanent life support, a slow decline, and malign effects on industries that depend upon them.
In case you haven't heard of these examples before, manufacturing moved to where steel was cheaper and expensive corn syrup ended up being cheaper that cane sugar.
There's other things that can go wrong with your suggested approach. Byzantium gave it a try up until 1204AD.
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You don't have to get overly specific. Today we have huge volumes of tarried schedules, rather than pick winners and loosers and try and prop up specific industries, I'd argue the tarried schedule should be limited to a few broad categories; commodities, hard goods, labor, and everything else. One tax rate for each category.
Never for specific products like sugar.
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You also seem to have missed that those tariffs I mentioned ended up costing money.
Re:If you're going to screw... (Score:5, Informative)
Australia adopted the idea as well, just like many other stupid ideas from the USA and not many good ones. Initially is was to fill the shortfall of doctors after we'd cut the numbers of doctors we were training (a lobby group thought scarcity would be a good way to drive up doctors incomes). Now it's even being used to employ cleaners as "skilled workers" that are supposed to be unavailable in the country. The reality is that mining companies and similar are just importing cheaper employees via such a rort whether there are people available to do the job or not. There are certainly large numbers of unemployed people who could do such a job in the areas where cleaners and other nonskilled or semi-skilled staff are employed on indentured servitude visas.
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a lobby group thought scarcity would be a good way to drive up doctors incomes
AMA = Australian Medical Association?
Note to non-Americans: the US AMA is the American Medical Association, which is a union with some peer review journals.
Not them actually (Score:2)
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it should make sense to at least offer it to American companies rather than foreign
Problem: there really is no such thing as an American company anymore. Also, why should I care whether IBM or Infosys executives and major stock holders get rich? Either way, I'm still out of a job.
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Isn't this how Free Trade works!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
When foreign goods are sold locally cheaper because the foreign government subsidises their farmers, the local farmers are hit hard. The same with finished /consumer goods, local industries get hit. The US keeps pushing developing countries to open up their markets so that US made goods can be sold cheap.
So may be its always a give-take relationship. Not that I support hordes of H1B displacing US folks, but its almost analogous to what happens in other areas caused by US companies.
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Free trade is about identifying and exploiting the potential energy of the system, in the process the imbalance is reduced and profits are made
What a clever metaphor. Is it supposed to mean something, or is it just a pathetic way to make your argument seem more scientific? To anybody who is dumb enough to buy it, it also has the propaganda effect of making it seem as inevitable as entropy, when in reality it's just the opposite - a matter of policies conceived by politically powerful people.
deal with it
Why?
You are also totally ignoring the gains in the 3rd world
Another myth comforting to free traders. There is no reason that China, for example, can't grow on the basis of internal consumption, just as the US did. I
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There are other approaches, but I assure you that one which doesn't enrich the wealthy will never be enacted.
Exactly. It is class warfare, and the wealthy class is winning.
H1-Bs are tied to a particular company. The visa holders get deported after a few weeks if they lose their job or quit. Why is that? So the company has leverage over them if they get uppity. It's just a scam to drive down wages, and drive up the profits of the already most profitable corporations in the history of the world. The stock market is booming and unemployment is high? Perfect! They claim "free trade!" but it has nothing to do with free
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Here is how to do it. Remove caps on H-1B labor.
However, every H-1B coming in will require a payroll tax to be paid that is the difference between the H-1B's salary and either an average salary for a professional in that field or the median US income, whichever is higher. That way, if a place hired someone for $20,000.00/year, the company will have to pay a tax of $31,017.00 at the minimum ($51010/year was the median income in 2012.)
If a company needs specialized labor, they can get it and it won't cost t
Ya know ... (Score:4, Insightful)
... Klobuchar is a Democrat. And these tech CEOs are noted "progressives".
It seems that they think that paying low wages is a great idea ... for them.
Other businesses, mind you, we have to mandate that they pay their employees more. And claim that this will have no effect on the bottom line.
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So what's your point?
That a politician is beholden to the corporations? No news there thanks to the conservative Supreme Court's decision in Citizen's United.
That corporations do everything they can to decrease costs and increase shareholder value? They are required by law to do this. It is their sole purpose for existence.
That a corporation that pays substandard wages has to be forced to pay a wage that allows their employees to survive? I think it is sad that they have to be forced to do that. They scream
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That a politician is beholden to the corporations? No news there thanks to the conservative Supreme Court's decision in Citizen's United.
Want to quit harping about that already. The H1B program existed long before that decision was handed down and it IS A FREE SPEECH issue. I don't think anyone should be barred using their property to promote a cause. Why should some Union be allowed to basically steer unlimited monies to a politician but a corporation not? It makes no sense. As far as campaign finance goes requirements should be for real disclosure, something we don't have today. That would make difference.
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Using the Government as a weapon against their competitors is what progressives do. We are fast approaching the establishment of the progressive ruling class, where if you're among the progressive elite, your company gets favorable treatment from government, and a slanted playing field.
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Follow the money.
I wish they'd at least make that harder to do. It's so easy to follow the money that it's insulting. Instead of a "let's try to hide it" approach it's a "fuck you, we don't care what you think".
Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who was on H1-B, it's a scam (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who worked on an H1-B visa about 10 years back in Silicon Valley, i can confirm that these visas are being misused by IT consulting companies. They take the majority of these visas and then use them as baits in india for IT professionals. Most indian IT companies are nothing but cheap labour shops. If there is a dearth of IT professionals, make H1-B non-employer specific. All it does is make you a bonded labourer for 4-6 years with your employer who promises to process your green card while paying you a low salary. This is a big scam and i hope enough people take notice so that something is done about it. Most people on H1-B won't speak about it cause they don't want to go back home or lose their job. This is what keeps it going.
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Thank you for being so honest about this. Seriously - absolutely no snark meant.
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As someone who is working on an H1B visa in Seattle, I didn't see anything like what you describe. I get paid as much as my American colleagues - more on average, in fact. My employer has sponsored my green card application, which I'm patiently waiting on (and why'd they do that if they just want an "indentured servant"?) No-one has ever directly threatened or even hinted at abusing their ability to complicate life for me as an H1B. I'm also not aware of anyone else being similarly abused.
Note, I'm not sayi
Prove its about talent (Score:4, Interesting)
If the claim is that there is a shortage of talent, then simply add a fee to the process, that is roughly equivalent to a years worth of college education in the state where the job is located, for every year the H1B worker works, into a scholarship program for that industry/disipline. Facebook should jump at the chance to make college more affordable for CS majors, since they seem to need so many of them. And hey, if the student can graduate without "mortgage level" loans, they can actually afford to work for less money.
You've got it all wrong. (Score:4, Interesting)
The US government is for sale, and the highest bidders get what they pay for. You buy enough legislation (and legislators) and you can make anything legal.
Want to make more money in the short run by gutting STEM employment and destroying US based intellectual capitial? No problem! (Just look at IBM).
Want to pay no US taxes while you plaster US flags on your equipment? You don't even have to make the flags in the US! (Caterpillar, a proud US giant.)
It really is equal opportunity at work. You don't even have to be a US company to buy what you want.
Stop whining, it's unpatriotic. You obviously don't love the US if you can't afford to buy you own slice of the American Dream. Tata Consultancy Services is clearly a much more important American Enterprise then any of the mere citizens who do useless things like live, vote and pay taxes in the US.
It's not like there is a "Government of the People, by the People and For the People" or any other nonsense like that.
Facebook (Score:2)
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Screw guillotines - I think the rich who feel they're so entitled should be made to live on a minimum wage income for the rest of their lives. It's less messy, and far more poetic justice.
agreed - Social Network Movie too soft (Score:2)
It's going to get much worse (Score:5, Insightful)
There are still good jobs for American tech workers, in America.
Just wait until we hit the next economic bump.
When wages really get depressed, Americans will stop studying for tech. Then US employers will point to the declining enrollment and scream that Americans are too stupid, and lazy, to study tech subject. The only answer will be to import more visa workers.
The more visa workers the US lets in, the more US workers will feel out of place in their own work environments. Then it will get easier to offshore tech jobs for even bigger savings. Then, due to technology transfer, foreign companies will take over - this is already happening in China.
If you think things are bad now, just wait for about ten years.
Get used to it (Score:2)
Everybody I hang with in Minnesota loves Klobuchar. She has that nerd girl with glasses look and does photo ops out bicycling with the family. Probably eats granola. Always AWOL on any serious issue where anybody might have a different view so she'd have to defend herself on a reelection, she's always present for the photo op when she brings some tax money back for a women's shelter or something. In other words, the definitional example of a pork barrel populist. My point being that people in Minnesota who
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The DMV in New Jersey was fine before Christie was elected. Since election he put through a series of budget cuts that have de-staffed the DMV to the point where you can count on long lines and excruciating service.
There is an interesting map regarding economic class mobility by state that I think is the ultimate reason why you don't want a Republican state government.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com... [usatoday.com]
The big lie is that Republicans want to encourage class mobility. The truth is that wherever they are in pow
Replace Congress with H-1Bs (Score:5, Insightful)
I bet they would come to every session, special investigation, ad-hoc committee and all have perfect attendance. They would probably do a MUCH BETTER job, since there would be little in-fighting, and they would not be indebted to some controlling political group.
Just a thought...
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I guess you have no knowledge of the Indian Parliament.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-... [bbc.com]
meanwhile... (Score:4, Insightful)
How about third-world salaries for management? (Score:3)
Wrong question (Score:2)
Ask not, "why are the lion's share of visa quotas going to offshore companies?" Ask, "why are there visa quotas?"
America's rise to become a great nation was driven by unlimited immigration. Let everybody in. Everybody.
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We don't have hundreds of millions of square miles of fertile undeveloped land any more. There just isn't a need for indiscriminate immigration any more.
The first immigration laws were passed in the 1870's, long before America achieved her current status as a superpower.
1) Temporary visa workers are not immigrants (Score:3)
2) India alone has 4X the US population, and China has 5X times the US population, and the US already has an unsustainable number of immigrants from Mexico. Clearly, we cannot let in everybody in the world who wants to live here.
3) US students, and workers, are going to eventually ask: "why bother studying tech, or working in tech, when there is no way to compete with 3rd world wages." When that happens, the US loses it's technology edge, and that will lead to an economic nose dive.
4) Other countries will l
And it affects non-americans too (Score:3)
The argument about local workers being displaced aside...its a slap in the face for foreign workers who can't get an H1B and are actually the original target audience for those visas.
I have friends who Canada with credentials up the wazoo, who have been working on TN1 visas for a bit, and want something more permanent. Those are 150-300k/year jobs (lead software engineers and architects) that aren't easy to fill outside of California.
And they have to hit the lottery like anyone else, and more likely than not they won't get their H1B...and so they have to stick with TN or looking for an american to marry =P
Not cool.
A modest proposal (Score:2)
Why doesn't Zuckerberg take what amounts to beer money for him and give out a few hundred full four-year scholarships for STEM programs to native-born Americans? He could take the interest alone (at 1%) for one year on his net worth and foot the bill for probably a thousand students.
There are already plenty of US STEM workers (Score:3)
That has been proved over, and over again.
Even if there were not enough US workers, all you would have to do is create good jobs, and you could be 100% certain that US workers would train for those jobs. No shortage of US students competing for med school.
Re:There are already plenty of US STEM workers (Score:4, Interesting)
So then why does Zuckerberg desperately want to hire foreign workers? If he really needs workers and can't find the skills he needs with US workers, then they aren't being trained in currently marketable skills (I believe that based on personal experience) and he should fund training for the skills he needs which would take less money and time than a four-year college program. If he needs workers but doesn't want to pay what Americans are willing to work for then he's no different than every other company that outsources to China or wherever and any claims of altruism are total B.S.
What does FWD.us stand for? (Score:2)
Facebook's Wealth Demands Unlimited Slaves
Re:Very bad... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Very bad... (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you seen http://www.h1bwage.com/ [h1bwage.com] ?
According to the site - "h1bwage.com is the online wage library for h1b prevailing wage determinations, and the disclosure databases for other programs."
So it's referencing the standard salaries for positions, and/or the H1B application statements of companies applying for the visas. It in no way reflects what the hired workers actually earn, and is not intended to. Salaries are always "negotiable".
I suspect that some of those figures are what the consulting firm is charging to place one of those working in another company - so the company is paying that amount for the person, but the consulting firm is taking a good portion of it off the top before they actually pay the worker.
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I wonder if this guy would qualify for an H1-B?
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As software continues to devour the world, every industry becomes dependent on tech workers to continue to operate. Allowing the active participation of software outsourcing firms in the US labour market via H1B's helps manage wage inflation within the sector.
Riiiight. Because wage inflation is such a huge problem in the US. Oh, wait, actually, the US has exactly the opposite problem [dailymail.co.uk].
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I think your CEO number is way off, which is why your specious argument fails. The myth of fair wages for CEOs is one of the problems with the conservative mantra. Free market ostriches stick their heads in the Fox News sand while the economy visibly deteriorates for the 99%.
Re:I don't *want* US workers (Score:5, Interesting)
I donate a LOT of money to FWD.us to try to get the H1-B limits increased. Why? Because while my company does do business in the US, I despise US workers - who are generally a bunch of self-important, entitled brats who think they are God's gift to development. The worst part? They are simply lazy. My God are Americans lazy. Show up at 8:45... leave at 4:15... hour and half lunch.. sitting around surfing the Internet all day while finding a few minutes here and there to do some work in between facebook posts.
And yet their output is still just as high in quantity and orders of magnitude higher in quality than anything that comes out of your 14-hour-day Bangalore sweatshop. I have to use 5 of those guys to do the work of 1 American developer, and it's still not a deal, because it has to be sent back 5 or 6 times for fixes just to reach the level of "barely acceptable".
You're still doing business in the US because there are still idiots that thing they're getting a deal. Boeing sure learned their lesson after their Dreamliner got grounded when the steaming pile of crap that HCL delivered was so bad they had to hire a whole new set of American developers to fix it. And yet, incredibly, after multiple failed projects like that which required total re-write to fix, HCL is somehow still getting work.
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Your nationalistic outrage is as predictable as it is steeped in false premise. Saying that the quality of work out of Asia is generally poor is a complete myth.
1 - Bangalore is not in Asia.
2 - Saying US workers are lazy goes far beyond myth into the realm of demonstrably blatant falsehood.
3 - "nationalistic outrage" has nothing to do with it. But dealing with cheap labor sold as talented but demonstrating below acceptable levels of competence, spending time fixing all this crap because management won't pay what actual skilled developers demand, while depressing my salary to the point that I'm taking on side jobs and working 12 hours a day to keep up with increasi